Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

Shoko_Lied · July 2013

Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by denshing
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by denshing
Ban them. I'm tolerant to other peoples beliefs/orientations, but leave it out of video games. People are already so damn sensitive about it in the real world, why bring that same issue to games?

I totally agree here. I'm amazingly tolerant, but I will not tolerate those queers being queers while playing the same game as I do. And their oppressive sensitivity! You can't barely say a word or twenty about some faggot having abhorent gay relationships with a trash mob instead of playing properly, as they start to oppress you by forcing the acceptance of their lifestyle on you through disclosing that they are homos!

I'm a tolerant guy, but it's just yuck, you know? I don't want to know that a half-naked beast warrior playing next to me may actually, so to say, covet my donkey, or my avatar's donkey, if you get my meaning, all the time while I'm innocently trying to force a female magician char to send me pics of her tits. I mean, being openly gay in my game is, obviously, not worse than Hitler. But it's pretty close!

You're making this sexual orientation exclusive. I'm speaking towards orientation and religious value. Why would anyone want want to listen to someone talk about which God they pray to, or how they have sex. I don't go up to people and talk about my orientation. Maybe if I say that I'm gay, it would change what people feel towards my view. Except that would only reinforce the double standard that society holds.

People can be whatever they want, but flaunting it like they would a new car isn't cool. Nice heavily exaggerated satire though. I'm sure it's accurate for some. Some people (me), just want to enjoy playing a video game with other people, no matter their race, sexuality, creed. I see people as what they are, PEOPLE. I think outside of the collective.

*sigh*

People flaunt their heterosexuality and machismo all the time. You just don't notice it, because you are accustomed. For example, I can say, logging off - "I have to go now, or my wife will not let me into bed". You won't have a second thought about it, right? But turn it around, as guy saying it about his husband - and here he is, forcing his homosexuality on you!

People want to talk sometimes, between game sessions, and people want to be themselves comfortable without thinking about offending someone - that's the whole point of exclusive groups: people, religious/gay/etc play together exactly so that they could speak freely between themselves without "flaunting" themselves at you. So that you could play in your own guild without being exposed to uncomfortable, for you, worldviews, orientations and people.

*shrug* as for religious people, it's much better for them to play in very exclusive groups. I always have something to say about things and religions, so you'd better not slip up in my presense, or nobody will ever heard the end of it!

That's, by the way, why I prefer my own exclusive group to play in. So that I would not be annoyed by idiotism of a common man and won't bite their freakin head off on a regular basis.

I don't think that's forcing unless the person is homophobic. Personally, I just don't like segregation of any kind. Then again, I'm all for just taking flack for whatever I think. I think there's a sensitivity barrier that could be broken if people of different orientations just casually acted themselves while making friends and interacting with people of other orientations.

I don't see how LGBT guilds helps spread the cause of creating equality. To me it looks like people are running away from adversity instead of really confronting stigma. By confronting stigma, I don't mean having a pride rally. I mean, really just living life the way people live life, interacting with others in horribly unaccepting world and finding those relationships that test conventional norms. I wouldn't mind at all having a gay friend, or a lesbian friend. That's just how I am. Except I only have one person I know at all how is gay because I don't get many opportunities to meet them as social barriers tend to push people apart.

Yeah I'm an idealist when it comes to this, because I know there has been change, although it's been more militant as of late.

Brabbit1987 · July 2013

Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by denshing
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay." That and having to hear "faggot" constantly is not something I enjoy. It happens more than you'd think. I've already dealt with stupid gamers in games telling me that I could like girls if I wanted to. Just read the blog article that I wrote on gamers and the social issues that are within games and then read the comments. Most of them are insulting and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw them because my article didn't just wholly focus on the issue of homophobic players within games yet that is what most people focused on in the comments.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Razeekster/062013/25241_Why-I-think-developers-gamers-are-some-of-the-worst-people-around

So yeah, I don't mind these types of guilds. They are there to make the unwelcome feel welcome.

That's too bad. Homophobia fuels the need to isolate yourself into a segmented community, and your need to segment yourself into an isolated community further creates a contrast between your orientation and their own, increasing awareness and fueling more intolerance.

It's a vicious cycle.

Hey, I know straight people that aren't homophobic in games too but for some odd reason I've found that more MMO gamers are homophobic than non-MMO players. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but it's one of the reasons why I ignore most of the straight population in online games. I just don't see the need to put myself through that sort of humiliation.

Actually, I have had the opposite experience, specifically in Mabinogi. Though, that was a long time ago. Don't play anymore. Also, I am transgender so it's a tad different I guess. I think I only ran into one person who really didn't agree with who I was, and essentially we just never spoke again. I also do not usually say anything regarding that I am transgender unless it is some how brought up or asked.

As for the people who disagree with me, I never really cared all that much anyway. I tend to respect their views as much as I possibly can. The only time I get offended is if they try and shove what they believe down my throat and do not let it go.

Attend4455 · July 2013

@the OP: if guilds abide by the game rules where is the problem in deciding whether they should be allowed?

Grahor · July 2013

I don't see how LGBT guilds helps spread the cause of creating equality. To me it looks like people are running away from adversity instead of really confronting stigma.

Ha. It's easy to say for those who enjoy confrontations. Like, for example, me. I'm ready to confront stigma anywhere anyhow anywhen etc, and not just confront, but tear it a new one and use that new one for my own satisfaction.

But normal people want just have a nice gaming session without the possibility that their completely normal behavior will suddenly cause the stinking wave of stigma to fall on their heads. If it happens time after time, it can seriously damage person's enjoyment of life, self-image, etc. So what's that confrontation is worth, compared to that?

Yeah I'm an idealist when it comes to this, because I know there has been change, although it's been more militant as of late.

The largest part of militancy of change is support of the group. If you are not alone, if you are surrounded by those who are like you, it's much easier to challenge conventional norms and standards, to meet stigma and confrontation and not get depressed by it. That's where groups come in, in gaming and in real life. Whatever you think, a man is a social animal, with the exception of sociopaths like me.

[Deleted User] · July 2013

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Nadia · July 2013

Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Brabbit1987

I have never seen this happen, unless the other person said something against them. I mean, for them to even know someone doesn't accept their lifestyle, that person would have had to say so.

Like a homosexual just doesn't go up to someone random and say they need to accept their views.

Gay pride parade.

Thats a metaphorical and literal "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it, even if it manages to mess up an entire section of a city for a day"

any annual parade is "disruptive"

example: St.Patricks Day parade

Attend4455 · July 2013

Originally posted by Fros7bite
Originally posted by Alders
Why are people's race, religious affiliation, and sexual orientation even issues anymore?

This guy gets it. The day it stops being talked about as an issue is the day it stops being an issue.

Agreed but even as a liberal lefty I would question why it's not possible to have a University Department of "White Studies" if it is acceptable and non-racist to have a Department of Black Studies?

Shoko_Lied · July 2013

Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by Adalwulff
If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

once again someone in the absolute majority, a majority which has systematically repressed a group of people for centuries thinks that the same rules apply to them. well they don't. heterophobic would imply the ability to ruin your life, cause you to lose your job, or insist that you cannot marry the person you love, it would include being verbally harrassed for holding hands in public, or at times even physically assaulted. name me the heteros with this experience and we might could talk.

Thats how equality works.

If someone can make an all black guild, an all female guild, an all LGBT guild etc, then someone can make an all white, male, straight guild.

saying that one group cant do it for any reason (even if that reason is that they are a majority) is still exclusion and bigotry.

exactly.

accepting everyone but the majority is not acceptance at all.

The "majority" gets about just as much flack as minorities. The pendulum swings both ways, so to speak. Personally, I don't like being the subject of people saying that I am an entitled asshat living with white privilege. It doesn't feel good being labeled just for existing. The same goes with other groups. Generalizations are the biggest social killers.

laserit · July 2013

Minorities are just as guilty of "Racism and Bigotry" as majorities.

My philosophy is "A$$holes come in all colors"

"Live and let live"

KBishop · July 2013

Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Brabbit1987

I have never seen this happen, unless the other person said something against them. I mean, for them to even know someone doesn't accept their lifestyle, that person would have had to say so.

Like a homosexual just doesn't go up to someone random and say they need to accept their views.

Gay pride parade.

Thats a metaphorical and literal "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it, even if it manages to mess up an entire section of a city for a day"

any annual parade is "disruptive"

example: St.Patricks Day parade

Lol that parade is always funny to me.

Yes any annual parade is disruptive, but the main point of it is that LGBT will make it a point to let you know they are LGBT even to the point of making a giant parade out of it. The whole 'disruptive' thing wasn't supposed to be focused in on xD

Brabbit1987 · July 2013

Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Brabbit1987

I have never seen this happen, unless the other person said something against them. I mean, for them to even know someone doesn't accept their lifestyle, that person would have had to say so.

Like a homosexual just doesn't go up to someone random and say they need to accept their views.

Gay pride parade.

Thats a metaphorical and literal "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it, even if it manages to mess up an entire section of a city for a day"

any annual parade is "disruptive"

example: St.Patricks Day parade

Lol that parade is always funny to me.

Yes any annual parade is disruptive, but the main point of it is that LGBT will make it a point to let you know they are LGBT even to the point of making a giant parade out of it. The whole 'disruptive' thing wasn't supposed to be focused in on xD

Riiiight ... however, I can sort of understand why the LGBT community ended up taking this stance. Not to long ago, being LGBT was highly looked at in a negative way (heck it still is today to some people), that it really caused a lot of grief in the community. I think the parade was a symbol to let others know that it is ok to be LGBT, and that is why it became a thing to come out on that day. Really it was just a stand for their own rights and to stop the hatred.

In all honesty, I really do not see a problem with it. If people accepted each other, it simply wouldn't exist. So really, whos fault is it?

KBishop · July 2013

Originally posted by Brabbit1987

Riiiight ... however, I can sort of understand why the LGBT community ended up taking this stance. Not to long ago, being LGBT was highly looked at in a negative way (heck it still is today to some people), that it really caused a lot of grief in the community. I think the parade was a symbol to let others know that it is ok to be LGBT, and that is why it became a thing to come out on that day. Really it was just a stand for their own rights and to stop the hatred.

In all honesty, I really do not see a problem with it. If people accepted each other, it simply wouldn't exist. So really, whos fault is it?

I can understand why they did too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on the LGBT community by any stretch, I feel the same way about the black community as well.

The only reason I see a problem with it is because the fall out of this mentality adversly affects me and other people from openly coming out. Because at the end of the day, when a gay or lesbian person asks why straight people treat us differently, it's ultimately because on many levels a large portion of us actually ACT differently. The problem isn't with the parade, the parade is a byproduct of another issue

Brabbit1987 · July 2013

Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Brabbit1987

Riiiight ... however, I can sort of understand why the LGBT community ended up taking this stance. Not to long ago, being LGBT was highly looked at in a negative way (heck it still is today to some people), that it really caused a lot of grief in the community. I think the parade was a symbol to let others know that it is ok to be LGBT, and that is why it became a thing to come out on that day. Really it was just a stand for their own rights and to stop the hatred.

In all honesty, I really do not see a problem with it. If people accepted each other, it simply wouldn't exist. So really, whos fault is it?

I can understand why they did too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on the LGBT community by any stretch, I feel the same way about the black community as well.

The only reason I see a problem with it is because the fall out of this mentality adversly affects me and other people from openly coming out. Because at the end of the day, when a gay or lesbian person asks why straight people treat us differently, it's ultimately because on many levels a large portion of us actually ACT differently. The problem isn't with the parade, the parade is a byproduct of another issue

Can't disagree with you on that.

DamonVile · July 2013

Originally posted by denshing
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay." That and having to hear "faggot" constantly is not something I enjoy. It happens more than you'd think. I've already dealt with stupid gamers in games telling me that I could like girls if I wanted to. Just read the blog article that I wrote on gamers and the social issues that are within games and then read the comments. Most of them are insulting and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw them because my article didn't just wholly focus on the issue of homophobic players within games yet that is what most people focused on in the comments.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Razeekster/062013/25241_Why-I-think-developers-gamers-are-some-of-the-worst-people-around

So yeah, I don't mind these types of guilds. They are there to make the unwelcome feel welcome.

That's too bad. Homophobia fuels the need to isolate yourself into a segmented community, and your need to segment yourself into an isolated community further creates a contrast between your orientation and their own, increasing awareness and fueling more intolerance.

It's a vicious cycle. I think you are missing out on meeting some people who are more accepting though. Which the interaction between you are them could cause more homophobic people to slowly adjust and open up in further acceptance. I think that would be a much stronger creation of acceptance in the world than simply protesting and calling out for equality.

I'm not a minority type in any way but I am an asshole irl. I've learned that I'd rather be around people who get me than constantly be listening to some guild officer tell me what I said offended someone. I don't play games to fight for a cause or to teach people to be more tollerant. I play to kill shit. This is why I can understand people who want to go find a group of like minded people....no matter what it is and just be yourself. Always having to deal with peoples issues and constantly having to either hide who you are or act a different way isn't why you play a game.

There's a time and a place to stand up and fight these types of battles but games are about fun.

Loktofeit · July 2013

Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

Icewhite · July 2013

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

That actually resulted in a change to the "official lyrics" of an existing musical.

West Side Story--"I feel pretty and witty and gay." (not any more, you don't).

One of the most bizarrely excessive bludgeonings with political correctness, ever.

laserit · July 2013

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

No kidding

Razeekster should look up the definition of "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

laserit · July 2013

Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

That actually resulted in a change to the "official lyrics" of an existing musical.

West Side Story--"I feel pretty and witty and gay." (not any more, you don't).

One of the most bizarrely excessive bludgeonings with political correctness, ever.

When at end of the Flintstones theme song, they sang "We'll have a gay ole time" I believe they were not singing about sexual orientation.

Funny how society will take a word and twist it into a new one.

spankybus · July 2013

Originally posted by Four0Six
I am fine with it.

As long as ALL of it is tolerated. If you get the LGBT, you get the Religious too, no picksies, no choosies.

Agreed....But you'd also have to let the Ku Klux Klan and the Neo Nazi's form their own themed guilds. As a previous poster suggested, perhaps its best to just leave the social issues at the door, so to speak, and just play the game.

This is a slippery slope. Of course, I am an American who believed in freedom....TRUE freedom...meaning that ALL groups have a right to express their views, not matter how much it might piss me off. I just don't want them doing it in a video game that I might be playing with my son.

Razeekster · July 2013

Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by denshing
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay." That and having to hear "faggot" constantly is not something I enjoy. It happens more than you'd think. I've already dealt with stupid gamers in games telling me that I could like girls if I wanted to. Just read the blog article that I wrote on gamers and the social issues that are within games and then read the comments. Most of them are insulting and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw them because my article didn't just wholly focus on the issue of homophobic players within games yet that is what most people focused on in the comments.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Razeekster/062013/25241_Why-I-think-developers-gamers-are-some-of-the-worst-people-around

So yeah, I don't mind these types of guilds. They are there to make the unwelcome feel welcome.

That's too bad. Homophobia fuels the need to isolate yourself into a segmented community, and your need to segment yourself into an isolated community further creates a contrast between your orientation and their own, increasing awareness and fueling more intolerance.

It's a vicious cycle.

Hey, I know straight people that aren't homophobic in games too but for some odd reason I've found that more MMO gamers are homophobic than non-MMO players. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but it's one of the reasons why I ignore most of the straight population in online games. I just don't see the need to put myself through that sort of humiliation.

Actually, I have had the opposite experience, specifically in Mabinogi. Though, that was a long time ago. Don't play anymore. Also, I am transgender so it's a tad different I guess. I think I only ran into one person who really didn't agree with who I was, and essentially we just never spoke again. I also do not usually say anything regarding that I am transgender unless it is some how brought up or asked.

As for the people who disagree with me, I never really cared all that much anyway. I tend to respect their views as much as I possibly can. The only time I get offended is if they try and shove what they believe down my throat and do not let it go.

Mabinogi is actually one of my favorite games because of this. I have been playing Mabinogi for about 4 years now. As immature as the community is in that game they are quite mature in that regard.

TheLizardbones · July 2013

Originally posted by spankybus
Originally posted by Four0Six I am fine with it. As long as ALL of it is tolerated. If you get the LGBT, you get the Religious too, no picksies, no choosies.
Agreed....But you'd also have to let the Ku Klux Klan and the Neo Nazi's form their own themed guilds. As a previous poster suggested, perhaps its best to just leave the social issues at the door, so to speak, and just play the game.

This is a slippery slope. Of course, I am an American who believed in freedom....TRUE freedom...meaning that ALL groups have a right to express their views, not matter how much it might piss me off. I just don't want them doing it in a video game that I might be playing with my son.

Well sure. So long as the other guilds didn't exclude members based on religion, or sexual orientation. I'm reasonably sure that a KKK guild or a Neo Nazi* guild wouldn't be capable of doing that. So no, you probably wouldn't have to allow a KKK or Neo Nazi guild. Not even to prove a point.

**

Keep in mind that MMORPG are private clubs, not public venues. Blizzard is under no obligation to allow LBGT guilds. They did it because their clientele wanted it.

Razeekster · July 2013

Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

No kidding

Razeekster should look up the definition of "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

Loktofeit · July 2013

Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

No kidding

Razeekster should look up the definition of "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

You probably would have understood had you looked up the definition of "dumb".

Have a great weekend, all!

TheLizardbones · July 2013

Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by laserit Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Razeekster As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

No kidding Razeekster should look up the definition of "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects. Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

This is kind of like the discussions on what the term "MMO" means. It didn't used to have a recognized meaning, now it does. It has a definition and everything. Words change meaning depending on how people use them. That's how it happens, people start using words in a different way, or start using new words, and other people pick them up and then that's what the words mean. There's a whole science devoted to how this happens in language and how long it takes for it to happen with specific words.

"Gay" happens to be a word that the younger among us have decided means, "lame" or "dumb". It's a general purpose term. Yes, it's dumb. No, it's not allowed in my house and I'm relieved that all our children have grown out of it, but that doesn't change the fact that in ten years it may be a common term meaning "lame" or "dumb".

I'm not sure what my point is here, other than words just change. Getting angry about it, even when the words are offensive, deliberately or not isn't really going to stop this from happening. Especially when the people changing the language have no idea what kind of history the words they use have.

Razeekster · July 2013

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

No kidding

Razeekster should look up the definition of "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

You probably would have understood had you looked up the definition of "dumb".

Have a great weekend, all!

"Dumb:

Adjective: (of a person) Unable to speak, most typically because of congenital deafness.

Verb: Simplify or reduce the intellectual content of something so as to make it accessible to a larger number of people.

Synonyms: mute - speechless - silent - voiceless - inarticulate"

I fail to see how this is a case of "Pot meet kettle." I never insulted anyone. I simply said that "gay" does not mean "dumb." Which is 100% true. So again, I don't see why I would have to apologize.

Howdy, Stranger!

Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

Comments