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Let's stop using the term "F2P"

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Comments

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them. 

    Or  they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.

    Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.

    Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).

     

    'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.   

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them. 

    Or  they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.

    Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.

    Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).

     

    "Free for me"...thats the point right there. You may like leveling your toon and hanging around, but you cannot partake in most endgame content unless you pay, hence, for "me", they are not F2P.

    I'm not too familier with STO, but DCUO for a fact, you cannot do the latest raid tiers without paying. Seeing as endgame is the main reason to play for me and many themepark players, they are free trials, not F2P games.

     

  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member

     

    Electricity is a bad example. In general people pay a fixed minimum rate to their power company. On top of that comes the price per Kilowatt Hours you spent (i.e. "base subscription fee" + "a fee for every hour of game time spent").

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them. 

    Or  they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.

    Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.

    Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).

     

    'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.   

    You didn't see the "let's not" part? I am trying to pre-empt others to using electricity as a trivial argument, which happened in another thread.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them. 

    Or  they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.

    Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.

    Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).

     

    'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.   

    You didn't see the "let's not" part? I am trying to pre-empt others to using electricity as a trivial argument, which happened in another thread.

    Sorry if it didn't come out right but I was agreeing with you. image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    The confusion over this term seems to come up a lot on these forums, moreso than any other forum I visit. I'm wondering whether the problem is the forum culture here or just the type of people it's been attracting. I'm also curious as to the age of posters like the OP who are having trouble with this term to see if it's a generation thing.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AysonoAysono Toronto, ONPosts: 164Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    The confusion over this term seems to come up a lot on these forums, moreso than any other forum I visit. I'm wondering whether the problem is the forum culture here or just the type of people it's been attracting. I'm also curious as to the age of posters like the OP who are having trouble with this term to see if it's a generation thing.

    Different people have different reactions to phrases or words normally not found in the dictionaries.

     

    Some may think "free-to-play" really no money is required to purchase the game or items inside the game but if they read the EULA they will find that's only in their dreams. Likewise, some may come to some MMORPG expecting to see hundreds of thousands of players online at the same thing but only to find out "massive" sometimes only means a hundred.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aysono
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    The confusion over this term seems to come up a lot on these forums, moreso than any other forum I visit. I'm wondering whether the problem is the forum culture here or just the type of people it's been attracting. I'm also curious as to the age of posters like the OP who are having trouble with this term to see if it's a generation thing.

    Different people have different reactions to phrases or words normally not found in the dictionaries.

    That's neat and all, but the level of bewliderment on these forums far surpasses that which I have seen in any other forum, chat or expo.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them. 

    Or  they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.

    Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.

    Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).

     

    'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.   

    You didn't see the "let's not" part? I am trying to pre-empt others to using electricity as a trivial argument, which happened in another thread.

    Sorry if it didn't come out right but I was agreeing with you. image

    Oh . haha .. no problem. Thanks for the clarification.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aysono Originally posted by Loktofeit The confusion over this term seems to come up a lot on these forums, moreso than any other forum I visit. I'm wondering whether the problem is the forum culture here or just the type of people it's been attracting. I'm also curious as to the age of posters like the OP who are having trouble with this term to see if it's a generation thing.
    Different people have different reactions to phrases or words normally not found in the dictionaries.
    That's neat and all, but the level of bewliderment on these forums far surpasses that which I have seen in any other forum, chat or expo.


    It's contrived, just like these threads. The idea is that by appearing ignorant of the meaning of the phrase, issues with the system can be more readily brought to light, swaying people to agree with the point of view. Something like that. I don't know if there is an official term for that type of argument or not*, but there should be since it appears on these forums so much.

    * It's not 'argument from ignorance', nor is it a method that Socrates used in pretending to be ignorant to get an answer because I looked them up.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon

    How about NCC?

    (No Cover Charge)

    Sure you can listen to the music, but the drinks aint cheap.

  • vandal5627vandal5627 Jersey City, NJPosts: 586Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    How about NCC?

    (No Cover Charge)

    Sure you can listen to the music, but the drinks aint cheap.

    Probably the best way to look at it.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them. 

    Or  they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.

    Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.

    Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).

     

    'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.   

    There was a thread the other day talking about how f2p games aren't free because they cost bandwidth to download, and you have to pay your internet provider for service.  As though you don't have to pay those people the same prices if you were playing a p2p game.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member
    Originally posted by niceguy3978

    There was a thread the other day talking about how f2p games aren't free because they cost bandwidth to download, and you have to pay your internet provider for service.  As though you don't have to pay those people the same prices if you were playing a p2p game.

    I get that, just not the electricity reason. Not everyone has unlimited bandwidth, it's true.

    However, I have previously seen the "use of the electricity" logic to say it's not free and find this to be a weak premise for the argument.

  • Attend4455Attend4455 BirminghamPosts: 161Member

     

    @lizardbones: good point there, it does have echoes of the Socratic dialogue, I may have to dig them all out and revisit them, also, Schopenhauer "The Art of Controversy" (also published as "Why I am Always right" IIRC)

    I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    One only need look at threads here to see "F2P" is hated by many and loved (dearly) by a few. But the term "F2P," is a marketing term coined by the very industry it serves. Saying "Free to Play" is about as useful as a grocery store claiming "Free to Shop."

    I propose anyone who dislikes F2P to stop using that term since it only furthers their cause. Use "Monetization Model," instead or simply MM.

    But they are free to play.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    It should be F2T- Free to Try

    A try means for a short amount of time. You can play these games for as long as you want. They are free to play.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,694Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    It's the same reason people call some games mmoarpgs or mmotps mmofps ect ect. They're all just mmos so why not call them all mmos ? It's our nature to want to use our language to help give more detail to a name that actually describes what it is.

    If I tell someone it's a freemium game and you say it's f2p who told the third party more about what to expect. If I say a game is a mmofps and you call it a mmo ...same thing. Nether is wrong or lied to anyone but one name is far more specific about the nature of the game.

    In some contexts MMO is fine to say, when all you care about is games which are MMOs.  Most of the time players care about more than that, so we say MMORPG or MMOFPS to specifically refer to a type of game, because players usually care about that level of information when discussing genres.

    Similarly, players basically universally understand what F2P means, especially when paired up with a genre.  A F2P MOBA immediately calls to mind certain traits which aren't typical of a F2P MMORPG.  But unlike MMO vs. MMORPG, no new information is really gained by using the term freemium, because F2P MMORPG already implied that info.

    If there were hundreds of totally free games which were being labeled F2P, then you might have a point.  But that doesn't happen, so the need for a separate term is nonexistent.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
     

    There was a thread the other day talking about how f2p games aren't free because they cost bandwidth to download, and you have to pay your internet provider for service.  As though you don't have to pay those people the same prices if you were playing a p2p game.

    Plus, in the US, broadband is mostly unlimited. I pay the same amount if i only play MMOs, or if i download 200 movies.

     

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by madazz

    In all honesty, Im sticking with F2P. People already know that F2P = Pay to compete. Now if you don't care about competition, and spending 2x or 3x the amount of time to accomplish something is no biggie, then F2P is the way to go for you. And I see nothing wrong with that.

    Exactly.

    Plus, there are different aspects of completion. In Marvel Heroes, you can "compete" the game with two heroes for free. The question is whether you count "playing other heroes" part of the completion.

    My only issue is games releasing as only F2P. I can see a F2P version of a game, but I don't get involved. Marvel Heroes is different as its not a true MMORPG. It has some MMO elements that give argument it falls into the category, but thats about it. For instance, I will never touch Rift as its F2P now. EQ2 on the other hand I keep dipping into here and there. I like that their is a sub option still. I just wish F2P didn't bring the microtransaction market to sub games though. Oh well.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    Yeh.

    F2P is obviously free for most players, and for me.

    Name me a F2P MMO that provides access to the exact same content for both F2Pers and Subscribers?

    Im not talking XP boosts and the like, im tlaking access to all of the same zones, gear, raids, dungons, races, classes etc. Any game that doesnt offer both, are not F2P..they are simply extended trials...there really is no debate here.

    What does that have to do with anything? I said "free", not "same amount of content as paid".

    50% of content free is still free. In fact, that 50% is the whole game for me. For all i am concern, the paid content may as well be DLC that i am not interested in buying.

    Usually that is called a demo ;)

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    Yeh.

    F2P is obviously free for most players, and for me.

    Name me a F2P MMO that provides access to the exact same content for both F2Pers and Subscribers?

    Im not talking XP boosts and the like, im tlaking access to all of the same zones, gear, raids, dungons, races, classes etc. Any game that doesnt offer both, are not F2P..they are simply extended trials...there really is no debate here.

    What does that have to do with anything? I said "free", not "same amount of content as paid".

    50% of content free is still free. In fact, that 50% is the whole game for me. For all i am concern, the paid content may as well be DLC that i am not interested in buying.

    Usually that is called a demo ;)

    Off the top of my head: Star Trek Online, Neverwinter, Mabinogi (never ran into a pay wall during my play sessions), Entropia Universe (damn hard to do anything for free but it is possible and there are no locks in terms of "pay to access"), etc.

    Notice how even the most draconian of those examples ( Entropia Universe) still has a live and kicking community even though there are no in-game ways to earn money, 10 PEDs if memory serves = 1 USD. Can you say the same thing about F2P MMOs with pay walls?

     

    Addendum: Content in the context of my post means quests, zones, etc, not every item that exists in the game (as such like XP potions or other quality of life items should be only acquired via the cash shop).

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    What does that have to do with anything? I said "free", not "same amount of content as paid".

    50% of content free is still free. In fact, that 50% is the whole game for me. For all i am concern, the paid content may as well be DLC that i am not interested in buying.

    Usually that is called a demo ;)

    Not when you can play to the "end" of the game. But if you want to call F2P games demo .. good luck to make it stick.

    It is just a label. Personally whether i am playing F2P games, or free demos till end game ... it makes zero difference to me.

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