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Originally posted by Wolfenpride The worst part about SoE's model I find is the lock/gold member requirement for high tier gear. Especially in Vanguard, where good gear is pretty accessible and really makes a difference in soloing performance. I'm not sure if they still do it, but iirc EQ2 also wouldn't let free players sell stuff on the market. That's a bit much if they still do that, but otherwise they've opened it up a good bit since they first started this model, and I prefer the option to just subscribe and get everything if I plan on seriously playing the game.
It looks like it. Also isn't the retricted gear more important in the eq games? Making it a more p2w style model?
Its a combination of two things.
1. (some) people posess this thing called self control, and are able to make concious decisions to participate or not participate in said cash shops.
2. Jobs. This is where you work, and you get paid for the work you do. They then give you something called money, which you spend on things like food, clothes, housing, entertainment, etc. Fora healthy portion of people with jobs, $15/mo really isnt a lot of money. So they dont consider these payment models to be some kind of scam, etc, like some of the people on here do.
Here is a list of things that cost more than an MMO subscription:
Movie Theater Ticket
1 weeks worth of gasoline
Dinner at just about any restaurant anywhere
A large pizza
A non name brand, walmart t-shirt
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
there is a way to to fix this model.
1) Subscribers dont need to buy cash shop, they get all of that in game.
2) Do not limit free players from progression to make them buy cash shop. Let the cash shop be boosts and fluff, no progression stuff.
3) Give bonus subscription days to anyone buying from the cash shop (subbers and freebies alike). Depending on how much money they spend on cash shop they get certain amount of subscription days as bonus. THis way if you dont buy cash shop you play the game with the traditional free way of playing, but if you buy cash shop you get sub days as bonus which will give you the subscribers status for the ammount of days earned. THis third point is very important and companies should start doing this to help their own models. It encourages people to both subscribe or invest in cash shop without being forced to pay or be left behind.
Originally posted by dejoblue Sorry, Blizzard wins here again. They are introducing XP potions and loot coins for sale in Asia and may bring them to the US, they are testing them out first. Like SOE does. Blizzard is also going to sell appearance items, like SOE does, starting with helms, among other things. Last I checked Blizzard charges $15 per month, requires a base game purchase and IIRC requires 2 expansions purchases to get up to date. The entire industry is moving this way with DLC being the first push. Once XBOXONE and PS4 have full streaming available I expect to see a LOT more f2p games pop up on that platform.
I liked the above comment. I've been examining this myself quite a bit lately. I've been a PC-only gamer since the end of the PS2-era until a few months ago when I finally got a 360. I've always heard about DLC but had never experienced it. So imagine my surprise upon finally checking out some DLC for the small 360 game library I have.
I remember thinking..."holy cow, this is B2P + cash shop monetization model." And from what I could tell in browsing 360's DLC section it is the Norm, not the exception. Everything from Fluff DLC to playable maps to unique weapons. Wow. Just wow. It is not just MMOs that are seeing change with the Asian F2P biz mentality. It's console too. I wonder how well that's going over with console-only gamers? If I recall correctly - as an example, you can't play every Halo multiplayer map unless you buy them - separately from the original box. Some are behind a paywall.
I've come to think that in some respects the monikers P2P/F2P/B2P are too vague to explain the variety of monetization models those 3 terms cover.
Look at the dispute that was in another thread over whose definition is the correct definition of those 3 terms:
Originally posted by Gallus85 Originally posted by Waterlily Originally posted by Gallus85 No I'm just educating you on what the terms mean and trying to drive home that you're wrong. F2P means having zero money requirement to enter the game, at any time.
So WoW is F2P since there are no restrictions to entering the game either, you can play WoW up to a certain point without paying a dime. By your definition WoW is F2P.
Stop trying to "educate me", please, and if you don't play the games you talk about, frankly stop quoting me.
I already listed the SOE games I play.
WoW recently went F2P, yes.
It used to be P2P (You could only play a trial for a few days), but now it's F2P. You can log into WoW at any time and play up to level 20 without spending any money.
So WoW by definition is now a F2P game, though probably the most restrictive F2P game on the market. (cap lvl 20 / 100)
I'm betting Gallus85 is one of the few people who claim WoW is a F2P game but at least he's consistent with his definition.
To me I break down game categories a bit differently.
I would say Wow is more correctly identified as an Unlimited Trial Account game. Everything is open to you up to level 20. A potential MMO player has a better idea of what he/she will be getting into when I explain it to them this way instead of using the F2P, B2P or Sub moniker.
SoE (from what I remember 2 years ago when I last checked them out) is an Unlimited Play with Varying Restrictions Account kind of game. It doesn't matter what kind of restriction it is. The operating principle in my mind is whether the account of all players has the same "rules" per account. No distinction is made by the publisher between the type of account a player has whether they buy something via "sub" or "cash shop" or not at all. Path of Exile best exemplifies this model in my opinion. The game has a dedicated fanbase and from what I can tell is well-supported financially by that base (anyone ever see all the Kripparian vids on YouTube about it? Grinding Gear is lucky. Pubs salivate at getting fans like him. They sell the game for you with zero expense to your bottom line.)
And even my 2 examples above don't cover the gamut of the business models being tried out these days. MMOs wouldn't be having these problems if 1) investors didn't see evidence that the exponential growth curve of the mmo playing market had passed it's peak. Plus 2) other markets (primarily mobile & social) have not yet discovered their respective "max number of paying gamers" potential. and 3) had grown so expensive that better RoI ratios is to be found in funding other kinds of games.
One small side note that has nothing to do with the above: I don't ever expect Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo ever being able to match Steam when it comes to game prices (much less discounts) for the simple fact that those companies have huge on-going costs that Valve doesn't have. A huge company with huge costs must constantly generate equally huge hits to cover those costs if they hope to continue to convince Wall Street that their stock is still a good place to sink money to make more money. Otherwise you'll see their stock tank and calls begin to arise from Wall Street for a needed change to the Executive team.
Playing Now: The Secret World, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter
Playing soon: Landmark beta, Swordman beta
Originally posted by AG-Vuk Yeah , PWI/Cryptic although F2P is extremely overpriced. Once you order you get no receipt of what you purchased and there's no log or method of purchase history. There's no way to dispute a purchase unless you keep meticulous records and keep a screen shot record of every dime spent.
Actually that is not true. I've received an email receipt of my purchases everytime. Also you can log into your account on PWI's site and in your account history you'll actually see a running log of all purchases that have ever been made by you plus the date they were made + the amount and a tracking number.
A few things to explain why they're still in business
Real-time radiosityNvidia PhysX (SDK 3.2)Motion blurFully Flexible Time of Day SystemEye adaptation & HDR lightingSupport for Microsoft DirectX 9It's pretty damn impressive what the Forgelight engine is capable of. Moreover it's their engine to use, not a licensed engine from another developer. I mean you can't deny that Planet Side 2 looks pretty.
Originally posted by Waterlily While people argue about P2P and F2P. (I greatly prefer P2P) SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P. Their games are called F2P, but they include: -$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities -the buying of expansions -cash shop So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P. Tell me again why this company is still in business.
agree with you that I strongly dislike SOE's payment module. However I really like Eq2, I think its one of the best games on the market, so they get my money.
I am glad you see the truth behind Smedley not SOE.This should be mentioned more and more by MANY people because yes there are people inside SOE who read forums.
I have tried over and over to figure Smedley out,nothing he does makes sense from a players stand point ,always seems to be a SOE thing and nothing more.
This is what i think goes through Smed's head ..lol.That rhymes .
I believe he figures that rather than try to go big time with 5 million players ,he figures it is a better overall pl;an to cater to less that spend more.It gives a bigger profit margin but of course lessens the chance to make it rich.When you try to cater to MANY players you have to run tons of servers buy up tons of blocks of bandwidth every month,tons of GM's,tons of support calls.Then they never know if half those players will be gone one month to the next.
However when they have those that are willing to spend with no care for their pocket book,it lets SOE know they have those people as super loyal fans.This allows them to operate with a VERY small overhead but still make a higher profit margin equivalent to having maybe 2/3/4/5x more players.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Hrimnir Its a combination of two things. 1. (some) people posess this thing called self control, and are able to make concious decisions to participate or not participate in said cash shops. 2. Jobs. This is where you work, and you get paid for the work you do. They then give you something called money, which you spend on things like food, clothes, housing, entertainment, etc. Fora healthy portion of people with jobs, $15/mo really isnt a lot of money. So they dont consider these payment models to be some kind of scam, etc, like some of the people on here do. Here is a list of things that cost more than an MMO subscription: Movie Theater Ticket 1 weeks worth of gasoline Dinner at just about any restaurant anywhere A large pizza A non name brand, walmart t-shirt Etc
It is not about whether one can afford it. It is about the free alternatives.
When i go out with my wife, any decent date dinner is $100 or more, and special occasion is more like $200-300.
So $15 is not a lot. Heck, a hot toy Avenger figure (which i collect) costs $200+. However, if i can get the same amount of fun for free, why would I even want to pay $15? I won't even pay $5 (which i drop without a second thought on iOS games).
It is the competition, and perception of values. Very seldom is about affordability.
- Because they are turning a profit.
- Because they give their customers more flexible options for payment.
- Blizzard is all sub-based, not f2p at all AND they have a cash shop - wouldn't that make them greater slime by your defintion?
- If you are paying a subscription, but then cannot resist also buying from the cash shop.....is the problem really with SOE or your own shopping habits?
Originally posted by JustARandomPanda Originally posted by AG-Vuk Yeah , PWI/Cryptic although F2P is extremely overpriced. Once you order you get no receipt of what you purchased and there's no log or method of purchase history. There's no way to dispute a purchase unless you keep meticulous records and keep a screen shot record of every dime spent.
Perhaps I misread something in this thread , or you're just plain wrong.
My Nephew and I were playing Neverwinter and he bought a bag from the cash shop. He was messing around and resized the bag so his inventory was the way he liked it and somehow ONE 80 point (lowbie) crit potion got bugged. He did not realize it at first and used up the stack of potions and used the bugged potion several times. One he noticed the bugged potion he put in a bug report and in game GM's popped in a bit later and they tried to figure out what was going on and if it was repeatable or not. Eventually the GM's deleted all his potions that were in his bag and it looked like that fixed the issue. A few weeks later he get's an email telling him he's going to have a 30 day suspension since he utilized a bug in game. Really? After doing the bug report and talking to GM's in game about the problem they are going to ban him for 30 days? Anyway... he eventually gets someone on line and things get heated and he mentions that he may want a refund. I know... Perfect World and refund = permaban, but he did not know that at the time. Well they banned him from Neverwinter and all the other Perfect World games he had investments in. He did manage to get his Founders money back from Neverwinter and some of the coin back from the other games since he went to Paypal to get the charges reversed. But he's now perma banned from Perfect World games. They have not just banned his email but they have banned his IP address. He currently has a static IP address for his school work.... (don't ask me why it's a static IP I don't know, but it is).
I'll take SOE over Perfect World anyday.
Originally posted by Iadien A subscription does not unlock levels, classes, or races (at least in the EQ games). everquest everquest2
Classes and Races in Eq2 were locked behind cash shop purchase or subscription until just recently. They didnt change that policy IMO until all those from who they could get more from for said classes/races had already bought them.
They Still lock gear and ability upgrades and AH use for $ and expacs are Still Full Price with the latest NOT including previous expacs as they had done before "F2P".
Also in EQ2 if you go the sub route to unlock gear then let your sub lapse , when you login as F2P your gear in unequip and requires you to unlock through cash shop.
IMO any gear you get during subscription should permanently unlocked from that point onward no matter if you go F2P.
I am an SOE fanboi.
For $20/month you can get an All Access Pass which gives you GOLD account, fully unlocked status on EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, DCUO, PS2, Wizardry Online, Dragon's Prophet, SW:Clone Wars, Free Realms and any other game I missed.
PLUS 500SC each month.
PLUS 5 free packs of your choice of LON packs each month.
Sure there are expansion and DLC to buy for EVERYTHING but that means they are developing the game still. If I get bored I can move on to another game and come back whenever, come and go as I please. I have been doing this for years with EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard.
The worst thing they do is sell XP potions and leveling gear, not raid gear, leveling gear.
Sure I have been mad at them. I was using WineSkin to play EQ and EQ2 on Mac and they posted that they were banning for that because of botters, so I stopped and unsubbed until I got back on Windows. I let them know. But other than that I have had a few customer service encounters and they were all handled appropriately and to my satisfaction. I have actually bought the wrong things a few times and they take the item back and credit me the SC.
They have like 12 games you can play the crap out of and see if you like with very little restrictions, sure you aren't gonna be a hardcore raider for free but you can see how groups and mechanics work. What do you get in WoW? Deadmines with the free cap at level 20?
So all this crying is over someone with an axe to grind or that cant afford or doesn't want to pay.
In my honest opinion.
Originally posted by AG-Vuk Originally posted by JustARandomPanda Originally posted by AG-Vuk Yeah , PWI/Cryptic although F2P is extremely overpriced. Once you order you get no receipt of what you purchased and there's no log or method of purchase history. There's no way to dispute a purchase unless you keep meticulous records and keep a screen shot record of every dime spent.
Ah. Was not aware of that thread. I was referring to purchases of Zen. I received emailed receipt of the Zen amount purchased but not what the Zen was spent on or where. Yes, in that case that thread is true. I misunderstood.
Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Iadien A subscription does not unlock levels, classes, or races (at least in the EQ games). everquest everquest2
I know this, but it is no longer like that, and thus doesn't really matter.
Originally posted by Iadien Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Iadien A subscription does not unlock levels, classes, or races (at least in the EQ games). everquest everquest2
Good to see some intelligent thought processes being applied here.
I don't know you but I think I like you.
Originally posted by TribeofOne
What is the problem? Jealousy?
Are you going to be mad too when the phone you bought last year is free today?
Originally posted by evilastro The problem SoE had is that they had vocal subscribers who did not want to lose anything with f2p and did not want free players to be on par with subscribers. Also SoE were early adopters, long before good models like Rift, Aion and TSW existed. I think EQ2 will adopt a Rift style model in the future as they continue to adapt.
The balance point is the content and updates you get. Sure, each of the games you listed gives you more for free but EQ2 updates way more than those games. Rift may be the exception but they only recently switched, meaning they have a bulk of content saved to keep promoting.
Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Iadien Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Iadien A subscription does not unlock levels, classes, or races (at least in the EQ games). everquest everquest2
Dammit I better go cry to MS i paid for fallout 3, Assassins creed 2 and now they just gave it away free to millions of players.
Just wondering do you go to best buy and complain the TV you bought last year is half the price now ? Or the car dealer that your 2011 is only worth half of what you paid for it ?
Also you implied you don't get past expansions with EQ,EQ2 that is not true. The 40$ charge gives you all 19 of them and when a new one comes out that 40$ will get you all 20. Now hey if you already have 19 it doesn't seem like a great deal, but it is for new players. In wow catching up there is a barrier in EQ there is not.
Oh and you can use Tier 1 Raid gear from the latest expansion with F2P.
This hasn't been true for awhile now.
The previous expansions for EQ1 and EQ2 were announced as the last paid for expansions.