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Who wants camping back?

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  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

    UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

    I'm still waiting to hear why they were a bad design.. You can't use player grieving either, because all old vets know that GM's did not tolerate that and would ban a player in a second for doing exactly that.. it's why it was very rare to ever see someone do deliberate trains unless they plan on quitting.. 



    You were given reasons by several people. That you don't want to acknowledge them is a personal issue on your part and not anything we can fix for you.

    Please copy and paste me those reasons.. I failed to see ANY that were truthful and accurate..  Thank you

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Chieftan
    +10 for Vocadi

    Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?

    To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?

    No here one argued that was good design. Stay on topic, please.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Arclan Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
    UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

    To say trains are bad design is to say either:
    1. you don't want others to affect your gameplay
    2. you want a safety net where, if things go wrong, mass chaos does not ensue.

    Item 1 contradicts the idea of an MMO and item 2 is a bit carebear.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Originally posted by Arclan Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
    UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

     

    To say trains are bad design is to say either:
    1. you don't want others to affect your gameplay

    If I want others to affect my gameplay, I do PvP, and I don't resort to cheap tactics like trains which permit to grief others without them being able to fight you back.


    2. you want a safety net where, if things go wrong, mass chaos does not ensue.

    I don't see how mobs chasing you for ages bring anything to gameplay, except griefing opportunities and exploits involving zone borders.

    Item 1 contradicts the idea of an MMO and item 2 is a bit carebear.

    You have no idea. Remember, assumptions about people you don't know only achieve one thing... and we all know what it is.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

  • QuicksandQuicksand Aurora, COPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    I want EQ1 type camping bak, I hate running from quest hub to quest hub, following markers on the map from point to point just to try and level. I prefer fighting mobs to level, preferably at Orc Camp 1 !!!

     

    I def want camping back!

    www.90and9.net
    www.prophecymma.com

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    That's actually not true. You can level to max in e.g. Guild Wars 2 without ever talking to a single NPC. It's true you may (more often than never) complete an event inadvertently, but even then, you can just keep on grinding mobs since you don't have to go to a NPC for any reward.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    There's a dismaying amount of truth to that. :(

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    That's actually not true. You can level to max in e.g. Guild Wars 2 without ever talking to a single NPC.

    While the need to speak to an NPC for the reward isn't there, isn't it still the public/dynamic quests themselves that give you the experience to  level up? Leveling up just with mob XP in GW2 seems rather difficult, no? I haven't played in a while, so maybe they changed that, but the event XP seemed to be the big gain in that game.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Originally posted by Arclan Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
    UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

     

    To say trains are bad design is to say either:
    1. you don't want others to affect your gameplay
    2. you want a safety net where, if things go wrong, mass chaos does not ensue.

    Item 1 contradicts the idea of an MMO and item 2 is a bit carebear.

    1) Train is not the ONLY ways of others to affect your gameplay. I do not want others to pvp me, train me, spam me with guild invites .... that does not mean that i want zero interaction. For example, i like to trade on AH. It does not contradict the idea of MMO if i say i don't want to be train. In fact, MOST MMOs have no training.

    2) Yes .. carebear is not a bad thing. Just a preference. I want my challenges in pve encounter, not training by some other players. It is just a preference. However, since the market is providing that preference, it seems to be shared by many.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    There's a dismaying amount of truth to that. :(

    Nope. WOW is not all quest train. The most effective way to level up in WOW is instanced dungeons.

    And you can still camp in the open world. If few choose to do that, well, few likes camping.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    That's actually not true. You can level to max in e.g. Guild Wars 2 without ever talking to a single NPC.

    While the need to speak to an NPC for the reward isn't there, isn't it still the public/dynamic quests themselves that give you the experience to  level up? Leveling up just with mob XP in GW2 seems rather difficult, no? I haven't played in a while, so maybe they changed that, but the event XP seemed to be the big gain in that game.

    I've completed my previous post a bit while you were typing...

    My point is, you can go out, kill stuff, and be rewarded for it without having to talk to any NPC, and also without having to follow any "quest hub/train" ever. Hell, you can even go back to lower level areas if you want to and be rewarded according to your real level. And you can "camp" champion mobs, some people are doing it.

    Can't remember the last theme park that was giving you that much freedom when it comes to leveling options. Actually, I don't think there's another mainstream theme park MMO yet where you can efficiently get to max level without even leaving your starter area if you want to. That would be kinda boring, true, but ins't that what camping is all about... ;-)

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    That's actually not true. You can level to max in e.g. Guild Wars 2 without ever talking to a single NPC.

    While the need to speak to an NPC for the reward isn't there, isn't it still the public/dynamic quests themselves that give you the experience to  level up? Leveling up just with mob XP in GW2 seems rather difficult, no? I haven't played in a while, so maybe they changed that, but the event XP seemed to be the big gain in that game.

    I've completed my previous post a bit while you were typing...

    My point is, you can go out, kill stuff, and be rewarded for it without having to talk to any NPC, and also without having to follow any "quest hub/train" ever. Hell, you can even go back to lower level areas if you want to and be rewarded according to your real level. And you can "camp" champion mobs, some people are doing it.

    Can't remember the last theme park that was giving you that much freedom when it comes to leveling options.

    Hmm, good points. Now that I think about it, even with the dynamic events, my playstyle in GW2 was almost exclusively camp/farm clear up to 80.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
     

         I think I'll pass.. that sounds like one overpriced LOBBY game.. I don't like them on the Xbox, and don't think I'll like that in MMORPG's either..  I like an open world, not lobby games where everyone sits around in a city picking their nose waiting for a queue to fire..... OH BTW..  Every game that has dps with a LFD finder, still blows.. The wait times are horrible.. Let me guess.. Your answer to the 1 hour waits is "instant" dungeon regardless of size.. ??

    Don't worry .. there are plenty of others who are playing. I won't miss you.

    Many lobby games are much more fun than "true" MMOs to me. Plus, many MMOs are lobby games anyway.

    1 hour wait .. the answer is simple. Play something else.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    Actually Aion at launch(09') did expect players to repeatedly kill mobs in designated areas. Then everyone cried "Grind!" and the, quests were rolled in.

    In hindsight, neither method was better, was just not a very fun game. Camping mobs didn't make it any more social but the time to rest up was somewhat short. After having a lot of quests added the community was still the same (and now leaving en mass).

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    Actually Aion at launch(09') did expect players to repeatedly kill mobs in designated areas. Then everyone cried "Grind!" and the, quests were rolled in.

    In hindsight, neither method was better, was just not a very fun game. Camping mobs didn't make it any more social but the time to rest up was somewhat short. After having a lot of quests added the community was still the same (and now leaving en mass).


    Aion had the same problem than Tera, the quests seemed to be an afterthought, and actually indeed were. This resulted in boring, grindy, repetitive questing. It's definitely not those games I'd use if I had to defend a traditional quest based progression system (I would actually use vanilla WoW and vanilla LOTRO, before they became so linear and just as bad as Rift).

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

    UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

    The working definiton of Bad Design on mmorpg.com:

    Any part of the design of the Enemy Game™ not shared by My Game®.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    There's a dismaying amount of truth to that. :(

    Nope. WOW is not all quest train. The most effective way to level up in WOW is instanced dungeons.

    And you can still camp in the open world. If few choose to do that, well, few likes camping.

    It was all quest trains. The lfd did help get people to group again that was non raid. Of course most people rarely run more than 1 instance so it is queue all over again where as in camping, I could be there several hours, changing out people when they needed to leave. Also, later on, I ended up leveling faster questing than doing dungeons. Kind of depends on your class and how fast one would get an instance.

     

    Also camping is rarely done in the modern games not because people don't like camping, but because other paths offer better rewards, quicker experience. People say you can still camp, but really you can't. If I go to camp, it is usually a group I want, well people aren't going to group because questing is faster, or they're in a city waiting for a dungeon.

    Most games do grouping wrong these days. Back in EQ, daoc, there were group bonuses, camp bonuses. People were rewarded for grouping. I could solo np in EQ with several classes. It wasn't as forced group as some people make it out to be, just that grouping was a much better path.

    Other games split the exp, so spending the same time, or even longer sometimes to get less exp, people just aren't going to do, especially since it can take time to get a group together. People don't want to waste time building a group to take longer to get exp, so grouping and camping ends up getting killed.

    That leads into another problem where an end game requires grouping for raiding. With everyone soloing to endgame, so many don't know how to play their class in a group environment, so they kind of suck in raids, while they could have learned that if they grouped their way up. I was playing some WoW last year when I picked up panda for $10. Started fresh, using lfd for groups, and almost every time I played with someone that kind of sucked, it was their first time grouping, or are new to this because they've only been questing.

    That was what so frustrating about WoW when I played. It was a raid group based game at end game that promoted leveling and progression to endgame by solo play. SO many games do that these days, ugh.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Vynt

    and almost every time I played with someone that kind of sucked, it was their first time grouping, or are new to this because they've only been questing.

    "Everyone in a PuG sucks." "Except you, of course?"

     I know people like to believe that this phenomenon was new or uniquely created by WoW.

    It most certainly was not.  People complained (long and regularly) about the quality of PuGs every pre-Blizzard title that had them, too.

    Assumed Superiority almost requires it; not only does it blow off some steam after a particularly bad run, but if you tell everyone in the world how awful, bad, horrible all of those other players are, it works great as subtle posing. (Which is why it's so very popular, and always has been, with 'Hardcore' guys of any variety).

    It's one of the ways we wave our not-subtle "Hey World, I'm a Veteran, Srs Bznz!" placards on forums.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member

    Camping? No

    Fishing and horseback riding? Yes

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    That's actually not true. You can level to max in e.g. Guild Wars 2 without ever talking to a single NPC.

    While the need to speak to an NPC for the reward isn't there, isn't it still the public/dynamic quests themselves that give you the experience to  level up? Leveling up just with mob XP in GW2 seems rather difficult, no? I haven't played in a while, so maybe they changed that, but the event XP seemed to be the big gain in that game.

    YES.. most of the XP in GW2 comes from DE's and heart quest..  If you avoid doing the heart quest to unlock the NPC vendor, then you are just gimping yourself, which will make your Mob grinding all that much more difficult..  As much as GW2 is a step upgrade from running around doing ? quest hubs, It still keeps a lot of the problems as well..

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by free2play
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

    I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

    This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.

    There's a dismaying amount of truth to that. :(

    Nope. WOW is not all quest train. The most effective way to level up in WOW is instanced dungeons.

    And you can still camp in the open world. If few choose to do that, well, few likes camping.

    Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group..  Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others? 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
     

    Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group..  Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others? 

    Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.

    In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.

     

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    If I want others to affect my gameplay, I do PvP, and I don't resort to cheap tactics like trains which permit to grief others without them being able to fight you back.

    I never said intentional trains, as they were extremely rare. The point was, you can be affected by the mistakes of others, which adds to the virtual-world feel.



    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    I don't see how mobs chasing you for ages bring anything to gameplay, except griefing opportunities and exploits involving zone borders.


    I get that you don't get it.



    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    You have no idea. Remember, assumptions about people you don't know only achieve one thing... and we all know what it is.


    My opinion is not an assusmption.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    I never said intentional trains, as they were extremely rare. The point was, you can be affected by the mistakes of others, which adds to the virtual-world feel.

    Yes, i can but that does not mean i want to.

    Not every way of being affected by others is fun, nor desirable by everyone.

     

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