When a very large company designs an MMO they will obviously go after their largest possible player base
I really hate it when people prop up like this trying to act like they're the company's publisher or something. There are 2 problems with that:
It doesn't affect you personally well at all if a company is not driven by your enjoyment of the game. Why would you support, promote, or excuse this is beyond me. Yes, that company wants to make money. That shouldn't mean squat to you. You should denounce that. You should tell them they're greedy. You should never ever forgive or accept the hyper greedyfication of a company unless you basically want to be surrounded by Zynga clones. That only occurs because we allow it. It only becomes profitable because we allow it. That's why people who like those things get bashed, and rightly so. Why are you shooting yourself in the foot or telling others to do so? Is it really worth it for you to be "right" on a message board rather than defend the turf of quality games made with passion? What the hell do you win from company X earning a lot of money? What exactly is the benefit of the random people on message boards like yourself who all come into "helpfully" "remind" us that companies only exist for money and not a single person in that company ever grew up and went to college and studied with the intent of, I fucking don't know, making something cool? People like you disgust me.
But never mind that.
What's even more silly is that you somehow think you know a) what this company in particular will do; b) what is profitable for that company. You also assume that what the company will do is always profitable for it. Maybe you should realize that these are actually not as simple and easy decisions as you may think. For one, companies would care about actual profit before they care about raw quantity of players, because they may gain more profit with less players, depending on how they run their model. And companies have succeeded with very different payment models and approaches. Many companies run on McDonalds style models, others run on reputation, some run in niches, some just make quality games and are done with it. Companies get huge amounts of players via F2P, for one, but it often heralds a failing game. Many times these companies make huge mistakes when they think they are going for a cash grab - I am really not sure how Blizzard's approach with Diablo III is going to affect the company in the long run. Many of these super "successful" companies went under pretty quickly. It's not that simple. Only complete idiots think it's really easy to just get the max amount of players in your game and get money. When Blizzard did it, it was done by releasing a quality product (you can hate WoW all you want but it was a very good game). It was also done by attracting WarCraft fans and the WarCraft brand, which GREW as a result of what they did - who says EQ can't do the same? Maybe people should get a clue that releasing junk may mean profits in the short term, but it has consequences. Maybe they should stop looking for the easy way out when they want to achieve something insane. When you do it the "easy" way and you take no risks you're also settling for mediocrity. And, yes, some companies are perfectly satisfied with that. I do not support those companies. The person at the top of this page made very good points.
You don't know what SOE is thinking. You can't read their mind. You have no fucking clue what they want to do with EQN. Be satisfied with that and speculate with the rest of us, and leave your publisher style think to the actual publishers.
Unless they realize that trying to get a million or more subscribers is the least likely scenario, regardless of what they do. If they have reasonable goals of say, 250k to 500k subscribers, then they may include a good bit of the less popular content.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
WoW plays nothing like EQ if that's what you're trying to imply.
I see little point in creating another game that plays like WoW, the market is saturated with clones, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happens.
Point is WoW is a clone, "successful: but still a clone.
Of what? There was no MMO, prior to WoW, which played like WoW. It had elements from EQ and some other MMOs of that time but the end results was nothing of the sort.
Originally posted by MMOGamer71 Originally posted by WaterlilyOriginally posted by bayanmerkid they will build a more mature WoW
Like the thousands of other WoW clones out there .WoW is a clone. WoW grabbed things from EVERY MMO before its time. Upon release WoW did nothing original. It just copied things very well and made a graphically/artistically appealing game which ran rather smooth (game play wise, not so smooth on the hardware back then).
Originally posted by bayanmerkid Just to clarify this wasnt a post about how this game is going to be WoW or easymode or anything of the sort. What I was trying to get at is that people have this idea that SOE will be going after a niche of players who want EQ1 remade. When I say its going to be familiar to WoW, what is mean is that people who have played WoW in the past or for that matter any popular MMO be it GW1 2 or SWTOR, will easily be able to pick the game up and find some familiarity.
I'm a veteran EQ player of about 7 years and played EQ2 for about 18 months till I levelled every crafting class to max. I realise that EQN is not going to be similar to either of those games but both of those games kept me playing for over the average 3 months that I normally play mmorpgs.
I have every faith in SoE to give me a new rendition of EverQuest that I will play for at least a year or two because at present every game since EQ2/WoW has been mediocre at best *off-topic* with exception from a couple of OWPvP games I enjoyed (EvE and Perpetuum), and I am not a PvPer by nature.
Originally posted by bayanmerkid Just to clarify this wasnt a post about how this game is going to be WoW or easymode or anything of the sort. What I was trying to get at is that people have this idea that SOE will be going after a niche of players who want EQ1 remade. When I say its going to be familiar to WoW, what is mean is that people who have played WoW in the past or for that matter any popular MMO be it GW1 2 or SWTOR, will easily be able to pick the game up and find some familiarity.
So why are SOE deliberately targeting EQ and EQ2 players past and present with their promotion of the game?
My EQ Story campaign
Launching the game at SOE Live to "their loyalest fans"
That artwork everyone hated done as a tribute to EQ
Calling the game EQ Next rather than "World of Norrath" or "Eve of Luclin"
They are going after those players. Sure the overall marketing will get bigger and broader but to date it has been clearly focused at those EQ and EQ2 players.
So what is your real agenda? Is this a thinly disguised OW FFA PvP argument?
Originally posted by bayanmerkid ... When a very large company designs an MMO they will obviously go after their largest possible player base, if you played EQ 1, 2, or SWG you probably arent their target market, heck if you post on this forum you probably arent their target market. If you play WOW, COD, Guild Wars 1 or 2, wear a hat backwards while playing texas holdem watching UFC in your friends basement your probably their target market. ...
I believe that you Bayanmerkid are absolutely CORRECT with this statement. ...
Yes he is!
We don't know what Everquest Next is going to be, but we can be certain about one thing it is not - hardcore. And that is a good thing. Hardcore is anyway just a better sounding word for niche. I want EQN to be mainstream otherwise it wont be successful. I also like casual games up to a point. I don't like to be ganked ever 2 minutes or chop down trees for two entire days. Vanilla WoW for example had a degree of difficulty that was ok for me. I'm not talking about Mists of Pandaria even Mr Wears-his-hat-backwards likes some challenge.
But there is another point where the OP may not be right, I believe:
Originally posted by bayanmerkid
... they will build a more mature WoW with EQ lore and new enough game mechanics that although they will be familiar they wont be stale. ...
I think WoW and the Themepark MMORPG in general is much like Guitar Hero, it was a money making machine for many years, but all things must come to an end. I guess more or less everyone who was ever even remotely interested in WoW has now played enough of it for the rest of his life and is ready to move on. I believe that's the reason why WoW is now being almost exclusively targeted towards kids. This is the last demographic that haven't played the game jet. WoW-Clones never where where successful and now they are even less.
I believe SOE when they are saying EQN will be a sandbox. It is a misconception that every sandbox needs to be super hardcore, with FFA PVP and time consuming crafting. It will be a casual sandbox. I believe that casuals actually like sandboxes because more freedom is always better. They just have not been presented to them in suiting way, and I believe SOE is go for exactly that.
And by the way: The OP did not write anything about one game being a clone of another game, and I can't hear it anymore.
Originally posted by thedood123 They want to add income, transferring players who are already income from a game they already own isn't a good plan.
But capturing a solid core of players is, particularly if they are past subscribers (either now playing for free or now playing other games). Also new game, new cash shop items = more cash. Building on that solid core adds even more revenue, games with a lot of players are more attractive than games with almost none.
There is also the customer retention argument, "sure these guys are playing EQ now but for how much longer", convert as many as possible to a new addictive game but allow them to have the safety blanket of being able to move back if it is too scary.
I don't think anyone believes SOE care about their players beyond the financial gain they can accrue from them, everything done is done to help assuage spending on their products.
As said though it won't be EQ1 or EQ2, those games have their fanbase and EQN will be looking to attract more customers rather than hurt existing games in their catalogue.
'We don't know what Everquest Next is going to be, but we can be certain about one thing it is not - hardcore. And that is a good thing. Hardcore is anyway just a better sounding word for niche. I want EQN to mainstream otherwise it wont be successful.'
The main issue with this line of thinking is that in order to be successful the game must attract a multi-million playerbase..
A lot of games are very successful, EQ1 is still a very successful game even today. More companies need to start thinking about their target audience and creating games that would appeal to them (allowing costs to be lower) rather than creating games for the sole purpose of financial success and audience aquisition, which appeal to everyone yet satiate nobody for long. We have McDonalds of the MMO world, lets have a few 'fine dining resturants' as well, just because one is successful doesn't make others not.
By the way I am aware of what EQN is likely to be and that is as mentioned a casual easily accessible pick up and play game. The gaming industry isn't a very fast learning one and I suspect we have a fair few more years of chasing concurrent multi million player bases unsuccessfully.
I don't think anyone believes SOE care about their players beyond the financial gain they can accrue from them, everything done is done to help assuage spending on their products.
As said though it won't be EQ1 or EQ2, those games have their fanbase and EQN will be looking to attract more customers rather than hurt existing games in their catalogue.
'We don't know what Everquest Next is going to be, but we can be certain about one thing it is not - hardcore. And that is a good thing. Hardcore is anyway just a better sounding word for niche. I want EQN to mainstream otherwise it wont be successful.'
The main issue with this line of thinking is that in order to be successful the game must attract a multi-million playerbase..
A lot of games are very successful, EQ1 is still a very successful game even today. More companies need to start thinking about their target audience and creating games that would appeal to them (allowing costs to be lower) rather than creating games for the sole purpose of financial success and audience aquisition, which appeal to everyone yet satiate nobody for long. We have McDonalds of the MMO world, lets have a few 'fine dining resturants' as well, just because one is successful doesn't make others not.
By the way I am aware of what EQN is likely to be and that is as mentioned a casual easily accessible pick up and play game. The gaming industry isn't a very fast learning one and I suspect we have a fair few more years of chasing concurrent multi million player bases unsuccessfully.
You're saying, that companies should go for long term player engagement instead only aiming for box sales. I'm totally in the same boat with you there and did not say otherwise. I guess most publishers are going for both. Catch as many players at start and keep them as long as possible. That so many MMOs have been one hit wonder lately was not their plan, they just failed.
WoW actually was able to keep its players over time the same as EQ, it only has much more. One could ague that EQ is catering to a smaller more sophisticated audience but that is very much a matter of definition.
It would be noble by SOE to try to do a piece of art and be content with the smaller piece of the pie, but something tells me that is not what they are going for. If they wanted to make a game for a smaller demographic with a smaller budget, they would not use their flagship IP for that.
You also have to take into consideration that EQ is also popular because its players are very attached and nostalgic about it. If the 1999 version of EQ would release today with state of the art graphics it would alienate a lot of people. I'm also willing to trade a game that is exactly tailored to fit my taste with one that is a bit off but is much more successful. The game would get more love by the publisher and i would get my friends to play with me easier.
Comments
I really hate it when people prop up like this trying to act like they're the company's publisher or something. There are 2 problems with that:
It doesn't affect you personally well at all if a company is not driven by your enjoyment of the game. Why would you support, promote, or excuse this is beyond me. Yes, that company wants to make money. That shouldn't mean squat to you. You should denounce that. You should tell them they're greedy. You should never ever forgive or accept the hyper greedyfication of a company unless you basically want to be surrounded by Zynga clones. That only occurs because we allow it. It only becomes profitable because we allow it. That's why people who like those things get bashed, and rightly so. Why are you shooting yourself in the foot or telling others to do so? Is it really worth it for you to be "right" on a message board rather than defend the turf of quality games made with passion? What the hell do you win from company X earning a lot of money? What exactly is the benefit of the random people on message boards like yourself who all come into "helpfully" "remind" us that companies only exist for money and not a single person in that company ever grew up and went to college and studied with the intent of, I fucking don't know, making something cool? People like you disgust me.
But never mind that.
What's even more silly is that you somehow think you know a) what this company in particular will do; b) what is profitable for that company. You also assume that what the company will do is always profitable for it. Maybe you should realize that these are actually not as simple and easy decisions as you may think. For one, companies would care about actual profit before they care about raw quantity of players, because they may gain more profit with less players, depending on how they run their model. And companies have succeeded with very different payment models and approaches. Many companies run on McDonalds style models, others run on reputation, some run in niches, some just make quality games and are done with it. Companies get huge amounts of players via F2P, for one, but it often heralds a failing game. Many times these companies make huge mistakes when they think they are going for a cash grab - I am really not sure how Blizzard's approach with Diablo III is going to affect the company in the long run. Many of these super "successful" companies went under pretty quickly. It's not that simple. Only complete idiots think it's really easy to just get the max amount of players in your game and get money. When Blizzard did it, it was done by releasing a quality product (you can hate WoW all you want but it was a very good game). It was also done by attracting WarCraft fans and the WarCraft brand, which GREW as a result of what they did - who says EQ can't do the same? Maybe people should get a clue that releasing junk may mean profits in the short term, but it has consequences. Maybe they should stop looking for the easy way out when they want to achieve something insane. When you do it the "easy" way and you take no risks you're also settling for mediocrity. And, yes, some companies are perfectly satisfied with that. I do not support those companies. The person at the top of this page made very good points.
You don't know what SOE is thinking. You can't read their mind. You have no fucking clue what they want to do with EQN. Be satisfied with that and speculate with the rest of us, and leave your publisher style think to the actual publishers.
Unless they realize that trying to get a million or more subscribers is the least likely scenario, regardless of what they do. If they have reasonable goals of say, 250k to 500k subscribers, then they may include a good bit of the less popular content.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Of what? There was no MMO, prior to WoW, which played like WoW. It had elements from EQ and some other MMOs of that time but the end results was nothing of the sort.
My gaming blog
WoW is a clone.
WoW grabbed things from EVERY MMO before its time. Upon release WoW did nothing original. It just copied things very well and made a graphically/artistically appealing game which ran rather smooth (game play wise, not so smooth on the hardware back then).
I'm a veteran EQ player of about 7 years and played EQ2 for about 18 months till I levelled every crafting class to max. I realise that EQN is not going to be similar to either of those games but both of those games kept me playing for over the average 3 months that I normally play mmorpgs.
I have every faith in SoE to give me a new rendition of EverQuest that I will play for at least a year or two because at present every game since EQ2/WoW has been mediocre at best *off-topic* with exception from a couple of OWPvP games I enjoyed (EvE and Perpetuum), and I am not a PvPer by nature.
And Warhammer as well.
I played both EQ1 and WoW at release, and yes then that where very much alike.
The Orcs vs. humans well that was from Warhammer.
WoW took a lot from Warhammer.
So why are SOE deliberately targeting EQ and EQ2 players past and present with their promotion of the game?
They are going after those players. Sure the overall marketing will get bigger and broader but to date it has been clearly focused at those EQ and EQ2 players.
So what is your real agenda? Is this a thinly disguised OW FFA PvP argument?
Yes he is!
We don't know what Everquest Next is going to be, but we can be certain about one thing it is not - hardcore. And that is a good thing. Hardcore is anyway just a better sounding word for niche. I want EQN to be mainstream otherwise it wont be successful.
I also like casual games up to a point. I don't like to be ganked ever 2 minutes or chop down trees for two entire days. Vanilla WoW for example had a degree of difficulty that was ok for me. I'm not talking about Mists of Pandaria even Mr Wears-his-hat-backwards likes some challenge.
I think WoW and the Themepark MMORPG in general is much like Guitar Hero, it was a money making machine for many years, but all things must come to an end. I guess more or less everyone who was ever even remotely interested in WoW has now played enough of it for the rest of his life and is ready to move on. I believe that's the reason why WoW is now being almost exclusively targeted towards kids. This is the last demographic that haven't played the game jet. WoW-Clones never where where successful and now they are even less.But there is another point where the OP may not be right, I believe:
I believe SOE when they are saying EQN will be a sandbox. It is a misconception that every sandbox needs to be super hardcore, with FFA PVP and time consuming crafting. It will be a casual sandbox. I believe that casuals actually like sandboxes because more freedom is always better. They just have not been presented to them in suiting way, and I believe SOE is go for exactly that.
And by the way: The OP did not write anything about one game being a clone of another game, and I can't hear it anymore.
But capturing a solid core of players is, particularly if they are past subscribers (either now playing for free or now playing other games). Also new game, new cash shop items = more cash. Building on that solid core adds even more revenue, games with a lot of players are more attractive than games with almost none.
There is also the customer retention argument, "sure these guys are playing EQ now but for how much longer", convert as many as possible to a new addictive game but allow them to have the safety blanket of being able to move back if it is too scary.
I don't think anyone believes SOE care about their players beyond the financial gain they can accrue from them, everything done is done to help assuage spending on their products.
As said though it won't be EQ1 or EQ2, those games have their fanbase and EQN will be looking to attract more customers rather than hurt existing games in their catalogue.
'We don't know what Everquest Next is going to be, but we can be certain about one thing it is not - hardcore. And that is a good thing. Hardcore is anyway just a better sounding word for niche. I want EQN to mainstream otherwise it wont be successful.'
The main issue with this line of thinking is that in order to be successful the game must attract a multi-million playerbase..
A lot of games are very successful, EQ1 is still a very successful game even today. More companies need to start thinking about their target audience and creating games that would appeal to them (allowing costs to be lower) rather than creating games for the sole purpose of financial success and audience aquisition, which appeal to everyone yet satiate nobody for long. We have McDonalds of the MMO world, lets have a few 'fine dining resturants' as well, just because one is successful doesn't make others not.
By the way I am aware of what EQN is likely to be and that is as mentioned a casual easily accessible pick up and play game. The gaming industry isn't a very fast learning one and I suspect we have a fair few more years of chasing concurrent multi million player bases unsuccessfully.
You're saying, that companies should go for long term player engagement instead only aiming for box sales. I'm totally in the same boat with you there and did not say otherwise. I guess most publishers are going for both. Catch as many players at start and keep them as long as possible. That so many MMOs have been one hit wonder lately was not their plan, they just failed.
WoW actually was able to keep its players over time the same as EQ, it only has much more. One could ague that EQ is catering to a smaller more sophisticated audience but that is very much a matter of definition.
It would be noble by SOE to try to do a piece of art and be content with the smaller piece of the pie, but something tells me that is not what they are going for.
If they wanted to make a game for a smaller demographic with a smaller budget, they would not use their flagship IP for that.
You also have to take into consideration that EQ is also popular because its players are very attached and nostalgic about it. If the 1999 version of EQ would release today with state of the art graphics it would alienate a lot of people.
I'm also willing to trade a game that is exactly tailored to fit my taste with one that is a bit off but is much more successful. The game would get more love by the publisher and i would get my friends to play with me easier.