FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all
i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...
I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".
There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will. The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game. Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.
These games aren't real or intended "sandboxes". I was talking only about sandboxes mmos.
In that case, you are saying sandbox MMOs take freedom away from players. Why is that a good thing?
These things aren't "freedom".
Choices are not freedom?
Let's be specific and not play the semantic game. why is taking the choice of pvp away from the players a good thing?
Some things aren't "choices", but reality. Sandboxes try to simulate reality.
Originally posted by Benedikt Originally posted by maccarthur2004Originally posted by nariusseldonThe freedom of not pvp at all is a lot cheaper to provide than what you want .. and a free market almost guarantee that demand will be filled.
It's because sandboxes dont usually comes with less amount of realistic mechanics, but with more. And these cuts aren't usually called "freedom", but restrictions/limitations.A pure semantic question here. you think that being able to attack anyone anywhere with no or almost no consequences (and yes, consequences which are put into the games with mild exceptions of AoW so far are almost nonexisting) is "realistic"?
yeah, right.
you know what, if the game will have realistic consequences (like murderer will be hunted by every npc and pc (if they decide so) in game and when cought, he will be put in jail for RL years), i will gladly play it.
I thought it would be neat if there were godlike entities in the world who would keep a tally of what players did, and gradually start interfering with the player's life through their priests. Players would never see the in game entities, the effects would just start adding up. Then I went off on a tangent about how the godlike entities would interact with each other, and how the players could indirectly interact with the entities and ended with a nap because in my head the game was awesome and there's nothing more relaxing than creating the best game ever in your head.
Anyway, the problem with what you're saying is that the players who want the FFA PvP thing don't generally want their own "freedom" infringed, so the jail thing probably wouldn't sell.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The freedom of not pvp at all is a lot cheaper to provide than what you want .. and a free market almost guarantee that demand will be filled.
It's because sandboxes dont usually comes with less amount of realistic mechanics, but with more. And these cuts aren't usually called "freedom", but restrictions/limitations.
A pure semantic question here.
you think that being able to attack anyone anywhere with no or almost no consequences (and yes, consequences which are put into the games with mild exceptions of AoW so far are almost nonexisting) is "realistic"?[/quote]
No. The actions should have realistic consequences, like in AoW or L2. The mmos without realistic consequences to mindless murders are either flawed or trying to simulate a pure anarchic world.
yeah, right.
you know what, if the game will have realistic consequences (like murderer will be hunted by every npc and pc (if they decide so) in game and when cought, he will be put in jail for RL years), i will gladly play it.
The punishment should be proportional to the harms caused. It's nonsense punish ingame murderers with RL penaltys if the victims dont suffer RL loses.
FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all
i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...
I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".
freedom of choice was direct quotation from the post i was quoting
do you think that your choice to attack me should trumph my choice of not pvp?
No. I am saying that mechanical reality (thing that sandboxes pursue) trumph over personal desires.
nothing about ffa pvp in pernament world is realistic - do you see a lot of killing on the RL streets? i so far in my mid lenghted life didnt see single murder.
does it also mean that:
there should not be any magic in sanbox.
anytime you die, it should be pernament.
even a wolf (not to mention bear etc) should kill you in more then 50% of cases.
growing plants should take months.
it should take you 10+ minutes to put on plate armor and you should be extremely tired after only tens of minutes of walking in it.
you should take crap at least twice a day and sleep for cca 8 hrs a day.
etc etc etc.
please stop telling me what is "realistic" in games.
The title should read we don't need anymore badly implemented PVP focused MMO's right now. We sure as hell need a well thought out implementation of it in a sandbox game aside from EVE. If you don't want to play as a ship you have no options at all for that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
you know what, if the game will have realistic consequences (like murderer will be hunted by every npc and pc (if they decide so) in game and when cought, he will be put in jail for RL years), i will gladly play it.
The punishment should be proportional to the harms caused. It's nonsense punish ingame murderers with RL penaltys if the victims dont suffer RL loses.
it is no more RL penalty then it is RL lose. RL penalty would be if i wanted you (the player) to go to RL jail for in-game murder. nothing inproportional about in-game jailtime.
FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all
i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...
I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".
freedom of choice was direct quotation from the post i was quoting
do you think that your choice to attack me should trumph my choice of not pvp?
No. I am saying that mechanical reality (thing that sandboxes pursue) trumph over personal desires.
nothing about ffa pvp in pernament world is realistic - do you see a lot of killing in the RL streets? i so far in my mid lengthed life didnt see single murder.
does it also mean that:
there should not be any magic in sanbox.
anytime you die, it should be pernament.
even a wolf (not to mention bear etc) should kill you in more then 50% of cases.
growing plants should take months.
it should take you 10+ minutes to wear plate armor and you should be extremely tired after only tens of minutes of walking in it.
you should take crap at least twice a day and sleep for cca 8 hrs a day.
etc etc etc.
please stop telling me what is "realistic" in games.
These things (with exception of magic, that are a addition and not a cut) are the the best way to simulate mechanical realism in sandboxes, inside its time/space scale (e.g: 1 ingame hour = 5 RL minutes). Some things can be only consequences of you being in a different world with different creatures.
you know what, if the game will have realistic consequences (like murderer will be hunted by every npc and pc (if they decide so) in game and when cought, he will be put in jail for RL years), i will gladly play it.
The punishment should be proportional to the harms caused. It's nonsense punish ingame murderers with RL penaltys if the victims dont suffer RL loses.
it is no more RL penalty then it is RL lose. RL penalty would be if i wanted you (the player) to go to RL jail for in-game murder. nothing inproportional about in-game jailtime.
You didn't understand. I said it's nonsense give a character 1 month of suspension (RL time) if his victim lost only 10 minutes of RL time in exp, itens, money, cooldown and so on.
No. I am saying that mechanical reality (thing that sandboxes pursue) trumph over personal desires.
Sandbox is about build not simulating reality. PvP has nothing to do with a game being a sandbox or not. Many use it as "content" but it doesn't define it as such.
The choice to pvp in a sandbox game is just that, something the devs either let you do or they don't. Any argument that a game has to have ffa pvp or non-consesual pvp is just someone trying to get their own way. And quite frankly " if it isn't my way it's not a real sandbox" is a really lame argument to try and make.
you know what, if the game will have realistic consequences (like murderer will be hunted by every npc and pc (if they decide so) in game and when cought, he will be put in jail for RL years), i will gladly play it.
The punishment should be proportional to the harms caused. It's nonsense punish ingame murderers with RL penaltys if the victims dont suffer RL loses.
it is no more RL penalty then it is RL lose. RL penalty would be if i wanted you (the player) to go to RL jail for in-game murder. nothing inproportional about in-game jailtime.
You didn't understand. I said it's nonsense give a character 1 month of suspension (RL time) if his victim lost only 10 minutes of RL time in exp, itens, money, cooldown and so on.
do you know what repeated offense is?
(not to mention that even in rl the punishment is often more harsh then the crime, to "scare off" people thinking about commiting one (e.g. in US stealing 5k+ can get you up to 10 years in prison, without repeated offense, in countries with sharia law they would cut your hand .... etc)
If EQ Next goes with PvP, Count me OUT.. I will not buy the game nor play it.. I refuse to pay to play games that devote any time to PvP.. Why? Pretty simple.. It's impossible to have balanced PvP while still creating a fun and diverse character classes.. Take EQ for example.. It's impossible for a warrior to win a fight against a Necro, Druid or other kiting type classes.. Imagine an Enchanter that mez's your character for 20 minutes? I think you get the idea..
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on scripted dungeons you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old the group finder vomits up) zerg over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game. To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route? Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused. Do we seriously need another one like that? It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE) population? Makes no sense........
Ultimately the players will decide whether more pvp focused games are successful.
Personally I'm not looking at EQN after trying EQ2, doesn't mean either of those games are bad in any way, just that I didn't like EQ2.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Originally posted by Adalwulff Funny, I was just reading that thread.
We desperately need more PvP games, but they need to be more like DF:UW or EVE.
Doesn't mean we cant have good PvE, but there is no substitute for playing against another person. Playing against the computer in Raids or other grind fests, gets old real fast.
In a theme park, ya, that gets old quick. But we're talking about sandboxes. Sandboxes can encompass a lot of other game play that has nothing to do with PvP, and nothing to do with theme park staples, and is rewarding in itself.
The PvP thing has been tried and done to death. Maybe it's time for a PvE focused sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft than Call of Duty.
It will do well as long as it isn't pitched to the MMO gamer. For example, to let everyone create without others interfering or destroying, you'd pretty much have to have a worldspace that goes on forever or have instancing. The former would need some form of fast travel and the latter is separate from the main worldspace. Whatever solution is used, it will be rallied against by the heavily invested MMO gamer crowd - the ones that post on forums and other MMO gaming channels. IT'S NOT A REAL MMO MY IMMERSION IS BROKEN RAWR
Free Realms is a PvE MMO sandbox, but probably not to 'real' MMO gamers who want to be able to crap all over the game world... but don't want to deal with other people's crap.
Actually, there are lots of PvE focused sandbox style games, but they are targeted toward casuals, kids and Moms.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
1- Devs mindset => The devs with more inclination towards sandbox mmos have a same way of think things that makes they pursuit the maximum of "mechanical realism" in their works. So pvp with artificial and unjustified "invulnerabilities" passes little through their heads. Their focus to prevent abuse is more in creating punishments (trying to imitate the reality) instead of that way.
That reason above can explain the sensation of some PVEers that some pvp focused mmos have more "cool things" (aside pvp, ofc) than your pve focused mmos they are playing. As a example i will mention the AI of the npcs (mobs) in DFUW: It's almost a consensus that DF has the best mob AI of all mmos. And that is paradoxical, since DF is a pvp focused mmo and "shouldn't" invest so much in mobs. But that investment is only a indirect consequence of the devs mindset of trying to make realistic features. I think if the DF developers had the Archeage or even the EVE's budget, they would make a awesome sandbox.
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on scripted dungeons you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old the group finder vomits up) zerg over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on ganking for you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old that wants to feel leet) camping over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on scripted dungeons you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old the group finder vomits up) zerg over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on ganking for you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old that wants to feel leet) camping over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and yours is not worth less than mine. Personally I would prefer the ganking, all that raid boredom, carrot on a stick etc makes my eyes glaze over.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and yours is not worth less than mine. Personally I would prefer the ganking, all that raid boredom, carrot on a stick etc makes my eyes glaze over.
Just as i would prefer no ganking, and instant dungeon.
Let's vote with our wallets and time, and let the market decide.
Come on... Free Realms main problem is that it's aimed for kids. It has nothing to do with the game being PvE oriented.
You said it. We need a PvE with optional (on player choice) PvP sandbox game that is not focused towards kids and moms. Something like what post-Trammel UO was, but with modern technology, and with a major developer doing it and not some utterly bad amateur developer with an ego bigger than his talent (Darkfall, Mortal...).
Yes, the actual market lacks such a game. Not everyone wants to play a spaceship in EvE online or is able to be immersed in the really old graphics of UO. Those gamers deserve something modern they can call home.
Why is it a problem? I don't see why devs shouldn't create games for kids.
If the market lacks such a game, may be the demand is not high enough to warrant one.
we need both more pvp and pve focused sandbox mmorpgs. the only reason both pvp and pve players want more games of their type is that we are unsatisfied with all mmorps on the market.
Originally posted by WaterlilyIf they promote this game as a PVP game, it's dead out of the gate.PVE players outnumber PVP players tenfold.
Some players like both, what category do they fall into? Good job at making up statistics though.
He was being kind, its more like a thousand fold. And this isn't make believe numbers. There's no rationale human who can look at the MMO landscape and believe that PvP players outnumber PvE players. Sure there are both but the genre is the, will always be the, loved by the: PvE crowd
It's hardly official, but at least for people on this site, it breaks down like so:
PvP - 5.7% PvE - 14.8% PvP focus with a little PvE - 10.5% PvE focus with a little PvP - 34.8% Equal Parts PvE and PvP - 34.2%
And this is what is so frustrating, that pretty much every sandbox currently available, and coming down the pipeline, is targeted for that 10.5% of the mmo population. Archeage may be one, MAY BE, that actually falls more into the equal PvE and PvP, but pretty much all others PvP focus with little PvE
So the "pure" PvE people are nearly triple the numbers of the purely PvP people. The PvE focused people and the equal parts PvP/PvE peole dwarf everyone else though.
I would be interested in a new poll on this same subject.
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on scripted dungeons you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old the group finder vomits up) zerg over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on ganking for you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old that wants to feel leet) camping over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
Yeah, that doesn't really work with the pvp perspective just plugged in. Nice try.
Pvp isn't always a gank fests.
Getting ganked doesn't automatically mean you die.
Getting successfully ganked doesn't automatically mean you'll get camped.
See how fighting other players can be way more fun than your scripted dragon killing?
Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE. Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too. Want, want, want. Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox. Thank you.
Originally posted by jdlamson75 Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE. Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too. Want, want, want. Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox. Thank you.
I wonder what will be the next "cool thing" that usually has in pvp focused mmos the pve crowd will desire (and complain, asking why the devs dont do pve focused mmos with that "cool thing").
Comments
Some things aren't "choices", but reality. Sandboxes try to simulate reality.
you think that being able to attack anyone anywhere with no or almost no consequences (and yes, consequences which are put into the games with mild exceptions of AoW so far are almost nonexisting) is "realistic"?
yeah, right.
you know what, if the game will have realistic consequences (like murderer will be hunted by every npc and pc (if they decide so) in game and when cought, he will be put in jail for RL years), i will gladly play it.
I thought it would be neat if there were godlike entities in the world who would keep a tally of what players did, and gradually start interfering with the player's life through their priests. Players would never see the in game entities, the effects would just start adding up. Then I went off on a tangent about how the godlike entities would interact with each other, and how the players could indirectly interact with the entities and ended with a nap because in my head the game was awesome and there's nothing more relaxing than creating the best game ever in your head.
Anyway, the problem with what you're saying is that the players who want the FFA PvP thing don't generally want their own "freedom" infringed, so the jail thing probably wouldn't sell.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No. I am saying that mechanical reality (thing that sandboxes pursue) trumph over personal desires.
No. The actions should have realistic consequences, like in AoW or L2. The mmos without realistic consequences to mindless murders are either flawed or trying to simulate a pure anarchic world.
The punishment should be proportional to the harms caused. It's nonsense punish ingame murderers with RL penaltys if the victims dont suffer RL loses.
nothing about ffa pvp in pernament world is realistic - do you see a lot of killing on the RL streets? i so far in my mid lenghted life didnt see single murder.
does it also mean that:
there should not be any magic in sanbox.
anytime you die, it should be pernament.
even a wolf (not to mention bear etc) should kill you in more then 50% of cases.
growing plants should take months.
it should take you 10+ minutes to put on plate armor and you should be extremely tired after only tens of minutes of walking in it.
you should take crap at least twice a day and sleep for cca 8 hrs a day.
etc etc etc.
please stop telling me what is "realistic" in games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
it is no more RL penalty then it is RL lose. RL penalty would be if i wanted you (the player) to go to RL jail for in-game murder. nothing inproportional about in-game jailtime.
These things (with exception of magic, that are a addition and not a cut) are the the best way to simulate mechanical realism in sandboxes, inside its time/space scale (e.g: 1 ingame hour = 5 RL minutes). Some things can be only consequences of you being in a different world with different creatures.
You didn't understand. I said it's nonsense give a character 1 month of suspension (RL time) if his victim lost only 10 minutes of RL time in exp, itens, money, cooldown and so on.
Sandbox is about build not simulating reality. PvP has nothing to do with a game being a sandbox or not. Many use it as "content" but it doesn't define it as such.
The choice to pvp in a sandbox game is just that, something the devs either let you do or they don't. Any argument that a game has to have ffa pvp or non-consesual pvp is just someone trying to get their own way. And quite frankly " if it isn't my way it's not a real sandbox" is a really lame argument to try and make.
do you know what repeated offense is?
(not to mention that even in rl the punishment is often more harsh then the crime, to "scare off" people thinking about commiting one (e.g. in US stealing 5k+ can get you up to 10 years in prison, without repeated offense, in countries with sharia law they would cut your hand .... etc)
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on scripted dungeons you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old the group finder vomits up) zerg over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
Ultimately the players will decide whether more pvp focused games are successful.
Personally I'm not looking at EQN after trying EQ2, doesn't mean either of those games are bad in any way, just that I didn't like EQ2.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
It will do well as long as it isn't pitched to the MMO gamer. For example, to let everyone create without others interfering or destroying, you'd pretty much have to have a worldspace that goes on forever or have instancing. The former would need some form of fast travel and the latter is separate from the main worldspace. Whatever solution is used, it will be rallied against by the heavily invested MMO gamer crowd - the ones that post on forums and other MMO gaming channels. IT'S NOT A REAL MMO MY IMMERSION IS BROKEN RAWR
Free Realms is a PvE MMO sandbox, but probably not to 'real' MMO gamers who want to be able to crap all over the game world... but don't want to deal with other people's crap.
Actually, there are lots of PvE focused sandbox style games, but they are targeted toward casuals, kids and Moms.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That reason above can explain the sensation of some PVEers that some pvp focused mmos have more "cool things" (aside pvp, ofc) than your pve focused mmos they are playing. As a example i will mention the AI of the npcs (mobs) in DFUW: It's almost a consensus that DF has the best mob AI of all mmos. And that is paradoxical, since DF is a pvp focused mmo and "shouldn't" invest so much in mobs. But that investment is only a indirect consequence of the devs mindset of trying to make realistic features. I think if the DF developers had the Archeage or even the EVE's budget, they would make a awesome sandbox.
The ABSOLUTE LAST thing the mmo market needs is another mmo focused on ganking for you and your friends (or whatever asshat seventeen year old that wants to feel leet) camping over and over until you either die of boredom, die of frustration over morons, or get the carrot you've been chasing. Then it's on to the next carrot! Why? To justify losing your soul chasing the last one.
NO THANK YOU
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and yours is not worth less than mine. Personally I would prefer the ganking, all that raid boredom, carrot on a stick etc makes my eyes glaze over.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Just as i would prefer no ganking, and instant dungeon.
Let's vote with our wallets and time, and let the market decide.
Why is it a problem? I don't see why devs shouldn't create games for kids.
If the market lacks such a game, may be the demand is not high enough to warrant one.
Yeah, that doesn't really work with the pvp perspective just plugged in. Nice try.
Pvp isn't always a gank fests.
Getting ganked doesn't automatically mean you die.
Getting successfully ganked doesn't automatically mean you'll get camped.
See how fighting other players can be way more fun than your scripted dragon killing?
I wonder what will be the next "cool thing" that usually has in pvp focused mmos the pve crowd will desire (and complain, asking why the devs dont do pve focused mmos with that "cool thing").