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The virtual world feeling
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
What MMo feels most like a virtual world and least like a game, and why do you think so?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
swg because there was so much more to do than combat. mmos are in a bad habit right now of putting the overwhelming majority if its resources into the combat system and combat centric systems. Other systems feel like an afterthought or fluff. This leaves the mmo feeling more "gamey" than "virtual worldy"
Wushu.
Everything you do effects the NPCs around you, for good or for bad.
The terran doesn't change but the landscape does through guild territory control.
Players become NPCs when offline and do 100's of different jobs around the cities and country side.
17 or 18 professions ranging from, fisher man, to musician, to calligrapher. You might run up a hill and see a person transcribing poems or playing music
Everything is playable from roof tops to bottoms of lakes, this creates so many nooks and crannies. 98% of the time if you see it, you can go there.
Grass moving, trees blowing, leaves falling, bird flying, and come augast 8th day/night/weather cycles and seasons that effect crops, gathering and skills.
When I typically think of a virtual world, I think of ambient noises, weather changes, elements of landscape movement like swaying trees or flowers and grass. Also, long view distances with the ability to explore unhindered by loading screens and free or mostly free of instancing.
But the game that most had me immersed was Precu SWG for it's gameplay elements and features. The ability to level something up by doing it, mix and match interests to create hybrid classes, interdependency and crafting depth, as well as the freedom to build, design and grow player cities really made it feel like a world to me.
I guess that goes to the heart of what the word 'virtual' means and it's really a subjective thing. Precu SWG felt like a very immersive or virtual world because it had the ability to suspend my sense of reality and invest and immerse myself in character.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I think for a game to really have that virtual world feeling it really only needs two major systems in place:
1. Housing
2. Non-combat classes/professions
Another big one that is important to many is:
3. Territorial control PvP (be it faction, guild, RvR, etc.)
These very simple criteria put games like UO, SWG, and EvE in their proper place as true "virtual worlds" - though the housing aspect of EvE is a bit... odd? Non-standard compared to say UO/SWG.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
For me the virtual world SWG stopped existing even before CU. I was greatly immersed in the game at first but after months of playing the 'world feeling' was eroded by the deficiencies of the game and it stopped feeling like a world to me.
Actually to me the orriginal EQ felt very much like a virtual world and less like a game, and they didn´t have any of those
Problem for me is i have a very hard time for myself to indentify what exactly gives me that virtuall world feeling, i however realise that games like GW2 really feel like games and not like worlds .
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
EVE online is the most fleshed out virtual "world" of any MMO. If any game emulated being an actual person in a living breathing universe, it's that game.
I think the biggest factor of creating a virtual world is to create a world, and not a zone. In zones every single piece of the background and environment is meant to accomplish something. Worlds where places exist simply for existing is what makes the difference in playing a game and being in a virtual world. That and having more things to do than just fighting things.
Pre-NGE SWG was the most recent "complete" virtual world MMO. It became a lot less of a virtual world after the themepark-ification of the NGE though.
EVE-Online is my second favourite virtual world. I would vote it number 1, but not while I'm only a spaceship in the game, lol.
MO had lots of promise as a virtual world candidate, but the development progress has been glacially slow, and frankly I've come to the conclusion that the tiny dev team simply doesn't have the skill and/or resources to deliver what they intended to.
As a lifelong "virtual world fan", I guess EQNext is my best hope, and that's a very faint hope indeed...
Problem for me is i have a very hard time for myself to indentify what exactly gives me that virtuall world feeling, i however realise that games like GW2 really feel like games and not like worlds .
Perhaps its the trend to have every aspect of a game itemized, tracked, displayed by a numerical value, and put into an achievement system. You cant escape the "game" so to speak. You cant explore over that hill without a message popping up on the screen saying "DISCOVERED THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL! +10 exploration points. Cash in your exploration points for exciting rewards!"
things like that run rampant in games these days, so trying to make it feel more organic is difficult with so many artificially imposed reward systems.
Nah .. the original EQ felt like a boring GAME to me.
Camping all day .. don't tell me sitting in a room with 50 other groups taking a number waiting so that you can kill the boss in 20 second with zero challenge is very virtual world like for you.
If so .. i am glad MMOs are more games like than virtual world like today.
Fully agree with you on this, the only thing i want to see in numbers are my own stats and the stats on my gear... But no floating damage numbers in the air or pop ups telling me i got Xp for some dumb actions..
We should get away of all those numbers, going back to hitpoint bars, maybe with a % in it, but nothing more. and get away with mob levels and come bring back the con colors, numbers are killing immersion, and immersion is needed for a virtual world feeling.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Problem for me is i have a very hard time for myself to indentify what exactly gives me that virtuall world feeling, i however realise that games like GW2 really feel like games and not like worlds .
Perhaps its the trend to have every aspect of a game itemized, tracked, displayed by a numerical value, and put into an achievement system. You cant escape the "game" so to speak. You cant explore over that hill without a message popping up on the screen saying "DISCOVERED THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL! +10 exploration points. Cash in your exploration points for exciting rewards!"
things like that run rampant in games these days, so trying to make it feel more organic is difficult with so many artificially imposed reward systems.
We could describe that aspect of Virtual Worldness like so:
If the world that a player occupies has content that doesn't relate to the player's progression in the world, which the player can choose to explore or participate in, then the world will feel more like a virtual world rather than a game world.
Does that sound OK?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Perhaps its the trend to have every aspect of a game itemized, tracked, displayed by a numerical value, and put into an achievement system. You cant escape the "game" so to speak. You cant explore over that hill without a message popping up on the screen saying "DISCOVERED THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL! +10 exploration points. Cash in your exploration points for exciting rewards!" things like that run rampant in games these days, so trying to make it feel more organic is difficult with so many artificially imposed reward systems.
Fully agree with you on this, the only thing i want to see in numbers are my own stats and the stats on my gear... But no floating damage numbers in the air or pop ups telling me i got Xp for some dumb actions..
We should get away of all those numbers, going back to hitpoint bars, maybe with a % in it, but nothing more. and get away with mob levels and come bring back the con colors, numbers are killing immersion, and immersion is needed for a virtual world feeling.
Im with you on that
No we shouldn't.
The reason we have all those numbers is by popular demand.
When WOW was first release, you don't see HP and hit numbers. People developed add-ons to estimate mob hp, and those become popular. Blizz can fight them .. so blizz joined them and put in the numbers.
Immersion and virtual world feeling is apparent not that important for many players.
U4 .. U6 .. or may be even U7.
At least in those SP games, i don't have gankers camping newbie spawn spot, and use l33t speak to insult you after they kill and loot you.
I would much rather play U6 than UO.
That's funny, I never knew that. Mobs in Wushu do not show HP, players don't show to other players either.
It really boils down to, for me, how the world "fits together." Does it make sense? Do the many varied aspects go hand in hand? Do the NPCs feel "alive?"
I do like BadSpock's first 2 examples. the first gives my character a "home" to call his own in the virtual world. The second means my character does not have to fight whenever he logs in (or appears).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The reason we have all those numbers is by popular demand.
When WOW was first release, you don't see HP and hit numbers. People developed add-ons to estimate mob hp, and those become popular. Blizz can fight them .. so blizz joined them and put in the numbers.
Immersion and virtual world feeling is apparent not that important for many players.
I dunno about that. Take Guild Wars 2 for example. This is currently the flagship mmo for esport style combat and wvw pvp. And everyone is going nuts over....kites. You dont think thats an obvious sign that people want their mmos to be more immersive? We take any hint of qol content like a glass of water in the sahara desert.
If immersion does not conflict with progression, or convenience .. sure.
Do you see lots of players asking to remove LFD because it is immersion breaking? Instead, people QQ about games without it. Look at what happen with TOR.
I dunno about that. Take Guild Wars 2 for example. This is currently the flagship mmo for esport style combat and wvw pvp. And everyone is going nuts over....kites. You dont think thats an obvious sign that people want their mmos to be more immersive? We take any hint of qol content like a glass of water in the sahara desert.
If immersion does not conflict with progression, or convenience .. sure.
Do you see lots of players asking to remove LFD because it is immersion breaking? Instead, people QQ about games without it. Look at what happen with TOR.
LFD tools are a themepark staple whether I like it or not haha. But yeah, people want that intangible feeling of being in a world. The best fantasy movies achieve that. And its not because they have the best action sequences. Its the attention to detail and the ability to create a believable environment.
Again, i am not disputing some immersion adds to enjoyment. However, i am also saying it is not that important in relative to other aspect of the game.
The LFD example is a primary example of convenience is more important than immersion.
I have no issue (and actually would welcome it) if devs put lots of details, and atmosphere in my game. I have a problem if they make the game unfun (to me) in the name of realism (like requiers me to walk 20 min before fighting anything).