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Why I think ESO will do a great job to advertise sandbox features.

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Comments

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.

     

    If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.

     

    Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Here take a gander:

    EGM

    IGN

    PC Gamer

    Game Rankings

    Metacritic

     

    And on Metacritic there are about 30+ critics on various websites that use words like: open world or free roam. Not one says anything about sandbox for any TES game. But you know there is a game that is frequently referred to as sandbox, Minecraft. Go on any of the above sites with a search for Minecraft and the reviews are littered with the word.

     

    Oh and for the record I never gave a definition for what a sandbox game is.  I really didn't think I would have to. You can thank the OP for dragging up this sorry ass topic, not me. The TES series has never been about sandboxes. It is a term traditionally used for games that lack highly scripted narratives or artificial goals created by the developers. Sandbox games often offer tools to manipulate the persistent open world on a near permanent basis that the player (or players) occupies. Whether that includes building structures, destroying structures or changing the landscape.

    Ohh my another temper tantrum, and yet another definition to add to the infinite list.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,542Member Uncommon

    The only time quests are a themepark feature is when the questing path is lineair and mandatory for character progression (as in quests give main xp rewards) . A sandbox can have quests. In the case of Skyrim, it is not the quests which is the themepark feature in this game.

    Skyrim has more sandbox features then most so-called sandbox MMO's. No lineair path, no classes and you can raise any skills you want. It supports mods, which can let you change the game drastically. This is in singleplayer games definately a sandbox feature. There are also no clear lvlbased zones because the world will level with you. This together with its skillbased progression, is also a sandbox feature. Most armour and enchantments on armour that you find in the world can be made. With mods, all.

    So no matter if you think Skyrim is a sandbox, it is definately not a typical themepark rpg like Dragon Age.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.

     

    If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.

     

    Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Here take a gander:

    EGM

    IGN

    PC Gamer

    Game Rankings

    Metacritic

     

    And on Metacritic there are about 30+ critics on various websites that use words like: open world or free roam. Not one says anything about sandbox for any TES game. But you know there is a game that is frequently referred to as sandbox, Minecraft. Go on any of the above sites with a search for Minecraft and the reviews are littered with the word.

     

    Oh and for the record I never gave a definition for what a sandbox game is.  I really didn't think I would have to. You can thank the OP for dragging up this sorry ass topic, not me. The TES series has never been about sandboxes. It is a term traditionally used for games that lack highly scripted narratives or artificial goals created by the developers. Sandbox games often offer tools to manipulate the persistent open world on a near permanent basis that the player (or players) occupies. Whether that includes building structures, destroying structures or changing the landscape.

    [mod edit]

    I JUST said you can find different definitions all over the web. Pointing out 5 sites does nothing. Anyone can go and search and pick and choose which sites agree with you, but what about the other sites that disagree with you? Forgot to include them in the list did we?

    There is no official definition of what a sandbox game is. What do you not understand about that? 

    [mod edit]

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.

     

    If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.

     

    Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Here take a gander:

    EGM

    IGN

    PC Gamer

    Game Rankings

    Metacritic

     

    And on Metacritic there are about 30+ critics on various websites that use words like: open world or free roam. Not one says anything about sandbox for any TES game. But you know there is a game that is frequently referred to as sandbox, Minecraft. Go on any of the above sites with a search for Minecraft and the reviews are littered with the word.

     

    Oh and for the record I never gave a definition for what a sandbox game is.  I really didn't think I would have to. You can thank the OP for dragging up this sorry ass topic, not me. The TES series has never been about sandboxes. It is a term traditionally used for games that lack highly scripted narratives or artificial goals created by the developers. Sandbox games often offer tools to manipulate the persistent open world on a near permanent basis that the player (or players) occupies. Whether that includes building structures, destroying structures or changing the landscape.

    [mod edit]

    I JUST said you can find different definitions all over the web. Pointing out 5 sites does nothing. Anyone can go and search and pick and choose which sites agree with you, but what about the other sites that disagree with you? Forgot to include them in the list did we?

    There is no official definition of what a sandbox game is. What do you not understand about that? 

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit] I pointed out five sites that show open world and free roam are the terms often used to describe Skyrim and other games in the TES series (which is the topic of this discussion by the way). They don't use the term sandbox. In my second paragraph I pointed out what type of games the term sandbox traditionally are applied to. I even named one example, Minecraft. Not once did I define sandbox. And I still don't think I have to. I simply pointed out of how the use of terms are often misrepresented and skewered by some people. So if pointing out the misuse of a term is considered stupid while providing examples to back up my point, what do you consider smart?

     

    [mod edit]

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Brabbit1987

    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Vonatar Skyrim is a sandbox? Even Morrowind isn't a sandbox.   Someone needs to go learn what a sandbox is before making a thread about it.
    I have to agree, Skyrim or other TES games are designed around three things, dungeons, questing and exploration. The only difference between it and something like EQ is that it's world levels along with you (since oblivion). They hardly even have what I'd consider a true virtual world, as they leave little to do outside of stealing or killing. Just compare TES's world with the world in Two Worlds 2, the latter has an abundance of non combat activities to take part in TES doesn't.
    Oblivion's world is more of a world than most games. The NPCs have lives that and goals that go far beyond any game I've ever heard of. At least one of them cheats on his wife, but you'll never know this unless you follow them around until the one day of the week that they don't sleep at home. Is there an MMORPG, sandbox or otherwise that does this? That's how a virtual world works. Things happen whether the player is there or not. Anyway, most sites consider Skyrim a sandbox game. There are a few hold out areas, on message boards like this one, but most of the internet, which means most of the world considers Skyrim a sandbox. So it's not surprising that someone might come here and post about Skyrim's sandbox features.  
    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.   If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.   Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.
     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.



    You are more right than not.

    When looking for the definition of sandbox games, the two terms that come up are "nonlinear game play" and "open world". So when websites call a game "open world" they are using the only term that is defined for that genre of games.

    The Wikipedia article for sandbox gaming points directly to the "Open World" page.

    From Technopedia - A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game.

    If anyone cares to reference a different source of information, I'd like to see it.

    The terms "sandbox" and "open world" to the internet are the same thing. The only places that go into the differences are forums. Which isn't surprising, people on forums argue about how to pronounce "gif", even after the creator of the image file told them how to pronounce it.

    **

    Skyrim may not be MMORPG.Com Forumite's definition of a sandbox game, but to the internet, it is a sandbox game.

    I think it would be the most accurate to say that the term "sandbox game" is meaningless, because there is no agreed upon meaning for the term.

    ** **

    I wouldn't advertise the game as any sort of sandbox, for the same reasons that they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the whole "MMO" terminology. Too many people have their own particular view of what these things mean, regardless of what the rest of the world says. I would advertise is as "open world" or something like that. Much less ambiguous.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.

     

    If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.

     

    Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Here take a gander:

    EGM

    IGN

    PC Gamer

    Game Rankings

    Metacritic

     

    And on Metacritic there are about 30+ critics on various websites that use words like: open world or free roam. Not one says anything about sandbox for any TES game. But you know there is a game that is frequently referred to as sandbox, Minecraft. Go on any of the above sites with a search for Minecraft and the reviews are littered with the word.

     

    Oh and for the record I never gave a definition for what a sandbox game is.  I really didn't think I would have to. You can thank the OP for dragging up this sorry ass topic, not me. The TES series has never been about sandboxes. It is a term traditionally used for games that lack highly scripted narratives or artificial goals created by the developers. Sandbox games often offer tools to manipulate the persistent open world on a near permanent basis that the player (or players) occupies. Whether that includes building structures, destroying structures or changing the landscape.

    [mod edit]

    I JUST said you can find different definitions all over the web. Pointing out 5 sites does nothing. Anyone can go and search and pick and choose which sites agree with you, but what about the other sites that disagree with you? Forgot to include them in the list did we?

    There is no official definition of what a sandbox game is. What do you not understand about that? 

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit] I pointed out five sites that show open world and free roam are the terms often used to describe Skyrim and other games in the TES series (which is the topic of this discussion by the way). They don't use the term sandbox. In my second paragraph I pointed out what type of games the term sandbox traditionally are applied to. I even named one example, Minecraft. Not once did I define sandbox. And I still don't think I have to. I simply pointed out of how the use of terms are often misrepresented and skewered by some people. So if pointing out the misuse of a term is considered stupid while providing examples to back up my point, what do you consider smart?

     

    [mod edit]

    Again, what you linked doesn't prove anything, Just because the 5 sites use open world or free roam doesn't mean everywhere uses it the same way.

    What exactly do you consider a sandbox? You stated Minecraft is a sandbox. Why is it a sandbox? Because you can create things? You can change the world? You can do all that in Skyrim. Actually Skyrim has many sandbox features that minecraft doesn't have. While minecraft has many features Skyrim doesn't have.

    If we where to go buy user generated content as the bases of sandbox games, then the only true sandbox isn't even a game, it's the software to create the game. It's the only way you have entire control over everything. 

    Which then says no game is fully a sandbox. This is why the term is pretty much undefined. The actual term is seriously vague. Let's analyze the word for a second.

    In a sandbox you can create things using sand. This implies the term is being used in a way to say you can create things in this box. Box implies it's an enclosed space meaning you have set a environment and limitations such as rules in which you can create in. You can't make anything outside of this box. This is the box and tools we gave you, now create, do what you want.

    If we follow that, Skyrim would most certainly can be considered a sandbox. Why? Because you can change things and create things in the set world given to you. You are able to control what your character does, and how that character interacts with others character. You can move objects, you can create and craft tools and change the world to some extent.

    Now I ask again, what is the actual definition of this term if that isn't it? If you are not looking to define the term, then what are you trying to prove? If you are trying to say skyrim is not a sandbox, then you most certainly are defining the term to your own standards. You can't say skyrim isn't a sandbox with out first defining the term.

    Also determining on how to use the terms you would also need to define it.

    Now that I think about it, your post makes no sense, it is very contradicting.

    "Not once did I define sandbox. And I still don't think I have to. I simply pointed out of how the use of terms are often misrepresented and skewered by some people. So if pointing out the misuse of a term is considered stupid while providing examples to back up my point, what do you consider smart?"

    If you are pointing out how to use the terms or how it's misused, wouldn't you first need to define it in order to use it properly or to know if it is being misused? I mean you can't misuse a term which doesn't have a proper definition. Please explain that logic to me.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.

     

    If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.

     

    Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Here take a gander:

    EGM

    IGN

    PC Gamer

    Game Rankings

    Metacritic

     

    And on Metacritic there are about 30+ critics on various websites that use words like: open world or free roam. Not one says anything about sandbox for any TES game. But you know there is a game that is frequently referred to as sandbox, Minecraft. Go on any of the above sites with a search for Minecraft and the reviews are littered with the word.

     

    Oh and for the record I never gave a definition for what a sandbox game is.  I really didn't think I would have to. You can thank the OP for dragging up this sorry ass topic, not me. The TES series has never been about sandboxes. It is a term traditionally used for games that lack highly scripted narratives or artificial goals created by the developers. Sandbox games often offer tools to manipulate the persistent open world on a near permanent basis that the player (or players) occupies. Whether that includes building structures, destroying structures or changing the landscape.

    [mod edit]

    I JUST said you can find different definitions all over the web. Pointing out 5 sites does nothing. Anyone can go and search and pick and choose which sites agree with you, but what about the other sites that disagree with you? Forgot to include them in the list did we?

    There is no official definition of what a sandbox game is. What do you not understand about that? 

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]. I pointed out five sites that show open world and free roam are the terms often used to describe Skyrim and other games in the TES series (which is the topic of this discussion by the way). They don't use the term sandbox. In my second paragraph I pointed out what type of games the term sandbox traditionally are applied to. I even named one example, Minecraft. Not once did I define sandbox. And I still don't think I have to. I simply pointed out of how the use of terms are often misrepresented and skewered by some people. So if pointing out the misuse of a term is considered stupid while providing examples to back up my point, what do you consider smart?

     

    [mod edit]

    Again, what you linked doesn't prove anything, Just because the 5 sites use open world or free roam doesn't mean everywhere uses it the same way.

    What exactly do you consider a sandbox? You stated Minecraft is a sandbox. Why is it a sandbox? Because you can create things? You can change the world? You can do all that in Skyrim. Actually Skyrim has many sandbox features that minecraft doesn't have. While minecraft has many features Skyrim doesn't have.

    If we where to go buy user generated content as the bases of sandbox games, then the only true sandbox isn't even a game, it's the software to create the game. It's the only way you have entire control over everything. 

    Which then says no game is fully a sandbox. This is why the term is pretty much undefined. The actual term is seriously vague. Let's analyze the word for a second.

    In a sandbox you can create things using sand. This implies the term is being used in a way to say you can create things in this box. Box implies it's an enclosed space meaning you have set a environment and limitations such as rules in which you can create in. You can't make anything outside of this box. This is the box and tools we gave you, now create, do what you want.

    If we follow that, Skyrim would most certainly can be considered a sandbox. Why? Because you can change things and create things in the set world given to you. You are able to control what your character does, and how that character interacts with others character. You can move objects, you can create and craft tools and change the world to some extent.

    Now I ask again, what is the actual definition of this term if that isn't it? If you are not looking to define the term, then what are you trying to prove? If you are trying to say skyrim is not a sandbox, then you most certainly are defining the term to your own standards. You can't say skyrim isn't a sandbox with out first defining the term.

    Also determining on how to use the terms you would also need to define it.

    Now that I think about it, your post makes no sense, it is very contradicting.

    "Not once did I define sandbox. And I still don't think I have to. I simply pointed out of how the use of terms are often misrepresented and skewered by some people. So if pointing out the misuse of a term is considered stupid while providing examples to back up my point, what do you consider smart?"

    If you are pointing out how to use the terms or how it's misused, wouldn't you first need to define it in order to use it properly or to know if it is being misused? I mean you can't misuse a term which doesn't have a proper definition. Please explain that logic to me.

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by Sengi
     
    ... not because It has them, but because it hasn't. 
    Don't get me wrong I think ESO is going to to be a great game but it still is a themepark. And Skyrim is a sandbox. The game is all about having an impact on the world, and ESO is not going to have that. It will have Skyrims combat and skill system but other parts like the quest content will be yout trusty WoW standard. This is still a step in the right direction, but its not the original Elder Scrolls experience. 
     
    In ESO people that played other TES games before will experience first hand what it is like to have the sandbox features that you grow familiar with taken away. I think this will illustrate to many people what the difference between an themepark and a sandbox really is, and that there can be more to a game then hunting for reward. 
     

    1st Skyrim is NOT a sandbox, its an open world game, 2 different things. None of TES games are sandbox.

    2nd, no ESO won't have Skyrim combat, far far far from it.

    3rd, make some research before posting false information.

  • JedidiahTheadoreJedidiahTheadore Beverly hills, CAPosts: 48Member
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    You mean sandbox MMO?  Cause one of the best selling franchises of all time is a sandbox. And has a new version coming out next year.

     

    Granted the online version of it was a failure.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    To answer your last question, have I beat Skyrim? Define beat? Even after you complete the main story, you have other quests you can do, and even if you have done those you can level indefinitely. However, that is besides the point.

    You say no one has proven you other wise. The reason for this is because there is no proof. What you have psoted is 5 links to some sites that use the term the way you like it. That isn't proof.

    I have heard the hosts at revision 3 call GTAV a sandbox, as an example. However, again, that is not proof of anything. The only proof that shows is people like to use the term differently.

    Ok, now however, I do understand where you are coming from. I do not agree with the op. But I also do not agree with you. I simply am saying, the term is ambiguous. Instead of linking me to other sites that use the term the way you do, link me to an official definition of that term, link me to actual proof. I bet you will never be able to because there is no official definition as far as I am aware of.

    Course maybe we can do some history research and find out exactly when the term was coined and for what game.

    Edit: 

    They seem to have been having a discussion on this exact topic here a few months back.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/384226/page/1

    Some linked this article 

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-5877-sandbox-games/

    Really, honestly though, I do not think the term  ever really had an official definition to begin with. It was a term coined and used in many different ways rather then one way. Thus, what we have today is something similar to the sonic series. If you are unfamiliar with the sonic series, sonic never had a main story and each region had it's own story. When the net became prominent all the stories converged and now the story no longer makes any sense really.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    A game that looks like it could be played on a nintendo is your proof that the genre isn't dead?

    You obviously glanced over the games without ever really looking at them or you would have seen Planet Explorers and Star Forge...should have figured as much.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
     

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Personally I couldn't care less about what google searches may tell me, as the term has been stretched far too thin over the last few years, everyone and their mother has a different interpretation of what a sandbox game means, that's for one very good reason, marketing. It was a Strategy gaming term plain and simple. Much like the shooter genre watered down what RPG means in the media driven AAA gaming market. Gaming media started labeling anything with free-form options "sandbox" it started back in the GTA 3 era.

    Also when did it become immature to inform the origin of something, or pointing out where it lost it's real meaning? No reason to get all high and mighty over something as trivial as normal genre discussion, which is all that's happening here. One might think that immature or retarded in it's own way.

     

    Is there a way to "like" your post?

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    False. Most reviews label Skyrim open world or free roam. Just like GTA, Saints' Row and the like. The only publications that would call it sandbox are newspaper video game reviews and non-gaming columnist writers for magazines like Forbes, Time and People. And real gaming publication and reviewers worth their salt knows the difference between sandbox and open world gaming.

     

    If you are so sure about your stance on this why throw out such a ridiculous statement as "most of the internet"? Then try to convert it into meaning "most of the world"? This just makes your previous claim seems even more preposterous and gobbledygook based. Sorry but like someone already explained, a sprinkle of sandbox-like features don't make it so.

     

    Advertising sandbox features was never the intent (intentional or otherwise) of ESO. Openness on the other hand is present in the game, which is shared by all TES games.

     

    Ok, that's it, time to make people feel stupid XD.

    Where are you getting your definition of a sandbox game from? Yourself?

    Type in google, "Define sandbox game." There you will find that the definition is all around different depending on the person saying it. Why is this?

    The answer is because ... wait for it ...

     

    THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION! 

    So arguing who is right and who is wrong on what a sandbox is, is just stupid and retarded. It's childish and immature.

     

    Now if you want to continue to argue about it, please show me where you are getting your information from, and I will show you 100 other places that say something different.

    Here take a gander:

    EGM

    IGN

    PC Gamer

    Game Rankings

    Metacritic

     

    And on Metacritic there are about 30+ critics on various websites that use words like: open world or free roam. Not one says anything about sandbox for any TES game. But you know there is a game that is frequently referred to as sandbox, Minecraft. Go on any of the above sites with a search for Minecraft and the reviews are littered with the word.

     

    Oh and for the record I never gave a definition for what a sandbox game is.  I really didn't think I would have to. You can thank the OP for dragging up this sorry ass topic, not me. The TES series has never been about sandboxes. It is a term traditionally used for games that lack highly scripted narratives or artificial goals created by the developers. Sandbox games often offer tools to manipulate the persistent open world on a near permanent basis that the player (or players) occupies. Whether that includes building structures, destroying structures or changing the landscape.

    I would like to make a correction. TES on PC is a sandbox. Not the console version that sells most. The PC TES Skyrim has mods that allow players to change the game the way they want as long as they have the programming skills to do so. That's a sandbox. Console Skyrim does not have this. In other words, Skyrim by design has no Sandbox elements regarding gameplay. Only the programmer side which is outside the game has sandbox features.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    To answer your last question, have I beat Skyrim? Define beat? Even after you complete the main story, you have other quests you can do, and even if you have done those you can level indefinitely. However, that is besides the point.

    You say no one has proven you other wise. The reason for this is because there is no proof. What you have psoted is 5 links to some sites that use the term the way you like it. That isn't proof.

    I have heard the hosts at revision 3 call GTAV a sandbox, as an example. However, again, that is not proof of anything. The only proof that shows is people like to use the term differently.

    Ok, now however, I do understand where you are coming from. I do not agree with the op. But I also do not agree with you. I simply am saying, the term is ambiguous. Instead of linking me to other sites that use the term the way you do, link me to an official definition of that term, link me to actual proof. I bet you will never be able to because there is no official definition as far as I am aware of.

    Course maybe we can do some history research and find out exactly when the term was coined and for what game.

    Edit: 

    HeThey seem to have been having a discussion on this exact topic here a few months back.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/384226/page/1

    Some linked this article 

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-5877-sandbox-games/

    Really, honestly though, I do not think the term  ever really had an official definition to begin with. It was a term coined and used in many different ways rather then one way. Thus, what we have today is something similar to the sonic series. If you are unfamiliar with the sonic series, sonic never had a main story and each region had it's own story. When the net became prominent all the stories converged and now the story no longer makes any sense really.

    The term did have a meaning. That meaning was stretched . As somebody has explained on this forum before "cough MMOExposed"cough" 

    the term Sandbox in software refers to software that gives the user the tools to make persistent changes. Second Life is one of the biggest MMO sandbox games. Since you have the tools to make what you want if you have the skill.

     

    the term sandbox has been stretched to mean open world and free roaming as the opposite of the term Themepark. But really that's not the same meaning as the original which I posted above. Any THEMEPARK MMO can have open world and free roaming. Matter of fact most of the original THEMEPARK MMOs had just that, including WoW at first. That doesn't make them Sandboxes because they have no tools to change the game.

    minecraft is a sandbox, since you can build and change the game world to your liking.

    darkfall the MMO is not a sandbox, because it offers no player made content. Everything in Darkfall was predesigned and can never drift off that. A city can change ownership's hands but that was designed to do so. In a Sandbox game, players would be able to build their own city in anyway they can. Not predesigned city spots in the game world, since that would have been designed by developers from day 1 to be used for building whatever predesigned city that will go there.

     

    also want to point out that not all Sandboxes are open world or free roaming ether. Which is why that new meaning is just wrong all together. A sandbox game can have player made content and not have an open world at all.

    image

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    To answer your last question, have I beat Skyrim? Define beat? Even after you complete the main story, you have other quests you can do, and even if you have done those you can level indefinitely. However, that is besides the point.

    You say no one has proven you other wise. The reason for this is because there is no proof. What you have psoted is 5 links to some sites that use the term the way you like it. That isn't proof.

    I have heard the hosts at revision 3 call GTAV a sandbox, as an example. However, again, that is not proof of anything. The only proof that shows is people like to use the term differently.

    Ok, now however, I do understand where you are coming from. I do not agree with the op. But I also do not agree with you. I simply am saying, the term is ambiguous. Instead of linking me to other sites that use the term the way you do, link me to an official definition of that term, link me to actual proof. I bet you will never be able to because there is no official definition as far as I am aware of.

    Course maybe we can do some history research and find out exactly when the term was coined and for what game.

    Edit: 

    HeThey seem to have been having a discussion on this exact topic here a few months back.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/384226/page/1

    Some linked this article 

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-5877-sandbox-games/

    Really, honestly though, I do not think the term  ever really had an official definition to begin with. It was a term coined and used in many different ways rather then one way. Thus, what we have today is something similar to the sonic series. If you are unfamiliar with the sonic series, sonic never had a main story and each region had it's own story. When the net became prominent all the stories converged and now the story no longer makes any sense really.

    The term did have a meaning. That meaning was stretched . As somebody has explained on this forum before "cough MMOExposed"cough" 

    the term Sandbox in software refers to software that gives the user the tools to make persistent changes. Second Life is one of the biggest MMO sandbox games. Since you have the tools to make what you want if you have the skill.

     

    the term sandbox has been stretched to mean open world and free roaming as the opposite of the term Themepark. But really that's not the same meaning as the original which I posted above. Any THEMEPARK MMO can have open world and free roaming. Matter of fact most of the original THEMEPARK MMOs had just that, including WoW at first. That doesn't make them Sandboxes because they have no tools to change the game.

    minecraft is a sandbox, since you can build and change the game world to your liking.

    darkfall the MMO is not a sandbox, because it offers no player made content. Everything in Darkfall was predesigned and can never drift off that. A city can change ownership's hands but that was designed to do so. In a Sandbox game, players would be able to build their own city in anyway they can. Not predesigned city spots in the game world, since that would have been designed by developers from day 1 to be used for building whatever predesigned city that will go there.

     

    also want to point out that not all Sandboxes are open world or free roaming ether. Which is why that new meaning is just wrong all together. A sandbox game can have player made content and not have an open world at all.

    Well, ya I agree with everything you said here. But we are talking about now, not before. Past is past. I use the term as it is used in the present. Also if we where to follow the pure definition, as I stated the only TRUE sandbox would be the game creation tools themselves. Minecraft I most certainly consider a sandbox, but you can't build "anything", you still are limited to very particular tools set by the game creators. When you actually think about this, every game is like this and every game is technically a theme park. Some more open then others. If I wanted to I could collect all the plates in skyrim and build something out of it. There will always be limits. You can't change the GAME in sandboxes, you can only change what the creator allows you too. It's all set and predetermined. It really is make believe freedom.

    This issue in the definition you use, is the reason why I do not use it, it's very subjective as it is.

    My personal definition of a sandbox is anything that allows the user to effect the world in someway which includes multiple choices and few limitations. Examples: GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect (to some extent), and minecraft just to name a few.

    A themepark game to me is when you do not have any choice and you are just playing a role of a character that is on rails. Examples: God of War, sonic the hedgehog, mario, halo, and Half-Life 2 to name a few. Everyone plays the same character, and everyone goes through the story in just about the exact same way.

    Again though, that is my personal idea of the difference.

    There is currently no official definition and even in the past, that was never official either.

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    To answer your last question, have I beat Skyrim? Define beat? Even after you complete the main story, you have other quests you can do, and even if you have done those you can level indefinitely. However, that is besides the point.

    You say no one has proven you other wise. The reason for this is because there is no proof. What you have psoted is 5 links to some sites that use the term the way you like it. That isn't proof.

    I have heard the hosts at revision 3 call GTAV a sandbox, as an example. However, again, that is not proof of anything. The only proof that shows is people like to use the term differently.

    Ok, now however, I do understand where you are coming from. I do not agree with the op. But I also do not agree with you. I simply am saying, the term is ambiguous. Instead of linking me to other sites that use the term the way you do, link me to an official definition of that term, link me to actual proof. I bet you will never be able to because there is no official definition as far as I am aware of.

    Course maybe we can do some history research and find out exactly when the term was coined and for what game.

    Edit: 

    HeThey seem to have been having a discussion on this exact topic here a few months back.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/384226/page/1

    Some linked this article 

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-5877-sandbox-games/

    Really, honestly though, I do not think the term  ever really had an official definition to begin with. It was a term coined and used in many different ways rather then one way. Thus, what we have today is something similar to the sonic series. If you are unfamiliar with the sonic series, sonic never had a main story and each region had it's own story. When the net became prominent all the stories converged and now the story no longer makes any sense really.

    The term did have a meaning. That meaning was stretched . As somebody has explained on this forum before "cough MMOExposed"cough" 

    the term Sandbox in software refers to software that gives the user the tools to make persistent changes. Second Life is one of the biggest MMO sandbox games. Since you have the tools to make what you want if you have the skill.

     

    the term sandbox has been stretched to mean open world and free roaming as the opposite of the term Themepark. But really that's not the same meaning as the original which I posted above. Any THEMEPARK MMO can have open world and free roaming. Matter of fact most of the original THEMEPARK MMOs had just that, including WoW at first. That doesn't make them Sandboxes because they have no tools to change the game.

    minecraft is a sandbox, since you can build and change the game world to your liking.

    darkfall the MMO is not a sandbox, because it offers no player made content. Everything in Darkfall was predesigned and can never drift off that. A city can change ownership's hands but that was designed to do so. In a Sandbox game, players would be able to build their own city in anyway they can. Not predesigned city spots in the game world, since that would have been designed by developers from day 1 to be used for building whatever predesigned city that will go there.

     

    also want to point out that not all Sandboxes are open world or free roaming ether. Which is why that new meaning is just wrong all together. A sandbox game can have player made content and not have an open world at all.

    Well, ya I agree with everything you said here. But we are talking about now, not before. Past is past. I use the term as it is used in the present. Also if we where to follow the pure definition, as I stated the only TRUE sandbox would be the game creation tools themselves. Minecraft I most certainly consider a sandbox, but you can't build "anything", you still are limited to very particular tools set by the game creators. When you actually think about this, every game is like this and every game is technically a theme park. Some more open then others. If I wanted to I could collect all the plates in skyrim and build something out of it. There will always be limits. You can't change the GAME in sandboxes, you can only change what the creator allows you too. It's all set and predetermined. It really is make believe freedom.

    This issue in the definition you use, is the reason why I do not use it, it's very subjective as it is.

    My personal definition of a sandbox is anything that allows the user to effect the world in someway which includes multiple choices and few limitations. Examples: GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect (to some extent), and minecraft just to name a few.

    A themepark game to me is when you do not have any choice and you are just playing a role of a character that is on rails. Examples: God of War, sonic the hedgehog, mario, halo, and Half-Life 2 to name a few. Everyone plays the same character, and everyone goes through the story in just about the exact same way.

    Again though, that is my personal idea of the difference.

    There is currently no official definition and even in the past, that was never official either.

    I don't even bother to discuss the sandbox versus not a sandbox stuff because its just as universally accepted as a 'failed' game versus a 'successful' one lol. I just know this particular site tends to have a lot of people who think they have the pure definition from their point of view and then circle like vultures any game they for whatever twisted reason doesn't meet their egocentric perspective.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner Originally posted by Ramonski7 Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:   OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP! Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?! Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look... You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox! Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...
    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?
    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.




    When I think of a sandbox game, I definitely think of things like Minecraft or the other games on sandbox-games.net. The problem is that there is no consensus on what "sandbox" means in reference to games. So when you say, "sandbox games cannot be finished", you don't have anything to back it up besides what you think a sandbox game is. That's why people are asking for references. You're just saying, "Because I said so" and that's just not good enough.

    If you're going to go by the games on sandbox-games.net, and then limit the games to only those games and games like them, then sandbox MMORPG pretty much don't exist. Ultima Online? Not a sandbox. SWG? Not a sandbox. Eve? Not a sandbox. Yet there is a general consensus that UO, SWG and Eve are sandboxes. I'm sure there are a few holdouts that would say otherwise, but not many.

    Media sites don't use the word "sandbox" often because, again, there's no consensus on what it means. They don't want to call a game like Skyrim a sandbox, and then have people say it's not like Minecraft. They do know what "open-world" means though, because there is a general consensus on what that means. So that's what they use.

    Until there's a general consensus, the people who say Skyrim is a sandbox aren't wrong, because the term "sandbox" in regards to games doesn't have a general definition.

    My personal thoughts are that Skyrim is an open world game. It has some sandbox features. I don't think TESO should advertise itself as a sandbox, but if it has some sandbox features, it should advertise them. Couldn't hurt.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Originally posted by jimprouner

    Originally posted by Ramonski7 Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:   OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP! Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?! Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look... You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox! Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...
    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?
    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

     

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.



    When I think of a sandbox game, I definitely think of things like Minecraft or the other games on sandbox-games.net. The problem is that there is no consensus on what "sandbox" means in reference to games. So when you say, "sandbox games cannot be finished", you don't have anything to back it up besides what you think a sandbox game is. That's why people are asking for references. You're just saying, "Because I said so" and that's just not good enough.

    If you're going to go by the games on sandbox-games.net, and then limit the games to only those games and games like them, then sandbox MMORPG pretty much don't exist. Ultima Online? Not a sandbox. SWG? Not a sandbox. Eve? Not a sandbox. Yet there is a general consensus that UO, SWG and Eve are sandboxes. I'm sure there are a few holdouts that would say otherwise, but not many.

    Media sites don't use the word "sandbox" often because, again, there's no consensus on what it means. They don't want to call a game like Skyrim a sandbox, and then have people say it's not like Minecraft. They do know what "open-world" means though, because there is a general consensus on what that means. So that's what they use.

    Until there's a general consensus, the people who say Skyrim is a sandbox aren't wrong, because the term "sandbox" in regards to games doesn't have a general definition.

    My personal thoughts are that Skyrim is an open world game. It has some sandbox features. I don't think TESO should advertise itself as a sandbox, but if it has some sandbox features, it should advertise them. Couldn't hurt.

     

    the problem is TESO is not less sandbox than Skyrim, nor is it more. Skyrim (non PC version) isnt anymore Sandbox than WoW.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    To answer your last question, have I beat Skyrim? Define beat? Even after you complete the main story, you have other quests you can do, and even if you have done those you can level indefinitely. However, that is besides the point.

    You say no one has proven you other wise. The reason for this is because there is no proof. What you have psoted is 5 links to some sites that use the term the way you like it. That isn't proof.

    I have heard the hosts at revision 3 call GTAV a sandbox, as an example. However, again, that is not proof of anything. The only proof that shows is people like to use the term differently.

    Ok, now however, I do understand where you are coming from. I do not agree with the op. But I also do not agree with you. I simply am saying, the term is ambiguous. Instead of linking me to other sites that use the term the way you do, link me to an official definition of that term, link me to actual proof. I bet you will never be able to because there is no official definition as far as I am aware of.

    Course maybe we can do some history research and find out exactly when the term was coined and for what game.

    Edit: 

    HeThey seem to have been having a discussion on this exact topic here a few months back.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/384226/page/1

    Some linked this article 

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-5877-sandbox-games/

    Really, honestly though, I do not think the term  ever really had an official definition to begin with. It was a term coined and used in many different ways rather then one way. Thus, what we have today is something similar to the sonic series. If you are unfamiliar with the sonic series, sonic never had a main story and each region had it's own story. When the net became prominent all the stories converged and now the story no longer makes any sense really.

    The term did have a meaning. That meaning was stretched . As somebody has explained on this forum before "cough MMOExposed"cough" 

    the term Sandbox in software refers to software that gives the user the tools to make persistent changes. Second Life is one of the biggest MMO sandbox games. Since you have the tools to make what you want if you have the skill.

     

    the term sandbox has been stretched to mean open world and free roaming as the opposite of the term Themepark. But really that's not the same meaning as the original which I posted above. Any THEMEPARK MMO can have open world and free roaming. Matter of fact most of the original THEMEPARK MMOs had just that, including WoW at first. That doesn't make them Sandboxes because they have no tools to change the game.

    minecraft is a sandbox, since you can build and change the game world to your liking.

    darkfall the MMO is not a sandbox, because it offers no player made content. Everything in Darkfall was predesigned and can never drift off that. A city can change ownership's hands but that was designed to do so. In a Sandbox game, players would be able to build their own city in anyway they can. Not predesigned city spots in the game world, since that would have been designed by developers from day 1 to be used for building whatever predesigned city that will go there.

     

    also want to point out that not all Sandboxes are open world or free roaming ether. Which is why that new meaning is just wrong all together. A sandbox game can have player made content and not have an open world at all.

    Well, ya I agree with everything you said here. But we are talking about now, not before. Past is past. I use the term as it is used in the present. Also if we where to follow the pure definition, as I stated the only TRUE sandbox would be the game creation tools themselves. Minecraft I most certainly consider a sandbox, but you can't build "anything", you still are limited to very particular tools set by the game creators. When you actually think about this, every game is like this and every game is technically a theme park. Some more open then others. If I wanted to I could collect all the plates in skyrim and build something out of it. There will always be limits. You can't change the GAME in sandboxes, you can only change what the creator allows you too. It's all set and predetermined. It really is make believe freedom.

    This issue in the definition you use, is the reason why I do not use it, it's very subjective as it is.

    My personal definition of a sandbox is anything that allows the user to effect the world in someway which includes multiple choices and few limitations. Examples: GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect (to some extent), and minecraft just to name a few.

    A themepark game to me is when you do not have any choice and you are just playing a role of a character that is on rails. Examples: God of War, sonic the hedgehog, mario, halo, and Half-Life 2 to name a few. Everyone plays the same character, and everyone goes through the story in just about the exact same way.

    Again though, that is my personal idea of the difference.

    There is currently no official definition and even in the past, that was never official either.

    Well thats the problem. If you use the new term for Sandbox which isnt correct, then WoW would be considered Sandbox because it has Freeroaming and Open World. Hey just about every MMO with a persistent world would be a Sandbox since they also have freeroaming and open world.

    Nothing makes Skyrim more sandbox than WoW, except the PC moding which we are not talking about here.

    image

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Honestly I don't understand why the point I'm trying to make seems so confusing. I'll break it down for you:

     

    OP: ESO is so themepark and Skyrim is a sandbox game. Why take away our sandbox based IP!

    Poster I quoted: yeah most of the internetz knows Skyrim is sandbox and the world knows its sandbox what gives?!

    Me: Oh I've seen a few reviews most of them seem to call it open world or free roaming but not sandbox. See look...

    You: WTH is sandbox, you explain sandbox and prove to me why Skyrim is not sandbox!

    Me: Have you beaten Skyrim yet? I cannot remember the last time I beat a sandbox game...

    The pure sandbox is a dead genre.  So why are you even wasting your time with this definition pissing match?

    I beg to differ. Check out this site: Sandbox-games.net

    And honestly I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone. A poster says most of the internet call Skyrim a sandbox game, so I'm like um...no...not the ones I frequent...you know...gaming sites. And I provide links to what I have actually witnessed. He, nor anyone defending his statement has shown any proof otherwise. But for some reason I'm asked to define sandbox. And I'm like....um...wuuu?...why?

     

    Point is, people can get away with bashing ESO (which even isn't out yet) because of their misconstrued notion of what sub-genre TES games fall under. And when people like me try to correct them, we get blasted for pointing out facts. Yes, yes we all know that TES games offer a sh!t ton of choices. But when it's all said and done the game can be finished. Hence the reason so many publications label it as open world or free roaming and not sandbox. You don't finish a sandbox game. Period.

    To answer your last question, have I beat Skyrim? Define beat? Even after you complete the main story, you have other quests you can do, and even if you have done those you can level indefinitely. However, that is besides the point.

    You say no one has proven you other wise. The reason for this is because there is no proof. What you have psoted is 5 links to some sites that use the term the way you like it. That isn't proof.

    I have heard the hosts at revision 3 call GTAV a sandbox, as an example. However, again, that is not proof of anything. The only proof that shows is people like to use the term differently.

    Ok, now however, I do understand where you are coming from. I do not agree with the op. But I also do not agree with you. I simply am saying, the term is ambiguous. Instead of linking me to other sites that use the term the way you do, link me to an official definition of that term, link me to actual proof. I bet you will never be able to because there is no official definition as far as I am aware of.

    Course maybe we can do some history research and find out exactly when the term was coined and for what game.

    Edit: 

    HeThey seem to have been having a discussion on this exact topic here a few months back.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/384226/page/1

    Some linked this article 

    http://www.cracked.com/funny-5877-sandbox-games/

    Really, honestly though, I do not think the term  ever really had an official definition to begin with. It was a term coined and used in many different ways rather then one way. Thus, what we have today is something similar to the sonic series. If you are unfamiliar with the sonic series, sonic never had a main story and each region had it's own story. When the net became prominent all the stories converged and now the story no longer makes any sense really.

    The term did have a meaning. That meaning was stretched . As somebody has explained on this forum before "cough MMOExposed"cough" 

    the term Sandbox in software refers to software that gives the user the tools to make persistent changes. Second Life is one of the biggest MMO sandbox games. Since you have the tools to make what you want if you have the skill.

     

    the term sandbox has been stretched to mean open world and free roaming as the opposite of the term Themepark. But really that's not the same meaning as the original which I posted above. Any THEMEPARK MMO can have open world and free roaming. Matter of fact most of the original THEMEPARK MMOs had just that, including WoW at first. That doesn't make them Sandboxes because they have no tools to change the game.

    minecraft is a sandbox, since you can build and change the game world to your liking.

    darkfall the MMO is not a sandbox, because it offers no player made content. Everything in Darkfall was predesigned and can never drift off that. A city can change ownership's hands but that was designed to do so. In a Sandbox game, players would be able to build their own city in anyway they can. Not predesigned city spots in the game world, since that would have been designed by developers from day 1 to be used for building whatever predesigned city that will go there.

     

    also want to point out that not all Sandboxes are open world or free roaming ether. Which is why that new meaning is just wrong all together. A sandbox game can have player made content and not have an open world at all.

    Well, ya I agree with everything you said here. But we are talking about now, not before. Past is past. I use the term as it is used in the present. Also if we where to follow the pure definition, as I stated the only TRUE sandbox would be the game creation tools themselves. Minecraft I most certainly consider a sandbox, but you can't build "anything", you still are limited to very particular tools set by the game creators. When you actually think about this, every game is like this and every game is technically a theme park. Some more open then others. If I wanted to I could collect all the plates in skyrim and build something out of it. There will always be limits. You can't change the GAME in sandboxes, you can only change what the creator allows you too. It's all set and predetermined. It really is make believe freedom.

    This issue in the definition you use, is the reason why I do not use it, it's very subjective as it is.

    My personal definition of a sandbox is anything that allows the user to effect the world in someway which includes multiple choices and few limitations. Examples: GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect (to some extent), and minecraft just to name a few.

    A themepark game to me is when you do not have any choice and you are just playing a role of a character that is on rails. Examples: God of War, sonic the hedgehog, mario, halo, and Half-Life 2 to name a few. Everyone plays the same character, and everyone goes through the story in just about the exact same way.

    Again though, that is my personal idea of the difference.

    There is currently no official definition and even in the past, that was never official either.

    Well thats the problem. If you use the new term for Sandbox which isnt correct, then WoW would be considered Sandbox because it has Freeroaming and Open World. Hey just about every MMO with a persistent world would be a Sandbox since they also have freeroaming and open world.

    Nothing makes Skyrim more sandbox than WoW, except the PC moding which we are not talking about here.

    Well, I just use the terms as they are used today. Language is meant for communication. It changes constantly and you need to keep up with those changes. The correct way for me is to use it like everyone else is using. If you do other wise, people do not understand you and language loses it's meaning.

    Would you rather be understood or would you rather be the person who questions it and isn't understood by anyone?

    However, I will keep in mind the term that you use, and it's probably best you keep in mind the term everyone else uses. Adjust accordingly.

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