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Those who says e-sport is not a real sport, the US govt would disagree.

13

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  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 have no RNG...

    Pretty sure League of Legends also does not have RNG.

    RNG = Random numbers spat out using a specific mathematics formula which simulates randomness

    What LoL uses (to my knowledge) are formulas for determining damage outputs on differing heroes based on various stats.

     

    In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

    image
  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Does this mean that Poker is a professional sport too? lmao    Honey, be back next week, I have to go workout in Vegas..  Wish me luck..
  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,682Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 have no RNG...

    Pretty sure League of Legends also does not have RNG.

    RNG = Random numbers spat out using a specific mathematics formula which simulates randomness

    What LoL uses (to my knowledge) are formulas for determining damage outputs on differing heroes based on various stats. 

    In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

    Well LoL does have a RNG element (critical strikes), but overall the random aspect of it plays an extremely minor role (don't think I've ever watched a game where I felt someone won a fight purely due to luck.)

    You're definitely right that any e-sport game has virtually no RNG presence, so that skill can be the only factor to winning a game.  While I sorta enjoy crits in TF2 for pub play, they're definitely one of the things that prevented it from becoming an e-sport (that and how the game isn't really balanced for competitive play, even though some TF2 weapons have extremely high skill ceilings.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Does this mean that Poker is a professional sport too? lmao    Honey, be back next week, I have to go workout in Vegas..  Wish me luck..

    Poker is a sport on ESPN, but it relies on an element of randomness to determine winners. It's entirely possible that a world class poker player could lose because of the random draw of the cards, so I don't think it is a "sport".

    That doesn't take away from the skill required to pull out a win when the cards are against you though.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Aysono
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Greez Disclaimer: I'm a fan of eSports and a crazy Dota 2 fan.   I'm kinda wondering what you're trying to get at. If we're getting at the truth of the matter, what the US government considers it is quite irrelevant, is it not? What would you gain from that, anyway, from eSports being called sports? Does that change anything? Do they magically require physical exertion due to that title alone? No... I prefer to separate athletic competition from what I consider more mental competition. I.e., football, boxing, running, from things like chess and cards. I am often not certain where certain fringe categories fit in, considering many video games rely on twitch reflexes and mouse movements, and other types of sports are closer to them (darts as someone mentioned here). But there's very little in common between practicing for football and practicing for chess, and then practicing for Dota 2. They probably all deserve their own categories. I generally believe that if you don't have to engage most of your body to succeed at it, it's not an athletic sport. This excludes both gaming and dexterity based sports. I'm also not sure where baseball fits in sometimes.
    These guys: SportAccord decide who is and who is not an Olympic athlete and what is and what is not an Olympic sport. They would disagree with you. They also have a very clear set of criteria for deciding what is and what is not a sport, and who is and who is not an athlete. It's pretty easy to slot video games into their criteria and get "sport", but not all of them. They have to be competitive, they have to be judged, and they can't determine winners based on a RNG.  
    LoL (no pun intended!!!). Who make and enforce laws in the U.S of A?


    Well, the USA apparently is very good about getting other countries to follow their laws. Not that that is a good thing necessarily.

    But the SportAccord is an international group and they really would be considered the arbiters of what is and is not a sport. I don't know of any other organization that is both international, and also related to sports in general, rather than a specific sport.

    I suppose an e-Sports organization would have to apply for membership, and only then would e-Sports be an officially recognized "sport" around the world. Until then, it's just the U.S. and (I assume) South Korea that recognize pro gamers as sportsmen.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • UNDERDOG88UNDERDOG88 indianapolis, INPosts: 10Member
    named a sport by the country with the highest obesity......
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by UNDERDOG88
    named a sport by the country with the highest obesity......

    HA! That's now Mexico! Sucker!

    http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/mexico-surpasses-u-s-world-fattest-nation-report-article-1.1393801

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GreezGreez Wickie Watchie, FLPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

    You obviously don't watch Dota 2.

    Critical, bash, timelock, backtrack, root, soul catcher...

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member

    You'd get more physical activity at the keyboard during porn fap sessions than when playing ANY video game. And there is a lot more strategy to it than in most video games as well ( soft or hard? fast or slow? more pressure-no less!-now more!, stop at the redhead or finish on the brunette two pages back? Quick clicking to get to the prettiest face pic is key for an optimal finish! )

    Hmmm....time to call my congressman. I'm gonna love getting paid to fap.

    Pro Fap Awards, here I "cum"!

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    Beaurocracy.. lol

     

    Sorry, people who play LoL are not athletes.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by redcapp

    Beaurocracy.. lol

     

    Sorry, people who play LoL are not athletes.

    People who bike in the park on Sunday, those who play an occasional tennis game, and those who play the occasional soft balls are not athletes either.

    So?

     

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Greez
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

    You obviously don't watch Dota 2.

    Critical, bash, timelock, backtrack, root, soul catcher...

    1. Did not know DotA 2 was considered a e-sport, I know DotA 1 was considered a competitive game though not sure if to the sports level.

    2. By what I know of DotA 2 (played only a bit) criticals are the only luck-based element... and if it is anything like LoL then crits can be increased via items which in turn reduces the luck element, the others you mentioned are skills or skill effects.

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 have no RNG...

    Pretty sure League of Legends also does not have RNG.

    RNG = Random numbers spat out using a specific mathematics formula which simulates randomness

    What LoL uses (to my knowledge) are formulas for determining damage outputs on differing heroes based on various stats. 

    In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

    Well LoL does have a RNG element (critical strikes), but overall the random aspect of it plays an extremely minor role (don't think I've ever watched a game where I felt someone won a fight purely due to luck.)

    You're definitely right that any e-sport game has virtually no RNG presence, so that skill can be the only factor to winning a game.  While I sorta enjoy crits in TF2 for pub play, they're definitely one of the things that prevented it from becoming an e-sport (that and how the game isn't really balanced for competitive play, even though some TF2 weapons have extremely high skill ceilings.)

    Ehh... LoL had random crits which could give you an edge in the "laning phase", but they were removed long time ago. Only way to get crits today is to buy items for it. And, in TF2 tournaments, random crits are OFF. TF2 was/is an e-sport with international tournaments. It is fairly well balanced too - I don't know what would make you think otherwise.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,682Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Ehh... LoL had random crits which could give you an edge in the "laning phase", but they were removed long time ago. Only way to get crits today is to buy items for it. And, in TF2 tournaments, random crits are OFF. TF2 was/is an e-sport with international tournaments. It is fairly well balanced too - I don't know what would make you think otherwise.

    Right, the only way to get RNG is to buy it -- but it's still RNG.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Ehh... LoL had random crits which could give you an edge in the "laning phase", but they were removed long time ago. Only way to get crits today is to buy items for it. And, in TF2 tournaments, random crits are OFF. TF2 was/is an e-sport with international tournaments. It is fairly well balanced too - I don't know what would make you think otherwise.

    Right, the only way to get RNG is to buy it -- but it's still RNG.

    Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS.

    There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,682Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS.

    There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.

    Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.)

    I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS.

    There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.

    Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.)

    I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.

    There are plenty of RNG in real sports. Slight unevenness on a tennis court can affect the trajectory of the tennis ball slightly. It is not like all sports have no random elements.

    Heck, you flip a coin to determine who goes first in Football .. isn't that RNG?

     

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 182Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196195/US_recognizes_eSports_players_as_professional_athletes.php

    ""The United States government recognizes League of Legends pro players as professional athletes, and awards visas to essentially work in the United States under that title"

     

    They want some of their winnings as taxes is all.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196195/US_recognizes_eSports_players_as_professional_athletes.php

    ""The United States government recognizes League of Legends pro players as professional athletes, and awards visas to essentially work in the United States under that title"

     

     

    I was surprised to see that too, but some of the comments made were a lot more compelling.   

     

    I suppose when a former Olympic trainer that trained two gold medalist states he believes it should be classified as a sport; it kind makes a person look at their own argument a be more closely.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Quirhid Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS. There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.
    Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.) I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.
    There are plenty of RNG in real sports. Slight unevenness on a tennis court can affect the trajectory of the tennis ball slightly. It is not like all sports have no random elements.

    Heck, you flip a coin to determine who goes first in Football .. isn't that RNG?

     



    It depends on whether the RNG will determine who wins, and whether the RNG is part of the game play itself.

    In tennis, the rules do not stipulate random variations in the surface of the tennis court. They probably have to have a minimum flatness in order to serve as an official tennis court in order to minimize randomness.

    In video games, things like crits are an introduced RNG. I think it could be argued that the RNG does have an impact, but it has the same impact for all players. The question is whether it's skill that wins a match or the RNG that wins a match.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GreezGreez Wickie Watchie, FLPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    1. Did not know DotA 2 was considered a e-sport, I know DotA 1 was considered a competitive game though not sure if to the sports level.

    2. By what I know of DotA 2 (played only a bit) criticals are the only luck-based element... and if it is anything like LoL then crits can be increased via items which in turn reduces the luck element, the others you mentioned are skills or skill effects.

    I think millions in prize money make it an eSport, all right. The only people who don't think it's an eSport are those who are not following the game in any way, shape, or form (possibly due to beta status, although it's out of beta at this point). From what I recall, the only game it's properly behind viewership wise is LoL, and we are getting close to International 3 which could make quite a difference.

    The skills and skill effects are still luck based. Dota 2 does use something called Pseudo-Random Distribution, but it's still a matter of chance. That page also lists some of the skills that involve RNG in some way.

    But one of the most controversial RNG effects in the game is Entangle of the Spirit Bear: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Lone_Druid#Spirit_Bear

    Entangle has a 20% chance to proc, and whether it procs or not can often make the difference between a kill or an escape, since it roots the enemy and deals damage over time.

  • Jadedangel1Jadedangel1 Newark, NJPosts: 184Member

    At first seeing this news, all I could think was "wtf?!" Lmao

    But if curling, synchronized swimming, water polo, and competitive speed walking can all be Olympic sports, then I see no reason why e-sports can't have their share.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    Different sports, different results...


     

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  • Soki123Soki123 Kelowna, BCPosts: 1,477Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Different sports, different results...


     Agreed, sadly.

     

  • irnbru69irnbru69 perthPosts: 67Member Uncommon

    Not that im against people having games considered as sports, but no one gives a crap what the US government thinks.

    They said ganja is a drug... the medical and science community disagrees

    They said Fluoride is good, but the experts and our body tells a different story.

    They say a lot of things and it mainly comes down to money, its only been accepted officially  because some where down the line they know that there is money to be made.

    People on here trying to use the fact that most of these gamers are fat and there for it should not be considered a sport ??

    Wrong.... what about Darts, and billiards and plenty of fat people take part in that, to just say this is not a sport because there not athletic is just pure dim witted and naive. ive seen many many many fat NFL players so take your fat arguments and stick them up your fat ass =)

     

    ps: im not fat =o, who cares ?

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