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INSIDE ESO DUNGEONS

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  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Kuanshu
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Kuanshu

    Advantages and Disadvantages of contested PvE dungeons:

    1) Community enhancing

    2) More immersive contesting PvE alongside and with others from your alliance

    3) Possible trainwrecks

    4) Kill stealers & Ninja Looters & chest stwealers If this doesn't exist in the noninstanced overworled, it wouldn't exist in the dungeon. Why not just instance everything if this is a real problem? (which it isn't) Kill stealing & Ninja Looters exist much moreso in dungeons simply based on the design of the dungeon and how its close quarters for everyone involved. Chest stealing will exist more in ESO as lockpicking and chests are central to the Elder Scrolls legacy. None of the MMOs I've played have suffered from more killstealing in dungeons than outside dungeons. If someone is harassing you, quickly reporting them to a GM means they get banned. Simple. This happens wiht or without instances. You've Played (There it is folks). I've been playing and beta testing MMORPGs for over 15 years. Reporting them and having them do something, especially if the griefer is smart and there are more griefers these days then there were in the past....try again.

    5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons. MOBs need to repop after they are killed and you cannot simply have insta spawns as that isn't even remotely sensible or feasible. Yes there are timers for certain group encounters and raids, otherwise it would be camped 24/7 and good luck gettin a turn. If a developer is moronic enough to design a game where some mobs are so much more important than others that they get camped, then they're probably too inept to design a good MMO anyway, instanced or not. No mobs in DAoC dropped stuff that was so radically superior that it resulted in that mob getting camped. DAoC was crazy as all get out on the server I played Albion side and like I said if I wasn't ahead of everyone in my realm level wise I would have dealt with more then I wanted to and I already wanted to PK plenty of players in my own realm. Oh and the tree camp area that one poster mentioned; I started that on my server and it was crazy SOLOing them as I did (which is why I got to 50 first)....then it got crazy once everyone else showed up.

    6) Waiting for campers to move to another camp that have been camping the same MOBs for too long. This is a minor issue at best. If a dungeon is well balanced, then moving to another spawn would NOT be a problem. Or, if there is a camp exp bonus, it encourages people to move around. Not if certain MOBs have better drops or if the group is waiting for members to level up, skill up and they simply don't want to move...watcha gonna do then? GL with the camp exp bonus../ Either design the game so that certain mobs don't have vastly better loot (a very easy things to do, most good MMOs do this) or just deal with the VERY MINOR ISSUE OF MOVING TO A DIFFERENT SPAWN. And yes, camp bonuses did greatly encourage people to move around. Your example of waiting for other members to level up makes no sense at all. Here is another obvious example revealing your lack of overall MMORPG experience and oh yes lets just put in camp bonuses...what else should the developers do to make the game better for you?

    7) Your late for work/school/dates/events or you miss out entirely. This has nothing to do with instances. Notice this is under contested content as you have to wait here and wait there as everything is contested and welcome to your new timesink since you prefer contested content over instances. I never had to wait in line for anything ever in a noninstanced MMO. Your example is void. People sharing a zone != having to wait for everything. It simply means you're in the same zone. BS as it pertains to questing, certain drops, and good luck if this happens to be in dungeons on a heavily populated server which this game will be if it is as good as many hope it will be....megaserver!

    8) Takes alot more bandwidth/data useage then instances It absolutely does not. Games in 1997 weren't instanced, and that was on dial up. Ya and the graphics sucked, so did gameplay wrong, so did the engine again, wrong DAoC can handle 500 people fighting on screen, most modern MMOs cannot, hell most of the game was one huge timesink and we put up with it cuz we didn't know any better...not relavent at all these days we do and when your dealing with a ton more MMORPG players then back in the day not on the same server you're not. And most MMOs have less subs than pre WoW MMOs did at their peaks your dealing with people wanting high end graphics people wanted high end graphics back then too , high end gameplay mechanics the same mechanics that existed back then, are what people play now, PvP same back then, massive worlds worlds have gotten way smaller, dynamic AI AI has gotten worse, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay are on the cutting edge and yes it does take more data usage as its so much easier to place instancing on seperate servers for optimization and giving instancing much more depth and extra features you couldn't do in a totally seamless world, especially with how this is an Elder Scrolls game. This entire point I had to stop tearing apart because it is your weakest point overall. Games back then did much more with MUCH less horsepower. Nowadays engines are better and game worlds are smaller and with less features. Instancing has absolutely ZERO effect on this. Example, Darkfall, has a massive world, real time FPS combat, no loading, AND NO INSTANCES, and it runs fine. It was also made by 15 people on a 1 million dollar budget in Greece. So, consider your argument dead. Wow your so full of yourself...its more then obvious...DAoC couldn't run with 500 on the same screen without issues unless they have done something since I played which was at launch and shortly thereafter. You wasted all that and didn't even hardly refute anything I stated in length here. You don't speak for others you can only speak for yourself as I am only speaking from my experiences which are much more considerable in comparison to your (Oh I played a few MMORPGs so I am an expert) examples. Darkfall is a very poor example of a good successful MMORPG! This game is going to make it look like a complete and utter joke in comparison as it should offer everything Elder Scrolls Fans and MMORPG Fans have been wanting for many years.

    9) You don't have to PUG it.

    10) MOB types, loot tables, and other dynamics aren't as varied as instances. That's 100% wrong. How do you figure this? If any argument can be made, its that things are MORE varied because the dungeons are bigger. Dungeons are not bigger; in fact if anything they would have to be smaller as there are limitations and yes it has to do with technological barriers and yes they do exist; especially when ya'll want a totally seamless world with high end graphics, high end gameplay mechanics, PvP, massive worlds, dynamic AI, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay on the cutting edge....hrmm seems like I said this before. If MMORPGs could have massive dungeons on on board graphics cards and a dial up modem, modern games could easily do the same. Vanguard, Darkfall, and several other MMOs prove this to be a fact. Uninstanced dungeons, by their most basic design, are much larger than instanced dungeons. Because noninstanced dungeons are much bigger, they have more loot types, mob types, and other dynamics. Uninstanced Dungeons are not much larger then instanced dungeons as that is utterly absurd and yet you even go so far as to say its a fact, LOL. Vanguard and Darkfall are very poor examples as they weren't successful in any real sense. You have no idea whatsoever as to the technolgical barriers it takes to make a successful MMORPG that offers what players nowadays want collectively and hope it runs smoothly without alot of issues.

     

    Advantages and Disadvantages of instanced PvE dungeons:

    1) You can have a preset dungeon group or you can queue for a short period for the instance and bam your in Or, if its not instanced, you can just walk through the door and bam, you're in. Your in the entrance then you look around and see everything is camped And then you go "hey, can I join you guys?" "sure!" 4 man groups trumps you...again...

    2) You get to meet and group with alot more interesting, wonderful, unique people from all over the world. Not with instancing. That hides people from you. In public dungeons you have a ton of people inside you get to interact with. Instancing surprises you as the queue picker can draw from all the servers on a particular platform which offers more variation overall considering all the servers on a particular platform are collectively comprised of many more variations of said gamers.

    3) You don't have to wait for MOB resets or timers. You don't in public dungeons either. MOBs don't insta respawn in public dungeons. MOBs should remain dead much longer in an instanced dungeon or shouldn't respawn entirely once the area is cleared.

    4) Frees up alot of bandwidth/date useage for other contested content like large scale PvP. Wrong.  Corrected you above.

    5) Allows designers and developers to have varied MOB types, loot, etc...for each group (even if in the same instanced dungeon) Wrong. Corrected you again above.

    6) You can kick the asshat (s) that is/are in your group and the queue finds a replacement without waiting. You can do this in public dungeons as well. GL wit dat ad you got to fill their spot  And all you do is ask one of the many people in the dungeon "wanna join?" because that's what you do in social games, which is what MMOs are supposed to be. Your snide remarks don't give you any more credit btw...the queue system finds a replacement and places them in your group. You have to hope someone is standing around otherwise you are waiting and if they cannot heal or tank effectively enough...well then guess what...your waiting even longer.

    7) You don't have to miss out or be late for anything so you can a much more productive, enjoyable real life ...what Its called timesinks...public dungeons cater to timesinks.

    8) Immersion enhancing as you can have someone stealth/scout ahead and its just you and your group using strategy and tactics without any interference or disruption from any other groups That is the opposite of immersive. In a world full of adventurers, why would going underground magically make them all vanish? Its called Stealth, oh and its a Nightblade thing...oh wait you probably have no idea what I am talking about...heck why don't you help them design  your game at this rate...moron.

    9) Your not dealing with kill stealers, ninja looters, chest stealers, etc... Explained above. Corrected above.

    10) Lets face it PUGs rawk! Right, and its easier to have them in public dungeons. This was me being funny...that was you being anal.

     

    Everquest was a complete clusterfuck Yes, and all those issues were solved in subsequent MMOs WITHOUT instancing. Nice erasing the rest of this post...editing caters the editor.

     

    Any other MMORPGs you care to mention that had contested PvE content instead of instances you can bring to the table? Vanguard, Darkfall, the majority of non WoW clone MMORPGs Very poor examples as I stated above and you speak so clearly of your lack of experience playing successful well implimented MMORPGs.

     

    I think you should just leave this thread. I think you should make me leave the thread...oh better yet lets hope I cross your path in Cryodiil on the opposing alliance so I can show you how much of a tool you really are...punk.

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    You have thoroughly proven you have no idea what you're talking about. You need to drop the "instancing because technical limitations!" bs. Darkfall destroys that argument.

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    You have thoroughly proven you have no idea what you're talking about. You need to drop the "instancing because technical limitations!" bs. Darkfall destroys that argument.

    You actually think a simple statement is going to disprove anyhing as there is no proof until the fat lady sings and the game releases.

    Ask any development team as to why they instance alot of content and you will learn more about the technological side of things.

    I am a computer tech and I have built my own rigs for at least 15 years and I also do networking and troubleshooting of anything concerning PCs.

    I played single player RPGs until my first MMO experience in 1997 and my first 3D MMORPG (Everquest) convinced me that no single player RPG (with the exception of the Elder Scrolls) was as exciting, interesting nor as involved as any MMO. I have also beta tested many MMORPGs since 1999 and have played alongside and against some of the most notorious old school powergaming pve and pvp guilds in every aspect of MMORPGs. 

    Personally followed the development of many MMORPGs and I know without a doubt the final say on many facets of gameplay and game mechanics is determined by the technological side of the development team.

    Darkfall doesn't destroy anything as it took forever for the game to be released and was often rumored as vaporware for years until it came out and had many ruined aspect of gameplay and only certain niche PvP players cater to it simply based on poorly executed aspects of PvP that caters to this niche.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Kuanshu
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    You have thoroughly proven you have no idea what you're talking about. You need to drop the "instancing because technical limitations!" bs. Darkfall destroys that argument.

    Darkfall doesn't destroy anything as it took forever for the game to be released and was often rumored as vaporware for years until it came out and had many ruined aspect of gameplay and only certain niche PvP players cater to it simply based on poorly executed aspects of PvP that caters to this niche.

    You aren't special. I too have been working with computers and playing MMOs for 15+ years. Yet you seem not to be able to grasp that if MMOs in 1999 could pull off worlds without instancing, there's no reason modern MMOs can't do the same. Tech has only gotten better.

    As for Darkfall, it taking a long time to come out is not, in any way at all, related to the fact that the features of the game destroy your argument. Your sentence barely makes sense as you phrased it, I start to wonder if english is a third language to you.

    Fact is, Darkfall has a bigger world than most MMOs, no loading screens, no instancing, and yet has real time combat, which most MMOs don't have. And it was done on a budget smaller than any AAA MMO to date.

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member

    GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL. The fact you keep bringing up Darkfall clearly reveals alot, especially considering the asinine community that goes with the game. Darkfall is a poor excuse for a MMORPG and even Darkfall: Unholy Wars had a horrible release...so hows that game doing these days, LOL.

    2 MMORPGs released in 1999

    Everquest: LOADING PLEASE WAIT...nough said

    Asheron's Call actually introduced instancing as I beta tested it and played launch day forward...try again...oh and seamless wasn't as seamless as a player shouldn't even notice a seam in gameplay yet it was more then noticeable...reminiscence of Vanguard, heh.

    Both were dial up MMORPGs and I was there in both games when an entire area/zone/server crashed which was all too common, especially when a certain amount of players where in close proximity.  Broadband was being introduced early on at this time and that didn't help much for that matter.

    Sigh...back to the subject matter

    INSIDE ESO DUNGEONS

    Sounds like they are incorporating both instanced dungeons and public dungeons so we will just have to wait and see what unfolds at this time as we are hearing alot of different things and we are so far from release...alot could change.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    The focus for this game seems to be changing from month to month. This cannot end well in the long run. A game that tries to appease everyone ends up being a very shallow experience. The original plan for this game has gone right out the window,
  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    The focus for this game seems to be changing from month to month. This cannot end well in the long run. A game that tries to appease everyone ends up being a very shallow experience. The original plan for this game has gone right out the window,

    Fact.  Game doesn't know what it is, or where it is going.  Very very bad signs this late in development.   I highly predict GW2 flop.

  • IridescentOrkIridescentOrk Ellicott City, MDPosts: 157Member
    ugh, 4 classes only?

    gameplay > graphics

  • BattlerockBattlerock Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,393Member
    Originally posted by Carnicide

    I have no idea why people would complain about the trinity class system......... ZERG-fest gw2 style is soooooo boring in pve. Works well in pvp, but I and plenty others would prefer a role.

     

    Yeah without trinity at least a trinity, the whole "role playing" goes out the window and all your left with is gw2 pve. Gw2 pve is, well I dont know what it is, but it makes me want to shoot myself.
  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Battlerock
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    I have no idea why people would complain about the trinity class system......... ZERG-fest gw2 style is soooooo boring in pve. Works well in pvp, but I and plenty others would prefer a role.

     

    Yeah without trinity at least a trinity, the whole "role playing" goes out the window and all your left with is gw2 pve. Gw2 pve is, well I dont know what it is, but it makes me want to shoot myself.

    Problem is the trinity as they described it was inconsistent.  One minute they are saying, yah you need tank, and the next they are saying everyone can take hits.  Then they say you need someone to heal, UNLESS everyone can manage their own health. 

    Everything from these people is so inconsistent and shaky.  ZOS is acting like a virgin about to have sex, afraid to make any move.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by immodium

    MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

    I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

    I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

    You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

    Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

    I think your confused. An MMO can be heavily instanced. If there's a 'Massive' amount of people 'Online' I can play/interact with it's an MMO.

    If you had a chat room capable of having 2000+ people who could enter lobby based games with multiple players, it's an MMO.

    Sorry for de-railing :)


    Sorry bud, MMO doesn't stand for massive multiplayer.

     

    It stands for massiveLY multiplayer. Meaning, you have to have upwards of hundreds of people you can actually play with at the same time. That's been the staple of the genre since the term was coined. Instanced small scale diablo like games have existed for a long time and no one calls them MMOs. Because they aren't. What makes an MMO is the persistent uninstanced world and the thousands of people in it.

    I see your point, regarding the massively. However, nothing states an MMO has to be persistent and/or a world.

    Instanced arena based comabt that lasts 2 hours with upwards of hundreds of players competing with or against is an MMO.

    You said it yourself in red.

    Except that there aren't any instanced arena combat games that have 100vs100 matches.

    The key features that differentiated MMOs from other online games were the persistent virtual world, and the thousands of people that existed inside it. When the term MMO was coined, THOSE are the features that created the genre.

    No, the key feature is the massive amount of people playing together online. Being a world or persistant is irrelevant to whether a game is an MMO or not.

    Whether a game like that has been released or not is also irrelevant as if one was, it would be an MMO.

    An MMOFPS for example.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Kuanshu

    GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL.

    AC didn't add instancing in beta. So, you couldn't counter my argument, because it destroys yours, so you just discredit the game instead... good job buddy.

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Kuanshu

    GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL.

    AC didn't add instancing in beta. So, you couldn't counter my argument, because it destroys yours, so you just discredit the game instead... good job buddy.

    Oh ya maybe you didn't play on the Darktide server in Asheron's Call as they introduced instances to the game sometime after the game was released...go figure (of course they didn't add it in beta as I was there and stated I beta tested it and played it for sometime there after....discredit this...)

    Oh and ya ask some of the old school pvpers in Darkfall if they know my forum name...I have killed many of them many times, many, many times in previous MMORPGs...maybe Darkfall 3 will be worthy of my time/energy

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Kuanshu
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Kuanshu

    GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL.

    AC didn't add instancing in beta. So, you couldn't counter my argument, because it destroys yours, so you just discredit the game instead... good job buddy.

    Oh ya maybe you didn't play on the Darktide server in Asheron's Call as they introduced instances to the game sometime after the game was released...

    Okay so first you say they put in instancing in beta, then you said "sometime after release", you're quite confused about a great many things.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon

    Just a couple of quick questions...

    Is a server not an instance? One that you're trapped in forever or until the population dries up and it merges with another instance? So if you don't like instances I guess you don't like servers...

    In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server/instance, or are most of them just part of the scenery for you and the couple of hundred other players you actually interact with on a daily basis?

    And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in?

     

    People here, especially the ones who start every post with "everyone knows that..." have all kinds of theoretical dogma and buzzwords they like to throw around as if they were unquestionable, when in fact it's just shallow and often meaningless opinionated shit. Reminds me of the worst religious zealotry.

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member

    Sigh, some people just gotta badger others on forums...good thing we have options (Block)... MMORPGs have options for this as well...

    The exception bring PvP centric MMORPGs which cater to communities of degenerates...

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Just a couple of quick questions...

    Is a server not an instance? By computer science terms, every single game, multiplayer or not, is an instance. By MMO terms, no a server is not an instance, as it is not temporary.

    In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server. Yes, because in a real MMO, all those other players impact the game world in some way.

    And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in? Not even slightly relavent.

     

    Done

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,081Member Uncommon

    DavisFlight posted (in response to 5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers

    "A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons. "

     

    What should it have?

    (This is a key issues when it comes to instancing - forget things like bandwidth, loading screens, how you communicate with 5 or 5,000 other people etc. )

    You have talked about just moving to another room in DAoC whilst the boss respawned - which is a reset of the boss btw - is this what you are suggesting? If so how frequently should the boss respawn? (Is this immersive - should boss even respawn?)

    If the boss should respawn should the mobs that you have killed to get to the boss respawn or not?

    - If yes you get to fight them again on the way out  - no immersion there.

    - If no anyone else entering the dungeon get a free walk to the boss, no immersion there.

    And from there you can go on to discuss stealing spawns etc. but the key question is boss respawns. You can randomise the locations and times of trash mobs but "bosses" or the big set piece encounters is another matter.

     

    I totally agree that badly, needlessly and inappropriately used instancing sucks and that issues like bandwidth are irrelevant. Like Iselin however I believe that instancing has a place but I am interested in how you would handle what I see as being their key advantage. Not for nothing did EverQuest get the nickname Evercamp and taking 20 minutes to get to Lynn Barfog in DAoC and finding the bosses were not up sucked.

    So what is your non-instanced solution?

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    DAoC had in game lore that explained why most monsters respawned. I find it far more immersive to have zombies come back from the dead, then for a random bit of underground dungeon to be totally empty of other players. If in your instance, a boss only dies once and drops his sword...then you leave the instance and you see 100 other players with the same sword. There's no immersion either way, but at least without instancing their are in game explanations and socialization.

    The solution is simply to have the mobs spread out and balanced well enough so that you don't run for 20 minutes and get nothing for it. If you have certain mobs that are SO MUCH BETTER than anything else, they're going to get camped. DAoC fixed those problems pretty quickly by making mobs in Stonehenge just as good as the trees and goblins. Its a matter of content vs server population, vs respawn times. It's a number that you tweak in beta testing.

    Having to fight x boss instead of y boss is not enough justification for removing the most social part of PvE in MMOs.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Just a couple of quick questions...

    Is a server not an instance? By computer science terms, every single game, multiplayer or not, is an instance. By MMO terms, no a server is not an instance, as it is not temporary.

    In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server. Yes, because in a real MMO, all those other players impact the game world in some way.

    And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in? Not even slightly relavent.

     

    Done

    Servers are temporary. as they go offline.  Often times updated, without any player interaction.  Why are trying to expand the definition of instance anyways? 

    No, he does not.  You will only interact in a meaningful way to a few dozen people in game.    Most interactions are slam, bam, thank you ma'am.

    No, it is not.

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Instancing and Non-instancing can both be immersive. 

     

    Instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're doing a quest that must be done, and you're the only one to do it- which is how so many quests are set up, lore-wise. It create a feeling heroism and being unique and central to the game's world. 

    Non-instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're just one cog in a much bigger machine- there's thousands of adventurers just like you, most of them better than you.  There's room for that, but very few, if any of the MMOs I play treat your character that way in the cutscenes/lore/quest info. 

    It really just depends on what you want to be immersed IN.     Personally,  if I'm on a quest to save a villiage from an ancient evil, and when I get there there's already some other guy in hot pink armor teabagging the monster's corpse, well, I don't find that to be very immersive, nor do I find standing around 5 minutes waiting for the monster to magically re-appear so me and Pink Armor Man can kill it again  to be very immersive. 

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    DAoC had in game lore that explained why most monsters respawned. I find it far more immersive to have zombies come back from the dead, What about Khajit? Is it immersive to have Khaijit come back from the dead? You pick the one example where it actually makes sense, ignoring the fact that in Elder Scrolls Online, there's going to  be (hopefully) hundreds of situations where it doesn't.  Unless Skyrim didn't make you sick of Draugr yet....

    then for a random bit of underground dungeon to be totally empty of other players.

    Do you want to be immersed in a video game, or a fantasy world? In a video game, there should be other players up your ass every moment of the day trying to kill monsters before you can, spamming retarded emoticons, and etc.  You seem to  be using 'immersion' to mean 'constantly remind me that I'm playing an MMORPG'. That's not how it's usually used. It's usually used to mean "Make me feel as though I'm really in the world the game describes."   In fantasy setting that's supposed to feel heroic, instancing is thus often more immersive than non-instancing. 

    If in your instance, a boss only dies once and drops his sword...then you leave the instance and you see 100 other players with the same sword. There's no immersion either way, but at least without instancing their are in game explanations and socialization.

    You talk about 'in game explanations' as if instanced games are incapable of having them.  What's easier- explaining why every monster in the game world, no matter how weak or how strong, simply gets back up 3 minutes after being killed, and ALWAYS WILL NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO,  or simply having a game where none of the items are described as one of a kind?  It's a simple thing to just avoid saying "This sword is the only one of it's kind in the whole world I swear" in your quests; after all, it's how reality works, it requires no special explanation, unlike immortal-everything. 

     

    The solution is simply to have the mobs spread out and balanced well enough so that you don't run for 20 minutes and get nothing for it. If you have certain mobs that are SO MUCH BETTER than anything else, they're going to get camped.

    Unless they are in an instance. 

     

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by s4mus
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    I have no idea why people would complain about the trinity class system......... ZERG-fest gw2 style is soooooo boring in pve. Works well in pvp, but I and plenty others would prefer a role.

    i agree, the trinity is the only system that works atm.

    GW2 dungeons are a boring mess.

    Also i like to play healer/tank those roles often have the most influence in battles.

     

    its like a company Tank(Boss) Healer(Assistant) DD's(brainless worker bees ;p)

     

    even in the sandboxiest sandbox game where you can do anything there will always be ppl that tank and ppl that heal its just the most efficient way.

    but yeah i know anyone wants to do anything... that'll work for sure....

    Yeah, unfortunately I will agree with you. Currently The trinity is still the prefered method in MMO. I think companies should turn their focus around, and start making the behaviors of the AI differently but keep the Trinity, so that its that much more interesting when you are the healer and the tank.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Uccisore

    Instancing and Non-instancing can both be immersive. 

     

    Instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're doing a quest that must be done, and you're the only one to do it- which is how so many quests are set up, lore-wise. It create a feeling heroism and being unique and central to the game's world. 

    Non-instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're just one cog in a much bigger machine- there's thousands of adventurers just like you, most of them better than you.  There's room for that, but very few, if any of the MMOs I play treat your character that way in the cutscenes/lore/quest info. 

    It really just depends on what you want to be immersed IN.     Personally,  if I'm on a quest to save a villiage from an ancient evil, and when I get there there's already some other guy in hot pink armor teabagging the monster's corpse, well, I don't find that to be very immersive, nor do I find standing around 5 minutes waiting for the monster to magically re-appear so me and Pink Armor Man can kill it again  to be very immersive. 

    To those that argues against instance, you must have forgotten the feeling of over 10 players each with Macros afk and camping the spawns. Thats what Instances fix, it stops players from camping, and the mobs are all unique to each player.

    Sure Non-instance is great and all, but then they will have to create random wondering Mobs that might never be found ever in game.

    Atleast that could be a good job for hunters in game. But still, I doubt anyone would do that.

     

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Just a couple of quick questions...

    Is a server not an instance? By computer science terms, every single game, multiplayer or not, is an instance. By MMO terms, no a server is not an instance, as it is not temporary.

    In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server. Yes, because in a real MMO, all those other players impact the game world in some way.

    And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in? Not even slightly relavent.

     

    Done

    Servers are also temporary but of longer duration--megaservers have made this pretty obvious: they create mini server-like instances that are just duplicate versions of a crowded area on the fly. Instances come in different sizes and duration. Cyrodiil in this game will be multiple instances and have long durations. Those instances, called "campaigns" will last for a long time. They will also be huge instances.

    In any MMO the population impacts the game in whichever way the game is designed to be impacted (economically, structurally, whatever) neither Instances nor their absence have anything to do with it one way or the other. The vast majority of people are strangers that you never directly interact with...background scenery.

    And just because you miss the point it doesn't make irrelevant. The point is simple: in MMO people congregate in places that have some appeal. Be it towns, dungeons or somewhere where the currently unbalance uber item du jour comes from. And the fact that good developers try to spread the load around by creating alternate equally desirable areas is not just about trying to keep the world open through good design--it's mostly about trying to limit the number of players with all their polygons and special effects to a number that can be managed by the minimum spec rigs. One way they deal with that if people continue to congregate in the one place anyway is instancing.

    Asheron's Call didn't have instancing. The way they dealt with that same crowd problem that has always existed in all MMOs--more so the ones with large scale PvP-- was to create "portal storms" that semi-randomly chose a bunch of players and kicked them away into the surrounding countryside. Instancing would have been much less annoying.

    At any rate, from now on I'll just say "no" anytime you say "yes" and the reason will be "because I say so." That seems to work for you. I'll give it a shot.

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