Games like AoC, SWTOR...Rift are not F2P, they are freemium.
The games you list can be played for free. They're free to play.
Implying they're not F2P is nonsense. They're free to play.
Personally I don't see calling a game freemium as a negative and would rather people called them that over free to play. If that's how they're set up.They're not like other free to play games. They are much more focused on try it for free but it's designed to be played with a sub. They tend to offer much more for the sub than most free to play games do for theirs
It is free to play though... no they don't say how much you can play. Your point is like saying a state park isn't free to enter because they might have an ice cream shop and a souvenir stand in there. ZOMG IT'S NOT REALLY FREE I HAZ TO PAY FOR ICE CREAMZ AND T-SHIRT!!! RAWR!!!!
Just get over it, seriously.
Maybe sub games should be called buy to pay to play or B2P2P because you have to buy in order to pay to play. Saying it's just pay to play is misleading.Because you can buy to play a B2P game without having to P2P but you cannot P2P a P2P game without having to first B2P, yes you heard it here first. Then there's expansions its more like buy to pay to play to buy to play for higher level.
Personally I don't see calling a game freemium as a negative and would rather people called them that over free to play. If that's how they're set up.They're not like other free to play games. They are much more focused on try it for free but it's designed to be played with a sub. They tend to offer much more for the sub than most free to play games do for theirs
Freemium to me sits between p2p and f2p.
If that's the term you want to use, that's fine.
But almost everyone is calling free to play games "free to play" (because they're free to play.)
Until there are free to play games which aren't free to play, they will be free to play games. These discussions always strike me as completely ridiculous because the term is so straightforward.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And for B2P, we should label it more like "Buy to Play and then Buy Some More After Paying Almost LIke its a 'F2P' Title just with an initial price tag!"
Though I guess that would be to long compared to B2P... but hey, since F2P needs to not use the term due to its cash shop (which btw mmos NEED cash to exist, fyi) it only seems right B2P stop pretending you pay once when they are set up to have you pay AFTER for cash shop goods (aka Secret World and Guild Wars 2 as the two recent big ones).
I know nit picky but hey! Which you can also bring to P2P games with WOW having mounts you buy so could be P2P with expensive mounts and future cash shop in game as well with subscription!
Sorry whew I went off topic, guess thats what happens when people make a silly topic when you basically would have to label EVERY TYPE OF PAYMENT MODEL for what they do.
they give you an excrutiatingly boring/painful experience, and then point you to the cash shop and tell you "see, this could be so much better, if you want to remove the obstacles that we purposedly put in your way, and actually enjoy the game, you'll have to open your wallet"
thats why F2P games rarely have top level players that have been playing for long, for free. the game is designed to get rid of them halfway. F2P gamers are endless game hoppers, hit the paywall, feel "forced" to leave game regardless they were having fun and were considering to stay long term, start again in another f2p just to have the same repeated.
I have played UO for 4 years straight, then L2 for another 4, and a couple years on and off in other p2p games, like Rift, FFXI or WAR
I dont think I have ever endured more than 1 month in any f2p game. I'd say 90% of them were uninstalled from my system before 1 week.
Im sure most people here could relate similar experiences
Originally posted by Arclan One only need look at threads here to see "F2P" is hated by many and loved (dearly) by a few. But the term "F2P," is a marketing term coined by the very industry it serves. Saying "Free to Play" is about as useful as a grocery store claiming "Free to Shop."
I propose anyone who dislikes F2P to stop using that term since it only furthers their cause. Use "Monetization Model," instead or simply MM.
You're assuming that people don't understand what the term means. Everyone here understands what the term means. If I use the term "F2P" to describe a game, then people have an idea of what to expect. For instance, if EQN is F2P, people know they can download, install and start playing the game without spending any upfront money.
This is just another version of the "F2P games aren't actually free" thread.
Yeh.
F2P is obviously free for most players, and for me.
Name me a F2P MMO that provides access to the exact same content for both F2Pers and Subscribers?
Im not talking XP boosts and the like, im tlaking access to all of the same zones, gear, raids, dungons, races, classes etc. Any game that doesnt offer both, are not F2P..they are simply extended trials...there really is no debate here.
Tera, you can play the entire game for free. Rift is pretty much the same but they charge for the new souls if you want them and that's the only thing you would need to buy for rift, nothing else stops you from playing the entire game.
Swtor is the perfect example of what you state and many others. These two mmo's have done F2P perfectly.
In the end they still need money to run the servers and pay the people that work at these company's.
Fallen earth as well. and @dood ;no I don't agree with your version of f2p defintion. If I can play the game for free, it is f2p. If you consider being able to log thousands upon thousands of hours in a game access all zones, craft... but be limited by races or classes an extended trial. Well thats just too bad, you're wrong.
Well, im personally a raider first and foremost....therefore Rift seems to be the only legit "F2P" option for me.
If I cant equip raid gear, or even step into the raids without paying, then the game is not F2P.
Thousands upon thousands of hours playing single player content because 5 man dungons are capped at 3 per week unless you pay....is an extended free trial...
Personally I don't see calling a game freemium as a negative and would rather people called them that over free to play. If that's how they're set up.They're not like other free to play games. They are much more focused on try it for free but it's designed to be played with a sub. They tend to offer much more for the sub than most free to play games do for theirs
Freemium to me sits between p2p and f2p.
If that's the term you want to use, that's fine.
But almost everyone is calling free to play games "free to play" (because they're free to play.)
Until there are free to play games which aren't free to play, they will be free to play games. These discussions always strike me as completely ridiculous because the term is so straightforward.
It's the same reason people call some games mmoarpgs or mmotps mmofps ect ect. They're all just mmos so why not call them all mmos ? It's our nature to want to use our language to help give more detail to a name that actually describes what it is.
If I tell someone it's a freemium game and you say it's f2p who told the third party more about what to expect. If I say a game is a mmofps and you call it a mmo ...same thing. Nether is wrong or lied to anyone but one name is far more specific about the nature of the game.
But almost everyone is calling free to play games "free to play" (because they're free to play.)
Until there are free to play games which aren't free to play, they will be free to play games. These discussions always strike me as completely ridiculous because the term is so straightforward.
It's the same reason people call some games mmoarpgs or mmotps mmofps ect ect. They're all just mmos so why not call them all mmos ? It's our nature to want to use our language to help give more detail to a name that actually describes what it is.
If I tell someone it's a freemium game and you say it's f2p who told the third party more about what to expect. If I say a game is a mmofps and you call it a mmo ...same thing. Nether is wrong or lied to anyone but one name is far more specific about the nature of the game.
I believe that's the main thing. The language. We strive to give absolute definition to ideas and concepts. Is it to clearly define something or a way to categorize and segregate things we don't wish to have in our 'preferred' definition.
Language is always changing, new words introduced into the dictionary, words morphed so the usage can encompass new meanings. The lines sometimes become blurred.
I agree with both of you because to me you are debating the same side of the coin.
Originally posted by azmundai CMTP : costs more to play CSG : cash shop game NWS : not worth a subscription TMC : two months of content
Originally posted by Waterlily IAT: it's a trap
I'll stick with MM, but here are a couple more:
DPM: Deceptive pricing model AMTS: Alot more than subscription NADTYB: Nickle and dime til you're bankrupt NFLF: NO free lunch, fool F2L: Free to login TIMGY: Time is money, gimme yours. G: Gotcha
Originally posted by Waterlily ...A F2P game is like your alcoholist brother in law who nags you for money each time you see him.
+1
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The phrase free to play is here to stay. It's prob already got a slot in Webster. But if I had world domination I would order everyone to call it share to play.
Originally posted by Four0Six Originally posted by Muntz Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose, Nothing don't mean nothing honey if it ain't free, now now.
Did you "date" yourself with that reference?
Or?
Did I "date" myself by knowing it?
XD
Having good taste in music is timeless.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why keep arguing what "free" means in "free-to-play" or "F2P"?
Both F2P and "free-to-play" are not in the common dictionaries so don't just pick whatever meaning of "free" from them and say that's the meaning of F2P or "free-to-play".
Every online game has an EULA. That's what it counts, not what you think it should count.
Originally posted by boxsnd F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them.
Or they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.
Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.
Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).
Originally posted by boxsnd F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them.
Or they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.
Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.
Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).
'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.
Originally posted by boxsnd F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them.
Or they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.
Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.
Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).
"Free for me"...thats the point right there. You may like leveling your toon and hanging around, but you cannot partake in most endgame content unless you pay, hence, for "me", they are not F2P.
I'm not too familier with STO, but DCUO for a fact, you cannot do the latest raid tiers without paying. Seeing as endgame is the main reason to play for me and many themepark players, they are free trials, not F2P games.
Electricity is a bad example. In general people pay a fixed minimum rate to their power company. On top of that comes the price per Kilowatt Hours you spent (i.e. "base subscription fee" + "a fee for every hour of game time spent").
Originally posted by boxsnd F2P haters are kind of funny. They are people who refuse when offered free things and insist on paying for them.
Or they have some brain cells left and realise very few things in life are free.
Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.
Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).
'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.
You didn't see the "let's not" part? I am trying to pre-empt others to using electricity as a trivial argument, which happened in another thread.
Comments
Personally I don't see calling a game freemium as a negative and would rather people called them that over free to play. If that's how they're set up.They're not like other free to play games. They are much more focused on try it for free but it's designed to be played with a sub. They tend to offer much more for the sub than most free to play games do for theirs
Freemium to me sits between p2p and f2p.
It is free to play though... no they don't say how much you can play. Your point is like saying a state park isn't free to enter because they might have an ice cream shop and a souvenir stand in there. ZOMG IT'S NOT REALLY FREE I HAZ TO PAY FOR ICE CREAMZ AND T-SHIRT!!! RAWR!!!!
Just get over it, seriously.
Maybe sub games should be called buy to pay to play or B2P2P because you have to buy in order to pay to play. Saying it's just pay to play is misleading.Because you can buy to play a B2P game without having to P2P but you cannot P2P a P2P game without having to first B2P, yes you heard it here first. Then there's expansions its more like buy to pay to play to buy to play for higher level.
Or
B2P2P2P2B2P4HL
The ultimate and most accurate model.
f2p = failed to pay.
AAA f2p is the last step in the process: how to squeeze some money out of the failed initial investment.
I am always amazed how failed subscription based games are considered so much "better" once they go free to pay.
The human species : so easely squeezed.
If that's the term you want to use, that's fine.
But almost everyone is calling free to play games "free to play" (because they're free to play.)
Until there are free to play games which aren't free to play, they will be free to play games. These discussions always strike me as completely ridiculous because the term is so straightforward.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ahahahh............you made my day.
So true.
ftp reminds me of food marketing
LESS IS MORE! (no salt potato chips!)
EQ2 fan sites
And for B2P, we should label it more like "Buy to Play and then Buy Some More After Paying Almost LIke its a 'F2P' Title just with an initial price tag!"
Though I guess that would be to long compared to B2P... but hey, since F2P needs to not use the term due to its cash shop (which btw mmos NEED cash to exist, fyi) it only seems right B2P stop pretending you pay once when they are set up to have you pay AFTER for cash shop goods (aka Secret World and Guild Wars 2 as the two recent big ones).
I know nit picky but hey! Which you can also bring to P2P games with WOW having mounts you buy so could be P2P with expensive mounts and future cash shop in game as well with subscription!
Sorry whew I went off topic, guess thats what happens when people make a silly topic when you basically would have to label EVERY TYPE OF PAYMENT MODEL for what they do.
I have always used P2E
Pay to Enjoy
they give you an excrutiatingly boring/painful experience, and then point you to the cash shop and tell you "see, this could be so much better, if you want to remove the obstacles that we purposedly put in your way, and actually enjoy the game, you'll have to open your wallet"
thats why F2P games rarely have top level players that have been playing for long, for free. the game is designed to get rid of them halfway. F2P gamers are endless game hoppers, hit the paywall, feel "forced" to leave game regardless they were having fun and were considering to stay long term, start again in another f2p just to have the same repeated.
I have played UO for 4 years straight, then L2 for another 4, and a couple years on and off in other p2p games, like Rift, FFXI or WAR
I dont think I have ever endured more than 1 month in any f2p game. I'd say 90% of them were uninstalled from my system before 1 week.
Im sure most people here could relate similar experiences
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
Well, im personally a raider first and foremost....therefore Rift seems to be the only legit "F2P" option for me.
If I cant equip raid gear, or even step into the raids without paying, then the game is not F2P.
Thousands upon thousands of hours playing single player content because 5 man dungons are capped at 3 per week unless you pay....is an extended free trial...
It's the same reason people call some games mmoarpgs or mmotps mmofps ect ect. They're all just mmos so why not call them all mmos ? It's our nature to want to use our language to help give more detail to a name that actually describes what it is.
If I tell someone it's a freemium game and you say it's f2p who told the third party more about what to expect. If I say a game is a mmofps and you call it a mmo ...same thing. Nether is wrong or lied to anyone but one name is far more specific about the nature of the game.
Did you "date" yourself with that reference?
Or?
Did I "date" myself by knowing it?
XD
I believe that's the main thing. The language. We strive to give absolute definition to ideas and concepts. Is it to clearly define something or a way to categorize and segregate things we don't wish to have in our 'preferred' definition.
Language is always changing, new words introduced into the dictionary, words morphed so the usage can encompass new meanings. The lines sometimes become blurred.
I agree with both of you because to me you are debating the same side of the coin.
Some good acronyms, lol
I'll stick with MM, but here are a couple more:
DPM: Deceptive pricing model
AMTS: Alot more than subscription
NADTYB: Nickle and dime til you're bankrupt
NFLF: NO free lunch, fool
F2L: Free to login
TIMGY: Time is money, gimme yours.
G: Gotcha
+1
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I agree. It gets a little tired after awhile.
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
Or?
Did I "date" myself by knowing it?
XD
Having good taste in music is timeless.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why keep arguing what "free" means in "free-to-play" or "F2P"?
Both F2P and "free-to-play" are not in the common dictionaries so don't just pick whatever meaning of "free" from them and say that's the meaning of F2P or "free-to-play".
Every online game has an EULA. That's what it counts, not what you think it should count.
Very few .. but F2P games are one of those.
Let me see ... i played STO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO. I have not paid a cent. Tell me how it is not free for me? (And let's not hair splitting about whether i have to pay for electricity. I am talking about paying the owner of those games).
'Paying for electricity' That's the weakest attempt I've seen. It's already paid for, you'd still use the computer or the tv otherwise. Unless the argument then goes, 'Well, not if you went outside'.
"Free for me"...thats the point right there. You may like leveling your toon and hanging around, but you cannot partake in most endgame content unless you pay, hence, for "me", they are not F2P.
I'm not too familier with STO, but DCUO for a fact, you cannot do the latest raid tiers without paying. Seeing as endgame is the main reason to play for me and many themepark players, they are free trials, not F2P games.
Electricity is a bad example. In general people pay a fixed minimum rate to their power company. On top of that comes the price per Kilowatt Hours you spent (i.e. "base subscription fee" + "a fee for every hour of game time spent").
You didn't see the "let's not" part? I am trying to pre-empt others to using electricity as a trivial argument, which happened in another thread.