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PVP vs PVE, Themepark VS Sandbox. Let the polls decide!

135

Comments

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon

    My vote is sandbox PvE but could of just as easily been sandbox both, if the PvP is consensual like it was in Asheron's Call.  I feel that is the best of both worlds for both crowds.

     

    Also my definition of sandbox is slightly more robust then most because for me sandbox means open world (non instanced, Zoning optional) non linear, non-quest grinding, different avenues to progress style of an MMO so to me Asheron's Call is just as much a sandbox as Eve is.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by l2avism

    Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

    Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    My vote is sandbox PvE but could of just as easily been sandbox both, if the PvP is consensual like it was in Asheron's Call.  I feel that is the best of both worlds for both crowds.

     

    Also my definition of sandbox is slightly more robust then most because for me sandbox means open world (non instanced, Zoning optional) non linear, non-quest grinding, different avenues to progress style of an MMO so to me Asheron's Call is just as much a sandbox as Eve is.

    Best of both worlds = consensual in some zones, non-consensual in others, just make sure to strike a balance between those two types of zones and make sure PVP is fun, that way you can lure more unsuspecting vi....players <.<.

    image
  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by l2avism

    The other thread was biased towards PvE and did not have a poll.

    There were also claims that the majority of gamers are strictly PvE or PvP without any evidence to back up those claims.

    A poll solves that.

     Depends on what you're trying to prove.

     

    You simply said PvP, there are some very different options there. Open World PvP, or opt in/opt out or battlegrounds.

     

    Most like to PvE with some PvP thrown in that they can choose when and where to do it.

    The vast majority hate open world PvP that can interrupt their play.

     

    So this poll could show that players like some PvP they can participate in, but won't clarify anything in regards to if that PvP has to always be forced on or if it can be opt in in some manner. The majority of PvP/PvE threads have been arguing for/against open world PvP and this poll doesn't touch that fact.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

    A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

     Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

     It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

     

    Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

    Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

     

    It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

    It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY?  Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.

    I'm a public relations/marketing manager for a software company, but thanks for trying.

    And your little diatribe about "fun" says next to nothing. The fun of themeparks derives from doing the linear scripted content. When it runs out, it stops being as fun, and people leave. Hence: SWTOR disaster.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

    That is right.

    That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.

    They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.

     

    WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.

    LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.

    World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).

    Yes, wow and maple story are pretty old. So? We are talking example of successes. Not example of success last month.

    And both steam broccoli and cheeseburgers are food. Don't tell me you don't think many MMO players also play LoL.

    WOT is a sandbox MMO? If a highly instanced pvp arena can be sandbox just by adding one element .. then i would say D3 is a pve MMO since it has TWO MMO elements (AH and crafting).

     

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

    That is right.

    That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.

    They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.

     

    WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.

    LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.

    World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).

    Yes, wow and maple story are pretty old. So? We are talking example of successes. Not example of success last month.

    And both steam broccoli and cheeseburgers are food. Don't tell me you don't think many MMO players also play LoL.

    WOT is a sandbox MMO? If a highly instanced pvp arena can be sandbox just by adding one element .. then i would say D3 is a pve MMO since it has TWO MMO elements (AH and crafting).

     

    Are you really trying to prove you have Asperberg Syndrome? How can you misinterpret what I am saying so badly and warp it to use it to prove a point they disprove?

    Maplestory is an unknown quantity to me, not sure about its population.

    World of Warcraft is in terminal decline.

    EVE-Online is growing and is trying to expand its universe to encompass other games within its Universe.

    What is more successful in your mind? A game which is dying or another game which is thriving ? Keep in mind they're both roughly the same age and in complete contrast to the money earned by both of them WoW has been dying even though it could've afford a EVE-like level upgrade in graphics, many more content expansions than it has gotten and expansion on its genre, instead its dying whereas EVE with far less money earned thus far is pushing forward and growing.

    To cut a long story short: The best sandbox game (a true sandbox with PVP and PVE in equal standing and options in your interactions with other players which are nearly unlimited) will outlive the best themepark game, this isn't theoretical, this is fact.

    image
  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member
    Originally posted by Phaserlight
    Originally posted by l2avism

    Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

    Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

    There are a large number of missions and exploration sites. It's enough to keep someone playing for weeks or even months.

     

    It's the PvP and human interaction that keeps people coming back for years.

     

    However, I don't think I'll be returning to any sort of MMORPG until the Oculus Rift is adopted.

  • l2avisml2avism DeWitt, ARPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne
    Originally posted by Phaserlight
    Originally posted by l2avism

    Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

    Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

    There are a large number of missions and exploration sites. It's enough to keep someone playing for weeks or even months.

     

    It's the PvP and human interaction that keeps people coming back for years.

     

    However, I don't think I'll be returning to any sort of MMORPG until the Oculus Rift is adopted.

    Yeah, try going for the Caldari Navy Raven mission line until completion and see how long that takes. LOL

  • AbrrahamAbrraham KopenhagenPosts: 149Member
    What about sandbox and themepark features in one? This would have been my vote.
  • ButtdartButtdart Somewhere, DEPosts: 34Member
    Glad to see Sandbox Both winning. Smedley will redeem himself if EQNext joins the ranks of SWG (before they messed up) and EVE; and he'll potentially have a game that will have a loyal userbase for up to a decade or more, as EVE is, rather than another game that is wasted money followed by layoffs.
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,476Member Uncommon

    Sandbox PvE here. I just don't want ganks that are caused by various socio/psycho paths because they have got to feel supreme(psycho) or ruin someone's day(socio). I want none of those and PvP should be seperate from PvE imo.

    My ideal sandbox(take a guess...)? Warhammer Fantasy where you can play all the "good" races(Asur, Asrai, Brettonia, Empire, ...) and you build communities and defend them from rampaging Orks, marauding norsemen, scheming Skaven, depraved Druchii or soulless creations of Nagash(vampires+undead). That would be awesome what with the enemies within, Dynamic Events, Winds of Chaos etc... If only :( <3! And then Ulthuan: :O :( >.< <3 <3! Damn! Imagine that in Skyrim's GFX :O

    Also LoTR sandbox PvE. The same as above, but set in LoTR. Also awesome!

    But it must be both sandbox(stop telling me what to do! Give me options and I'll have fun instead of these...quest/Dungeon/Battlegrounds/mob grinds) and PvE(I could live with the "both" option as long as incessant ganks were regulated and, failing that, PvP was seperate from PvE). I'd like pure PvE mmorpg because it allows more creativity with classes/abilities/etc. The second the PvP is introduced is the second that the interesting classes/abilities/... are shoved out the door because of incessant PvP crybaby wailing about imbalance(?). PvP hinders creativity imo.

    In short: Warhammer Fantasy/LoTR sandbox PvE please! Thank you!

  • niknaisniknais RigaPosts: 6Member Uncommon
    Like both but Sandbox more, I hope someday there will be games like Runescape only in great 3D graphics.
  • st3v3b0st3v3b0 Gainesville, FLPosts: 147Member Uncommon
    Now those are some interesting results...
  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common

    This poll need to explain better what is means by both.

    It means it have pve and but also have pvp on instancied zones, and or duels, and/or specific ares.

    Or it means has pvp but it inst a pure rvr only  game, it also has pve elements.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    why not have pve and pvp classes? choose your class for pve and a class for pvp.
  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    I'm not voting in this because the description for the available options are in some cases, flat out wrong.  

     

    For example, Darkfall has both, but is largely a PvP sandbox MMO.  Mortal Online is as close to both as you can get, as well as EVE.  Ultima Online had both, and reasons for doing so.  SWG, I believe was more PVE.  There are plenty to choose from.  

     

    The best model for sustainable success, outside of WOW, is a PVE sandbox with limited PvP.  There are thousands of games that allow you to kill other players.  There are only a small handful of games with an array of fulfilling content that will keep all types of gamers engaged for a prolonged period of time.

     

    I'm talking ocean mounts, flying mounts, regular mounts, housing, ships and naval warfare, sieges, all types of crafting, including fishing, deep sea fishing, blacksmithing, tailoring, tanning, alchemy, inscription, enchanting, poisons, tinkering, architecture, woodworking, and all of the harvesting skills attached to those professions.  We are talking deep player customization, house decorating, gardening, mini-games such as chess or checkers, being able to get yourself drunk, cooking, exhaustive guild functionality, guild tabards and cloaks, designer functions, treasure hunting, spellweaving (spell creation), skill based with a cap, and every type of archtype that you can possibly think of.  I'm talking skills for a necro, illusionist, priest, warlock, sorcerer, elementalist, ranger, archer, scout, druid, shaman, paladin, warrior, berserker, spellsword, thane, rogue, thief, assassin, and as many non-traditional classes that you can think of and all players to mix and match as they see fit.  Taming creatures, collecting rare non-combat items like in UO, where you could collect ropes, they had no function other than being very rare.  Holidays and special occasions can be good for that.  NPC vendor shops, a huge amount of clothing that is non-combat oriented, clothing dye's, armor dyes, weapon tinting, small things like being able to sit on chairs and benches, laying down in beds, camping,  a huge selection of emotes, playing instruments and making music like in LoTRO.  A vast achievement system with tons of things to do for all you completionists out there,   Rune or socket system to not only items, but spells and skills alike.  The ability to write books and leave notes, and to be able to display those things in bookshelves in your home.  Limited gate travel like in EQ and UO, where you sometimes had to pay people to get around.  A housing market like in UO.  These sub economies play a huge role in the success of a game.  (In UO, I played a real estate broker and made millions just by playing the market)  Any and all ideas to bring in community, because the more minds you have together, the more creative it can be.  Bazaars, allowing players to trade face to face.  A political system, where players can actually take office in one of the many cities within the game world.  Some people would love something like that.  Cities going to war, merc guilds being employed by said cities, backstabbing, intrique, drama.  Anyone remember AOC and how you could brawl in the pubs?  

     

    I could go on for days.  There is a severe lack of true PVE sandboxes that focus on non-combat systems.  I'm not suggesting PvP be excluded, rather the opposite.  However, from my experience in playing all types of MMO's for the past few decades, PvP centered games just don't stand out in a crowd.  Literally every game has some sort of PvP, but very few have meaningful alternate activities that are completely separate.  You shouldn't always have to kill something to get ahead.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

    A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

     Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

     It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

     

    Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

    Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

     

    It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

    It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY?  Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.

    I'm a public relations/marketing manager for a software company, but thanks for trying.

    And your little diatribe about "fun" says next to nothing. The fun of themeparks derives from doing the linear scripted content. When it runs out, it stops being as fun, and people leave. Hence: SWTOR disaster.

    Well, depends on your definition of scripting. All games have scripts, even sandbox games. If they didn't, then NPC's, mobs, etc. would not react in a defined manner. Even if you use a random number generator to determine what they do, it can still be figured out since it has been proven that RNG are not random (see http://www.math.utah.edu/~pa/Random/Random.html  - FYI). You are saying that Sandbox games are more fun becuae they are not scripted, but they are to some extent. They have to be.

     

    Also, you are saying the fun runs out, when the linear story is over. Well, in GW2, I don't have to follow ANY linear story, I can explore, etc. without following a linear story. And people describe GW2 as a themepark and that destroys your theory right there.

     

    SWTOR was a disaster, not because it was a linear themepark game but because they put more development time into the  voice-overs than they did the story,etc. That was the issue - players ran out of things to do BECAUSE the money was not spent on that. As a marketing person, one should know that. Blows your theory out of the water also, eh?

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

    A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

     Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

     It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

     

    Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

    Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

     

    It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

    It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY?  Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.

    I'm a public relations/marketing manager for a software company, but thanks for trying.

    And your little diatribe about "fun" says next to nothing. The fun of themeparks derives from doing the linear scripted content. When it runs out, it stops being as fun, and people leave. Hence: SWTOR disaster.

    Also, you are saying the fun runs out, when the linear story is over. Well, in GW2, I don't have to follow ANY linear story, I can explore, etc. without following a linear story. And people describe GW2 as a themepark and that destroys your theory right there.

     

    Look up emergent gameplay and see where that type of gameplay crops up (hint: it's the main reason I left GW2).

    image
  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    I have no doubt was THIS forum would decide, I am not so sure what a poll among all players of MMOs would vote. But, as Henry Kissinger used to say "That is a far too important question to leave it to majority votes."

    Pure Themeparks are simply at the end of the road, and outdated dinosaur of a (hopefully) past era. What we need are PVE+PVP Sandboxes PLUS themepark-esque quest. What we do not need is a mere return to quest-less MMOs ala UO or vanilla SWG. MMOs need to be worlds again, not mere boring quest tunnels.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    I have no doubt was THIS forum would decide, I am not so sure what a poll among all players of MMOs would vote. But, as Henry Kissinger used to say "That is a far too important question to leave it to majority votes."

    Pure Themeparks are simply at the end of the road, and outdated dinosaur of a (hopefully) past era. What we need are PVE+PVP Sandboxes PLUS themepark-esque quest. What we do not need is a mere return to quest-less MMOs ala UO or vanilla SWG. MMOs need to be worlds again, not mere boring quest tunnels.

    Good luck telling people that, most want a themepark with some sandbox elements.

    image
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal

    I have no doubt was THIS forum would decide, I am not so sure what a poll among all players of MMOs would vote. But, as Henry Kissinger used to say "That is a far too important question to leave it to majority votes."

    And Winston Churchill said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"... ;-)

    Pure Themeparks are simply at the end of the road, and outdated dinosaur of a (hopefully) past era. What we need are PVE+PVP Sandboxes PLUS themepark-esque quest. What we do not need is a mere return to quest-less MMOs ala UO or vanilla SWG. MMOs need to be worlds again, not mere boring quest tunnels.

    I think indeed that's the future, with PvP being optional (aka not "forced") of course. Some games have already started on that path.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    I bet the Eve devs would love to be in wows shoes with almost 20 times eve's current population even if "terminally dying". In 20 years wow will still have a higher population than eve.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,476Member Uncommon
    WoW is losing its playerbase and rather rapidly. Unless you think 1.5 mil/quarter is nothing...

    With that said, maybe I ought to change my mind. Maybe not PvE sandBOX, but rather a PvE sandPARK? Hmmm...

    Both would rock as long as they're done properly and done in those two IPs(Warhammer Fantasy, LoTR).
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    WoW is losing its playerbase and rather rapidly. Unless you think 1.5 mil/quarter is nothing...

    With that said, maybe I ought to change my mind. Maybe not PvE sandBOX, but rather a PvE sandPARK? Hmmm...

    Both would rock as long as they're done properly and done in those two IPs(Warhammer Fantasy, LoTR).

    But WoW is 8 years old.  That is a long time to keep it's player base up.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

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