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Who wants camping back?

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  • KBishopKBishop Member Posts: 205
    Originally posted by xeniar

    This. Camping wasnt just sitting there and chainpull mobs. That is the defenition of camping yes but it also was exploring. moving from campspot to campspot you came across structures and intresting mobs (rare spawns spawned on iregular timers on normal mob spots) wich otherwise you would not have seen. And being adventurous speccialy when spots where filled you created new spots. By exploring in regions few have visited. 

    honestly people who not ever have done this are missing out of a good social/entertainment experience. 

    People like Narius think that this issnt populair because the market would have created it. But that is a lie. The entire new playerbase and im talking about the WoW kiddies wich is 80% or more of our current mmo population have never played a game wich gave this deep social interactive gameplay. How can anyone say that people would not like it?

    It's like someone claiming that they don't like mcdonalds despite not ever having set a foot inside the place.

    rediculous

    pretty sure if you're roaming around a zone, you're a terribly inefficient group. Most every group was pretty much sitting in ONE place for as long as possible. You would never move around from an area where the pickens are good because you would not only stray further from a prime location, but your movement gave others a chance to take your spot.

    You are drawing some grossly faulty conclusions.

    You claim that camping was a chance to explore, and thus I can infer that you think that instances are not a chance to explore. This is obviously false for multiple reasons, first and foremost being that instances don't somehow subtract openworlds. If anything, instances provide more exploration because you have open worlds on top of many other individual zones.

    Secondly, you sound as if camping was a great social aspect. I don't know if you've ever camped a rare monster with a multiple hour spawn window with a guild, because the interactions were anything but great. They were nonexistent. 90% of the campers were AFK while waiting for the spawn.

    Lastly, you seem to think that the only reasons why camping have faded away is because there's a new demographic, while completely missing the obvious glaring flaws in camping that make it fucking terrible game design. Camping wasn't faded out because of a new generation of gamers, it was faded out because it was awful. The only reason it existed in the first place is because MMORPG's were still in their infancy.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

         KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

         You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

        OH btw.. you bring up ventrillo and other forms of audio chat.. That only applies to those people that have the server and password to players you are already aquainted with.. I believe what the other person was talking about was chatting with NEW strangers..  And you can't do multiple vent servers at once.. Vent , Team Speak or whatever you wish to use is basically for private chat with existing friends..  Anyways..

  • KBishopKBishop Member Posts: 205
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

         You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

    WoW did just this during Classic and TBC. There were camped bosses as well as intanced raids. The end result is pretty obvious as to which direction WoW went too.

    The problem with camping is that it almost always causes adverse gameplay. It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple different guilds all waiting for 1 mob. This means that a LOT of people are going home empty handed. This isn't adding in other bogus issues such as spawn windows, respawn times, etc. This is also not getting into the fact that it theoretically encourages cheating (those who have bots to claim faster than normal people are going to see larger mob claims)

    If you want camp bosses that arent valuable then thats fine. Again, WoW did/does this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action in comparison to raid bosses.

    If you are talking about EXP then there is possibility, however this would ultimately come to an abrupt stop once you hit endgame, so I don't know how effective this would be if you wanted to integrate both camping and instances.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by KBishop
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

         You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

    WoW did just this during Classic and TBC. There were camped bosses as well as intanced raids. The end result is pretty obvious as to which direction WoW went too.

    The problem with camping is that it almost always causes adverse gameplay. It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple different guilds all waiting for 1 mob. This means that a LOT of people are going home empty handed. This isn't adding in other bogus issues such as spawn windows, respawn times, etc. This is also not getting into the fact that it theoretically encourages cheating (those who have bots to claim faster than normal people are going to see larger mob claims)

    If you want camp bosses that arent valuable then thats fine. Again, WoW did/does this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action in comparison to raid bosses.

    If you are talking about EXP then there is possibility, however this would ultimately come to an abrupt stop once you hit endgame, so I don't know how effective this would be if you wanted to integrate both camping and instances.

         You can try and sell that to someone that doesn't know better.. You even contradict yourself above..  Second paragraph you stated "It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple guilds all waiting for one 1 mob".. Then turned around and said, "WoW did this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action"....... So first you say it was popular, then said it's not.. You need to make up your mind..  And for the record, you have NO clue why Blizzard does or doesn't do anything.. It is simply your opinion why Bliz might do something, and I have mine..  TYVM and have a nice day..

         If you honestly believe that end game is all about INSTANCE grinds.. then we really have nothing more to discuss :)

  • twruletwrule Member Posts: 1,251
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by kjempff
    Originally posted by twrule

    After reading this thread, I'm starting to think people who like exploration and a sense of adventure in their games like me are a rare or dying breed.

    A developer handcrafts an entire huge virtual world for us, where no matter where you go, there will be new things to see and find...and people want to sit tucked away in 1 little corner (maybe a specific 4-5 corners through the entire leveling process as the case may be - always the same 4-5 because the community has designated those the most efficient xp camps).

    'Hunting' named mobs is one thing, if done in a certain way that actually makes it a 'hunt', not a 'camp' - but as a major or the main source of xp by design?

    Hmm well this is my experience from Eq only. Camping took me all over the world, camping allowed me to see places I would never have gone, and sitting still in one place was like a safe spot from which to experience the world. Often the search for a camp spot would take me places, often I/we would move camp spots. Camping allowed the mind to settle instead of constantly be on the move, and therefore to better experience the world.

    Sure there were a bunch of popular spots for xp, but talk with someone who played on a different server and they often have other spots.. playing progression opened my eyes to many new places and I am sure I opened others eyes aswell. The vague quest descriptions and errors was a kind of exploring, trying to set up camp to get a drop from a mob, fail and try a new spot, all exploration. Invissing and "looking around" was much used aswell. I beleive You need to remember the camps that weren't just xp grind places, but the many quest drop camps aswell as getting to those camps made You explore... well again this is all eq specific.

    This. Camping wasnt just sitting there and chainpull mobs. That is the defenition of camping yes but it also was exploring. moving from campspot to campspot you came across structures and intresting mobs (rare spawns spawned on iregular timers on normal mob spots) wich otherwise you would not have seen. And being adventurous speccialy when spots where filled you created new spots. By exploring in regions few have visited. 

    honestly people who not ever have done this are missing out of a good social/entertainment experience. 

    People like Narius think that this issnt populair because the market would have created it. But that is a lie. The entire new playerbase and im talking about the WoW kiddies wich is 80% or more of our current mmo population have never played a game wich gave this deep social interactive gameplay. How can anyone say that people would not like it?

    It's like someone claiming that they don't like mcdonalds despite not ever having set a foot inside the place.

    rediculous

    I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this. Any exploration you do when 'looking for camps', you could have done more of by *not* stopping in the same spot for 8 hours (whether you actually would have or not personally is irrelevant). Sure I'm not saying we need to be constantly running - appreciating a new area fully, needing to hold one's ground against the tough monsters in the area to slowly create an opening to move forward are fine, scoping out the area for useful items/resources, or just catching one's breath are all fine. But it doesn't take hours of sitting in the same spot for my 'mind to settle' so that I will somehow appreciate it more.

    I have definitely experienced games where camping was the main form of XP; I am speaking from experience here. I don't see how adventuring in a band across the world has inherently less potential for socializing. If anything you are more likely to run out of interesting things to talk about after you've been killing the same crabs in the same spot for hours on end, and people zone out as they mechanically kill mobs.

    Long story short, there were times when camping worked out okay, but that doesn't mean a game designed around open world adventuring in bands wouldn't have been even better in the regards that made camping enjoyable.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Except a lot, an awful lot of the talking these days is on vent.  I don't need to press a key for that.

    Good luck with that on a European server with 20 languages. Typing is pretty much the only way for everyone to understand each other.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Except a lot, an awful lot of the talking these days is on vent.  I don't need to press a key for that.

    Good luck with that on a European server with 20 languages. Typing is pretty much the only way for everyone to understand each other.

    I so miss Ultima Online's SysTran.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by thexrated
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Forced camping, like forced grouping, doesn't force anyone to interact.  Most PUGs never say a word to each other.  It only forces people into close proximity, it doesn't force people to do anything together.  I could join a camp, know I have an hour until respawn, and go watch TV until then.  I could multitask in the background.  I could read a book.  There's nothing that says I have to actually talk to anyone in the game.  Heck, I could chat with a friend elsewhere in the game if I wanted to.

    It's just an absurd idea that putting you next to someone by force is going to make you want to interact with them.

    I agree, most of the camping in MMOs that I have done was with people I already socialized with. I might get to know some of them better, but I hardly made new friends there.

    That said. I think it is a nice feature that added something to do. MMOs need to have a variety of things to do and this was a fun feature.

    Depends on how you're camping, I guess.  In AO, groups would "camp" in Shadowlands and run up and down in a line, wiping everything out, then running back to the beginning.  It's constant action, but that's more farming than camping.  Camping is sitting around waiting for a particular mob or group of mobs to respawn so you can kill them and get back to waiting.  This was especially true for high level mobs that had a long respawn time.  Camping didn't give you anything to do, it gave you a lot of time to do nothing.  You couldn't leave, you couldn't go play the game elsewhere, you had to sit there and do nothing, waiting for that moment when there was something to do.  I see no reason to think that I'd talk to anyone who was also sitting around waiting unless I knew them already and had something in common with them, which rarely happens in MMOs anymore.  I'd much rather put the game in the background and do something else worthwhile.

    I remember the camping in AO. Like the mercenary camp introduced in Notum Wars and the other spawn-a-boss camps. AO was interesting because most additions, including expansions, added a lot of different things to do. They were never just an extension to the existing systems.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432

    (Sorry if this was said earlier. I have not read through all of the posts yet :) )

    Camping as "AN" activity I am all for. Camping as "THE" activity, not so much.

    I had good times camping in EQ. I also had bad times :) Overall, the experience was fun for me.

    Think about today's MMOs, though. We used to spend many hours in one camp in the old MMOs. Often times, people would leave and others would join in 1 single camping spot. Today, you would have to change camp spots every few hours when you would eventually out-level the spot. There really is no need to camp anymore.

    Camping was the answer for long XP "grinding."

    There are adjustments MMOs could make to the camping mechanic to make it more viable today, but I think that most players would just look elsewhere for their XP. Camping requires time. Time many players now do not have like they did.

    One thing I do miss from camping is when it was time to go, the other group members would try to get you from leaving. "Just one more pull!" "Can't you stay a bit longer?" It was nice to feel wanted :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KBishopKBishop Member Posts: 205
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by KBishop
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

         You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

    WoW did just this during Classic and TBC. There were camped bosses as well as intanced raids. The end result is pretty obvious as to which direction WoW went too.

    The problem with camping is that it almost always causes adverse gameplay. It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple different guilds all waiting for 1 mob. This means that a LOT of people are going home empty handed. This isn't adding in other bogus issues such as spawn windows, respawn times, etc. This is also not getting into the fact that it theoretically encourages cheating (those who have bots to claim faster than normal people are going to see larger mob claims)

    If you want camp bosses that arent valuable then thats fine. Again, WoW did/does this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action in comparison to raid bosses.

    If you are talking about EXP then there is possibility, however this would ultimately come to an abrupt stop once you hit endgame, so I don't know how effective this would be if you wanted to integrate both camping and instances.

         You can try and sell that to someone that doesn't know better.. You even contradict yourself above..  Second paragraph you stated "It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple guilds all waiting for one 1 mob".. Then turned around and said, "WoW did this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action"....... So first you say it was popular, then said it's not.. You need to make up your mind..  And for the record, you have NO clue why Blizzard does or doesn't do anything.. It is simply your opinion why Bliz might do something, and I have mine..  TYVM and have a nice day..

         If you honestly believe that end game is all about INSTANCE grinds.. then we really have nothing more to discuss :)

    I think you really missed the part where I mentioned that the rare spawns now drop virtually nothing, and that reason in particular is why no one camps them. Because they are worthless.

    There's no contradiction, you just missed the main factor: the loot pool.

    If rare spawns have a valuable loot pool, then they have many people camp them

    If rare spawns have a negligable loot pool, then they have virtually nobody camp them.

  • ChieftanChieftan Member UncommonPosts: 1,188
    I'm trying to figure out how players today "don't have time" to camp. Seriously?? Maybe they need to be retrained to slow the F down instead of blazing through everything.

    As for people saying camping died with EQ, that game's decline is a seperate issue. I think a better overall game caused that and not one single aspect of gameplay.

    My youtube MMO gaming channel



  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting? 

    Way MORE exciting than  pulling the same mob again and again (ie. camping) in the same room.

    At least you get to see different rooms and different mobs. I am surprised you will think that pulling the same mob in the same room more exciting than pulling from TWO dungeons (which probably have 10x the rooms, and 10x different variety of mobs).

    WOW.. really?  Let me know when a roaming Sand Giant can spawn in those static dungeons and cause havoc to you group..  That is one thing you have to love about instances.. They are so predictable that even Stevie Wonder can go thru them.. Have a nice day.. :)

    When? Even back in Vanilla WOW. You don't know there are rare spawn in dungeons like Scarlet Monastary?

    And again, way better than staying at the same place for hours. And tell me ... isn't staying at the same room waiting for the same spawn as predictable than running through a dungeon?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Chieftan
    I'm trying to figure out how players today "don't have time" to camp. Seriously?? Maybe they need to be retrained to slow the F down instead of blazing through everything.

    As for people saying camping died with EQ, that game's decline is a seperate issue. I think a better overall game caused that and not one single aspect of gameplay.

     

    Why should anyone slow down if that is fun for them?

    Forcing a life style people don't like is just silly. I don't have time to camp, and i won't. It is not fun and a waste of my leisure time. I doubt you can convince me otherwise, nor stop me to only play games without camping.

    And yes, camping died with EQ .. good riddance. There were plenty of complaints back then. All fixed now.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    (Sorry if this was said earlier. I have not read through all of the posts yet :) )

    Camping as "AN" activity I am all for. Camping as "THE" activity, not so much.

    I had good times camping in EQ. I also had bad times :) Overall, the experience was fun for me.

    Think about today's MMOs, though. We used to spend many hours in one camp in the old MMOs. Often times, people would leave and others would join in 1 single camping spot. Today, you would have to change camp spots every few hours when you would eventually out-level the spot. There really is no need to camp anymore.

    Camping was the answer for long XP "grinding."

    There are adjustments MMOs could make to the camping mechanic to make it more viable today, but I think that most players would just look elsewhere for their XP. Camping requires time. Time many players now do not have like they did.

    One thing I do miss from camping is when it was time to go, the other group members would try to get you from leaving. "Just one more pull!" "Can't you stay a bit longer?" It was nice to feel wanted :)

         OH I so agree here.. Today's games are designed for "end game", and leveling is just a short term annoyance.. And you are right that in today's mmo world, a group out levels any camping spot location in less then an hour, so there is no need for that.. Many times when playing WoW, I would out level a dungeon before I got a chance to go into it such as Deadmines..  I will say that in GW2 I see more "camping" then any game of recent years since EQ, AND it's the most active spot in the zones.. Just like in Kassex Hills, the most active area is the DE events that happen around the "bridge" that moves to 2 other locations, then back to the bridge and wait for it to re-trigger.. People farm DE's like that for XP and reward.. 

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting? 

    Way MORE exciting than  pulling the same mob again and again (ie. camping) in the same room.

    At least you get to see different rooms and different mobs. I am surprised you will think that pulling the same mob in the same room more exciting than pulling from TWO dungeons (which probably have 10x the rooms, and 10x different variety of mobs).

    WOW.. really?  Let me know when a roaming Sand Giant can spawn in those static dungeons and cause havoc to you group..  That is one thing you have to love about instances.. They are so predictable that even Stevie Wonder can go thru them.. Have a nice day.. :)

    When? Even back in Vanilla WOW. You don't know there are rare spawn in dungeons like Scarlet Monastary?

    And again, way better than staying at the same place for hours. And tell me ... isn't staying at the same room waiting for the same spawn as predictable than running through a dungeon?

        WoW only had a few rare bonus mobs.. Having a random rare spawn inside an instance is NOT random.. They are generated the moment the instance is created..  You want to use selective examples to justify your anti-camping position, and I and others can give equal if not MORE examples of camps that go wrong due to surprises.. Games today are just easy carebear programming.. Heck they even nerfed random roaming mobs because they were too much of an inconvienence.. 

         I can't remember the last time I saw a random roaming mobs such as EQ's Talendor surprise you while camping.. like I did.. BAM BAM BAM

    You have been slain by Talendor..

    Loading.. Please Wait..

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting? 

    Way MORE exciting than  pulling the same mob again and again (ie. camping) in the same room.

    At least you get to see different rooms and different mobs. I am surprised you will think that pulling the same mob in the same room more exciting than pulling from TWO dungeons (which probably have 10x the rooms, and 10x different variety of mobs).

    WOW.. really?  Let me know when a roaming Sand Giant can spawn in those static dungeons and cause havoc to you group..  That is one thing you have to love about instances.. They are so predictable that even Stevie Wonder can go thru them.. Have a nice day.. :)

    When? Even back in Vanilla WOW. You don't know there are rare spawn in dungeons like Scarlet Monastary?

    And again, way better than staying at the same place for hours. And tell me ... isn't staying at the same room waiting for the same spawn as predictable than running through a dungeon?

        WoW only had a few rare bonus mobs.. Having a random rare spawn inside an instance is NOT random.. They are generated the moment the instance is created..  You want to use selective examples to justify your anti-camping position, and I and others can give equal if not MORE examples of camps that go wrong due to surprises.. Games today are just easy carebear programming.. Heck they even nerfed random roaming mobs because they were too much of an inconvienence.. 

         I can't remember the last time I saw a random roaming mobs such as EQ's Talendor surprise you while camping.. like I did.. BAM BAM BAM

    You have been slain by Talendor..

    Loading.. Please Wait..

    Well that is another reason why people don't like camping.

    At the end of the day, random spawn is just simple to do whether with camping or not. It is just a red herring. The fact that spawns are not random, as you said, is due to popular demand.

    And are you disputing that a dungeon has many more rooms than a static camp, and that you encounter more mobs? (sans the unpopular random spawn). If surprise is what people are looking for, they can be done 100x better in a dungeon (heck you can even randomize the dungeon as in D3) than camping.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    I think that technology simply improved from the (MUD era) hidden Mongen firing once every x cycles.What happened to camping? The games just moved beyond the stoneage tech that first created it.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Except a lot, an awful lot of the talking these days is on vent. I don't need to press a key for that.
    Good luck with that on a European server with 20 languages. Typing is pretty much the only way for everyone to understand each other.

    Good point re: language/accent barrier.

    Venge, you have a point that more folks may use vent, or join MMOs with RL friends. None of my RL friends play MMOs. I tried vent in Planetside at the insistence of outfits (guilds), and they all sounded odd. It is amusing to note that practically no one socialized on vent, which is ok by me cuz the sounds of their voices was a huge turn off. Through the keyboard, everyone sounds the same, and frankly seemed more talkative/fun.



    Originally posted by Chieftan
    As for people saying camping died with EQ, that game's decline is a seperate issue. I think a better overall game caused that and not one single aspect of gameplay.

    Yes, EQs decline had nothing to do with camping.


    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

        WoW only had a few rare bonus mobs.. Having a random rare spawn inside an instance is NOT random.. They are generated the moment the instance is created..  You want to use selective examples to justify your anti-camping position, and I and others can give equal if not MORE examples of camps that go wrong due to surprises.. Games today are just easy carebear programming.. Heck they even nerfed random roaming mobs because they were too much of an inconvienence.. 

         I can't remember the last time I saw a random roaming mobs such as EQ's Talendor surprise you while camping.. like I did.. BAM BAM BAM

    You have been slain by Talendor..

    Loading.. Please Wait..

    Well that is another reason why people don't like camping. (Yep, I suppose so and some of us like it.. You like ketshup and I like mustard.. The issue is YOU don't want me having mustard isn't it?)

    At the end of the day, random spawn is just simple to do whether with camping or not. It is just a red herring. The fact that spawns are not random, as you said, is due to popular demand. ( more mustard and ketschup)

    And are you disputing that a dungeon has many more rooms than a static camp, and that you encounter more mobs? (sans the unpopular random spawn). If surprise is what people are looking for, they can be done 100x better in a dungeon (heck you can even randomize the dungeon as in D3) than camping. ( no no no.. I'm disputing that an open world camp has much more UNPREDICTABLE events then a pre-programmed instance)

     

         I have done tons of instances in various games and one thing is sure.. NONE OF THEM ever surprise me after the first run..  When I left WoW at the end of the Lich King phase, we were buzzing thru heroics in 15 minutes.. and half that time was spent pressing the forward key.. As a holy pally, farming heroics I never had to STOP and rest for mana.. I seldom ever dropped below 90%, even in boss fights..  Rift was no different, and so was TOR.. I prefer dynamic open worlds that have roaming mobs and camps..  I find no challenge in any gaming when I know the outcome ahead of time..

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

        WoW only had a few rare bonus mobs.. Having a random rare spawn inside an instance is NOT random.. They are generated the moment the instance is created..  You want to use selective examples to justify your anti-camping position, and I and others can give equal if not MORE examples of camps that go wrong due to surprises.. Games today are just easy carebear programming.. Heck they even nerfed random roaming mobs because they were too much of an inconvienence.. 

         I can't remember the last time I saw a random roaming mobs such as EQ's Talendor surprise you while camping.. like I did.. BAM BAM BAM

    You have been slain by Talendor..

    Loading.. Please Wait..

    Well that is another reason why people don't like camping. (Yep, I suppose so and some of us like it.. You like ketshup and I like mustard.. The issue is YOU don't want me having mustard isn't it?)

    At the end of the day, random spawn is just simple to do whether with camping or not. It is just a red herring. The fact that spawns are not random, as you said, is due to popular demand. ( more mustard and ketschup)

    And are you disputing that a dungeon has many more rooms than a static camp, and that you encounter more mobs? (sans the unpopular random spawn). If surprise is what people are looking for, they can be done 100x better in a dungeon (heck you can even randomize the dungeon as in D3) than camping. ( no no no.. I'm disputing that an open world camp has much more UNPREDICTABLE events then a pre-programmed instance)

     

         I have done tons of instances in various games and one thing is sure.. NONE OF THEM ever surprise me after the first run..  When I left WoW at the end of the Lich King phase, we were buzzing thru heroics in 15 minutes.. and half that time was spent pressing the forward key.. As a holy pally, farming heroics I never had to STOP and rest for mana.. I seldom ever dropped below 90%, even in boss fights..  Rift was no different, and so was TOR.. I prefer dynamic open worlds that have roaming mobs and camps..  I find no challenge in any gaming when I know the outcome ahead of time..

    I didn't say i don't want you to have mustard. I say a) i don't like camping, b) many don't like camping, c) not likely a free market will provide camping. For all i am concerned, if you can get it somewhere, more power to you.

    "open world camp has much more unpredictable events" ... that is just a design choice that instances are not that unpredictable. Unpredictability is easy to do. It has nothing to do with camping nor instances dungeons.

    BTW, don't tell me you don't know that many EQ camps has ZERO unpredictability ... again by design. Have you camped black burrow for xp? The lizard temple (forget its name)? There is little unpredictability. Same mob appeared at the SAME spot (they didn't even randomize this). Or L Guk boss camp?

    The bottomline is that dungeons give you variety of terrain. Static camp has zero. All other stuff (random spawn or what not) can be put in either. Plus, i have not seen good scripting in camping. Another negative for camping.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Rydeson
     

         I have done tons of instances in various games and one thing is sure.. NONE OF THEM ever surprise me after the first run..  When I left WoW at the end of the Lich King phase, we were buzzing thru heroics in 15 minutes.. and half that time was spent pressing the forward key.. As a holy pally, farming heroics I never had to STOP and rest for mana.. I seldom ever dropped below 90%, even in boss fights..  Rift was no different, and so was TOR.. I prefer dynamic open worlds that have roaming mobs and camps..  I find no challenge in any gaming when I know the outcome ahead of time..

    The same i can say about EQ boss and many xp camps. In fact, it is even worse because killing a mob that spawn at the same place lacks even variation.

    And yes, there is even less challenge in an EQ camp than a WOW dungeon. Why? You don't even have to learn to kill the boss. The other group will gladly help you speed up the kill so they don't have to wait as long.

    Camping is worse in both variation, and challenge. Thus, i agree ... no challenge is no fun.

     

     

  • KaledrenKaledren Member UncommonPosts: 312
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
     

         I have done tons of instances in various games and one thing is sure.. NONE OF THEM ever surprise me after the first run..  When I left WoW at the end of the Lich King phase, we were buzzing thru heroics in 15 minutes.. and half that time was spent pressing the forward key.. As a holy pally, farming heroics I never had to STOP and rest for mana.. I seldom ever dropped below 90%, even in boss fights..  Rift was no different, and so was TOR.. I prefer dynamic open worlds that have roaming mobs and camps..  I find no challenge in any gaming when I know the outcome ahead of time..

    The same i can say about EQ boss and many xp camps. In fact, it is even worse because killing a mob that spawn at the same place lacks even variation.

    And yes, there is even less challenge in an EQ camp than a WOW dungeon. Why? You don't even have to learn to kill the boss. The other group will gladly help you speed up the kill so they don't have to wait as long.

    Camping is worse in both variation, and challenge. Thus, i agree ... no challenge is no fun.

     

     

    This isn't entirely true Narius. Sure...in EQ1 a mob spawned in the same spot after it was killed. But many times....say you killed a dark blue con Orc....next spawn could be a yellow or even red con. So yes...same mob spawned, but it could of been of a different difficulty lvl. That is variation to a degree.

     

    Also disagree with lack of challenge comment. As you had to KNOW the mob pathing, aggro ranges, and respawn timers (To a degree) as to not get them overwhelming you with pops at the same time or even adds....which in EQ1 were often death or run options.

     

    Not to mention watching the chat for "TRAIN TO ZONE!" or "TRAAAAAIN!!!", or simply seeing one coming and avoiding them. Which personally...made it fun and challenging too.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    The same i can say about EQ boss and many xp camps...
    ...there is even less challenge in an EQ camp than a WOW dungeon.


    Comparing EQ Camps to WoW dungeons are like comparing apples to oranges. You can, however, compare WoW dungeons to LDON missions. LDON missions were fun, but there were many many camps more challenging than LDON missions. Many camps involved a lot of risk to get to. Getting to an LDON required going to a fairly safe location and clicking. Wow Dungeons require even less effort/risk than that.


    Nari you claim to have played EQ but constantly spout incorrect information.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • XsonicXsonic Member UncommonPosts: 93
    We got gatecamps in EVE. we gank players intead of bosses. 
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Chieftan
    I'm trying to figure out how players today "don't have time" to camp. Seriously?? Maybe they need to be retrained to slow the F down instead of blazing through everything. As for people saying camping died with EQ, that game's decline is a seperate issue. I think a better overall game caused that and not one single aspect of gameplay.

    I don't think it's that they don't have actually time, it's that they'd rather be doing something else. Like instead of sitting there they'd rather be in combat.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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