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The virtual world feeling

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  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Lord.Bachus We should get away of all those numbers, going back to  hitpoint bars, maybe with a % in it, but nothing more. and get away with mob levels and come bring back the con colors, numbers are killing immersion, and immersion is needed for a virtual world feeling.
    No we shouldn't.   The reason we have all those numbers is by popular demand. When WOW was first release, you don't see HP and hit numbers. People developed add-ons to estimate mob hp, and those become popular. Blizz can fight them .. so blizz joined them and put in the numbers. Immersion and virtual world feeling is apparent not that important for many players.
      I dunno about that. Take Guild Wars 2 for example. This is currently the flagship mmo for esport style combat and wvw pvp. And everyone is going nuts over....kites. You dont think thats an obvious sign that people want their mmos to be more immersive? We take any hint of qol content like a glass of water in the sahara desert.
    If immersion does not conflict with progression, or convenience .. sure.

    Do you see lots of players asking to remove LFD because it is immersion breaking? Instead, people QQ about games without it. Look at what happen with TOR.

     



    LFD tools are a themepark staple whether I like it or not haha. But yeah, people want that intangible feeling of being in a world. The best fantasy movies achieve that. And its not because they have the best action sequences. Its the attention to detail and the ability to create a believable environment.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang


    LFD tools are a themepark staple whether I like it or not haha. But yeah, people want that intangible feeling of being in a world. The best fantasy movies achieve that. And its not because they have the best action sequences. Its the attention to detail and the ability to create a believable environment.

     

    Again, i am not disputing some immersion adds to enjoyment. However, i am also saying it is not that important in relative to other aspect of the game.

    The LFD example is a primary example of convenience is more important than immersion.

    I have no issue (and actually would welcome it) if devs put lots of details, and atmosphere in my game. I have a problem if they make the game unfun (to me) in the name of realism (like requiers me to walk 20 min before fighting anything).

     

     

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Foomerang
    LFD tools are a themepark staple whether I like it or not haha. But yeah, people want that intangible feeling of being in a world. The best fantasy movies achieve that. And its not because they have the best action sequences. Its the attention to detail and the ability to create a believable environment.  
    Again, i am not disputing some immersion adds to enjoyment. However, i am also saying it is not that important in relative to other aspect of the game.

    The LFD example is a primary example of convenience is more important than immersion.

    I have no issue (and actually would welcome it) if devs put lots of details, and atmosphere in my game. I have a problem if they make the game unfun (to me) in the name of realism (like requiers me to walk 20 min before fighting anything).

     

     


    I can see that. On the flip side, I remember running on foot across Corellia in SWG (pre-cu) and after about 15 minutes of just wilderness, I got this very surreal feeling of being lost out in the middle of nowhere. It was one of the more profound mmo moments Ive had. I realize the majority probably doesnt like that type of stuff in their mmos, but its things like that that are the reason I still have faith in the genre.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon

    for me both Vanguard and Ryzom feel very "virtual world".

    I love how in vanguard I can travel and not see anything and then suddenly have a point of interest in the distance.

    In Ryzom you hear the wind, see groups of beasts roaming around, some coming up to you and just checking you out, very few qusets you just "find things to do".

    When you are out in the wilderness you feel out in the wilderness.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I can see that. On the flip side, I remember running on foot across Corellia in SWG (pre-cu) and after about 15 minutes of just wilderness, I got this very surreal feeling of being lost out in the middle of nowhere. It was one of the more profound mmo moments Ive had. I realize the majority probably doesnt like that type of stuff in their mmos, but its things like that that are the reason I still have faith in the genre.

    I don't like that in my games (MMO or not). Getting lost is not my idea of fun. Why? Because the solution is a chore and not challenging.

    I think it is also hopeless romantic to have "faith" in a collection of 'games".

    I have no faith entertainment. I don't need to. I will play a game AFTER i determine if it is fun. I don't need faith.

    And genre boundaries are just limiting. So what if a game is a MMO or not. If it is fun (to me), i will play it. If not, i won't. I won't care what genre it belongs to.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Actually to me the orriginal EQ felt very much like a virtual world and less like a game...
    Problem for me is i have a very hard time for myself to indentify what exactly gives me that virtuall world feeling, i however realise that games like GW2 really feel like games and not like worlds .


    Yes, anything which makes a player feel disconnected from the game world breaks immersion:

    1. Instant travel (other than that provided by a player)

    2. Minimaps and compass indicators. These days players spend most travel time looking at minimaps or compass-indicators, instead of the world in front of them.

    3. Brokers: Buy/sell goods through one NPC who is not even standing in a shop.

    4. Very little npc interaction. EQ felt alive with all its npc interaction.

    5. Flying numbers. In Vanguard, the flying numbers were 100% meaningless.

    6. Monty Haul (big) numbers.
    a. mob hit points
    b. damage dealt
    c. gear stats

    At level 15 in Vanguard, I saw 1,500 damage routinely. This is way bigger than the highest damage spell in old EQ (Ice Comet), which took wizards perhaps a year to get. In Vanguard all equipment had a dozen stats. When it comes to numbers, less is certainly more.


    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 953Member Uncommon

    Speaking as someone who operated a SWG Master Musician / Master Doctor after the CU/NGE, people hated the support buffer classes.  They hated queueing up and spending 10k-300k for doctor buffs.  They hated even more spending 1k-60k for entertainer buffs.  I had a blast in SWG, I maintained 6 accounts for 3.5 years.

    Don’t get me started on UO, or Exploit Online as it should have been called.  I only played  UO for 1 or 2 months, and I played maybe 2-6 hours a week on dial up.  Not the 20-30+ hours per week I played PS / SWG on DSL.  But even back then I was reading news on games, and UO was all about the player exploits.  Origin was not happy with the emergent user play style.  People were not playing UO as Origin intended.  Just take a look at Criticism of Ultima Online, for an example of the found exploits.  Trammel was asked for, they didn’t come up with it from thin air.

    Believe it or not I am a fan of sandbox, what I HATE about today's proponents of  sandbox is their belief that sandbox = exploit cornucopia.  But here is the thing, modern developers have lessons learned to start with when making a modern sandbox.  I would hope we wouldn’t see the same exploits of 20 years ago, as so many sandbox fanbois secretly hope for.  BTW the term Train was first coined in UO.

    The only true answer to the OP’s question. “What MMo feels most like a virtual world and least like a game, and why do you think so?”  Any game that has exploits, and allows exploits.  Why does a sandbox game fail?  It doesn’t allow exploits.

    Pardon any spelling errors
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    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
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  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    What MMo feels most like a virtual world and least like a game, and why do you think so?

    Early U.O. and early EQ.  The reason being that these games did not micromanage the players' paths and allowed them to set out and explore freely (within their abilities) a mysterious world.  There was no instancing (in the true sense) and the world environment was shared with players who fought, traveled, crafted, bartered and sold, and socialized; all giving the feeling of a medieval community.  Your character LIVED in the game world.

    No single player design will ever match that.  Oh, it might give you an interesting once-through experience, but there is minimal cooperation/interaction with other players, minimal choices (you are on a path), and such a world feels like a collection of stage backdrops.

    U4 .. U6 .. or may be even U7.

    At least in those SP games, i don't have gankers camping newbie spawn spot, and use l33t speak to insult you after they kill and loot you.

    I would much rather play U6 than UO.

    Fine, but for long-term MMO play and community and all that, the single player games don't cut it.  Closest was Diablo I or II with their randomly generated maps, but even those got old after.  I'm talking long-term gameplay (like 5 to 8 years).  MMO's do that best, when designed correctly.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member
    Everquest
    The secret world

    (Currently playing the secret world)
    I don't know later on for tsw but on the zombie island you can literally feel the horror.the black house if any saw that movie they all be shilled .the effect is engrossing.hopefully the whole game is this well made.but I doubt it.it is hard to give player the mood of the moment.horror is relatively easy but other emotion are harder to convey .like the mood for detective .or other .wow had it till they instanced .then they baSicly killed emotion in wow.I recall when people would try to sneak by as and there would always be rogue around. Etc etc.its very hard to bring emotion to mmo
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    What MMo feels most like a virtual world and least like a game, and why do you think so?

    Early U.O. and early EQ.  The reason being that these games did not micromanage the players' paths and allowed them to set out and explore freely (within their abilities) a mysterious world.  There was no instancing (in the true sense) and the world environment was shared with players who fought, traveled, crafted, bartered and sold, and socialized; all giving the feeling of a medieval community.  Your character LIVED in the game world.

    No single player design will ever match that.  Oh, it might give you an interesting once-through experience, but there is minimal cooperation/interaction with other players, minimal choices (you are on a path), and such a world feels like a collection of stage backdrops.

    U4 .. U6 .. or may be even U7.

    At least in those SP games, i don't have gankers camping newbie spawn spot, and use l33t speak to insult you after they kill and loot you.

    I would much rather play U6 than UO.

    Fine, but for long-term MMO play and community and all that, the single player games don't cut it.  Closest was Diablo I or II with their randomly generated maps, but even those got old after.  I'm talking long-term gameplay (like 5 to 8 years).  MMO's do that best, when designed correctly.

    Personally i won't play any game for that long. Anything is boring after a while. Don't tell me the population of any long term MMO (heck wow is 9 years old) is the same today, as in the beginning.

    D1 & 2 are great games but i didn't play them for that many years. Not even close.

    So that kind of longevity is irrelevant to me. There are so many new games that it is unlikely i will play something that is that old.

    Heck, even D3 which i love, will probably not last 2 years for me .. and that is NOT playing it exclusively so that i don't get sick of it fast.

     

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon

    Asheron's Call feels most like a world for me because it offers:

    • Monthly content updates
    • Grouping is important but solo'ing is too
    • The quests are actual quests that make you travel, feel immersed and take planning and thought.
    • Player Housing
    • The most ultimate progression system that truly never ends
    • Exploration is rewarding
    • It takes a lot of time and commitment to reach the level cap
    • The dynamic approach to community driven activities tying crafters and adventurers together
     

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    What MMo feels most like a virtual world and least like a game, and why do you think so?

    Early U.O. and early EQ.  The reason being that these games did not micromanage the players' paths and allowed them to set out and explore freely (within their abilities) a mysterious world.  There was no instancing (in the true sense) and the world environment was shared with players who fought, traveled, crafted, bartered and sold, and socialized; all giving the feeling of a medieval community.  Your character LIVED in the game world.

    No single player design will ever match that.  Oh, it might give you an interesting once-through experience, but there is minimal cooperation/interaction with other players, minimal choices (you are on a path), and such a world feels like a collection of stage backdrops.

    U4 .. U6 .. or may be even U7.

    At least in those SP games, i don't have gankers camping newbie spawn spot, and use l33t speak to insult you after they kill and loot you.

    I would much rather play U6 than UO.

    Fine, but for long-term MMO play and community and all that, the single player games don't cut it.  Closest was Diablo I or II with their randomly generated maps, but even those got old after.  I'm talking long-term gameplay (like 5 to 8 years).  MMO's do that best, when designed correctly.

    Personally i won't play any game for that long. Anything is boring after a while. Don't tell me the population of any long term MMO (heck wow is 9 years old) is the same today, as in the beginning.

    D1 & 2 are great games but i didn't play them for that many years. Not even close.

    So that kind of longevity is irrelevant to me. There are so many new games that it is unlikely i will play something that is that old.

    Heck, even D3 which i love, will probably not last 2 years for me .. and that is NOT playing it exclusively so that i don't get sick of it fast.

     

    Sounds like your not a true fan of the MMO genre because MMO's and there persistent worlds are meant to be a virtual reality meant to be played for years at a time.  Your line of thinking is what I would expect from the console crowd and is primarily one of the reasons I feel MMO do not belong on the console.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Eden Prairie, MNPosts: 338Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Sad thing, but the mentioned SWG pre CU does no longer excist.

    LIES! Teh SWGEMU lives forever!!!! Been a hell of a long time getting it to where it is though, and it's still not quite fully functional... but for like 5 people rebuilding a game that took a whole company and a ton of money  to do, I'll be playing it the day CH's are working again XD

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    Surprised myself thinking it but TSW gave me that feeling more than any other mmo I've played.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,082Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    for me both Vanguard and Ryzom feel very "virtual world".

    I love how in vanguard I can travel and not see anything and then suddenly have a point of interest in the distance.

    In Ryzom you hear the wind, see groups of beasts roaming around, some coming up to you and just checking you out, very few qusets you just "find things to do".

    When you are out in the wilderness you feel out in the wilderness.

     

    I agree on both games plus i would throw WurmOnline into the mix and even Darkfall, EQ and Age Of Wulin.

    But the winner is Atys(Ryzom) by a  long mile, the game has changing seasons and weather. Weather effects include rain, snow, and wind. Tied to the season and weather changes are the movements of animals and availability of harvestable materials.

    Animal migration are also second to none.

    For example, a certain type of sap may only be harvested during spring rains and be unattainable during other seasons or weather conditions. Weather conditions can change minute by minute. Each game season (spring, summer, fall, and winter) lasts four real time days.

    Come on, what MMO can even come close to Ryzoms dynamic world.

     

     

     

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  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    That sounds very cool. Maybe I'll check Ryzom out.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,553Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by BadSpock I think for a game to really have that virtual world feeling it really only needs two major systems in place: 1. Housing 2. Non-combat classes/professions   Another big one that is important to many is: 3. Territorial control PvP (be it faction, guild, RvR, etc.)   These very simple criteria put games like UO, SWG, and EvE in their proper place as true "virtual worlds" - though the housing aspect of EvE is a bit... odd? Non-standard compared to say UO/SWG.  
    Actually to me the orriginal EQ felt very much like a virtual world and less like a game, and they didn´t have any of those

     

     

    Problem for me is i have a very hard time for myself to indentify what exactly gives me that virtuall world feeling, i however realise that games like GW2 really feel like games and not like worlds .


    Perhaps its the trend to have every aspect of a game itemized, tracked, displayed by a numerical value, and put into an achievement system. You cant escape the "game" so to speak. You cant explore over that hill without a message popping up on the screen saying "DISCOVERED THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL! +10 exploration points. Cash in your exploration points for exciting rewards!"

     

    things like that run rampant in games these days, so trying to make it feel more organic is difficult with so many artificially imposed reward systems.

    Lolz.  And I was so proud that I found the other side of the hill too!  What pisses me off is if you are going to bother to ding-dong my redundant "achievements" you better give me something kick ass for that interruption into my immersion.  Like say a free lolly at 7-Eleven.  Then I'd be even more proud of my ding-dong.

     

    To answer the OP's thread - nothing.  I role play in the games using a shiz load of my imagination to the point where it hurts.  But I have never been in a game that let me forget it was a game.  Rabbits should not fight back and drop coins and heavy armor.  Devs are money making retards.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin

     

    Sounds like your not a true fan of the MMO genre because MMO's and there persistent worlds are meant to be a virtual reality meant to be played for years at a time.  Your line of thinking is what I would expect from the console crowd and is primarily one of the reasons I feel MMO do not belong on the console.

    "True" fan? I am not a true fan of any entertainment products. I use them for fun, not just because i have to be a "fan".

    MMOs are not "meant" for anything. They are just entertainment products grouped by some common features. The definition and the grouping will change because of the market.

    Whatever you believe is pretty much irrelevant to the market. If a big enough audience want a "console" MMO, it will happen. Heck, it is happening.

    In fact, many console games (like DIshonor, or Bioshock, although i play them mostly on PC) are more fun to me than any MMOs.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by BadSpock I think for a game to really have that virtual world feeling it really only needs two major systems in place: 1. Housing 2. Non-combat classes/professions   Another big one that is important to many is: 3. Territorial control PvP (be it faction, guild, RvR, etc.)   These very simple criteria put games like UO, SWG, and EvE in their proper place as true "virtual worlds" - though the housing aspect of EvE is a bit... odd? Non-standard compared to say UO/SWG.  
    Actually to me the orriginal EQ felt very much like a virtual world and less like a game, and they didn´t have any of those

     

     

    Problem for me is i have a very hard time for myself to indentify what exactly gives me that virtuall world feeling, i however realise that games like GW2 really feel like games and not like worlds .


    Perhaps its the trend to have every aspect of a game itemized, tracked, displayed by a numerical value, and put into an achievement system. You cant escape the "game" so to speak. You cant explore over that hill without a message popping up on the screen saying "DISCOVERED THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL! +10 exploration points. Cash in your exploration points for exciting rewards!"

     

    things like that run rampant in games these days, so trying to make it feel more organic is difficult with so many artificially imposed reward systems.

    I have wanted to bring this up before.   Does the game ruin the virtual world.  Mobs standing around, quests, magic items stats listed, your exploration bonus +10 and all the combat numbers.   They make you notice the game and therefore take away from the virtual world.  However, these are games so will removing those ruin the game?

    Back in the day, we played a ton of dnd.  When you discovered a magic item, it didn't have stats or powers listed on it.  You had to cast an identify spell OR play around with it.  You could get a +1 sword, not have it identified then use it to full effect.  A wand of fireballs, not so much, unless the DM just let you use it.

    When wow added sparkly effects to plants you could gather, it really detracted from the world experience for me.

    I  would like to see a game hide all the numbers.  Let players experiment like the days of old.  They might find some fun in it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2

    I  would like to see a game hide all the numbers.  Let players experiment like the days of old.  They might find some fun in it.

    If that is fun, they won't be downing an add-on for wow en mass and let the add-on do it for them. They would have been doing the experiments themselves.

    It is pretty obvious that most want the results, not the fun of the research.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon

    EQ and believe it or not Darkfall UW.  Vanguard has the best world but the rest of the game is so piss poor I can't count it.

     

    Edit: Nari... why do you even come to this website?

  • fl0wfl0w StockholmPosts: 22Member

    This is going to be my first post on MMORPG.com, even though I created the account back in 2004 :).

    To me it's a combination of two. When the world is consistent (art, style, quests, [what have you], ... ) and where there's rules not paths. By that I mean, I like it when I get to decide how I want to play the game myself.

    I had an epic time playing Neocron 1.0. I was a crafter. Standing in my dark alley and crafting my ass off, getting money and recognition. 

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
         Virtual world is very subjective.. IMO any game mechanic that brings about  a physical or emotional response on my end meets that qualification..  The game world needs to mean something to that individual..  Normally I like the change in climate, sounds and mobs to start with.. 
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by waynejr2

    I  would like to see a game hide all the numbers.  Let players experiment like the days of old.  They might find some fun in it.

    If that is fun, they won't be downing an add-on for wow en mass and let the add-on do it for them. They would have been doing the experiments themselves.

    It is pretty obvious that most want the results, not the fun of the research.

    Let me tell you this, when i first played EQ, i hated the deathpennalties and not being able to do anything solo, or how harsh the game was when you made a single mistake. 

     

    Now many years later i have come to realise that exactly these things, the challenge, the excitement and the fear of dieing made the experience so good... Surviving an adventure was a reward by itselves.

     

    the people that play current day mmo,s like a cleric works his spreadsheats are the same people comlaining that mmos are so boring these days, well obviously because they are playing with spreadsheats instead of having fun adventures in an immersive world.

     

    now, i realise that people love min maxing, but if you give the a single character sheat and hundreds of abbilities to choose from, you replace the boring numbers with things much more challenging like planning strategies and having tactics based on abbilities and not on numbers.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member

    Community to me makes it feel like a "virtual world" and not just a game.  You get to know others, you form relationships and that is sooooooooooo much more immersive to me than simply "oh I'm going to my house now, that I built, and I can chop down this tree".

     

    I mean those things are nice, I like housing and crafting (or at least the existence of crafting jobs I don't always like to do them myself).  But what really draws me in (or doesn't) is feeling like I know most of my server.  Nothing beats that.

     

    I also like to play with the UI turned off at times which if the game has a nice world/graphics/etc. is a completely new experience, but I can usually only manage this once I have been playing a title for a year or two and can pretty much "play by feel" or am just messing around.

     

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