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Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

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  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by stayBlind
    Would anyone have a problem with an exclusively NON-LBGT guild?

    Generally being anti something is a lot harder to pull off than being for something. Negativity in general tends to be more problematic, as its very easy to become extremely disrespectful when you start from a negative position, so on those grounds, I would say that the short answer is probably yes. The long answer is that it could be done, but you'd likely spend more time avoiding problems than what it would be worth given that most people play games to relax and not to focus on real life social commentary. That being said, it shoud be allowed just as much as the pro LGBT guilds should be; after all, there is always a chance that enough people want to make it happen that it would live, and they deserve their right to do so as long as they keep problems with others to a minimum.

    -----------------

    On the topic as a whole,  I can understand the impulse for themed guilds even though I never have felt the need personally. Even if you don't discuss real life issues, its a lot more pleasant to be able to make passing comments that reflect your point of view without getting into massive arguments and/or having to screen comments to avoid said arguments.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by stayBlind
    Would anyone have a problem with an exclusively NON-LBGT guild?

    Generally being anti something is a lot harder to pull off than being for something. Negativity in general tends to be more problematic, as its very easy to become extremely disrespectful when you start from a negative position, so on those grounds, I would say that the short answer is probably yes.

    exclusively S-Guild ? :)

     

    p.s. why is there no S in LBGT ? seems to include everything except the big one. Wouldn't that be what true acceptance looks like ? just a thought that popped up.

    image

  • majimaji ColognePosts: 2,003Member Uncommon

    I think such guilds make sense. After all, ideally, you get to know the people a bit and get to like them, and game together every now and then. And in MMORPGs, if you are in voice chat, you sometimes also talk about this and that.

    If I'd meet there a hardcore nazi, I'd either demand that the person leaves the guild or I'd quit it myself. Same if someone expresses hatred towards gays or whatever. Not because I'm gay, but because I strongly believe that everybody has the right to become happy, and do everything necessary to reach that aim, as long as nobody gets hurt.

    If I'd meet there a strongly religious person, I wouldn't really care about it. Everybody has his/her own beliefs or the lack thereof. If I'd be in a guild where about everybody would be of the same religion and constantly talk about it, I'd probably get annoyed, and leave.

    I mean, there've been guilds for people of a certain age (30+ for example), there've been guilds just for women. So why restrict people only to certain themes?

    Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

    Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,579Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    No problem at all with it.  Same as with people who advertise they are a guild of hard core raiders, pvp fanatics, server first specialists or stoners just looking for a good time. 

    Let people associate for the reasons they like, we are all free to join or ignore them as we please.

    All the example guilds you mentioned are game releated. Actually, the "Stoners looking for a good time" is worded rather ambiguously. :)

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  • AnevAnev Seattle, WAPosts: 11Member

    I find it funny how many people replied with "keep their personal stuff out of the mix" or "leave it at the door" or ... well, there are lots of responses and I'm sure you get the idea.

    The idea of an MMO is to meet others, to become friends and have fun playing.  If you are told to keep a part of your life ... silent ... then doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing an MMO?  I would hope that those I'm playing with like me for who I am not who they have created some image of me based on my nifty avatar/character on the screen - trust me, I don't look like no wizard in real life.

    The fact is, guilds that cater to a specific type of player, not play style, can at times give a person some others where their version of "normal" isn't going to be ignored or attacked.  Simply reading over the honest replies here proves that point when you think about some gay or lesbian person who wants to chat about their boyfriend or girlfriend ... because we all like to talk about those we love to those we are friends with right?

    Religion is yet another touchy thing especially as games move from one country to mixing in many others and our religious beliefs are just as personal as our discussions about our wife or husbands.  We want to share and be friendly. 

    This space reserved for moments of sanity!


    Veteran of: UO, SWG, EQII, COH, LOTRO & RIFT!
  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,579Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by stayBlind
    Would anyone have a problem with an exclusively NON-LBGT guild?

    Generally being anti something is a lot harder to pull off than being for something. Negativity in general tends to be more problematic, as its very easy to become extremely disrespectful when you start from a negative position, so on those grounds, I would say that the short answer is probably yes.

    exclusively S-Guild ? :)

     

    p.s. why is there no S in LBGT ? seems to include everything except the big one. Wouldn't that be what true acceptance looks like ? just a thought that popped up.

    This is the thing. Can't straight people have common interests with lesbian/gay/bi/trans person? Sex is that important to someone that they are not willing to share common interests.

     

    EDIT: Unless straight people are allowed to join, just be warned it might get pretty gay in guild chat. :)

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  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon

    I tend to frown upon things like this. Reason being is that honestly, if you allow these types of  guilds to form from real life issues, then you have to allow them all. And who wants to deal with intolerance in a vehicle for escapism when you just finished dealing with it in real life. I mean it's one thing to form guilds based on gaming schedules, languages or time zones. You know things that could change at a moments notice. But to based them on things of a more permanent basis like race, religion and sexual orientation is down right discriminatory! Even if the guilds are suppose to serve as safe havens for a particular group.

     

    For me the whole freakin game is suppose to serve as a safe haven for all its players and to further segregate its population is doing a great disservice to the spirit of mmorpgs. Curbing or filtering bad behavior is one thing, and we all should be doing it, but allowing lines to be drawn from deep rooted issues is not the answer. No matter how noble it starts out as.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,222Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
    Originally posted by stayBlind
    Would anyone have a problem with an exclusively NON-LBGT guild?

    Generally being anti something is a lot harder to pull off than being for something. Negativity in general tends to be more problematic, as its very easy to become extremely disrespectful when you start from a negative position, so on those grounds, I would say that the short answer is probably yes.

    exclusively S-Guild ? :)

    p.s. why is there no S in LBGT ? seems to include everything except the big one. Wouldn't that be what true acceptance looks like ? just a thought that popped up.

    Except every single guild that I have seen in my games that has billed themselves and LGBT or Christian have modified that with "friendly".  They're not exclusive, or at least don't bill themselves so.

    So I don't really see a problem with a guild billing themselves as straight friendly, as opposed to straight exclusive.  The problem with that guild is the message it is sending and the problems I see arising from that.  An LGBT friendly guild is sending the signal to that demographic that there is a safe place to play where they can express their point of view without negative repercussions.  A guild billing themselves as straight friendly, to me, isn't sending the signal that this is a safe place to present yourself and express your point of view.  It is sending the signal that this is a great place to hook up and meet the opposite sex.  I think that is because the norm is that expressing hetero views is already safe and the norm.  There is no need to create a safe haven where you fear others telling you to keep it all to yourself or "don't ask don't tell".  If the situation were reversed and homosexuality were the common norm and hetero was not, and hetero people were persecuted then I could see the need for something like that.

    In short the needs and freedoms of the minority and marginalized are different from the common and norm.  As a straight white 46 year old male, I have to worry far less about what I say and what people will react to than any group that is in the minority or marginalized.  Hopefully I got that out in a way that makes some sort of sense.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    So, we started with religion-based guilds, to eating habits, to humans not meant to eat meat, to maybe God didn't want us to eat meat...interesting thread.

    We're coming full circle to why these types of guilds are very 'Iffy' in our entertainment.  image

  • ZutchZutch famagustaPosts: 52Member Uncommon

    to be honest , am against such guilds, why ?

     

    well i think grouping type of people according to their political/religious beliefs in an MMORPG is wrong , it would break the diversity in the community and create sectarianism  or such labeling behavior , and when you have some douche or fascists in the game , this could cause big issues like , creating a counter guild mainly to offend/attk other ones

    personally speaking , i am muslim , and i would strongly stay away from joining guilds labeled by my religion or represents it , it will only cause troubles , plus it doesn't matter who you are and what you believe in an MMO , personal aspects aren't  necessary in cyber world , i mean i have faced many many offensive people ingame just by knowing what my religion is or nationality ( palestinian ) even reachs gkick , discrimination , insults , etc

     

    just my 2 cent

     

  • BeanpuieBeanpuie Norfolk, VAPosts: 812Member Uncommon

    Religious and LGBT guilds?    If they respect whatever game they are on and their rules, then i dont see a problem.

    i see them as no more different than a  All  Roleplay guild,  or a All Military Veteran Guild,  or a All Girl Gamers guild, just a conglomerate of folks  with like minded goals/beliefs having fun.

    if people can tolerate  Brony guilds and Bieber Guilds, then this shouldnt be a issue.

     

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Beanpuie

    Religious and LGBT guilds?    If they respect whatever game they are on and their rules, then i dont see a problem.

    i see them as no more different than a  All  Roleplay guild,  or a All Military Veteran Guild,  or a All Girl Gamers guild, just a conglomerate of folks  with like minded goals/beliefs having fun.

    if people can tolerate  Brony guilds and Bieber Guilds, then this shouldnt be a issue.

     

    LGBT guilds?  No problem at all.  Religious guilds?  I'm not a man of faith, but sure, have at it.  Brony guilds...cutting it close to the line.  Bieber guilds?  GTFO.

  • thexratedthexrated OuluPosts: 1,368Member Common
    I don't care if people want to band up together with "like-minded" individuals from other paths of life, as long as they do not promote their beliefs to me in the game world.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    So, we started with religion-based guilds, to eating habits, to humans not meant to eat meat, to maybe God didn't want us to eat meat...interesting thread.

    We're coming full circle to why these types of guilds are very 'Iffy' in our entertainment.  image

    Yeah, kind of night and day when you read the first page of this thread and then skip to the last page (8th), as I did...how the hell...

    So anyway, on topic, I doubt that it was as simple as Blizzard considering a ban for LBGT guilds, though they have made some questionable moves in the past...

    It's just silly to complain that they 'break my immersion' when you've got a hundred other sources of 4th-wall breaking going on in any mmo, including NPC dialogue itself usually.

    That said, I'd echo the sentiments of a poster on the first page, when I say I find it peculiar that anyone would even think to make such a guild or find that particularly desirable (I've never even seen such a guild around, but I'm guessing it must be particular religions that would even think to be that exclusive).

    I can speculate as to why though - people use these labels of 'I am a Christian (for the sake of example)" or "I am (LGBT)" as large parts, if not the whole of their identities, and so they dare not threaten that by leaving it out of their virtual lives either, lest their sense of identity become threatened.

    I'd never think to push some kind of terms of use that would prevent people from making such a move, though I would hope, at least in certain cases, that they would one day not use such labels as crutches, and it seems like trying to only surround oneself with people who feel similarly threatened is not necessarily the best way to overcome the problem, least of all in the form of a video game guild, whose main purpose clearly is not to deal with such real-world issues...

  • Mr_MechanicalMr_Mechanical RIVERSIDE, CAPosts: 88Member

    Interesting subject.

     

    I've never put much thought into it because, well, gaming and sexuality and religion are in practice and design so very far apart from each other that I never felt compelled to settle in with any sort of morality on the subject, as far as my gaming is concerned anyways.   

    I guess now that I put a little thought into it, I think I do have some sort of opinion.  [And let me say as a side note that I am completely liberal when it comes personal freedom.]   

     

    Exclusivity in a guild based on IRL statuses is something I regard as a bad thing.    There are exceptions I would consider, like Language barriers, Age limits, and perhaps time zone.   Those are non-discriminatory and are generally things that  benefit both the guild's members and the non-members, as not fitting in with one of those IRL boundaries would basically lessen such players' enjoyment being in the guild.  

    I think some of this may stem from situations where let's say, a guild leader is homosexual, and when the members find out, they get offensive reactions, so in response, they want to make guilds that state "LGBT FRIENDLY IS A MUST TO JOIN" or something along those lines.     /shrug   -   This kind of thing happens in all the new-gen mmo's that have shitty communities.     This was never an issue when MMORPGs were played by a larger percentage of mature people that respected each other enough not to try and belittle everyone around them every chance they got.

    But see when it comes to things like people starting LGBT themed guilds, it opens the doors for other things that ultimately would sour the community of any MMO immediately:

    - the "ANTI-guilds"  : for example "Anti-LGBT" or "STRAIGHTS ONLY" ( I don't even need to elaborate further on this. )   

    - then you have the other "pro" guilds you'd see popping up, like "THE FARE SKINS" or "THE BLACK PANTHERS", and then naturally, their "ANTI" counterparts... this is train is never late.

    When it comes down to it, I don't think such subjects have any legitimate reason to being what a guild is built for.  Even if/when these kinds of guilds start popping up, the people that form them should at least admit that they are being very prejudice, because regardless of someone's sexual preference, if they respect the other members of the guild, the fact that their sexual preference may differ from the guild's leader is no reason they should be rejected from membership.

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member

    I once started an evil themed guild, where we used to sacrifice a gnome every saturday night. It was actually a casual raiding guild, rather than an RP guild, but I started (or tried to start) some guild traditions, after all it's traditions and common interests and goals that bind us as society.

    Anyway, it was all going swimmingly until the "good" guys (christians) turned up and started following us around and spamming the gospel in world chat. After responding to a few of their posts and then infiltrating their guild and causing a bit of havoc, (raiding their bank and redecorating the guild hall was a particular highlight) I got banned along with a few fellow members, but not before destroying the Jesus Freaks guild and reputations.

    Moral of the story, don't as a guild p*ss to many people off. Because in the internet, people are less inclined to hold back.

  • dorugudorugu falkenbergPosts: 166Member Uncommon
    i got no prob w tht at all as long as they bhave n follo th tos :)
  • ZeroPointNRGZeroPointNRG Crooklyn, NYPosts: 70Member
    If a bunch of Christians want to get together and make a guild where they can chat about Christianity, church, etc., I couldn't care less, ( likewise for other religions). Same with gay/lesbian/transgender people, doesn't bother me at all if they form a guild for people with a certain lifestyle. I can definitely see idiots harassing these guilds in game though, unfortunately. 
  • Jadedangel1Jadedangel1 Newark, NJPosts: 184Member
    Originally posted by immodium

    What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

    This +10,000. For the life of me I can't figure out what one has to do with the other. What does a person's sex life or church membership have to do with slaying orcs in Azeroth or fighting cultists in Telaria? 

  • AnslemAnslem Ft. Lauderdale, FLPosts: 215Member

    I really couldn't care less what goes on in other folks' guilds.

    Not my circus, not my monkeys. 

    Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  • CommoXCommoX Tucson, AZPosts: 80Member Uncommon

    Personally I believe guilds should be themed within the games atmosphere, there's a very broad spectrum to that, but by blocking yourself off into little chunks/groups your just hurting yourself and your group.

    Religion - Sure, All praise No'donn! A good number of people can get behind what No'donn is about.

    Sexual Orientation - Gundabar's Fabulously Ranged Rangers. Why not, Rangers, ranged weapons, the chance to be epically fabulous, hell, I'm down for lookin down right deadly on a scouting mission.

    It highly amuses me when people who don't want to be segregated, looked at as different or sorted into a specific category do it to themselves and then cry foul.

    "Dear me, I've cordoned myself behind my differences and can't be bothered to look past them to see that we are all just people who might all enjoy a hobby together."

    Personal preference is just that, personal. If your friends/acquaintances can't see past that, it might be time to find some new ones.

    Everyone wants to be accepted, but they refuse to accept anyone else.

    Boggling

  • VarossVaross Nortonville, KYPosts: 487Moderator Uncommon
    Removed offtopic posts, please remain on the topic of the thread.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Guilds are social entities and its reasonable to want people you play with to be on the same wavelength and not offensive to you. I don't generally join gay guilds, but my guild mates do have to accept that my partner and I play together, I'm not going to disguise the fact to make a bigot more comfortable.
  • drakolasdrakolas Plymouth, MNPosts: 35Member Uncommon
    Many people, including myself, play MMOs for the social aspect. They aren't fun without friends imo, whether you're playing with friends you've met in person or online. If you are enthusiastic about a specific thing, why not find some other people to play with that are also enthusiastic about that or show a little bit of pride. I don't understand how this is difficult to grasp for anyone. As long as they aren't a hate group or forcing things on other people, who cares?
  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,579Member Uncommon

    i was going to mention children play games in regard to sexual orientation. After recently watching a UK show called the Big Questions and the topic being "Should pornography be taught in Schools?", why not have sex in games? If that sort of topic is being debated it just shows what kids today are facing in RL.

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This discussion has been closed.