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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

    Yes, No.

    There have been many. Not many are still P2P, granted, but many PTriple A MMOs have come since WoW in 2004, and a good number of the started out as P2P:

    EQ2 (well it came out at the same time nearly), LOTRO, AoC, Vanguard, DDO, TERA, SWTOR, TR, MO, Aion, CoH/CoV, .....

    The list goes on a good ways. Now you can argue if they were good games or not - but they all were Triple A quality, and all started as subscription.

    There is a sizeable portion of the playerbase that are glad FFXIV is subscription-based with no cash shop.

    As long as it doesn't have an itemshop this might just be the right thing to do. There are plenty of MMO players that hate itemshops so making it oldschool can be a large advantage as long as the game is fun.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    [STUFF]

    I am interested to see how this all unfolds with how the MMO market is changing, quality MMOs like Everquest Next starting with F2P model. Big MMOs like WoW adding cash shops and FF14 making a stand they will never go F2P. Will be interesting.

    Not for nothing, but you are making a lot of assumptions that aren't proven yet.

    1st: SoE has released virtually nothing about EQ:N and you've already labled it a quality game. Add to that the fact that you are assuming their F2P business model is going to be a success. A Cash Shop where you can convert RMT to gold in a game that should have a player driven economy is a very steep and slippery slope. I have serious doubts they can pull that one off.

    2nd: You can use "the writing's on the wall" approach to WoW's recent developments. However, they have stated this item was for the Asian markets where they don't have subscription models. And while I would be foolish to state we'll never see this in the West. It still remains your opinion and not a fact. As of now, WoW has NOT added a cash shop and have NOT stated they intend to do so in our market. You have presented it as if it's a proven fact when It still only remains a possibility.

    3rd: The last part is true except the context in which you present it indicates it won't remain that way when the company's history does.

    SoE has said very clearly EQN will be F2P hybrid. Also EQN unlike games like DP EQN will be a in house game and much like EQ1 and EQ2, it will be quality. I am sure of it. I stand by what I said that you quoted. It will be fun to see how this all unfolds.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    [STUFF]

    I am interested to see how this all unfolds with how the MMO market is changing, quality MMOs like Everquest Next starting with F2P model. Big MMOs like WoW adding cash shops and FF14 making a stand they will never go F2P. Will be interesting.

    Not for nothing, but you are making a lot of assumptions that aren't proven yet.

    1st: SoE has released virtually nothing about EQ:N and you've already labled it a quality game. Add to that the fact that you are assuming their F2P business model is going to be a success. A Cash Shop where you can convert RMT to gold in a game that should have a player driven economy is a very steep and slippery slope. I have serious doubts they can pull that one off.

    2nd: You can use "the writing's on the wall" approach to WoW's recent developments. However, they have stated this item was for the Asian markets where they don't have subscription models. And while I would be foolish to state we'll never see this in the West. It still remains your opinion and not a fact. As of now, WoW has NOT added a cash shop and have NOT stated they intend to do so in our market. You have presented it as if it's a proven fact when It still only remains a possibility.

    3rd: The last part is true except the context in which you present it indicates it won't remain that way when the company's history does.

    SoE has said very clearly EQN will be F2P hybrid. Also EQN unlike games like DP EQN will be a in house game and much like EQ1 and EQ2, it will be quality. I am sure of it. I stand by what I said that you quoted. It will be fun to see how this all unfolds.

    I am not telling you that you are wrong on any points. But I am also not telling you that your are right either. All I am saying is please don't state opinions as fact.

    EQN is not a quality game.........at least not yet. It may be. I hope it is. This genre needs a shot in the arm.

    But why will it be fun to see if SE can maintian a P2P game or not? (Assuming you mean that you are watching from the outside)? I hope I misinterpret, but it almost sounds like you will derive a sense of satisfaction to see FF14 go F2P.  If that does happen, and if your prediction for WoW pans out to be true then all of us who are wanting a P2P model with no Cash Shops  will no longer have any games. F2P gamers have options, B2P gamers have options. P2P gamers have one last hope. and you would take pleasure seeing that taken?

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    [STUFF]

    I am interested to see how this all unfolds with how the MMO market is changing, quality MMOs like Everquest Next starting with F2P model. Big MMOs like WoW adding cash shops and FF14 making a stand they will never go F2P. Will be interesting.

    Not for nothing, but you are making a lot of assumptions that aren't proven yet.

    1st: SoE has released virtually nothing about EQ:N and you've already labled it a quality game. Add to that the fact that you are assuming their F2P business model is going to be a success. A Cash Shop where you can convert RMT to gold in a game that should have a player driven economy is a very steep and slippery slope. I have serious doubts they can pull that one off.

    2nd: You can use "the writing's on the wall" approach to WoW's recent developments. However, they have stated this item was for the Asian markets where they don't have subscription models. And while I would be foolish to state we'll never see this in the West. It still remains your opinion and not a fact. As of now, WoW has NOT added a cash shop and have NOT stated they intend to do so in our market. You have presented it as if it's a proven fact when It still only remains a possibility.

    3rd: The last part is true except the context in which you present it indicates it won't remain that way when the company's history does.

    SoE has said very clearly EQN will be F2P hybrid. Also EQN unlike games like DP EQN will be a in house game and much like EQ1 and EQ2, it will be quality. I am sure of it. I stand by what I said that you quoted. It will be fun to see how this all unfolds.

    I am not telling you that you are wrong on any points. But I am also not telling you that your are right either. All I am saying is please don't state opinions as fact.

    EQN is not a quality game.........at least not yet. It may be. I hope it is. This genre needs a shot in the arm.

    But why will it be fun to see if SE can maintian a P2P game or not? (Assuming you mean that you are watching from the outside)? I hope I misinterpret, but it almost sounds like you will derive a sense of satisfaction to see FF14 go F2P.  If that does happen, and if your prediction for WoW pans out to be true then all of us who are wanting a P2P model with no Cash Shops  will no longer have any games. F2P gamers have options, B2P gamers have options. P2P gamers have one last hope. and you would take pleasure seeing that taken?

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! We know it won best of game, SoE said it will be F2P. Everything I said is tied into facts. Will it be the quality game your looking for? Is it what Im looking for? That we dont know. Fact is its a triple A MMO thats coming out right away as F2P. 6 years dev time, its not a fluff game. Again I say, things are changing in this market, you see it or you have not been following the subject. How will this impact FF14 and other new MMOs coming out this next 1-2 years? Will be interesting to see.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of this website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

  • subzero565subzero565 Ormond Beach, FLPosts: 3Member

    This game is worth playing, I played beta phase 3 and enjoyed it and I can't wait for phase 4. Don't let these idiot haters miss

    your chance to play one of the best game in 2013. If you don't believe me see for yourself look for FFXIV ARR videos in youtube, do your research.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by NetSage
    Have you ever heard the saying "If they told you to jump off a bridge..."?  I mean just because the market as whole is moving that way doesn't make it the best move for everyone.  So no matter what you think you know you can still be wrong.

    Read my whole post above why they will have to take that jump as well. They want their share of people looking for a new game after launch they will have to make that move as well. Of corse I can be wrong as well =-) We just having a friendly chat on our views of the F2P system. Im not trying to tell SE what to do and I am happy to P2P. The game is fun and a quality product. I just think a hybrid P2P system could make the game better. Heck even friends you want to play with you. How much more likely would they come try the game if you told them they could try it from free from level 1-max level? If they like the game, when they get to max level then you sub. WIn win!

    You make some really good points, but it's really not that simple.  In the cases that you brought up, LOTR and EQ2, the games were dying, they had to go that route.  WOW isnt dying, they are just losing subs, why would they risk gauranteed money and going for what ifs, it's not plausible because you can't assume they will increase subs going that route.  You also have to take into account there are many people that prefer P2P only, nothing more.  No cash shops whatsoever.  I for one, will not play a game with a cash shop ever again.  People say you don't have to use it, but, it's not that easy.  Temptation is a beesh.  Again, you make some very good points but It really depends on the situations that the games are in.  You may very well be right in certain conditions but with WOW, they would be stupid to go FTP.  Even losing 45 mil a month like you say, they still have guranteed 5 or 6 times that, they would be stupid to take a risk and go for the what if route.  You can't honestly tell me it's a guarantee that they will increase subs going your route.

    I used to take your stand on cash shops. GW2 changed my mind on that. I was outraged when cash shops started to enter P2P games but here is the fact. People will pay the fees to get what they want. In WoW that sparkle pony mount on opening weekend made 25 mill. You dont think every MMO developer didnt stop and start thinking about how cash shops would effect their game? Its coming IMO. I maybe wrong but I think the entire MMO market is in the middle of a quantum shift with cash shops and F2P and F2P hybrids. I personally will play what ever is quality,P2P, F2P, B2P or freemium. 

    It's funny because I am coming form the other end of it. I was a big big f2p advocate and would never play games that had a sub because I though it wasn't worth it for just the reasons you mention and seem to be advocating.

    Experience in the genre though has though me otherwise and has taught me the majority of f2p game that are designed to be f2p are of lesser quality, designed for short term high rotation clients. They take for ever to fix bug etc etc the list goes on and on.  Hell most f2p game are not as polished, as FFXIV ARR is in beta, after a year  of being live.

    Is f2p the big trend lately? Yes it is because most companies don't care about giving you a quality product, they just care about shearing the sheep for a quick buck.  Are there exceptions? Sure and  for both models.

    F2p is designed for the add people that always need to be after the next best thing, the next shiney.

    If you are going to be using pseudoscience to predict markets and and how companies are going to go in the future at least take a look at their past history and take that into account ;) 

    Just because your a gnome doesn't mean you have to leave all logic and common sense at the door image

    If this game was from a different company and was different IP I might even agree that there was good chances it would go f2p at some point in the future but this isn't the case and think your wrong about this one. Time will tell and in a year or 2 if your still around I will be happy to start a thread about it and say,

    Neener Neener Neener Nanfoodle!

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • subzero565subzero565 Ormond Beach, FLPosts: 3Member
    Just Pre-ordering Final Fantasy XIV: ARR gives you rewards especially if you get the collector's edition. I'm sure they'll reward players for subbing. To be honest I'd rather play a Pay to Play game than F2P because I've wasted so much money on F2P games trying to pay to win lol.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

    I dont think that has anything to do with the price of gas. Retention is retention. The ability to keep new players coming in as old players leave is a skill Blizzard has yet to learn as they have spent so long resting on the fact they were the game to play. SoE has had to fight to keep there place and has learned to use tools to do so. Thats the real point. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • ArourieArourie Philadelphia, PAPosts: 4Member
    Hey trolls...........game is P2P end of story! Move on.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

    I dont think that has anything to do with the price of gas. Retention is retention. The ability to keep new players coming in as old players leave is a skill Blizzard has yet to learn as they have spent so long resting on the fact they were the game to play. SoE has had to fight to keep there place and has learned to use tools to do so. Thats the real point. 

    Naw naw naw the game is old so it will have trouble getting and keeping new players the older it gets. If you went to buy a new car would you go the the dealership and buy that semi shiney used 2010 they have in their back yard or would you rather buy the 2013 model that just came in?

    LIke I said many are after the next new shiney and that is the f2p market. Will some older games use f2p to prolong the life of their games? Sure no one is denying that but to use this as an argument that f2p is better than p2p and that this game will invariably go f2p is foolish.

    Again take a look at SE and how THEY have been operating with FFXI and this game we are talking about.

     

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arourie
    Hey trolls...........game is P2P end of story! Move on.

    Only troll post I see here maybe yours? Why the insults when people just having a nice discussion? No one is upset here just talking about games and the MMO market. You dont want to take part dont read it and move on.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • ilovetopvpilovetopvp St.louis, MOPosts: 18Member
    i prefer it to have a subscription over a cash shop. 
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

    I dont think that has anything to do with the price of gas. Retention is retention. The ability to keep new players coming in as old players leave is a skill Blizzard has yet to learn as they have spent so long resting on the fact they were the game to play. SoE has had to fight to keep there place and has learned to use tools to do so. Thats the real point. 

    Naw naw naw the game is old so it will have trouble getting and keeping new players the older it gets. If you went to buy a new car would you go the the dealership and buy that semi shiney used 2010 they have in their back yard or would you rather buy the 2013 model that just came in?

    LIke I said many are after the next new shiney and that is the f2p market. Will some older games use f2p to prolong the life of their games? Sure no one is denying that but to use this as an argument that f2p is better than p2p and that this game will invariably go f2p is foolish.

    Again take a look at SE and how THEY have been operating with FFXI and this game we are talking about.

     

    Could be... but what about all the people driving classic cars. I see a 69 SS Nova going down the road it turns my head faster then a new sports car. Older games are offering depth newer MMOs have not had the time to build and if you give players reasons to come try your game like Free to try it, rewards for subbing, char advancement for long time play you can have a better retention rate. SoE has fine tuned that skill very well. I think games like WoW that are losing subs will take notice if they want to be around for another 4-10 years. Blizzard has dropped titan for now, adding a cash shop and I think more changes are to come. They are focusing on keeping what they got IMO.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

    I dont think that has anything to do with the price of gas. Retention is retention. The ability to keep new players coming in as old players leave is a skill Blizzard has yet to learn as they have spent so long resting on the fact they were the game to play. SoE has had to fight to keep there place and has learned to use tools to do so. Thats the real point. 

    Naw naw naw the game is old so it will have trouble getting and keeping new players the older it gets. If you went to buy a new car would you go the the dealership and buy that semi shiney used 2010 they have in their back yard or would you rather buy the 2013 model that just came in?

    LIke I said many are after the next new shiney and that is the f2p market. Will some older games use f2p to prolong the life of their games? Sure no one is denying that but to use this as an argument that f2p is better than p2p and that this game will invariably go f2p is foolish.

    Again take a look at SE and how THEY have been operating with FFXI and this game we are talking about.

     

    Could be... but what about all the people driving classic cars. I see a 69 SS Nova going down the road it turns my head faster then a new sports car. Older games are offering depth newer MMOs have not had the time to build and if you give players reasons to come try your game like Free to try it, rewards for subbing, char advancement for long time play you can have a better retention rate. SoE has fine tuned that skill very well. I think games like WoW that are losing subs will take notice if they want to be around for another 4-10 years. Blizzard has dropped titan for now, adding a cash shop and I think more changes are to come. They are focusing on keeping what they got IMO.

    The mainstream doesn't drive classic cars that's more the exception to the rule.  The mistake your making is that you seem to thing the majority of f2p games want people to stay for a long long time which just isn't case and is not what they are designed for.

    They want  you to run through content pay cash for the short term  for items like bag/bank space, content, mounts and other shineys and once you been through the game once or twice they don't care if you bugger off they already made their money off you. They then do xpacks or updates to lure you back with new content and shiney etc to buy.  Take Neverwinter new pack for the new update, do you really think that was designed for their existing fanbase? lol

    Not really it's to lure back those that left or to lure new people in, those already playing that have a couple characters and just want to endgame are not very profitable for them they already have account wide mounts and they already bought the bag/bank space etc, short of buy new mounts or races they can't expect to make as much from them as they will from a new player.

    Low retention but high rotation.  

    As for WoW like I said they may choose to go f2p to milk more cash out of people no argument there but that has nothing to do with this thread topic and in no way means this game will invariably go f2p.

     

    SE seems to be proving themselves to be different than some of these other companies.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

    I dont think that has anything to do with the price of gas. Retention is retention. The ability to keep new players coming in as old players leave is a skill Blizzard has yet to learn as they have spent so long resting on the fact they were the game to play. SoE has had to fight to keep there place and has learned to use tools to do so. Thats the real point. 

    Naw naw naw the game is old so it will have trouble getting and keeping new players the older it gets. If you went to buy a new car would you go the the dealership and buy that semi shiney used 2010 they have in their back yard or would you rather buy the 2013 model that just came in?

    LIke I said many are after the next new shiney and that is the f2p market. Will some older games use f2p to prolong the life of their games? Sure no one is denying that but to use this as an argument that f2p is better than p2p and that this game will invariably go f2p is foolish.

    Again take a look at SE and how THEY have been operating with FFXI and this game we are talking about.

     

    Could be... but what about all the people driving classic cars. I see a 69 SS Nova going down the road it turns my head faster then a new sports car. Older games are offering depth newer MMOs have not had the time to build and if you give players reasons to come try your game like Free to try it, rewards for subbing, char advancement for long time play you can have a better retention rate. SoE has fine tuned that skill very well. I think games like WoW that are losing subs will take notice if they want to be around for another 4-10 years. Blizzard has dropped titan for now, adding a cash shop and I think more changes are to come. They are focusing on keeping what they got IMO.

    The mainstream doesn't drive classic cars that's more the exception to the rule.  The mistake your making is that you seem to thing the majority of f2p games want people to stay for a long long time which just isn't case and is not what they are designed for.

    They want  you to run through content pay cash for the short term  for items like bag/bank space, content, mounts and other shineys and once you been through the game once or twice they don't care if you bugger off they already made their money off you. They then do xpacks or updates to lure you back with new content and shiney etc to buy.  Take Neverwinter new pack for the new update, do you really think that was designed for their existing fanbase? lol

    Not really it's to lure back those that left or to lure new people in, those already playing that have a couple characters and just want to endgame are not very profitable for them they already have account wide mounts and they already bought the bag/bank space etc, short of buy new mounts or races they can't expect to make as much from them as they will from a new player.

    Low retention but high rotation.  

    As for WoW like I said they may choose to go f2p to milk more cash out of people no argument there but that has nothing to do with this thread topic and in no way means this game will invariably go f2p.

     

    SE seems to be proving themselves to be different than some of these other companies.

    I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    It won best of game at E3 by 2 different game sites. Its quality! 

    GW2 and TSW both won a fair share of awards, and according to The Internet (tm), they are manifestations of the antichrist.

    I'm with Geezer and his "wait and see" approach on this one.

    By internetz you mean mmorpg.com? outside of thise website i hear nothing but good things about GW2 and TSW both from critics as well as player base. Ironically both TSW and GW2 rank in top 5 on this very website. (GW2 sitting pretty at number one and TSW at number 2 for months now since release).

     

    Of the MMOs that have come out over the past year or so, TSW and GW2 were the best I have played. If GW2 had the trinity I would still be playing it =-)

    But that's the thing with GW2. Everything about GW2 was built specifically for GW2. including the business model Which is a good match for GW2. But all those things that work in that game also came with Tradeoffs. And for that game, It can work. because for the most part, the deficiencies were accounted for and weren't game-breakers. But that doesn't mean the same features built in it will translate to other games. Having been a long time customer of Anarchy Online, I recieved a closed beta invitation to TSW. It was an OK game. Although I was not impressed enough to buy it. And the business model was a failure because it didn't match the game. A double dip? TSW was not that good. Plus it had the wrong end game content. Or should I say lack there of?

    In order to successfully command a subscription you have to have a lot of different things to do at cap. Rift and WoW both lost site of this and relied too much on dailys dungeons and raids. But back when WoW was still growing. Look at what it was then. Long term leveling curves. Lots of progressions. Different types of quest chains that opened up at cap. That at the end of the chain you could then begin to earn rep with factions. You didn't ding cap and start doing dailys, you didn't start raiding. Maybe you did dungeons, but not heroics, not for a while.  The list goes on. Developers cut out all that content cuz players said "It's too grindy" well duh....it's an MMO. Now they remove the grindy parts and sit back and wonder where everyone went.

    THAT is why P2P is failing. So, yeah, we'll see if FF gets it or not.

    I agree and disagree here. I think some dev teams have taken a lazy approach to end game and have gotten us on this thread mill or new end game gear and dailies over content thats fun. Where I disagree is why WoW is losing footing. I think the options now days for MMOs gives players so many options that we are no longer locked into a small handful of good games. Also freedom to pick how you pay. Im hardcore player turned casual because of my life options I picked. Married and things like that. So if I love a game and can get by with a cash shop paying 2-5 bucks a month, why would I sub? So gamers have options and WoW is feeling the hurt. The market is changing and WoW is feeling the hurt. Niche games are taking their chunk and the MMO market is not in a place a good game does not win you subs. You need to do more. Payment models, reward players for subbing, advancement on your char for long time players. Whats in it for me =-)

    WoW is losing subs because it is old period. I really don't think the model has anything to do with it.

    That is a factor but I think there is more to it then one simple fact of its old. If that was the case EQ1 has been holding is sub steady for many many years and its older then any MMO.

    Does EQ have the same sub numbers as WoW?  No so of course it will hold its sub better it has less fat to lose so to speak.

    I dont think that has anything to do with the price of gas. Retention is retention. The ability to keep new players coming in as old players leave is a skill Blizzard has yet to learn as they have spent so long resting on the fact they were the game to play. SoE has had to fight to keep there place and has learned to use tools to do so. Thats the real point. 

    Naw naw naw the game is old so it will have trouble getting and keeping new players the older it gets. If you went to buy a new car would you go the the dealership and buy that semi shiney used 2010 they have in their back yard or would you rather buy the 2013 model that just came in?

    LIke I said many are after the next new shiney and that is the f2p market. Will some older games use f2p to prolong the life of their games? Sure no one is denying that but to use this as an argument that f2p is better than p2p and that this game will invariably go f2p is foolish.

    Again take a look at SE and how THEY have been operating with FFXI and this game we are talking about.

     

    Could be... but what about all the people driving classic cars. I see a 69 SS Nova going down the road it turns my head faster then a new sports car. Older games are offering depth newer MMOs have not had the time to build and if you give players reasons to come try your game like Free to try it, rewards for subbing, char advancement for long time play you can have a better retention rate. SoE has fine tuned that skill very well. I think games like WoW that are losing subs will take notice if they want to be around for another 4-10 years. Blizzard has dropped titan for now, adding a cash shop and I think more changes are to come. They are focusing on keeping what they got IMO.

    The mainstream doesn't drive classic cars that's more the exception to the rule.  The mistake your making is that you seem to thing the majority of f2p games want people to stay for a long long time which just isn't case and is not what they are designed for.

    They want  you to run through content pay cash for the short term  for items like bag/bank space, content, mounts and other shineys and once you been through the game once or twice they don't care if you bugger off they already made their money off you. They then do xpacks or updates to lure you back with new content and shiney etc to buy.  Take Neverwinter new pack for the new update, do you really think that was designed for their existing fanbase? lol

    Not really it's to lure back those that left or to lure new people in, those already playing that have a couple characters and just want to endgame are not very profitable for them they already have account wide mounts and they already bought the bag/bank space etc, short of buy new mounts or races they can't expect to make as much from them as they will from a new player.

    Low retention but high rotation.  

    As for WoW like I said they may choose to go f2p to milk more cash out of people no argument there but that has nothing to do with this thread topic and in no way means this game will invariably go f2p.

     

    SE seems to be proving themselves to be different than some of these other companies.

    I dont agree on F2P goals there but thats for another thread =-) Maybe some do but thats not it at all. More you play the more chances you will spend money in the cash shop. As for why WoWs move matters to the topic of this thread? Well its a trend IMO. Market changing. If most MMOs and even triple A MMOs like WoW move to this F2P hybrid model where you get to try for free till top level. Will FF14 be forced to do the same if they want their fair share of the people looking for a new MMO? What do you think?

    When will you get it through your thick skull.  FFXIV will not be going F2P period.  They are find taking a year or more to make money back on their investment.  They do not have investors to pay back like every other game that went F2P.  The F2P model is a FAD and will go a way in 2 to 3 years when more publishers close down games because they were not making money on the F2P model.

    image

  • SkuallSkuall UnknowPosts: 1,282Member Uncommon

    im glad that FFXIV is p2p ,no cash shop = enchanting system for gear (Tera,  aion ect) , no updates in months....

    p2p is good if the devs work and update , balance and fix the game

     

    and FFXIV isnt going to be F2p ever , hell FFXI is p2p and has released an expansion some months ago....

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