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Does the combat get better at 50? Yes.
bluevampyre
Member Posts: 23
First off, I am an FF fan but no, definitely not a fanboy. I was one of the people that was eager to get 1.0 in the hopes that it would be just like FFXI but with better graphics, but quit after the first few weeks simply because the game was atrocious.
I came back shortly after patch 1.19 when the game was in a playable state and I agree with the majority (speculation) of legacy players who consider the patch 1.23 and onwards battle system to be superior to the current system (personal opinion).
However, I do see a lot of posts from people coming off other games mostly criticizing how the current battle system is too simple, too spammy (I agree to an extent) and too WoW-like (somewhat true). People ask if it gets better at later level or if it stays the same as the basic gameplay you start of with from lower levels.
I'm here to try and provide somewhat of an insight as to how it improves at later levels and especially when you're 50.
First off, I'm not gonna deny the fact that the current system is more similar to WoW that it is to the 1.23 combat system in the way that you are governed by a global cooldown (2.5 sec in this case) that affects almost all your abilities with very few exceptions. Most of the personal buffs, stuns, and special class-themed cooldowns are exempt from the gcd but almost all damaging and healing abilities are tied to it.
At first it may seem very simple and straight forward for all classes, you use the most powerful ability currently available to you as fight an enemy, may it be in or out of combos. This is especially simple for casters and archers who have no such combo systems in place and might fight it even somewhat boring, I can see that.
However, all this starts changing as you progress with your levels, and it's a trend of increasing complexity which will start becoming apparent around the time you reach level 30.
Before I had access to my legacy character I was a pretty big detractor of the current battle system. I thought it was boring, that it lacked depth compared to XI or 1.23 and was inferior even to WoW's system because of the lack of individual cooldowns on abilities. However, after playing around with all the classes at level 50 and doing the level 30+ dungeons I can see now that there are nuances to the combat system that wasn't readily apparent when I was playing a lowbie beta character.
Below is a somewhat rough overview of how each of the classes become more interesting as you gain levels. Please be reminded that this is only through limited testing, and we're only in beta, with more revisions to come later. If you're only interested in a specific class, feel free to scroll down.
Warrior - let's start with tanking. Warrior honestly is fairly basic and doesn't get much more complicated than when they started. The main reason for this is because of the new engine, they're able to implement dungeon encounters that are much more complex than before. Since the tank is almost always the one in charge of handling mechanics (dodging/stunning boss' special moves, moving the boss out of bad areas etc), the added complexity of the role comes not from the class but from the boss encounters themselves. Stunning is an almost essential part of tanking, and for that you have to watch out not only for the red aoe circles but also for long cast abilities. You also gain access to the whole defiance/wrath stacking mechanic, which is fairly simple but if you're tanking a boss, timing when to use Inner Beast and utilizing the heal effect is a nice added element.
Paladin - somewhat similar to Warrior in the sense that you're still in charge of boss mechanics and dodging/positioning but with an additional resource to worry about: mp. Unlike Warriors who can tank multiple mobs and hold aggro just by spamming Overpower, Paladins rely on Flash which is very mana-intensive. Normally this isn't an issue since normal combos have innate threat-generating quality but when it's time to tank multiple mob, you better have some spare mp. Thankfully Paladins get access to another combo that while it doesn't generate any additional threat from damage, it restores mp. And this is where Paladins have an extra mechanic to get used to, knowing when to expend and actively replenish their mp. Add to that a wide array of defensive cooldowns they get access to and it becomes more reactive and tactical that what it starts off as.
Dragoon - now I'm gonna be honest, the physical dps classes are probably the most basic ones compared to the others, but hey, that's always been the case in every MMO. I played a Hunter in WoW and it was never any more complicated than following a simple priority queue of your most powerful abilities (rotation is a common but inapt term for this priority queue of abilities). With Dragoon it's mostly a small matter of position yourself correctly to maximize the damage potential of your weaponskills. You get access to 2 main combos, the second of which is started from behind the target and used only to put up the DoT effect from Chaos Thrust, otherwise you stick to your main, more damaging combo. You do get DoT/Slow weaponskills to use when appropriate but otherwise it's just a matter of cycling through your combos and using your Jump cooldowns to maximize efficiency. Sure it's simple and if you really wanna play badly you can stick to just pressing 1,2,3. But if you're even half a decent player you'll be utilizing at least 10 keybinds not including your stun and personal buffs.
Monk - somewhat similar to Dragoon with the exception that your top priority is keeping up your Greased Lightning buff, which provide an excellent increase in damage and, unique to Monk, a fairly significant increase in Skill Speed. This means at level 50, with proper gear and full Greased Lightning buff, your global cooldown would be closer to a flat 2 seconds instead of 2.5 seconds. This may not seem much but it is very noticeable in combat. You have less time to decide what your next action will be, and since Greased Lightning wears off in just 12 seconds if not refreshed, it's top priority to be able to execute a skill that refreshes it before it runs out. That's in addition to other abilities you may want to perform outside of your normal combos, which is again, like Dragoon you get 2 main combos, which are even more demanding in terms of positioning for maximized damage.
Bard - mainly straight-forward in most cases with the exception of utilizing songs which I have to admit I haven't had the opportunity to test out in a party setting because of the lack of level 50 party content. The dps part of Bard seems very simple and doesn't change much from what it is at low levels. You don't have any combos, you do get access to 2 strong DoTs that are essential to keep up on bosses. You get Straight Shot that grants a 10% damage increase self-buff but your main weaponskill (Heavy Shot) also has a chance to proc a buff that makes the next Straight Shot a guaranteed critical hit. You want to take advantage of the proc not only to score a critical hit but to refresh the Straight Shot buff on yourself. So it boils down to a proc-based gameplay which is more reactive than a straight combo-based playstyle utilized by the other physical dps classes. The simplicity of this part will be (I'm guessing) augmented by the role that songs will play later on in end-game situations.
White Mage - people who say healing in this game is so easy and simple that Conjurers should be nuking mobs half the time to help dps simply haven't tried healing in later levels. This is the most hectic and stressful role in the game, period, even more so than tanking. Sure at lower levels you can spam heals as much as you want and then nuke when the tank is in the green. But at higher levels there's an issue: mp management. Simply put, despite getting access to different tiers of healing spells, this role is not like other MMOs where it's just a given to use the highest ranked spell you have access to. You try spamming Cure II to your heart's content? You'll be oom halfway through a boss fight. Instead SE decided to inject an element of luck to healing. Much as Bard employs a proc-based dps style, White Mage is also dependent on procs to save mp on long fights. Each lower tier of Cure spell has a chance to proc a buff that lets you cast the next Cure spell in the ladder with no mp cost. This is in addition to keeping everyone buffed up and dispelling ailments on party members. The most traditionally reactive-style of playing in MMOs just got even more reaction-based.
Black Mage - again, like Bard this is a proc-based style. In a sense this is most interesting class to play simply because there are a few different ways which it can be played. For people who don't bother looking into their abilities this would seem very simple: simply spam Fire or Fire III until your run out of mp, then switch to Blizzard/Blizzard III. For the min-maxers that have been testing the dynamics of Black Mage it's not quite so simple. You get access to tiers of Thunder spells in addition to the usual Fire/Blizzard exchange and in most cases, stacking all 3 Thunder spells provide excellent damage in addition to providing a high chance to proc (5% per tick per spell) a buff that lets you cast your next Thunder tier spell instantly and with no mp cost, plus having the normal DoT damage added to the initial damage. While your watching for that proc you can also spam your basic Fire spell for a 30% chance proc of making your next Fire III spell instant cast and cost no mp. All of this makes for a very hectic gameplay when trying to maximize your damage in addition to your usual CC duties in a party.
So there you have it. The combat does get more interesting at later levels. This matter of opinion will differ from person to person and I'm not even gonna try to persuade someone who thinks the combat sucks even at 50 into thinking differently. But if you're one of those unbiased testers truly wondering if it gets more interesting later on, then I say it definitely does. Unlike other MMOs that have very straight-forward learning curves, where what you need to do to play your class well is fairly obvious even at high levels, the system currently in place may seem simple, but obscure elements and mechanics start presenting themselves are you gain more level and acquire more traits.
My request to each of you is to get to at least level 30 and test out group content before deciding what you think of the combat system and party dynamics. This is a more traditional MMO in the sense that the lower levels are very basic and somewhat boring but become more interesting later on. As opposed to the newer generation of MMOs where the combat seem revolutionary at first even at low levels, but remain exactly the same throughout the rest of your journey towards the level cap, essentially giving you the impression that you have acquired no newfound powers but simply get decked out in prettier gear. Here's hoping that FFXIV delivers the old-school feeling of character growth and depth while presenting it in a more accessible, mass-friendly package.
Edit: Some additional info regarding the class/job systems.
In regards to classes being able to split off into different paths, this is only partially true. While each class have their own specific skill set, some select skills are accessible by other classes by means of the cross-class ability system. This means that depending on your level, you may "equip" abilities from other classes and use them as long as they are "equippable" by your class. At level 50 you have access to 10 cross-class abilities from other classes.
For example, as a Thaumaturge, I have 17 skills in my Thaumaturge skill set at 50, but I can also pick and use 10 abilities from other classes. This makes it more flexible when soloing as I'm able to use the healing skills from other classes.
In addition to the "class" system, there's also the "job" system in place. For each of the 7 battle classes, there is a corresponding job associated with them as follows:
Class name > Job name:
Marauder > Warrior
Gladiator > Paladin
Lancer > Dragoon
Pugilist > Monk
Archer > Bard
Thaumaturge > Black Mage
Conjurer > White Mage
The purpose of the jobs are more specialization in parties. Jobs are more focused on their particular role and sacrifice the flexibility of the cross-class system for more effectiveness in party situations. Instead of having access to 10 cross-class abilities from any of the other classes, you only gain access to 5 cross abilities from 2 specific classes pre-determined by your job, in addition to 5 new job-specific abilities.
For example, I use my Thaumaturge for soloing, but in parties I turn my Thaumaturge into a Black Mage. I lose my healing skills from other classes and I'm limited to just the Archer and Arcanist class skills. Instead I get specific Black Mage abilities that enhance my role in parties as a pure damage dealer. Sacrificing the utility of self-heals for enhanced damage potential.
At first it may seem confusing because it works much like "specs" or "talent trees" in other games. So why the additional names? Simply put, each job have their own specific lore and quest lines distinct from classes. You unlock them through questing post level 30 and acquire additional skills through each job quest line.
Furthermore, while currently each of the 7 classes are only able to take on one job. Come release, Arcanist will be the first class to branch off into 2 distinct jobs, Summoner and Scholar.
Comments
Looks like a well written thread.
I'll let you know my thoughts when I've time to read it.
Though just so I have something to say before that point, we've yet to really see any end game stuff as we've only been playing level 50s against level 29 content at best. There may have been cases where we see a level 43 mob or something, but trash mobs in the open world are hardly intended to be hard for max levels. Hehe.
wow thanks for the indepth review, im hoping the pvp will be alot different and more viceral.. but im sure itll probably be almost the same,
they should make range attacks have reticles.. i just can't stand auto aim, no matter where you run or what you do.. its gonna hit and there is nothing you can do about it
I have been critical of the combat system, but the OP does an excellent job of describing how the system and classes progress into the late-game.
At its core the long GCD and lowish number of skills per class especially early are pretty large black marks on the game. There is some complexity when it comes to maximizing your effectiveness and managing mp/tp. We will see if this matters at endgame.
On the one hand, I'm inclined to think it will be more fun once I've gone farther into the game, and I've already begun planning out a long-term leveling strategy I believe will maximize my fun and efficiency given my playstyle.
On the other, "It gets better" is not a solution to the problem "It's dull now."
A game doesn't get 200 hours to make an impression. For many players it might only get 20, if that. The onus is on the developer to improve the game in order to convince uncertain players (if it wants their money). A player's only responsibility as far as how to spend their money and leisure time is to themselves, not to the developer and certainly not to fans emotionally invested in a game's success.
The fact of the matter is that the dull combat through the early game is receiving relatively more attention than other "problems" with the game right now, and ignoring it will have consequences both for the game's reception and its long-run health. There are too many other options out there now and on the horizon, and at face value FFXIV is not that much better than these other options that it will automatically get the benefit of the doubt from those uncertain whether they want to stick with it, go back to _______, or start waiting for ArcheAge/WildStar/EQ Next/ESO.
Can't make everyone happy.
If people like other MMORPGs better they are going to play them. I don't think Square Enix needs you worrying about them, plenty of people seem interested in the game regardless. Who knows how combat might change down the road, but you can't silence all critics on the internet.
I found GW2's and Tera's combat to be dull coming from years playing RPG's that didn't have limited hotbars and a 'dodge" skill. But to others that is the wave of the future. So maybe the next FF MMO will have that style combat and it will be more to their liking, but seeing as how FFXI is still going with its combat system I wouldn't hold my breath that just because you don't like the current system they are necessarily going to change it.
Anything can happen, but if you really don't enjoy it then you probably should just play something you enjoy right out of the box. For many others their experiences in a limited beta has made them take a complete 180 degree reversal on their stance on this game and it is getting a lot of word of mouth hype precisely because some people do like the game after they have actually played it.
The first version of this game had only its name and the hopes that it would change at launch to keep people interested. There is no way anyone can seriously make that case any longer, FFXIV definitely had to prove itself and repair its tarnished reputation, and while not everyone likes it many people were converted by actual playtime.
Yoshida's comments on the battle system certainly don't seem to hint at a major change at least before release and I'm sure they know it will cost them some subs (just like changing it to any other possible system would too).
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
This is kind of irrelevant, honestly. Starting at level 1, you can look in your skill book and get a rough idea of how your class will play; I was not surprised by the OP's descriptions of endgame play because I had done this. So anyone who pays any attention and has made up their mind to stick with the game is not going to be dissuaded so easily. Let's stop pretending we are all representatives of this supposed zero-attention-span mob.
As far as being 'dull now' - to the extent that that is true, there is good reason for it; the game is designed to accommodate people who have never played an online game before; there needs to be a minimal barrier to entry for those people. Experienced MMO vets on the other hand, will zoom past the 'dull' stuff and quickly reach 20-25 (it certainly wouldn't take any MMO vet anywhere at all near 200 hours to reach level 30, I can tell you that much).
You don't have to take the game 'at face value' - do your research, participate in the open beta test if you can't get a beta key, etc. These seem like things anyone seriously interested in investing in the purchase and sub to an MMO might do.
Ok, how mindblowingly bad is the combat if "it gets better at 50" means depending on class you get to keep track of 1 or 2 dots/procs and the gcd goes down to 2 seconds.
The combat is clearly terrible, the question for ffxiv is: will they be able to make content that is so interesting it makes you forget about the terrible combat.
sure magicaly combat turn 180 degree and its awesome after 50
no its not its still the same as lower levels just with more skills to rotate
Chill. He could have titled the thread 'It gets better *by* 50'. Combat gets more interesting as you level (as a response to people playing 1-10 on one class and lamenting its simplicity). He just wanted to emphasize that endgame, when you will have all your abilities, will be especially involved/interesting.
If you'd read his post, you'd realize that your characterizations of things are overblown. Then again, not every class has to be extremely complex to play to be enjoyable either; like he said, some are more involved to play than others - such is pretty commonly the case for MMOs.
What people fail to realise, is that there are 2 sides to this coin, PvE progression, AND PvP progression, two sets of abilities, earned through the respective environment. As a level 30 bard, I had alot of fun in open world kiting big baddie fate bosses and stance dancing my chocobo, combat was straight forward, too much pew pew, too much aggro.
Looking forward to seeing the PvP side of ability progression.
Games should be interesting and engaging right off the bat. FFXIV is not.
I couldn't force myself to log into the 3rd beta. The combat was that dull.
FFXI on the other hand was a game where I couldn't force myself to quit playing, it was that good. I remember partying for 5-6 hours only to realize it when the party stopped and I looked at the clock.
SE completely missed out on the importance of party based gameplay and the need for skilled comrades in encouraging a healthy linkshell. FFXI was such a game where people remembered great players and looked out for them at their next party. With such a fast leveling curve FFXIV effectively castrates this mechanic.
I don't see anything in FFXIV that can give me that same sense of accomplishment as FFXI when I played my Mithra War/Thf and the Whm cast benediction... I dbl attack Gax (2 crits), then Provoke, then Keen edge(Crit), and another dbl attack(2 crits). Mob pulls off the Whm nearly killing me before the Pld gets agro back saving the party from a wipe.
There is NOTHING in FFXIV that can equal something like that. The combat mechanics are flat out dull compared to it. Hell they are even dull when compared to WoW.
hmmm.... as someone who played FF11 when level cap was 75 I could not disagree more. First of all you're looking at this game as if it's FF11-2, which is not, cosmetics aside there's not much between the two that can be directly compared.
Ask anyone who isn't affected by nostalgia goggles and they will quickly tell you that a game similar to FF11 Pre-Abyssia will not work in todays current market. FF11 was incredibly grindy with punishing mechanics which I admit gave a sense of accomplishment once you accomplished even the most trivial tasks. But that was also what kept a lot of players away, the game was an absolute time sink that in most cases if you didn't have 4+ hours of play time you wouldn't accomplish much. Heck the only reason I was able to enjoy that game was because I was in school and didn't have much responsibilities that allowed me to spend 6 hours playing at a time.
Combat... well in my opinion FF14 ARR makes FF11 combat dull and uninterested the only saving grave it had was timing skill-chains with magic burst (Nobody uses them anymore). Of course most make the mistake of comparing end-game combat with low-level starting areas which i'm hoping you aren't doing right? (I hope you're not...) compare level 10 FF11 to level 10 FF14 ARR or any other game for that matter and you'll see how trivial that point is.
They want to appeal to both casual and hardcore, that's why the game is easy for the first 15 -19 levels by design for new players who have no experience in MMOs. I actually like how they ease in new elements of the game as you progressed, instead of being dropped into a game world without any idea of what is what forcing you to look things up online.
The reason FFXI combat felt (to seems extend still feels) much more rewarding and involved is the death penalty. Even now since they have reduced the exp loss it still stings if you die in any end game event because most of the time it means the end for this run. Dying means something in FFXI still to this day.
The only other game that is remotely similar in terms of the death penalty is EvE online. One reason the game feels rewarding and hard.
Does the combat get more interesting after a few weeks of gaming?
Yes.
Should the combat take a few weeks of gaming to get more interesting?
No.
I personally do not care much for the combat itself since i have realized that the things i enjoy the most in a MMORPG are exploration, crafting and above all, socialization, but pretending the issue is not there is only going to drive many potential players away.
People should be having fun from the start or after a very short amount of time.
If they are not doing so, things are not ok.
Good thing it doesn't take a few weeks to get one class to the cap, let alone for the combat to start getting interesting
http://www.youtube.com/ffxivartist
I mean, I think interesting is a stretch, while I admit I only got to 30 on my GLD and have nowhere near your experience, even if it sped up dramatically by a full second and you gained abilities that were very different and mostly all necessary, interesting would be hopeful. MP management can create some priority in your rotation but it won't detract from the waiting. Combat in ARR is passable and there isn't all that much going on right now, I think this is what a lot of non diehard FF fans are looking at.
Hey maybe I'm wrong, and it will be way more fluid and and varying at 50, which with the awesome bosses will be "interesting" to play.
and the combat can go through changes pretty easly if it has to look at 1.0
Combat is boring when you grind mobs for 14 hrs a day, four days straight.
Levels won't fix that.
That's simply not true - at least that's not the reason I found FFXI combat interesting; actually dying several times in a row made me want to quit playing more than it got me involved. I once stayed up all night leveling and realized that I had died enough times to end up with less xp than when I started. When I finally got that next level, I thought "thank God, now please don't let me die anymore", and constant nervousness about possibly dying, no rewarding feeling. I don't understand this viewpoint at all.
This is even truer for FFXI when you could die just because you pulled a mob solo and got unlucky with auto-attack hits, or miscalculated that you could solo something that cons as 'decent challenge', or - if grouping - when you get a bad pull, or people trained mobs to the zone and your party was nearby to pick up collateral aggro, or you ran from any of the above and the mob followed you all the way to the zone border, and the server couldn't load your zone transition fast enough, so the mob would still kill you anyway, etc. "Yay, now I get to spend a bunch of time getting all that xp back - I bet I'll feel like I accomplished something afterward, and not like I'm wasting my time." Yeah, no.
I suspect everyone taking this viewpoint felt they had an overall rewarding experience with FFXI or some other game, but they, in retrospect, just arbitrarily selected one incidental feature of such games and decided that that's where the fun came from...the harsh death penalty thing is a nice theory, but if it holds at all, it definitely doesn't hold for everyone.
At what point did anyone mention grinding?