Camping worked well with eq because eq's grind was xp grind combined with named grind for drops. Other mmorpgs are not build on xp grind, but other grinds (grind points, grind dungeons, grind dailys, grind dynamic events, grind pvp points, continue on your own).
I enjoyed camping very much when I was at one, and I hated it when I spend 30 minutes to run to a zone just to hear "Hand/Warlord is camped". I loved a good camp grind after a day at work, talking with the group while killing stuff, spiced with moments of adrenaline rush from overpulling.
Camping for a quest item was a good way of taking in and really experience the world, and giving the brain some rest once inawhile builds immersion and also allows You to plan things, learn tactics, talk to people. At times it would be boring, but even the worst 20 hour grinds for an epic drop would be all worth it when I finally got the drop (feeling of accomplishment)... I can't explain it, but occasionally beeing bored is good.
Anyways, camping is tied to special game mechanics, so do I want it back ? I think the question is more, will we ever see those game mechanics again. The last mmorpg I did just a little amount of camping in was WoW where I camped for a special hunter pet (back when it mattered).
Camping mobs can work if it rewards one of the following play styles:
1. Socialize - If it facilitates players to talk with each other and share, while waiting for a mob to spawn
2. Killer- Waiting in one spot allows for more opportunity to kill bigger and more interesting stuff
3. Achiever- Waiting in one spot allows the player to achieve something that most, less patient players, can achieve.
4. Explorer- Waiting in one spot long enough might reveal a clue or open up a new area seen by very few
Otherwise, it will fail.
Personally, while camping in EQ for years, I found it to be quite social-able until everyone figured out the exact/precise perfect way to kill stuff , and it became less of a social occasion.
Maybe the key is providing a truly random reward for campin an area, but only allow you to camp something once a day, so its special.
The OP is not talking about sitting and waiting for rare spawns, they're talking about sitting in a room with respawning mobs and pulling them over and over.
I played DAoC where there was no silly waiting for boss mobs.
To be honest, when i first read this .. the impression is EQ camping, where waiting in queue is a large part of. That certainly turns me off.
However, if you are talking about not moving, and just kill, kill, and kill, then it *may* work for me, as long as the combat is fun.
The EQ model certainly will NOT work since you are fighting one-ies and two-ies and there is little tactical variations.
Lastly, the down-side of this type of camping is the static nature of terrain. I would probably like a dungeon crawl better just because the terrain (or layout) is changing and if combat takes that into account, it is more fun.
That's why I liked how DAoC encouraged you to move around. The longer a specific area had gone without anyone pulling from it, the more camp bonus xp it gave you.
The question, of course, is whether there are too many people to crowd the camp spot.
There is no reason this has to be done in an open world. If you just want to wait for spawn and kill, doing it in a group in an instance is the same. Even better, because there is zero chance of the need to share with anyone.
And of course the question is why waiting for respawn (assuming that it is fast and no dead time) is more fun than running from the beginning to the end of a dungeon, where you can also kill hordes of stuff?
Somebody else said it, and I want to reiterate my approval: Mobs need to start dropping loot specific to that mob.
Take Guild Wars 2. Aside from getting the dungeon-completion bonus to spend on getting that dungeon's armor after so many runs, what's the point of doing one dungeon over another? Gold gain. And why go to any dungeon that isn't CoF? Well, if you've already gotten the armor-look you want, there isn't. You can get an exotic from any chest in any dungeon. So you'll always go to the fastest one.
That's why dungeons and rare mobs need specific loot. It acts as incentive. Why go to a nightmarish dungeon? Because you have a chance of getting a very rare and expensive item that's only available at that dungeon.
It's a way to make mobs valuable again, and to encourage players not to take the path of least resistance all the time.
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....
Except thats not true... There was zero lag in noninstanced dungeons in DAoC.
You can't be serious.
I am totally serious. DAoC didn't start to lag until you got about 200 people on creen at once.
Instancing has never, EVER been about technical limitations. Especially not now. PS2 and Darkfall prove instancing is not needed for performance.
I don't doubt that you genuinely believe that. I also don't doubt that you feel that way because you really aren't familiar with how instancing has been used outside of dungeons. Here are a few:
Guild Wars instances the public town area, to limit it to 100 players in an instance.
Earth and Beyond instanced the new player zones to reduce the load at release.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....
Except thats not true... There was zero lag in noninstanced dungeons in DAoC.
You can't be serious.
I am totally serious. DAoC didn't start to lag until you got about 200 people on creen at once.
Instancing has never, EVER been about technical limitations. Especially not now. PS2 and Darkfall prove instancing is not needed for performance.
I don't doubt that you genuinely believe that. I also don't doubt that you feel that way because you really aren't familiar with how instancing has been used outside of dungeons. Here are a few:
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....
Except thats not true... There was zero lag in noninstanced dungeons in DAoC.
You can't be serious.
I am totally serious. DAoC didn't start to lag until you got about 200 people on creen at once.
Instancing has never, EVER been about technical limitations. Especially not now. PS2 and Darkfall prove instancing is not needed for performance.
I don't doubt that you genuinely believe that. I also don't doubt that you feel that way because you really aren't familiar with how instancing has been used outside of dungeons. Here are a few:
Guild Wars instances the public town area, to limit it to 100 players in an instance.
Earth and Beyond instanced the new player zones to reduce the load at release.
Yeh. Marvel Heroes has serious performance issues in public zones, particularly when all the players are fighting a single world boss.
There is no reason not to use instances.
If you mean channels of zones I agree, bad performance is annoying and not every engine is created equal.
If you mean private instancing then all the players wouldn't be able to attack a world boss, which if there were so many there to cause lag insinuates they liked it.
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....
Except thats not true... There was zero lag in noninstanced dungeons in DAoC.
You can't be serious.
I am totally serious. DAoC didn't start to lag until you got about 200 people on creen at once.
Instancing has never, EVER been about technical limitations. Especially not now. PS2 and Darkfall prove instancing is not needed for performance.
And Darkfall... please don't make me laugh. The performance of that game is abyssal as soon as you have more than 20 people on screen.
I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.
Nobody want to gimp their progress just to bring back old memories. I'm sure what's being discussed is a game where it's the best viable way to progress for everyone.
I wasn't gimping my progress. I was actually doing it for better gear, which is what someone in this thread asked for.
We'll use WoW because it is one most people feel it is useless to mob camp on. Xp was decent, not as good as quests but still good, coin was decent, and they were named boss mobs that have higher chances of a rare loot which is why I was camping them.
You are if doing quests is a faster way to progress regardless if you liked what you were doing better
To the OP: I'm not sure I could handle being stationary again but I sure do miss spending a lot of time in one dungeon running into other people not in my group
So unless I am doing the fastest most efficient method of leveling I am gimping my progress?
By definition, yes
Truly gimping yourself, would be rushing through the content that is there.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
EQ and FFXI are still there actually. You can camp all you want, for the record :-p.
Ah, the dumbest argument in the book...
No, the games as we knew and loved them have long ago been patched away.
They've been patched away because the majority of players didn't like them like that. Why is that so hard for you people to understand?
Oh we understand it all right, we just do not like it and are still disappointed by the shortsightedness of the developers. I could make a personal attack here but I will leave that to you.
It wasn't shortsighted, catering to the majority of players is what allowed MMOs to go from a tiny niche genre to a massive mainstream one. It made developers billions. What they did was by no means wrong and if you feel you have to resort to personal insults, that means you've got nothing.
I think this thread does a good job pointing out how MMO's focal point is in the social aspect of the game. The somewhat casualness of camping is something I somewhat miss, despite the disadvantages, it was still fun hanging out with people you enjoy socializing with and I think this is something that is terribly missed today.
But this is something you can still do today without camping. You could always do it. You don't have to have mandated down-time to talk to people you enjoy being around. I fail to see why so many people think that this bad mechanic is the only way to get a favorable social result.
Aside from the few people that "camp" general chat most people want to be doing something while they socialize. MMOs do a great job of this, too good a job. Now the doing something involves just me, myself and I because I can progress just as easily without the hassle. No one said it was the only way, just the only one so far to get results.
Yet back when I used to play, I could solo and chat at the same time and I often did. Today, people can multitask in games and be social somewhere outside of the game, nobody ever considers that.
Many players are too focused on their own progress and generally won't do anything for the sake of actually doing it. Every second spent has to have some reward and I sadly think previous MMO's has trivialized the whole experience down to that.
Yet isn't that the choice of the individual? If that's what other people want to do, what business is it of yours? You can stop and shoot the breeze any time you want to, it's your choice. You have no right to force your choices on anyone else.
Again, socializing within playing the game. Sure, no one should force another to participate but the common gameplay mechanics actually discourage interaction. This just doesn't make sense in an MMO setting.
No it doesn't. The only reason anyone ever socialized before was because it was a niche genre that drew in a specific type of person and when people have something in common, they tend to talk about it. That's not the case today, MMOs are mainstream and draw in many different kinds of people. Most of the time, the people sitting next to you have nothing whatsoever in common, therefore they don't talk. The only way to go back to the old way is to actively discriminate against the majority of people playing MMOs, which is a non-starter.
Now I don't mean to be grim but my favorite MMO's of all time to this day is still Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies because of how well you can casually play the game and socialize with others. Not many other MMO's since then allowed you to organize and build your own towns and cities or provide that degree of freedom within the environment.
You can casually play the game and socialize with anyone you want to in any game out there, what are you talking about?
He's talking about actually building a community with structures and player organization, not just hanging out at the auction house.
He can talk about anything he wants, there's still no evidence that you'd get any better community with the kind of player base that we have in MMOs today. That's the problem that you people don't seem to understand, these are not the old school MMOs, they have fundamentally changed, not because of the developers, but because they are mainstream and appeal to an entirely different audience. You simply cannot put the genie back in the bottle and the sooner you people realize that, the better. Deal with the reality of what is, not the fantasy of what you want to be.
Now its all about combat and combat mechanics and everything else is just lost or trivialized. What I believe separates great MMO's from the good ones today is which ones provides the best social tools and group activities IMO.
It just appears that too many MMO's are trying to cater to as many people as possible rather than trying to focus their game onto a target audience.
That's always been the way it's worked, sorry. Businesses are in business to make money and they do that by appealing to the largest audience possible. It's just that there is a larger audience available since MMOs went mainstream.
True, there are more players and if you consider the tenure of the online populace in general you can see why MMOs can suffer social wise. Companies are in it to make money but they have tried by copying the MMO with the largest audiance possible, which itself lost 12% of it's paying base this year. I have no seeing eye but I have a feeling that things are shifting. Making money for an MMO means keeping people playing it. When players feel more invested in an MMO they stay and the best way to accomplish that, minus good gameplay of course, is other people.
Sure, WoW eventually lost players after having more players for nearly 10 years than every other MMO on the planet combined. The fact that development on any MMO that came out this year started 5 years ago when they were still an unstoppable force seems to be lost on you. Things are not shifting, people are still going to be people and when WoW finally falls, there just will be no big dog, there will be hundreds of smaller MMOs. You might get more variation then, but the overwhelming majority will still be making WoW-like games because they demonstrably work and make money. Most developers don't care if their game folds after 6 months, they've already made back all of their money and a healthy profit and they're using it as seed money for their next project. If the game lasts a year, that's a bonus, but it's not necessary, none of these developers are going hungry, they're making a boatload of money while the game is open and are working on the next one. If they didn't like the profits, they'd stop making games, wouldn't they?
What, in your opinion, would be a good design for a rare spawn?
- Not always spawning at the same place, but rather a rare occurrence of a type of mob that can spawn anywhere in the world where such mobs are present.
- The mob wanders randomly, and not following a specific path, and also not restricted to a specific area.
- A "tracking" skill which would warn you when such a mob is near, and then allow you to track it and find it, a bit like archeology works in WoW.
- Unique abilities that makes it challenging and fun to fight.
Basically, a challenging and rare mob you find while you're playing outdoors, rather than a mob you camp waiting for it to magically appear at a predefined place. A mob you hunt instead of camping it.
Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't really know if that would address a ton of the issues.
Not always spawning in the same place is nice and all, but I can see how a lot of people would find this annoying if they are heavily camping it (imagine you are camping a mob every day and it spawns randomly. That can get very annoying quickly)
I think the wandering randomly is pretty cool, but again the same issues persist as the last point.
Of course, the tracking would realistically make those previous points a non-issue, so I could definitely get behind this concept and the previous two.
Unique abilities should be in every boss fight, so I'm in complete agreement.
The real question is more in terms of like; what should the spawn time be, what should the drops be like, what are the respawns rate be like etc.
Most of your ideas though are pretty good when added in all together
I see no reason camping cannot work. Nothing saying it has to be the only means of advancement.
Could still have the soloability and fast paced features for those that crave it.......and just as easily have campable points throughout the world that perhaps have mobs that give better than average experience, various difficulties within the same camp point, and'/or rare spawns that could possibly spawn with their own varying timers so they aren't so predictable.
And please don't try to bring the argument of "Well if players can do things faster and easier, no one will do the camps because it would hinder their progression". There are players who enjoy a bit of a slow down and prefer to not always be in the rat race to get to cap to grind end game for gear that has no purpose beyond waiting for it to be obsolete the next expansion or simply to be "look at me" pieces.
Believe it or not...some people enjoy camping. And believe it or not...if you don't like camping, that is fine, just don't do it and do what you enjoy instead. Simple solution isn't it.
Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them. And dev's CAN have multiple options like this that are viable and pull in other crowds ...in the same game. They just need to grow a pair and do it and stop being lazy and making the same game over and over with different titles to turn a quick buck off of the lemmings (Meaning game jumpers that lunge for the newest title on the market with little research or thought...then complain about it). There are many I see on this site and others clamoring for such things...so not like it wouldn't be used.
I see no reason camping cannot work. Nothing saying it has to be the only means of advancement.
Could still have the soloability and fast paced features for those that crave it.......and just as easily have campable points throughout the world that perhaps have mobs that give better than average experience, various difficulties within the same camp point, and'/or rare spawns that could possibly spawn with their own varying timers so they aren't so predictable.
And please don't try to bring the argument of "Well if players can do things faster and easier, no one will do the camps because it would hinder their progression". There are players who enjoy a bit of a slow down and prefer to not always be in the rat race to get to cap to grind end game for gear that has no purpose beyond waiting for it to be obsolete the next expansion or simply to be "look at me" pieces.
Believe it or not...some people enjoy camping. And believe it or not...if you don't like camping, that is fine, just don't do it and do what you enjoy instead. Simple solution isn't it.
Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them. And dev's CAN have multiple options like this that are viable and pull in other crowds ...in the same game. They just need to grow a pair and do it and stop being lazy and making the same game over and over with different titles to turn a quick buck off of the lemmings (Meaning game jumpers that lunge for the newest title on the market with little research or thought...then complain about it). There are many I see on this site and others clamoring for such things...so not like it wouldn't be used.
5 stars for your post. Couldn't have said better myself. Camping would be a nice OPTION, I never once said it should be the ONLY way to progress in a MMO.
The Endless Mob Grind was the absolute worst part of early MMORPGs. I didn't play EQ1 specifically, but in the ~10 other MMORPGs I did play it was some of the most rudimentary and dull gameplay I'd ever experienced in gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.
It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.
I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.
It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.
No kidding.. Camps were fun and always exciting, especially when an ADD pops or a wondering mob jump in.. There were times I was healing and down to 20% mana, Then an ADD pops and the puller already tagged one. If we had CC, we were OK, but sometimes we just had the puller kite the mob around until we take care of the ADD.. I loved it when you're in a zone with multiple camp locations and a BOSS spawns.. Immediately someone yells it out and we all leave our camps to join up in raid form and go after the boss... It's impossible to do that if all the groups are in their own private instances.. From where I sit, the past benefits that came from instancing wasn't worth the trade off..
Instancing + Quest hubs = good bye social community..
I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.
It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.
No kidding.. Camps were fun and always exciting, especially when an ADD pops or a wondering mob jump in.. There were times I was healing and down to 20% mana, Then an ADD pops and the puller already tagged one. If we had CC, we were OK, but sometimes we just had the puller kite the mob around until we take care of the ADD.. I loved it when you're in a zone with multiple camp locations and a BOSS spawns.. Immediately someone yells it out and we all leave our camps to join up in raid form and go after the boss... It's impossible to do that if all the groups are in their own private instances.. From where I sit, the past benefits that came from instancing wasn't worth the trade off..
Instancing + Quest hubs = good bye social community..
I really question the validity of people who claim that a boss popping in the middle of their leveling or whatever to be any sort of fun. Its almost always JUST an inconvenience.
I thought about the mechanics of spawn camping vs dungeoning on my feet for the past oh, about 10 years now, I'm kinda ready to just chill at a camp again.
Think about it: you go to an area, group up, pick a campsite and just chill there pulling mobs to your spot.
Maybe change things up a little from the early days of EQ such as:
1) Kill X mobs in X amount of time quests or "scalp" style turn-in quests
2)Random boss/named spawns
3)Random multi-mob spawns...think you've got the spawn broken? Put in a random chance for 4 mobs to spawn where 1 normally does.
4)Remember the cool places you used to camp in EQ? It could be a kitchen, a throne room, a campfire, etc. Developers could really liven it up with some visually interesting camp spots.
5)"Hold the line" camps where you rain fire on a sea of orcs trying to cross the moat
Honestly none of this would require a massive re-coding of any current MMO. Pump up the spawns in a given area and let people have at it. Unlike the days of EQ you could still have the normal quest-quest-quest for exp path of current MMOs; this would just give players another alternate way of gaining levels.
Do you remember not being able to get your epic because your mob was camped 24/7 by guilds on rotation with a calender set up?
Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them.
Sure. You can camp in WOW now. No one is stopping you. The option is there.
True. But the difference is...
1. I Played WoW 4 years ago and won't go back...as it's even more solo friendly then it was before.
2. Due to the solo friendliness...I wouldn't call it camping when you can pull an entire camp in WoW and massacre them in most cases without dying.
1) Then go to another MMO that has spawns. There is nothing preventing you to sit around, and just kill.
2) uh? That is the definitely of camping. And i doubt you can do what you claim. I would love to see that. WOW is designed to have small number of pull. I doubt (unless you are a pally), you can pull 10 mobs and survive.
2) uh? That is the definitely of camping. And i doubt you can do what you claim. I would love to see that. WOW is designed to have small number of pull. I doubt (unless you are a pally), you can pull 10 mobs and survive.
you actually physically cant pull an entire zone. At a certain distance mobs automatically reset.
Comments
Camping worked well with eq because eq's grind was xp grind combined with named grind for drops. Other mmorpgs are not build on xp grind, but other grinds (grind points, grind dungeons, grind dailys, grind dynamic events, grind pvp points, continue on your own).
I enjoyed camping very much when I was at one, and I hated it when I spend 30 minutes to run to a zone just to hear "Hand/Warlord is camped". I loved a good camp grind after a day at work, talking with the group while killing stuff, spiced with moments of adrenaline rush from overpulling.
Camping for a quest item was a good way of taking in and really experience the world, and giving the brain some rest once inawhile builds immersion and also allows You to plan things, learn tactics, talk to people. At times it would be boring, but even the worst 20 hour grinds for an epic drop would be all worth it when I finally got the drop (feeling of accomplishment)... I can't explain it, but occasionally beeing bored is good.
Anyways, camping is tied to special game mechanics, so do I want it back ? I think the question is more, will we ever see those game mechanics again. The last mmorpg I did just a little amount of camping in was WoW where I camped for a special hunter pet (back when it mattered).
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Camping mobs can work if it rewards one of the following play styles:
1. Socialize - If it facilitates players to talk with each other and share, while waiting for a mob to spawn
2. Killer- Waiting in one spot allows for more opportunity to kill bigger and more interesting stuff
3. Achiever- Waiting in one spot allows the player to achieve something that most, less patient players, can achieve.
4. Explorer- Waiting in one spot long enough might reveal a clue or open up a new area seen by very few
Otherwise, it will fail.
Personally, while camping in EQ for years, I found it to be quite social-able until everyone figured out the exact/precise perfect way to kill stuff , and it became less of a social occasion.
Maybe the key is providing a truly random reward for campin an area, but only allow you to camp something once a day, so its special.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
The question, of course, is whether there are too many people to crowd the camp spot.
There is no reason this has to be done in an open world. If you just want to wait for spawn and kill, doing it in a group in an instance is the same. Even better, because there is zero chance of the need to share with anyone.
And of course the question is why waiting for respawn (assuming that it is fast and no dead time) is more fun than running from the beginning to the end of a dungeon, where you can also kill hordes of stuff?
Somebody else said it, and I want to reiterate my approval: Mobs need to start dropping loot specific to that mob.
Take Guild Wars 2. Aside from getting the dungeon-completion bonus to spend on getting that dungeon's armor after so many runs, what's the point of doing one dungeon over another? Gold gain. And why go to any dungeon that isn't CoF? Well, if you've already gotten the armor-look you want, there isn't. You can get an exotic from any chest in any dungeon. So you'll always go to the fastest one.
That's why dungeons and rare mobs need specific loot. It acts as incentive. Why go to a nightmarish dungeon? Because you have a chance of getting a very rare and expensive item that's only available at that dungeon.
It's a way to make mobs valuable again, and to encourage players not to take the path of least resistance all the time.
I don't doubt that you genuinely believe that. I also don't doubt that you feel that way because you really aren't familiar with how instancing has been used outside of dungeons. Here are a few:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeh. Marvel Heroes has serious performance issues in public zones, particularly when all the players are fighting a single world boss.
There is no reason not to use instances.
If you mean channels of zones I agree, bad performance is annoying and not every engine is created equal.
If you mean private instancing then all the players wouldn't be able to attack a world boss, which if there were so many there to cause lag insinuates they liked it.
And you conveniently fail to mention Planetside.
Also, you must have never ever played Darkfall.
Truly gimping yourself, would be rushing through the content that is there.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It wasn't shortsighted, catering to the majority of players is what allowed MMOs to go from a tiny niche genre to a massive mainstream one. It made developers billions. What they did was by no means wrong and if you feel you have to resort to personal insults, that means you've got nothing.
No surprise there.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't really know if that would address a ton of the issues.
Not always spawning in the same place is nice and all, but I can see how a lot of people would find this annoying if they are heavily camping it (imagine you are camping a mob every day and it spawns randomly. That can get very annoying quickly)
I think the wandering randomly is pretty cool, but again the same issues persist as the last point.
Of course, the tracking would realistically make those previous points a non-issue, so I could definitely get behind this concept and the previous two.
Unique abilities should be in every boss fight, so I'm in complete agreement.
The real question is more in terms of like; what should the spawn time be, what should the drops be like, what are the respawns rate be like etc.
Most of your ideas though are pretty good when added in all together
I see no reason camping cannot work. Nothing saying it has to be the only means of advancement.
Could still have the soloability and fast paced features for those that crave it.......and just as easily have campable points throughout the world that perhaps have mobs that give better than average experience, various difficulties within the same camp point, and'/or rare spawns that could possibly spawn with their own varying timers so they aren't so predictable.
And please don't try to bring the argument of "Well if players can do things faster and easier, no one will do the camps because it would hinder their progression". There are players who enjoy a bit of a slow down and prefer to not always be in the rat race to get to cap to grind end game for gear that has no purpose beyond waiting for it to be obsolete the next expansion or simply to be "look at me" pieces.
Believe it or not...some people enjoy camping. And believe it or not...if you don't like camping, that is fine, just don't do it and do what you enjoy instead. Simple solution isn't it.
Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them. And dev's CAN have multiple options like this that are viable and pull in other crowds ...in the same game. They just need to grow a pair and do it and stop being lazy and making the same game over and over with different titles to turn a quick buck off of the lemmings (Meaning game jumpers that lunge for the newest title on the market with little research or thought...then complain about it). There are many I see on this site and others clamoring for such things...so not like it wouldn't be used.
Sure. You can camp in WOW now. No one is stopping you. The option is there.
5 stars for your post. Couldn't have said better myself. Camping would be a nice OPTION, I never once said it should be the ONLY way to progress in a MMO.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Spawn camping is multibox paradise.
Nice idea, but many flaws.
True. But the difference is...
1. I Played WoW 4 years ago and won't go back...as it's even more solo friendly then it was before.
2. Due to the solo friendliness...I wouldn't call it camping when you can pull an entire camp in WoW and massacre them in most cases without dying.
The Endless Mob Grind was the absolute worst part of early MMORPGs. I didn't play EQ1 specifically, but in the ~10 other MMORPGs I did play it was some of the most rudimentary and dull gameplay I'd ever experienced in gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.
It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.
No kidding.. Camps were fun and always exciting, especially when an ADD pops or a wondering mob jump in.. There were times I was healing and down to 20% mana, Then an ADD pops and the puller already tagged one. If we had CC, we were OK, but sometimes we just had the puller kite the mob around until we take care of the ADD.. I loved it when you're in a zone with multiple camp locations and a BOSS spawns.. Immediately someone yells it out and we all leave our camps to join up in raid form and go after the boss... It's impossible to do that if all the groups are in their own private instances.. From where I sit, the past benefits that came from instancing wasn't worth the trade off..
Instancing + Quest hubs = good bye social community..
I really question the validity of people who claim that a boss popping in the middle of their leveling or whatever to be any sort of fun. Its almost always JUST an inconvenience.
Do you remember not being able to get your epic because your mob was camped 24/7 by guilds on rotation with a calender set up?
Fix that and I might be on board.
1) Then go to another MMO that has spawns. There is nothing preventing you to sit around, and just kill.
2) uh? That is the definitely of camping. And i doubt you can do what you claim. I would love to see that. WOW is designed to have small number of pull. I doubt (unless you are a pally), you can pull 10 mobs and survive.
you actually physically cant pull an entire zone. At a certain distance mobs automatically reset.