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Has MMO PVE Peaked?

13

Comments

  • kingotnwkingotnw Minneapolis, MNPosts: 103Member

    Lol... PvE is crap over the past few years compared to what it once was. Some seem worried about designing a better PvE system... Hell... I would be happy with one in the same ball park as what we used to get. Twitch PvP games are addictive and easy. Call of Duty games are the same thing as GW2 and so forth, only with less firing options, and better reflexes needed.  PvP games are fine, but they aren't even close to the same thing as what a PvE designed game is. People stopped caring about PvE design when they got into the fast food type questing. There was no need to work on advancements to it, people were too busy trying to move to the next area because the one they had spent 30 minutes in was already boring to them.

     

    Lol @ PvE peaked... Come on now man... It has regressed beyond belief.

  • GreezGreez Wickie Watchie, FLPosts: 103Member
    Um, no? PvE is still, like, in its infancy...
  • AxehiltAxehilt Posts: 9,939Member Rare

    It hasn't peaked, it's just waiting for someone to come along who actually understands what the gameplay is in a MMORPG.  The core gameplay is what you're doing 80% or more of the time in an MMORPG, which is usually combat.  Most games' PVE combat lacks anything close to the nuanced skill-reward of WOW, and WOW isn't exactly the best that can be done:

    • Your character is a puzzle.  Figuring out the way to optimize your skill rotations, loadouts, and the game controls, in order to squeeze the most performance out of your character is a game unto itself.  This enables deeper gameplay where progressively higher player skill is rewarded with better performance.  
    • Threat-based grouping is a puzzle.  Figuring out how to manage the way the AI decides to attack the party is an actual game, rather than a realistic model (which might not be as rewarding of player skill, if the players were able to manipulate it at all.)
    • Your opponent is a puzzle.  He will have a set of capabilities, and there will be a way of optimizing against those capabilities (simplest example being: he casts a spell, you interrupt it.)  This layers onto the other puzzles, and rewards skill.  Ideally you want enemy capabilities to be somewhat self-evident (when he lights the ground on fire, it's visibly on fire) so that the challenge isn't about figuring out what the mob is doing, but how to deal with it.   Although I suppose this bullet point could be expanded to "the encounter is a puzzle", because it can involve environmental challenges too.
    And that's just a simple breakdown which leaves out some things like how group members interact with one another (the Trinity Puzzle, if you will.)
     
    So you have all these layers of gameplay patterns (puzzles) which create deep, skill-rewarding gameplay.  Each layer tends to have at least some interaction with the other layers (simplest example being that if the boss does some high priority ability you have to avoid, it will interrupt your personal damage rotation and you'll have to figure out where to pick back up again.)
     
    If that sort of design isn't the key to WOW's dominance, it's at least very high up on the list.
     
    The problems with PVE MMOs are twofold:
    1. MMORPGs trying to copy WOW don't even manage to recreate the tapestry of puzzles it has.  Either the character puzzle is flat (WAR) or the opponent puzzles are nonexistent (SWTOR, WAR) or something along those lines.
    2. But what players are most interested isn't a copy of the puzzles they've already mastered, but a set of brand new puzzles.  They don't all have to be new (in fact it's pretty expensive and incredibly risky to try to completely redesign the entire genre from scratch) but a very significant amount of them need to be different so the player feels there's reason to learn the new game -- so it's not the same thing they've already mastered.

    "And here, according to Trout, was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad...[continue]" -Kurt Vonnegut

    Unlike most, I reject bad ideas because they're bad and accept good ideas because they're good, and it doesn't matter who's saying it; only the truth matters.

  • GreezGreez Wickie Watchie, FLPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    1. MMORPGs trying to copy WOW don't even manage to recreate the tapestry of puzzles it has.  Either the character puzzle is flat (WAR) or the opponent puzzles are nonexistent (SWTOR, WAR) or something along those lines.

    I'll agree with your 2nd point, but not this one. I find Rift to be greatly superior to WoW as far as these puzzles go.

    The other issue you're forgetting, is that you're only concentrating on a minute portion of the game: the instances. There's the rest of the world as well, which is getting barely any attention, but it is still PvE. Most of that has greatly reduced strategy.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 25,991Member Rare
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    But with better AI, more dynamic setups, and without focusing just on progression, and even more without focusing only on combat, with really give different roles/classes different playstyle (think Thief), i do see a lot of options a lot of evolving opportunities. There's life in the old dog yet.

    Thief (and stealth) i generally think of the core gameplay as combat ... that is how you overcome your adversary.

    Sneaking up and do a take-down is fun .. but fundamentally, just another way of killing. Even "non-lethal" option (sleeping gas for example) is the same thing. It is only "non-lethal" in words.

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,891Member Uncommon

    I don't think it's about PvE or PvP.

    I think MMO's have peaked. For any number of reasons, most people aren't in to online games.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Posts: 9,939Member Rare
    Originally posted by Greez

    I'll agree with your 2nd point, but not this one. I find Rift to be greatly superior to WoW as far as these puzzles go.

    The other issue you're forgetting, is that you're only concentrating on a minute portion of the game: the instances. There's the rest of the world as well, which is getting barely any attention, but it is still PvE. Most of that has greatly reduced strategy.

    I wasn't focused on instances at all, but that has historically been the area where the puzzles in MMORPGs have been the most interesting.

    "And here, according to Trout, was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad...[continue]" -Kurt Vonnegut

    Unlike most, I reject bad ideas because they're bad and accept good ideas because they're good, and it doesn't matter who's saying it; only the truth matters.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,508Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    But with better AI, more dynamic setups, and without focusing just on progression, and even more without focusing only on combat, with really give different roles/classes different playstyle (think Thief), i do see a lot of options a lot of evolving opportunities. There's life in the old dog yet.

    Thief (and stealth) i generally think of the core gameplay as combat ... that is how you overcome your adversary.

    Sneaking up and do a take-down is fun .. but fundamentally, just another way of killing. Even "non-lethal" option (sleeping gas for example) is the same thing. It is only "non-lethal" in words.

    I thought about the single player series Thief I-III, and that kind of gameplay... it isn't just combat. The complete sneaking in shadows, taking down light, and yay non-lethal kind of combat, and mobs acting on "hear" or "see" anything kind of things.

    And now think about it for different "classes", where any class actually got personal mechanics, and where the gameplay really differ. In MMOs it is rather press button 1-5 to take enemy down. And the only difference is animation and particel effect, and maybe range. But albeit of that magic, melee combat or almost anything else feel exactly the same.  And at top of that most of the time mobs do nothing.

    If i think about Mages i do think about a old game like Arx Fatalis(or something like that) where you had to draw runes to spell, and no think about figuring actually spells with different rune, and not just to get another skill. Well old dungeon master back in the late '80 got that one. MMOs are overall dumbed down, in almost any aspect.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by free2play

    I don't think it's about PvE or PvP.

    I think MMO's have peaked. For any number of reasons, most people aren't in to online games.

    lol

  • kingotnwkingotnw Minneapolis, MNPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by free2play

    I don't think it's about PvE or PvP.

    I think MMO's have peaked. For any number of reasons, most people aren't in to online games.

    Rofl... Come on man...  The entire world is online. Consoles have millions upon millions of people playing games online 24/7. PC as well... You don't really believe what you said... Do you? :P

  • GreezGreez Wickie Watchie, FLPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Thief (and stealth) i generally think of the core gameplay as combat ... that is how you overcome your adversary.

    Have you ever actually played Thief? O.o On the expert difficulty level you aren't even allowed to kill people, and that's never the objective.

    You're confusing a thief with an assassin (or a burglar). A thief just steals stuff, he doesn't kill anyone.

  • intrinscintrinsc EGG HARBOR CITY, NJPosts: 91Member Uncommon

    The reason we are seeing more PVP based MMOs is not because PVE games are bad or because you(yes, you) hate them for your specific reasons. Tons of people play PVE content. Enough people for the big games to warrant the content over so many years. Here's the thing, the PVP games are being designed that way for a few reasons. First, it's cheaper to create PVP content. Second, the people making the game like PVP more. At that point, it's not about whether PVP is better than PVE or vice versa, but whatever gene manifestation happened with them at birth or child development that led them to like PVP more than PVE just like some people like Vanilla over Chocolate. It doesn't mean chocolate sucks since a lot of people like it, they just prefer it and that is okay. Liking PVE is okay. Because a lot of you like PVP more doesn't mean PVE sucks. Yes, PVE has seen little innovation in the past 5 years. But, PVE content at the very high levels, just like PVP content, is incredibly challenging and tough to be world-class at.

     

    If a game dev like Carbine Studios or SOE didn't think that PVE mattered, or was worth it, we would not see it in either game, but they are very prominent features of both. We don't know the details of EQN's PVE content, but there will be PVE content for new people, casuals, and higher-end hardcore players.

     

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 3,105Member Uncommon
    The only thing that peaked is PVP, it didn't just peak, it's dead.
  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,508Member Uncommon

    @intrinsc:

    You mean more like the last 30 years. Wow just casualized a lot. But PvE sucked a long time before that. EQ wasn't good, and any other MMO neither... if you talk about PvE alone, and not about group experience, community, and socializing.

    PvE was never really good at all. Just a lot of people played, or at least me, because of the social component. Don't get me wrong, some CRPGs or Games like Thief or a few other single player games do truely deliver very good PvE. But PvE in MMO was always extremely reduced to simplisity. It was always more about Progressing, than anything else. And challenge. Yeah, there are some tough Boss Mobs, but in most cases just tough because of  extremely high HP a lot of resistence against a lot of Dmg, Utitity players could use, and not so much because they acted very clever, or that the script was really that sophisticated. No it wasn't

    I got some PvE fun in Thief, or Half Life or some older RPGs, but MMOs? No. Not really.

    And to be somewhat fair.. it isn't that easy either. Because you can't made all Environment around 1 player, it can be anything from 1 - 100 players.. and so they just stay around and wait for 1 player to attack them, or get into their aggro range.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Waterlily
    The only thing that peaked is PVP, it didn't just peak, it's dead.

    I wouldn't say that. There are a lot of people who like PvP. I would say most people actually enjoy PvP. I think most people just want some ability to decide when and where they get into PvP.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • intrinscintrinsc EGG HARBOR CITY, NJPosts: 91Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    @intrinsc:

    You mean more like the last 30 years. Wow just casualized a lot. But PvE sucked a long time before that. EQ wasn't good, and any other MMO neither... if you talk about PvE alone, and not about group experience, community, and socializing.

    PvE was never really good at all. Just a lot of people played, or at least me, because of the social component. Don't get me wrong, some CRPGs or Games like Thief or a few other single player games do truely deliver very good PvE. But PvE in MMO was always extremely reduced to simplisity. It was always more about Progressing, than anything else. And challenge. Yeah, there are some tough Boss Mobs, but in most cases just tough because of  extremely high HP a lot of resistence against a lot of Dmg, Utitity players could use, and not so much because they acted very clever, or that the script was really that sophisticated. No it wasn't

    I got some PvE fun in Thief, or Half Life or some older RPGs, but MMOs? No. Not really.

    And to be somewhat fair.. it isn't that easy either. Because you can't made all Environment around 1 player, it can be anything from 1 - 100 players.. and so they just stay around and wait for 1 player to attack them, or get into their aggro range.

    I thought this thread was about as the title says, MMO PVE. This does not include every game since pong as pong was not, you guessed it, champ, an MMO.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,394Member Uncommon
    If you not going to post ideas. Well at least explain why the genre morphed into what it is today.

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Greez
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Thief (and stealth) i generally think of the core gameplay as combat ... that is how you overcome your adversary.

    Have you ever actually played Thief? O.o On the expert difficulty level you aren't even allowed to kill people, and that's never the objective.

    You're confusing a thief with an assassin (or a burglar). A thief just steals stuff, he doesn't kill anyone.

    Have you ever actually played Assassin?

    (Wait, you probably didn't, Steve Jackson games being way 'before my time' for most gamers...heh)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,190Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Pve should have a great story at its heart and we will never tire of great stories. Unfortunately lots of 'interesting things to do' and instant action over context etc etc leaves no room for story. Sooner or later designers will learn and pve will renew afresh.

    Story as in great lore or conflicts and faction disputes, most certainly.  But not story as in "here-is-a-script-in-your-hand-you-must-follow-this-personal-storyline-because-you-are-the-chosen-one" nonsense.

    Why not? It works quite well in STO. Not a chosen one story .. but a scripted one nevertheless.

     

    Hurts replay value, gets folks on a tunnel-vision track where they interact less with others, so less social.  I'm thinking 8 year game replay value here for a good MMO.  Too many of these linear games just make a big splash, then die down real fast, and leave one with the feeling of having played a single player game (RIFT).  I need the community and longevity; I want logging into an MMO to feel like logging into a chatroom of old friends back in the '90's.

  • TimothyEisenzimmerTimothyEisenzimmer Columnist Posts: 2,328Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by Tierless Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos [...]
    So many PvP MMOs?

     

    Like?


    I meant upcoming MMOs.

  • Riposte.ThisRiposte.This Toronto, ONPosts: 192Member

    I wouldn't say that it has peaked. PVE needs to be indepth, give you a sense of accomplishment.

    The epic / mythical quest lines in Everquest 2 were probably some of the most fun I've ever had PVE. Same with Prismatic, and Peacock quest lines.

    Killing dragons is my shit

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 4,402Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    No, the one theme park model first made popular by EQ and built and improved upon in WOW has probably run it's course, but there are still alternate game designs created in the past but no longer in use and certainly some ideas yet to be really explored that could be combined into a new game.

    Whether or not such a change would bring about another big hit like WOW is debatable, but unless some Developer takes the risk (and spends the cash) the world may never know.

     

     Yep well said...There still isn't a great PVE sandbox game.....THe themepark model of questing till your brains drop out is worn out.....We're ready for a new model and someone will deliver and it will successful.

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal Posts: 875Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    No, the one theme park model first made popular by EQ and built and improved upon in WOW has probably run it's course, but there are still alternate game designs created in the past but no longer in use and certainly some ideas yet to be really explored that could be combined into a new game.

    Whether or not such a change would bring about another big hit like WOW is debatable, but unless some Developer takes the risk (and spends the cash) the world may never know.

     

    Most Devs don't have many, this is why a lot use publishers, and most publishers are in it for the investment, so taking big risks is not always something they want to do, would you take a risk with 4 million dollars???  With todays MMO's heck no, being a Dev myself, I pick and choice what I want to make because gamers whine about everything and expect all my hard work for free on top of it, until people spend money, and understand that it takes a lot  of time and money to make a game, then you will continue to see the junk you do... I have said this in many posts and blogs, stop buying these games, and then publishers will take more chances......       Most publishers pay people to see what games make money and sadly its the crap we see that does make a lot of money..

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,580Member Uncommon

    MMO PvE is currently stuck in a very painful limbo.

     

    -cant make fights require more than a handful of players.

    -cant make it so you must find groups.

    -cant make it complex and interesting because it's not pug-friendly.

     

    it will bounce off once the baduals leave the genre.

    image

  • wsmarwsmar Nashville, TNPosts: 122Member

    I like both PvP and PvE for the same reason. I like them because of the human interaction, the social aspects, the competition. However, I think the second you take player interaction out of PvE, it becomes completely boring. A perfect example of this is GW2 and many games that have come out recently. Since a majority of the PvE content is solo-able, it becomes very easy. I think that is what we are seeing with PvE now. It just isn't hard anymore, it's made for the casuals, and the social aspect of games has become seriously lacking because of that.

    That being said, I prefer PvP over PvE any day, I'm just waiting for a new PvP oriented game to come out that actually has dedicated developers, otherwise I'd still be playing Warhammer. Warhammer had one of the most fiery and competitive communities I've ever had the pleasure of being apart of. Warhammer failed because people took it for its face value and couldn't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that the classes in that game weren't balanced from one class to another, but instead were balanced based on group play.

    The group play is what I believe is missing from current mmos, but that's just my opinion.

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