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PVP only games are guaranteed to fail

2

Comments

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,329Member Uncommon

    What about planetside 2 and the original planetside then, even though there was critique on the gameplay the second one is still going strong. Plus a whole other number of MOBA games that you didn't mention, where the little PvE can only be called to be a function of PvP, not that I'm saying MOBAs are MMOs.

    It isn't logical to say that PvP MMOs are doomed to fail honestly. PvP multiplayer matches are pretty much the most common thing played in games overall, just look at the entire FPS world. Why would people suddenly get turned off if it happens to take place in an MMO environment?

    PvP MMOs just need to conform to a few rules like an equal playing field, reliable ways to get into the action and delicate balancing that are hard to adhere to. Many games out there just fail to get that right.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • TheMaahesTheMaahes Marlborough, MAPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Romanjisan

    Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

    When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

    Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

    If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

     

    "You think to challenge me, pitiful human? I, the bane of empires. the father of pain? Let me educate you; I need a new pet..."

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by TheMaahes
    Originally posted by Romanjisan

    Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

    When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

    Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

    If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

     

    "You think to challenge me, pitiful human? I, the bane of empires. the father of pain? Let me educate you; I need a new pet..."

    "Step aside heretic, this one has already been placed under inquisitorial custody pending an arco-flagelation ceremony. If you still need a pet he will be suitably formed for such next you meet him."

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,010Member Uncommon
    I think LOL and other games prove PVP is popular, but I also think it's fair to say a large portion of the audience does not enjoy being attacked and killed while unprepared and having no chance to win.

    To succeed a title needs to provide some control in the environment and allow the player some control over the terms of engagement and loss that they will suffer.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    My explanation to OP would be something like, if for example you were on a bus where all the other passengers were licking the windows, this wouldn't necessarily imply that all buses without windows would fail.  Instead, you have to consider that maybe you're just on a bus full of window lickers.

    I mean no disrespect, I am simply trying to use an analogy that seems relatable.

  • tommygunzIItommygunzII Roanoke, VAPosts: 321Member

    People love PVP, just not the way MMO's do it.

    Just look at every game out there from shooters to racing. People love playing against people, it's not as popular in MMO's simply because it's not that fun. Take BF3, if there was a choice to play PVP or PVE I would be willing to bet PVP wins 4:1. Saying people don't like PVP in MMO's is like saying people don't like PC's because of Windows 8.

     

  • Riposte.ThisRiposte.This Toronto, ONPosts: 192Member
    you need both.

    Killing dragons is my shit

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Fourth page, no reappearance of the OP.  Let's let it go.
  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    I don't really understand how you can even make a warhammer game that is not PvP oriented.
  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member

    WAR died because of all the PvEer garbage they put into the game and its RvR.

    PvP is about winning and losing, not collecting points and patting each other on the back.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Teh_Axi

    WAR died because of all the PvEer garbage they put into the game and its RvR.

    PvP is about winning and losing, not collecting points and patting each other on the back.

    Well in Warhammer 40.000 you could...with either chainfists or power gloves...

    image
  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,706Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by ste2000

    I agree with the OP.

    I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

    I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

    Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

    I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

    Speak for your self, just because some players are scared of ;losing pixels and get attached to them doesn't  mean we all do, PVE, AI , is lame  in 99% of most games.. No challenge...

    You missed the part where I said I played Darkfall for 2 years?

    Should read all the post not only the first sentence maybe.

     

    PvP has more sense in Multiplayer games where characters are pretty much balanced, so only the player skill make a difference.

    In MMOs character are hardly balanced for a couple of reasons

    1) The different classes are often unbalanced with some classes that have huge advantages on others.

    2) The leveling system gives advantage to people who have more time to play and have an higher level character, which obviously gives an unfair advantage on players who have a lower level character.

     

    So it is not about fear of losing stuff, but more a lack of balance which in MMOs doesn't give the chance of a "fair" fight.

    That's why I think that PvP is more suited for Multiplayer gaming (Like Battlefield and COD)

  • BizkitNLBizkitNL NetherlandsPosts: 2,280Member Common

    "for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only PVP"

     

    Edited for truthfullness.

     

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  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,476Member Uncommon
    I'll just say as much:

    If we were talking of Warhammer Fantasy, I'd agree. It's thought of as a massive army fest only because games workshop has lost the direction. Hell I could describe star wars or LoTR as a sequence of massive battles. Even star trek lol. So that doesn't make a game an army fest. Fantasy could well be what LoTR should've been if Chris wasn't so god dam greedy. About that.

    Now we aren't talking about Fantasy. We are talking about 40k instead. It's several multitudes darker and only about war. Face it for it is. In Fantasy, you can RP an Elven stableboy or a lumberjack from the old forest. Or a Knight of Brettonia. In 40k each and every RP revolves around battle and perfection of it. Be those Inquisitors, Aspect Warriors or whatever else.

    Hell, the motto for 40k is, after all: "In Grim darkness of far future, there is only war."

    (It's meant to be PvP)
  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by ste2000

    I agree with the OP.

    I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

    I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

    Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

    I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

    Speak for your self, just because some players are scared of ;losing pixels and get attached to them doesn't  mean we all do, PVE, AI , is lame  in 99% of most games.. No challenge...

    You missed the part where I said I played Darkfall for 2 years?

    Should read all the post not only the first sentence maybe.

     

    PvP has more sense in Multiplayer games where characters are pretty much balanced, so only the player skill make a difference.

    In MMOs character are hardly balanced for a couple of reasons

    1) The different classes are often unbalanced with some classes that have huge advantages on others.

    2) The leveling system gives advantage to people who have more time to play and have an higher level character, which obviously gives an unfair advantage on players who have a lower level character.

     

    So it is not about fear of losing stuff, but more a lack of balance which in MMOs doesn't give the chance of a "fair" fight.

    That's why I think that PvP is more suited for Multiplayer gaming (Like Battlefield and COD)

    Different classes can never be balanced what they can be is equally powerful, fairness is never an issue especially in PVP games (if you think multiplayer games are balanced you need to start playing more games, especially the ones considered E-sports).

     

    Unless Behaviour's plans change leveling in a game such as Eternal Crusade will be horizontal with different classes having different power levels which you can then choose to specialize (for example an ork shoota has ass all accuracy at range but at closer ranges puts out enough ammunition that he could actually fuck with a power suited opponent quite well and a ork slugga sacrifices almost all ranged capabilities for deadly close combat abilities, including the ability to cleave into power armor quite readily with a choppa). This specialization will in turn mean that even if say a nob is more powerful than a boyz if a close range specialized boyz gets a drop on a range specialized nob he could inflict serious damage or even kill the nob. This in effect means that a lower rung class can take on a higher class if used right. This is a skill based game where application of power and finesse trumps the brute minded power of vertical progression systems.

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  • elvenwolfelvenwolf RomePosts: 139Member

    I am mainly a PvE player, in fact I am waiting FFXIV ARR , but I honestly don't see why a PvP based game should fail. 

    Seeing I don't like PvP in MMO I don't go into it, quite simple, but I like to dip my nose in Planestside 2, or World of Tanks, War Thunder.

    And this game seem quite an hit to me if they can make it well. I kinda imagine it as a planteside like with at a warhammer 40k enviroment... 

    Also I cannot imagine a warhammer 40k game without PvP... the entire universe is around the war among the races... there isn't much else to do in that world... basically a giant Battle Royale on an universal scale.

  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,476Member Uncommon
    As I said, 40k without WAR is meaningless. Other stuff that could take place in 40k are ME type games and various conspiracies. But that's as far as that one goes. Now if war should be PvP represented...is in the eyes of beholder.

    For more of RP/typical world feeling, I'd strongly advise you to go to Fantasy. That one does not have to be about war. I can say that because I know Fantasy inside out so...yeah.
  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Some games need to be pvp. WH40K is one of them. In other threads about EQN with polls about PvE vs PvP, I voted for PvE over PvP every time. But I want this game to be pvp and not pve.
  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    The original Guild Wars was primarily marketed for the pvp crowd and look what happened there.
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  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
    The original Guild Wars was primarily marketed for the pvp crowd and look what happened there.

     

    That it was "marketed for the pvp crowd" is confounded with many other factors such that "what happened" cannot be directly tied to any individual factor.  

    On a personal note - I logged in, pressed the spacebar, googled "how to jump in guild wars" and found there was no such thing in the game, and then uninstalled.  That is "what happened" on my first adventure in Guild Wars.  Kind of irrelevant maybe but I like sharing stories.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by zonjimasen

    I was taking you seriously right until this part. I smell trollbait.

    You bothered to read it?

    "Look at me" font usage generally results in a reply of "No."

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LesrachLesrach HelsinkiPosts: 115Member Uncommon
    I like pvp.
  • xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by spoonone
    Originally posted by xalvi

    LOL sad man.

    Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

    Warhammer Online is not the same game as Warhammer 40k.

     

    Never said it was. The OP said look at games such as Warhammer online and see how it "failed because it was only pvp". 

     

    I said he is simply wrong.

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    Every time I see a thread about how PVP games fail, I facepalm.  My forehead can't take it anymore.

    Failed promises killed Warhammer, not PVP, not their horrible PVE.  Heck, even their attempt to mimic WOW and DAOC at the same time didn't kill them.  Certain classes weren't in, cities weren't in, and races weren't in.  PVP imbalance, not enough PVP scenarios.  THAT'S what killed the game for a lot of people.

    There are many games with a heavy focus on PVP that are still alive.

    DAOC still kicking

    Planetside 2 has a HUGE following

    League of Legends is a worldwide monster

    Lineage II is still thriving (even though I personally hated the game)

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: League of Legends, EQ1 (Ragefire Lockjaw), Dark Souls II, Hearthstone
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall!!!

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • VarthanderVarthander BarcelonaPosts: 471Member
    Originally posted by Teh_Axi

    WAR died because of all the PvEer garbage they put into the game and its RvR.

    PvP is about winning and losing, not collecting points and patting each other on the back.

    WAR died because everytime the mythic team tried to fix a class, another one resulted to be OP, in result a large % of people just switched sides to be on the winner team, in the end there was too many Order veterans to even win a scenario with the best of Destruction. So it was the fault of the dev team and the community.

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