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POLL: Do you want mini map in EQN?

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Comments

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    I'm going to take the road that would appeal to both sets of players.

    Have a mini map in game.

    Allow said mimimap to be easily hidden (Options menu button, rightclick/hide, etc).

    That way if you really want a minimap, it's there.

    If you don't want a minimap, you never have to see it.

    Boom.  I hate being so smart.  Wait, no I don't.

    Except that doesn't work.
     

    When people say they don't want a mini map, they're not saying "I don't want to look at a minimap" they're saying they don't want the game designed around it.

     

    Sure, I can turn off the quest compass in Oblivion, but then I'd never be able to play the fucking game because the game assumes you're using it.

     

    People want the MMO to be designed around a lack of a map. To be able to have a map making skill. For there to be value in group leaders who know there way around a dungeon. For there to be value in exploring and discovering new things. For the world to be more immersive. For exploration to be baking into quests, not assuming you're just going to use /map the whole time.

     

    Boom, I hate people who don't understand game design but pretend like they do.

    You suggest that an industry professional doesn't understand game design yet you can't even imagine how a game can be made to accommodate both preferences?  That's a bit presumptuous of you, and incorrect.

    If you're a designer, it's no surprise MMOs have been garbage for 8 years. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I took about your entire argument and gave examples, and the best you could say was "nuh uh".

    You simply stated that games are "designed" around the use of a minimap(then gave the example of oblivion's compass, which I might be rusty on my Army knowledge but a compass is not a map) and said they're designed in such a way that without using the minimap you would not be able to play the game.  I disagree.  In fact I have a 3D monitor and often times HUD stuff looks bad or does not work in 3D, so I turn off the HUD completely.  TES series is where I have spent many hours playing in 3D and it is completely playable without the compass.

    Stopped reading there, because it is literally impossible to do it. The vast majority of the quests give you a point marked on your map and tell you to go there. If you don't use the compass or map, you cannot finish the quest, as you don't get any directions from the dialogue. In a similar way, many MMOs just mark things on your map or minimap, and if you "choose not to use them" you literally cannot complete the quests.

     

    A lot of MMORPGs generally give you some sort of text dialog to go with the quest.  "We're getting raided on the roads by bandits to west of town, go kill them".  You don't need a minimap to head west and look for bandits.

    In fact, if you actually take the time to read most MMORPG quest dialog, it gives you a ton of hints/clues where to look for the mobs or items to collect.  Sometimes they outright tell you in plain English. (Most people don't know this because they tend to not even read the dialog.)

    Also, I wouldn't expect this to even be an issue because EQN is probably going to be very light on the "quests".  Expect more of a dynamic experience.  Where you explore and run into situations and events and participate in them.  They're not going to make EQN a series of quests sending you all over the place to kill 10 rats.  This has already been said.

    Also, even in original EQ, there was no map and the NPCs often gave you little or no guidance on where to go.

    They'd say something like "Bring me 16 greater lightstones".  You would have no idea what mob they dropped off of or that they were actually 2 zones away.  You ended up just running around aimlessly until you found what you were sent to do.

    We managed to make it through EQ alive somehow.

    In any case, your statements clearly show a lack of imagination.  You can have a game with a minimap, not designed to require it.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    I'm going to take the road that would appeal to both sets of players.

    Have a mini map in game.

    Allow said mimimap to be easily hidden (Options menu button, rightclick/hide, etc).

    That way if you really want a minimap, it's there.

    If you don't want a minimap, you never have to see it.

    Boom.  I hate being so smart.  Wait, no I don't.

    Except that doesn't work.
     

    When people say they don't want a mini map, they're not saying "I don't want to look at a minimap" they're saying they don't want the game designed around it.

     

    Sure, I can turn off the quest compass in Oblivion, but then I'd never be able to play the fucking game because the game assumes you're using it.

     

    People want the MMO to be designed around a lack of a map. To be able to have a map making skill. For there to be value in group leaders who know there way around a dungeon. For there to be value in exploring and discovering new things. For the world to be more immersive. For exploration to be baking into quests, not assuming you're just going to use /map the whole time.

     

    Boom, I hate people who don't understand game design but pretend like they do.

    You suggest that an industry professional doesn't understand game design yet you can't even imagine how a game can be made to accommodate both preferences?  That's a bit presumptuous of you, and incorrect.

    If you're a designer, it's no surprise MMOs have been garbage for 8 years. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I took about your entire argument and gave examples, and the best you could say was "nuh uh".

    You simply stated that games are "designed" around the use of a minimap(then gave the example of oblivion's compass, which I might be rusty on my Army knowledge but a compass is not a map) and said they're designed in such a way that without using the minimap you would not be able to play the game.  I disagree.  In fact I have a 3D monitor and often times HUD stuff looks bad or does not work in 3D, so I turn off the HUD completely.  TES series is where I have spent many hours playing in 3D and it is completely playable without the compass.

    Stopped reading there, because it is literally impossible to do it. The vast majority of the quests give you a point marked on your map and tell you to go there. If you don't use the compass or map, you cannot finish the quest, as you don't get any directions from the dialogue. In a similar way, many MMOs just mark things on your map or minimap, and if you "choose not to use them" you literally cannot complete the quests.

     

    A lot of MMORPGs generally give you some sort of text dialog to go with the quest.  "We're getting raided on the roads by bandits to west of town, go kill them".  You don't need a minimap to head west and look for bandits.

    In fact, if you actually take the time to read most MMORPG quest dialog, it gives you a ton of hints/clues where to look for the mobs or items to collect.  Sometimes they outright tell you in plain English. (Most people don't know this because they tend to not even read the dialog.)

    Also, I wouldn't expect this to even be an issue because EQN is probably going to be very light on the "quests".  Expect more of a dynamic experience.  Where you explore and run into situations and events and participate in them.  They're not going to make EQN a series of quests sending you all over the place to kill 10 rats.  This has already been said.

    Also, even in original EQ, there was no map and the NPCs often gave you little or no guidance on where to go.

    They'd say something like "Bring me 16 greater lightstones".  You would have no idea what mob they dropped off of or that they were actually 2 zones away.  You ended up just running around aimlessly until you found what you were sent to do.

    We managed to make it through EQ alive somehow.

    In any case, your statements clearly show a lack of imagination.  You can have a game with a minimap, not designed to require it.

    Yes, have the minimap as a inventory item with the vaguest geographical features only and have the quest mark a general location or direction to head to without saying anymore. Boom, no one's happy!

    image
  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member

    A map ruins YOUR experience? Just never press M. The minimap compass usually isnt useful unless you minimize it all the way. And even then I think most players hit M to look where they need to go

     

    Just don't hit M. No one is forcing you to. You can read every quest log and such as you want.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Yes to mini-maps, no to quest trackers. You should have to read your quests to understand where you are going, but I don't think you should need to get out a pen and paper to jot down directions. Having maps with points of interest and towns is fine.  
  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,699Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hockeyplayr
    I voted yes.  I'm not a fan of getting lost. 

    It is understandable, but you won't get lost.

    Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.

    I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by hockeyplayr
    I voted yes.  I'm not a fan of getting lost. 

    It is understandable, but you won't get lost.

    Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.

    I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.

    You have to realise that not everyone has a photographic memory though. I do, but many don't.  That's why they invented GPS and car navigation tools.

    I don't want to see a big arrow saying where a NPC is that I have never encountered before, but I think a mini-map just takes the place of what a GPS or map would do in real life.  As an adventurer it would be kind of silly to be travelling without a map.

    In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    I want fogged maps for areas you dont know, a mapmaking skill and the abbilitie to buy playermade maps from other players, where mapmaking skill dictates the quallity

     

    and spells  that allow certain players to see mobs and or players on the mini map.

     

    i dont want fullfledged minimaps that show all and everything, if you want heightened senses you need to either spec for that or have friends that could cast the right spellon you

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    I want fogged maps for areas you dont know, a mapmaking skill and the abbilitie to buy playermade maps from other players, where mapmaking skill dictates the quallity

     

    and spells  that allow certain players to see mobs and or players on the mini map.

     

    i dont want fullfledged minimaps that show all and everything, if you want heightened senses you need to either spec for that or have friends that could cast the right spellon you

    Now selling maps of the starter zone! slightly unrealistic but totally accurate!

     

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Now selling maps of the starter zone! slightly unrealistic but totally accurate!

    Can I get that on hex paper?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by evilastro

    In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.

    Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)

    "I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...

    By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.

    But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by hMJem

    A map ruins YOUR experience? Just never press M. The minimap compass usually isnt useful unless you minimize it all the way. And even then I think most players hit M to look where they need to go

     

    Just don't hit M. No one is forcing you to. You can read every quest log and such as you want.

    Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present... someone who doesn't get it at all!

     

    Kid, try thinking a little harder before dropping your pebble of wisdom.

  • Trudge34Trudge34 Stevens Point, WIPosts: 392Member Uncommon
    I'd like a return of the sense heading skill, no mini map and no GPS. I'd like maps that you can add markers and points of interest on that you use to navigate, but the GPS thing ruins it for me. You should have to use landmarks to navigate, not a magical arrow on your map screen.

    Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
    Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
    Currently Playing: GW2

    Nytlok Sylas
    80 Sylvari Ranger

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by hockeyplayr
    I voted yes.  I'm not a fan of getting lost. 

    It is understandable, but you won't get lost.

    Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.

    I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.

    You have to realise that not everyone has a photographic memory though. I do, but many don't.  That's why they invented GPS and car navigation tools.

    I get horribly lost without a GPS, yet I know my way around all of albion in DAoC before they put maps in.

    And to the person talking about a "mapless wolrd" having a drawn map you can buy or look up online is fine, but a GPS mini map is stupid.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by evilastro

    In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.

    Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)

    "I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...

    By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.

    But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.

    Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps. Dungeons, as in places you are exploring away from civilisation and probably full of hostile things (where cartographers probably aren't able to go) do not need maps, as it ruins the adventure.

    To put it in the context of Everquest... the commonlands and Freeport would be mapped, but the Wailing Caves would not be.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by evilastro

    In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.

    Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)

    "I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...

    By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.

    But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.

    Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps.

    Most of it was written as a reply to the topic as a whole; rather than your own erudite verbiage.

    Started off agreeing with you, in other words :P

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GreezGreez Wickie Watchie, FLPosts: 103Member
    One thing I'd want is a compass, though, I get disoriented really fast if I don't know where North is.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by evilastro

    In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.

    Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)

    "I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...

    By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.

    But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.

    Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps.

    Most of it was written as a reply to the topic as a whole; rather than your own erudite verbiage.

    Started off agreeing with you, in other words :P

    Erudite verbiage, I like that :)

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common

    Did early EQ not have maps you could buy for your character?  I seem to think so. Would be neat if there were rough maps like the Spanish explorers had, where continents were off a bit here and there, where the oceans drops off into an alleged abyss, etc...

    A tool to help, but incomplete enough to leave a sense of mystery.

    That said, I am against the HUD (Head's Up Display) type of layouts recent MMO's have.  I am playing a fantasy medieval character, not a modern jet pilot.

  • ShauneepeakShauneepeak Biddeford, MEPosts: 421Member
    Yes, with the option to simply get rid of it is the best bet it would please everyone. There is no reason to have simply one or the other when you can do this.
  • newbinatornewbinator LA, CAPosts: 780Member
    I have no opinion on it. Mini-Maps are such a small detail to me. Either way I'll adapt to it.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Shauneepeak
    Yes, with the option to simply get rid of it is the best bet it would please everyone.

    Where do they keep finding people like you who don't understand the issue?

  • RaunuRaunu Lewisburg, PAPosts: 483Member
    I don't really want a mini-map. However, what I do want is a map that starts out completely blank and is filled in while exploring. I think this would really aid in the feel of exploration.

    - - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,969Member Uncommon

    I want good maps and a good minimap. I see it as a requirement these days. Yeh, we survived without them but I think it's much better with it.

    A map like Vanguard's would be good (with better icons).. doesn't have all the detail on it but it's possible to orientate yourself properly with it.

    I wouldn't mind if it was done like the old Ultima games as well, as in you buy maps.. like.. players can be cartographers and make maps and sell them but only after they have explored themselves... and if they have missed something (like a cave) it doesn't appear on their created maps. Gives real explorers even more reason for doing it.

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop.  Regardless, I'll have my map.

    Kills immersion??  Sigh.

    • Voice Chat kills immersion
    • LFG Windows kill immersion
    • Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
    • Auction House kills immersion

    Shall I go on?  There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now.  It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)

    What we need is a robust mapping utility so we CAN make our own maps.  Also, get rid of sense heading and the /loc command.  I don't want to have to mash a button to figure out where I am.  Let it display on the compass.

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: League of Legends, EQ1 (Ragefire Lockjaw), Dark Souls II, Hearthstone
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    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall!!!

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  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Greez
    One thing I'd want is a compass, though, I get disoriented really fast if I don't know where North is.

    If the game is realistic in regards to the movement of the sun or plant growth two tricks to get your bearings are:

    1. If you know what time it is look at the sun, if it is past noon it will be west, if it is before noon it should be east.

    2. If you're in a wooded area or area with trees and temperate conditions look at which way the moss is growing on trees, generally the most intense shades of green for moss are on the east pointing side of the tree.

    Hope that helps if we don't have a minimap but do have some realism in the EQN world :P.

    image
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