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Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    I must say I'm quite amused by the concept of kids being offended by talk about sexuality in a game where they spend their time killing innocent animals and other characters, not to mention many kids today know more curse words that their parents... even though I agree that this kind of chat should be kept private, aka restricted to your guild's chat if the guild permits it. Total strangers in public chat should not be forced to endure one's sex stories, not because they could be offended (I couldn't care less about that), but because this kind of discussion inevitably ends in the maturity level dropping to abysmal levels, accompanied by trolling, flaming and spamming that affects the ability to use the public chat for game matters.

    Public chat in a game is to talk about the game, not sex, politics, religion or any other real life stuff. There's a good reason why most games forbid that kind of chatting anyway.

     

    I also agree with the people saying that a LGBT guild (for instance) is just as much discrimination as an heterosexual guild would be. In the guild I'm leading, we aren't interested in your religion, politic views or sexual orientation. Actually, even though I know some of my guildies are married and some have kids, half of them could be homosexual buddists for all I know... and guess what? I don't care. What's important to me is that they are pleasant persons to play with, and part of being pleasant is to not force your "real life" views onto everyone else in the guild.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Four0Six

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    I really do not care what people do on their own or what they choose to believe in. It is when they feel the need to "advertise" their choices that can get under my skin. These are real world aspects that have no place in a fantasy world. I just want to say, "yay? good for you?"That being said, I can see how that "identification" can make things easier yet at the same time harder. People looking for like minded people have an easier time finding them. On the other hand, the small minded players have easily identifiable targets for their desperate hate.I can understand Blizzard's stance. It is not unlike MMORPG.com's stance on political and religious posting. It tends to fan the flames of board wars. It is sad that a "special interest group" dictated how a business was run. That is wrong.Just as MMOs are created to sell to the lowest common denominator (LCD), they also have to take into account what they allow for that same LCD to interact with.I guess I just do not understand what makes people want others to know about their sexual, political, or religious choices or preferences. It's a game. Leave that stuff at the log in screen.Remember, Guilds decide who they let in or not. No one should be able to tell Guilds who gets to become members. In one sense it is not unlike PvE, PvP, or RP guild tags. But that is geared more towards game play, not real world likes/dislikes.
    I could agree, except when was the last time you say a guild that didn't "require", VOIP? I know of 1 in Rift at launch, Silent Epidemic, founder was deaf.......But other than that it is required. Making the argument about "immersion" a moot point.Really all a LGBT guild wants is to not hear "fag" in VOIP. Just as the religious guild doesn't want to hear cussing. They both are trying  to avoid immature A-Holes that are going to stir up trouble in the guild. How about we stop being offended because some group we didn't want to be involved with in the first place doesn't want us? Besides, if you allow guilds to be so labeled, it frees up the Moderators to keep "hot-button" issues out of general.
    I understand that. It is like a guild for "mature" members wanting no kids involved so they don't have to watch what they say. It also helps players stay away from guilds they do not wish to get chummy with, for whatever reason.

    Truthfully, I do not get why players want to "play at" relationships in computer games. Straight or homosexual, it matters not to me. All of that is strange to me. I made myself do the Bastilla love thing in SW:KotOR 1 in order to turn her back. It was not fun at all for me. It was uncomfortable. So why does it matter what sexual orientation one is in a game?

    Same with religious Guilds. "We worship a God NOT in this game. Come join us!" May as well throw the lore right out with the bath water.

    Immersion is really non-existant in MMOs. Someone, somewhere will always talk about real world issues, happenings, or memes in global chat. Heck, many times in EQ when I'd be running through East Commonlands it was a rare time when Monty Python and the Holy Grail was not being repeated in /ooc chat.

    Immersion breakers are kind of like litter. It is everywhere. If everyone picked up 1 or 2 pieces it gets lesser and lesser. Just because it exists here and there does not mean it should happen everywhere, too, don't you think?

    I understand people want to game with like minded players. I am all for it. Just be aware of the other 1000s of players around you and what their reactions might be.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • GrumpyJesterGrumpyJester AmersfoortPosts: 96Member
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by immodium

    What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

    THIS, why the hell are people bringing their sexual orientation into games, not only is it completely immersion breaking to bring up political and sexual topics, KIDS play these games, keep your sexual desires OUT OF THE GAME and go talk about it on a forum that deals with sex

     

    Why on earth would this be about sex? LGBT could just as easily be explained in terms of who you love. Kids certainly don't need to be protected from this, there's nothing "mature" about it.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by CommoX
    Personally I believe guilds should be themed within the games atmosphere, there's a very broad spectrum to that, but by blocking yourself off into little chunks/groups your just hurting yourself and your group.Religion - Sure, All praise No'donn! A good number of people can get behind what No'donn is about.Sexual Orientation - Gundabar's Fabulously Ranged Rangers. Why not, Rangers, ranged weapons, the chance to be epically fabulous, hell, I'm down for lookin down right deadly on a scouting mission.It highly amuses me when people who don't want to be segregated, looked at as different or sorted into a specific category do it to themselves and then cry foul."Dear me, I've cordoned myself behind my differences and can't be bothered to look past them to see that we are all just people who might all enjoy a hobby together."Personal preference is just that, personal. If your friends/acquaintances can't see past that, it might be time to find some new ones.Everyone wants to be accepted, but they refuse to accept anyone else.Boggling
    I formed a guild in WoW with a buddy I met in WoW. It was an all Druid guild (meaning Night Elves only - Alliance) called Ninja Kitties. We actually had a great run (we had over 100 active players) until Cata came out and destroyed us with their guild perks needing varied classes and races to get. We also created another guild with no restrictions for our non-Druid characters. Eventually, the non-Druid guild absorbed the Druids.

    Your part about people labeling themselves is so on target. I am a human being. That is all anyone else needs to know about me.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by immodium
    i was going to mention children play games in regard to sexual orientation. After recently watching a UK show called the Big Questions and the topic being "Should pornography be taught in Schools?", why not have sex in games? If that sort of topic is being debated it just shows what kids today are facing in RL.
    Isn't that for parents to decide where and when? Or do parents no longer need to exist?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • LorskaLorska Portland, ORPosts: 74Member
    I think it's all fine as long as they treat outsiders with enough respect.  I want a guild where everyone must be at least IQ 130 and/or DD cup women, besides myself....
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    *deleted*

    Answered in a latter post

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    I thought the whole point is that people come from all walks of life to come together for a common cause. Even in this virtual domain we still think we need to hide away in small groups. 

    I can understand trying to find people with a similar mindset, it's like asking for mature players and not accepting people under 22. It's a choice the leaders must make when they create the guild. I can see a lot of ignorant people who might not be as open minded about the true face humanity.

    To me it's the same as if regular guilds discriminated against based on beliefs or race or a more reasonable and realistic reason is language. You want to get like minded people together and minimize the chances of picking up an asshole.

    In the end we have to ask the question, is excluding or including people for the good of the guild or just discrimination? A guild has many opinions and that's what makes them so special. What allows us to overcome great difficulties is combining different ideas from different people with all kinds of experiences to make something we'd never dreamed possible.

    Just think about it. Nobody creates a guild with the intention to make lifelong friends. Nobody can foresee what members we recruit in the future or how they will affect us. We build the relationships in our guilds and what we do with those relationships is our responsibility.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by immodium
    i was going to mention children play games in regard to sexual orientation. After recently watching a UK show called the Big Questions and the topic being "Should pornography be taught in Schools?", why not have sex in games? If that sort of topic is being debated it just shows what kids today are facing in RL.

    Isn't that for parents to decide where and when? Or do parents no longer need to exist?

     

    That was the main argument against the idea.

     

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  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrumpyJester
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by immodium

    What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

    THIS, why the hell are people bringing their sexual orientation into games, not only is it completely immersion breaking to bring up political and sexual topics, KIDS play these games, keep your sexual desires OUT OF THE GAME and go talk about it on a forum that deals with sex

     

    Why on earth would this be about sex? LGBT could just as easily be explained in terms of who you love. Kids certainly don't need to be protected from this, there's nothing "mature" about it.

    You are kidding right? What you find sexually attractive has nothing to do with love. Imagine having a  kid saying "Does that mean I'm gay becuase I love you daddy?" Wouldn't it just confuse the kid more? I'd feel like I've just dug a hole for myself with that explanation.

    I do agree there is nothing mature/intelligent about sex though.

    image
  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    segregation for safety is fine.

     

    as a counterpoint to some of the argumentation here, i could certainly see the space for a children's guild run by parents.

     

    just don't develop a ghetto mindset. that' the danger of not allowing exposure to the world around us.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

    Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

    image
  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

    Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

     

    once again someone in the absolute majority, a majority which has systematically repressed a group of people for centuries thinks that the same rules apply to them. well they don't. heterophobic would imply the ability to ruin your life, cause you to lose your job, or insist that you cannot marry the person you love, it would include being verbally harrassed for holding hands in public, or at times even physically assaulted. name me the heteros with this experience and we might could talk.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • jonrd463jonrd463 Tacoma, WAPosts: 598Member

    I don't guild any more, but I do have my own personal philosophy regarding this subject. In a game, I enter it as a character. Sure, my personality presents itself, but it's pretty neutral with regard to my sexual orientation, religion, and political beliefs. The reason is that for me, how I interact with others and play the game has nothing to do with these things, so there's no need to assert my stance with regard to them.

    In fact, I think people who DO feel the need to assert their straightness/gayness/religiosity/athiesm/conservative/liberal/etc. stances in a game, generally have some kind of agenda and are looking for a conflict. They go straight to my /ignore list, even if they happen to be on the same side of the arguments as I am.

    That stuff just has no place in a game, period.

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
         Personally.. I don't mind as long as it doesn't become a game issue..   EXCEPT if the religious stuff comes from in game deity, like it was back with EQ.. If you wanted to worship the God of War, or God of Thunder, etc etc, then I actually encourage MORE guilds to run with that and have fun.. 
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by aspekx
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

    Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

     

    once again someone in the absolute majority, a majority which has systematically repressed a group of people for centuries thinks that the same rules apply to them. well they don't. heterophobic would imply the ability to ruin your life, cause you to lose your job, or insist that you cannot marry the person you love, it would include being verbally harrassed for holding hands in public, or at times even physically assaulted. name me the heteros with this experience and we might could talk.

    Discriminating against people now because they had more rights in the past doesn't make things even. As distasteful as it sounds that type of guild has to have the same rules as any other or it isn't equal rights.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

    The odds of any guild being created not being mostly white, heterosexual and probably male is pretty close to zero. Creating a 'white, hetero' guild would be pointless. That already exists. There's no need to try and create a separate space.

    I don't think guilds based on race would be allowed in any game. Race is a different can of worms, one that I don't think any developer wants to open. I'm not sure about an all female and all male guild. Again though, all male guilds already exist, there's no need to try and create a separate space for them.

    One of the social aspects of guilds is finding people who may share common interests or who may have had the same experiences as the other people in the guild outside of the game. The guild I was in was composed of people who all worked for one company. We shared a common interest. From what I can see, this is the main point of a religious or LBGT guilds. Finding people who share a common interest or experiences when doing so otherwise would be nearly impossible in game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by aspekx
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

    Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

     

    once again someone in the absolute majority, a majority which has systematically repressed a group of people for centuries thinks that the same rules apply to them. well they don't. heterophobic would imply the ability to ruin your life, cause you to lose your job, or insist that you cannot marry the person you love, it would include being verbally harrassed for holding hands in public, or at times even physically assaulted. name me the heteros with this experience and we might could talk.

    Discriminating against people now because they had more rights in the past doesn't make things even. As distasteful as it sounds that type of guild has to have the same rules as any other or it isn't equal rights.

    GLBT guilds do not exclude anyone, they just ask that you be respectful to those in the guild who are of that orientation. Although I suppose that is discriminating against bigots and close minded a-holes.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 2,973Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    respectful to those 

    respect goes both ways

    if you want to be respected, don't do it by deliberately causing drama in games by dividing people by sexual orientation

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by evilastro
    respectful to those 

    respect goes both ways

    if you want to be respected, don't do it by deliberately causing drama in games by dividing people by sexual orientation

    I don't ever recall seeing a bunch of gay people mocking heterosexuals in any game I have played. Or causing drama by having a GLBT friendly guild.  Care to share some examples?

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by evilastro
    respectful to those 

    respect goes both ways

    if you want to be respected, don't do it by deliberately causing drama in games by dividing people by sexual orientation

    I nominate Waterlilly for MMO President..  Keep up the good work in chat..  BTW, if you and like minded players, plan on playing EQN and if that game is any good, send me a note, as I'll come join your guild.. 

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 2,973Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

     have played. Or causing drama by having a GLBT friendly guild.  Care to share some examples?

    The fact this topic is 15 pages long within 24 hours means it causes drama.

    Don't pretend like making a "Gay guild" doesn't cause drama. A "heterosexual" guild would cause drama too.

    And as far as examples, there are plenty.

    I believe it was WoW where a gay guild was disbanded because it was deemed discriminatory against heterosexuals.

    And I have nothing against gay people, but if you want to be treated like an equal, then act like one, and don't join guilds just to be different and cause drama, you know it will cause drama.

     

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by aspekx
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

    Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

     

    once again someone in the absolute majority, a majority which has systematically repressed a group of people for centuries thinks that the same rules apply to them. well they don't. heterophobic would imply the ability to ruin your life, cause you to lose your job, or insist that you cannot marry the person you love, it would include being verbally harrassed for holding hands in public, or at times even physically assaulted. name me the heteros with this experience and we might could talk.

    Discriminating against people now because they had more rights in the past doesn't make things even. As distasteful as it sounds that type of guild has to have the same rules as any other or it isn't equal rights.

    GLBT guilds do not exclude anyone, they just ask that you be respectful to those in the guild who are of that orientation. Although I suppose that is discriminating against bigots and close minded a-holes.

    It would be...of course the "funny" part is if you let these people form groups like that, in todays politically correct climate, they'd probably learn what it's like to walk a mile in the people they hates shoes. The avg person would not be very accepting of a guild that was based on hate or discrimination.

    I have a rule about stupid names. I think they're a great idea. If the devs force someone to change it I might play with someone for hours before I know they're an idiot. Someone walking around with a name like ipeeinurmouth tells me right away to avoid them. The same thing goes for guilds. If you join a guild that's white/hetero/ect only I know to avoid those people.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by immodium

    What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

    THIS, why the hell are people bringing their sexual orientation into games, not only is it completely immersion breaking to bring up political and sexual topics, KIDS play these games, keep your sexual desires OUT OF THE GAME and go talk about it on a forum that deals with sex

    Not everyone is a role player in character 24/7. I have regular chats with my guildies about RL. If you don't then good for you, but lots of people do, and they don't feel like getting harassed or feel marginalised.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Every single love parade and every single gay parade has people half-naked running in the streets shouting the most obscene stuff.

    I don't want to get to deeply into this delicate debate, but all those events in no way represent the vast majority of homosexual people. Those are ridiculous clown parades which have nothing to do with being homosexual. Most homosexual people find those things just as ridiculous as we heterosexual people do.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

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