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PVP MMO are flawed.

CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

Discuss.

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Comments

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

    If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

    The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

    Discuss.

    The problem is that most developers don't have the balls to reign in PvP without killing PvP.   They don't design it in mind. 

     

    Random PvP can not be an easy or most profitable lifestyle.  

  • terroniterroni Ya, INPosts: 935Member
    Most games in general have winners and losers. The trick is to make playing the game enjoyable.

    Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.

  • BrucyBonusBrucyBonus londonPosts: 220Member
    It is flawed because it allows another player to directly dictate how you play the game.  Most players want to choose how and when they partake in activities.  
  • VaporsVapors Fr.Posts: 407Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

    If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

    The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

    Discuss.

    thats sadly true, pvp servers nowadays are like for a completly niche group of players... Even the pvp is fun in some games, players go often the way to avoid it, the only game I've seen which was diffrent is warhammer online. But pvp was a basic thing there and there was no chance to avoid it luckily.

    Since developers know that pvp is currently just a niche they will always focus 90% on PVE...

  • Quazal.AQuazal.A PrestonPosts: 498Member Uncommon

    Whilst i do agree with your outcome your maths is wrong

     

    Just because each fight has 2 outcomes (lets assume no draw possible) Win / Lose this doesn't meant that 50% of players will be on winning side.

    you have 11 players lets say they all fight 1, then the outcome could quite easily be each player wins 5 and loses 5 fights (11 players = 10 fights each)

    so in that instance every player is either winner or loser (or no player wins or loses overall)

     

    Just because outcome of each fight is 50/50 doesn't mean that 50% of the population will be winners, but you will get a small % of players at top of pool of winners and a high % of players at bottom end of the % winners.

    most players will probably end up in the 50/50 (+/- 2.5%) win ratio if they fight say 1000+ fights

    This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
    Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member

    I never minded losing in PvP.

    It doesn't hurt, I promise.

  • Marcus-Marcus- Posts: 970Member Uncommon

    I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

     

    /shrug

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

    If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

    The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

    Discuss.

    1, aren't you assuming that the same people will always win and always lose? Isn't more the truth that most people will both win and lose?

    2, so what if there are winners and losers? You don't want to lose? play well. You want to keep winning? Learn to adapt, change and continually play well.

    3, you assume that people playing on a pvp server or in a pvp game are "not ok" with pvp or losing.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

     

    /shrug

    that might be true but remember that there are people who don't care about "excitement" or "adrenaline rushes" of pvp and pve for more storied reasons.

    It's not about the same thing.

    So your excitement about person vs person combat is great but does not transfer to people who are not looking for the same type of experience.

  • Marcus-Marcus- Posts: 970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

     

    /shrug

    that might be true but remember that there are people who don't care about "excitement" or "adrenaline rushes" of pvp and pve for more storied reasons.

    It's not about the same thing.

    So your excitement about person vs person combat is great but does not transfer to people who are not looking for the same type of experience.

    I didn't assume it did.

     

    My point was, just because people lose in a pvp fight, doesn't mean they will automatically quite. Do I win more than I lose? No idea, and to be honest I don't care, its still fun (for me). The OP seems to think that just because people lose, they will quit.

     

    For me, there not a lot of fun in winning, if I never lose.

     

    It gets dull.

     

    /shrug

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Marcus-
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

     

    /shrug

    that might be true but remember that there are people who don't care about "excitement" or "adrenaline rushes" of pvp and pve for more storied reasons.

    It's not about the same thing.

    So your excitement about person vs person combat is great but does not transfer to people who are not looking for the same type of experience.

    I didn't assume it did.

     

    My point was, just because people lose in a pvp fight, doesn't mean they will automatically quite. Do I win more than I lose? No idea, and to be honest I don't care, its still fun (for me). The OP seems to think that just because people lose, they will quit.

     

    For me, there not a lot of fun in winning, if I never lose.

     

    It gets dull.

     

    /shrug

    Ah I understand better, thanks for the clarification and it's the same as my stance. good point. image

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    The smart developers....THE SMART ONES

    -have pve only areas

    --have faction vs faction fighting areas(not ffa pvp, but where you are part of a group/faction and fight together with others ).This fighting area is persistent with control lost only when another faction wrests it from the hands of another faction.

    DAOC is the best example of superior faction conflict game.GW2 is an example of what a superficial understanding of DAOC's systems will get you.

    11 years and still going as a subscription game despite incredibly poor management decisions

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

    image
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

    I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

    Apparently no one felt the need to explain this to non-EVE players.

    Since EVE is always heralded as the epitome of a PVP MMO, it's pretty important to mention that the majority of the playerbase doesn't PVP in EVE.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

    I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

    Wushu has more players than WoW, and yes a lot of people do not participate in PvP, even though it's a FFA pvp  world.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,747Member Uncommon

    OP is wrong on several levels:

    • World PVP is casual.  There are more than 50% winners, because the game doesn't enforce an even 50/50 team split.
    • Because it's casual, it's relatively popular (though surprisingly a lot less popular than the more hardcore, truly competitive PVP games out there like RTS, FPS, and MOBAs.)  If enough people want a game to justify the cost to make it, it's not flawed.
    • PVP games fundamentally sustain more cheaply than PVE games.  This is because PVE relies on a developer to create new content, while PVP is automatically player-generated content.
    • PVP MMOs can be focused on skillful competition (Planetside 1), and it works great!  I'd love to see more games like PS1.  (Tragically PS2 involves an awful lot of vertical progression, which prevented me from sticking with it.)
    I personally have no interest in the type of casual PVP found in MMOs (I only play PVP games focused on player skill,) but to call them "flawed" or imply they shouldn't ever be made is just flat-out wrong.  They're a valid niche product.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

    I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

    Apparently no one felt the need to explain this to non-EVE players.

    Since EVE is always heralded as the epitome of a PVP MMO, it's pretty important to mention that the majority of the playerbase doesn't PVP in EVE.

     

    This information you have heard and are now repeating is most likely untrue.  At least by the definition of "participate" you would probably want to use to support your original theory.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

    If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

    The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

    Discuss.

    Yeap. And therefore the most popular online games of all time are CS, BF Series, LoL, DoTA and so on. You are absolutly right. They must be all stupid and totally brain dead. 50 millions + players have to be wrong.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

    I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

    Apparently no one felt the need to explain this to non-EVE players.

    Since EVE is always heralded as the epitome of a PVP MMO, it's pretty important to mention that the majority of the playerbase doesn't PVP in EVE.

    That's because you people define PVP as me vs you in a sword vs sword type of way whereas in EVE that is only part of the PVP (market manipulations, spy games, morale warfare, exploration races, organized races, etc). These are all still PVP because it is still one player (or group of players) vs another.

    image
  • StrangerousStrangerous ny, ILPosts: 165Member

    The problem of pvp is often within the mindset of the players.  Ive played FFA full loot pvp games for years.  It adds something to the mundane tasks in the game...a certain feeling of risk, paranoida, excitement.

    Problem is, imo, is the mindset that pvp has to be super structured, where you basically have to ask permission to engage in pvp.  then it has to be super fair.  to me that's boring, that's pvp in its most boring form.  top it off with no risk involved and you've basically made pvp into some glorified form of pve.

    I get people just don't want to be bothered with pvp.  that's fine.  ive played a lot of pve only games and in those I was only interested in pve.  its fun for a while but its missing something that is filled with risk and an unsafe world.

     

    Basically, I think there are a couple full loot ffa "unfair" pvp games out there that a LOT of pve players would enjoy if they could only get over their fear of losing pixles or losing in pvp.  Hell full loot pvp games have the BEST economy and crafting since gear is constantly in need.

     

    To me posts like this make me sad.  Its just validation that mmorpgs are continuing their path of becoming some form of standardized uber casual "safe zone" for people to just stand around and kill mobs awaiting their death.

    Its sad how boring these games have gotten. PVE games were great when then were complex and unforgiving...now they are built for dummies, no risk, no difficulty...snooze fests.  The reason you see so many people complaining about the current path mmorpgs are on...yet no one wants to step off that familiar and beaten path...and by no means will any company risk money to do the same.

     

    So yeah, pvp mmorpgs are flawed if all your looking for is a safe and easy movie you can play and predict the outcome of every encounter.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

     

    This information you have heard and are now repeating is most likely untrue.  

    Most likely? I heard most players in EVE play in sections where they can avoid PVP.

    For a game that's heralded as the example of FFA PVP, that's pretty funny when I heard it.

    You'd think that a game that is mentioned in almost every PVP debate, would have players participating in PVP non-stop, instead most of them go out of their way to avoid it, scared of losing their ship.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    I am unsure about the premise, as I am not a PvP player.

    However, the flaw I see is that PvP hit it big in FPS games like Doom and Wolfenstein. There, equipment was everything. Each player had a chance to do everything in the game, if they got to the equipment first. This made everyone equal, or a chance to be equal. Need to heal? Better get to that heal kit first. Pistol not doing the trick, look for that rocket launcher for some fun! All players have the chance to get there first.

    MMOs take these abilities granted by equipment and give them to characters specifically, denying the same access to other players not of the same class/race/whatever. Nobody is equal.

    MMORPGs is all about differences. PvP is all about sameness, or the chance to be the same as everyone else. Well, not really. PvP seems to be about advantages over other players, which are then, in turn, complained about as unfair by those without the advantage.

    If you give a player a "special ability" (like CC, for instance), you have to balance that with giving every other character the ability to counter it, meaning that the CC means very little, and everyone else has the same specific ability counter.

    While it is great fun to gain control of another creature in PvE and have it fight for you, doing so in PvP will never work. It is definitely fun to encase that Boss Mob in ice to let the other party members hack away, in PvP the players will not be very happy.

    tl/dr: MMORPGs are about differences. PvP is about sameness.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member
    Originally posted by w407309

    most players will probably end up in the 50/50 (+/- 2.5%) win ratio if they fight say 1000+ fights

    Say again?

    50/50 +/- 2.5%?

    No way. In my experience, PvPers need to win 70% of their duels or more to enjoy PvP.

    If they win less, the game is "unbalanced".

    If they win less than 50%, the game is just bad -it isn't skill oriented at all.

     

    OP is right, population goes down because people winning 70% of their fights start losing as soon as the bad players leave. It's an ugly downwards spiral.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Originally posted by Dihoru
    The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.
    I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.Apparently no one felt the need to explain this to non-EVE players.Since EVE is always heralded as the epitome of a PVP MMO, it's pretty important to mention that the majority of the playerbase doesn't PVP in EVE.
    That's because you people define PVP as me vs you in a sword vs sword type of way whereas in EVE that is only part of the PVP (market manipulations, spy games, morale warfare, exploration races, organized races, etc). These are all still PVP because it is still one player (or group of players) vs another.
    Really? So when I ran Taskforce Races in City of Heroes with friends, I was actually partaking in PvP? Cool! I am now a PvP fan :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

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