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Is there a negative stigma against "MMO"?

BidwoodBidwood Toronto, ONPosts: 554Member

- Elder Scrolls Online is now described as "more of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls than MMO".

 

- Similar comments were made about Destiny and The Division.

 

Any others?

 

I'm wondering if this is a marketing thing to draw in people who are turned off by the term "MMO" or if these games are legitimately somewhere in between multi-player and MMO. "Large Multiplayer Online" game? ;)

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Comments

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member

    I don't know if it is because people are turned off by something called an MMO but I'm confident assuming it's a marketing ploy of some kind nevertheless. I actually see more of the opposite though, games claiming they are MMOs for marketing reasons rather than factual reasons. Hex was the last game I saw do this successfully but it wasn't the first nor do I think it'll be the last.

     

    I'm not sure if there is a negative stigma against MMO's or not but I guess it depends who you ask. Some people are very jaded and bitter regarding the state of the genre so they might say so but on the other hand they generally have a vision or some hope of how it could be improved and are very passionate about it. Than there are people who are happy with the genre and I guess for them the answer would be different.

     

    So the best I can do other than point out that it's subjective is to give my own feelings regarding it. MMO still has positive connotations with me. I can enjoy some of them now, I have hope for them in the future but most importantly I think they have more potential than any other genre out there and as such MMO excites me still.

  • Jadedangel1Jadedangel1 Newark, NJPosts: 184Member
    I don't know either if it is a stigma or not, But with ESO people were already complaining that the devs was messing the game up and that it wasn't a true MMO so maybe they market it this way to save the game. Who knows? And Destiny wasn't being called a MMO from the get go, probably because it is solely a console game. It was the gamers who saw bits of it and said, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its an MMO".
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon

    The term has so much baggage to it in the form of expectation and preconception that most Western developers are either avoiding the term or using it only where they have to. Some more examples of where it is and isn't used:

     

    • Defiance is called a 'massive online shooter'
    • Wildstar goes nowhere near the term on their The Game page, and the term is noticeably absent from their trailer.
    • Hex calls their game an MMOTCG, but it actually works in their favor as it indicates it's more than just an online TCG for the card game crowd and indicates it's something refreshingly different for the MMO crowd.
    • The vibe I get from the CU blogs is that they know it's going to be a step beyond the typical MMO but don't want to step into sandbox baggage territory, which is why they often reinforce it is an MMORPG but it has sandbox elements. They seem to be pretty smart about not overselling it.

     

    My prediction is that over the next year you'll see the use of that term shift further and further out in the rings of discussion until it's no longer used. Those concentric rings being core gamers > MMO gamers > MMO gaming site > gaming press > other press/media. I say that because that's where it's already going. While SOE and the old guard of early devs are attached to the term, the newer studios - especially their marketing and PR teams - are going to steer clear of it.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Out of the millions of MMORPG gamers that came in from WoW, many weren't really MMORPG gamers to begin with.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Out of the millions of MMORPG gamers that came in from WoW, many weren't really MMORPG gamers to begin with.

    It's been over a decade. They're probably familiar with the term by now.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Out of the millions of MMORPG gamers that came in from WoW, many weren't really MMORPG gamers to begin with.

    It's been over a decade. They're probably familiar with the term by now.

    That's not what I meant. I am talking about crossing genres to play a game type that under other circumstances wouldn't appeal. Now the industry is trying desperately to keep players who wouldn't otherwise have come into a genre where slow and steady is the name of the game if not for a fluke.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon

    Of course there's a negative stigma.  The gameplay found in non-MMOs has consistently been higher quality on average than MMO gameplay, in part due to the enormous technical and design tax of being MMO.

    MMOs have historically had a lot of nonsense system design (staring at spellbooks, excessive travel times) which have either existed without benefit, or at least without a benefit that was worth it.

    But of course it's not all about avoiding the stigma.  Partly it's marketing, and partly it's genuine intent to create a game which is as fun as a non-MMO (like Skyrim.)  Although this renews my concerns about how fun the game's group play will be, as that's what keeps me playing an MMO.  Maybe I'll talk with my friend who's working on it to raise this concern.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • LeGrosGamerLeGrosGamer Canada, QCPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    - Elder Scrolls Online is now described as "more of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls than MMO".

     

    - Similar comments were made about Destiny and The Division.

     

    Any others?

     

    I'm wondering if this is a marketing thing to draw in people who are turned off by the term "MMO" or if these games are legitimately somewhere in between multi-player and MMO. "Large Multiplayer Online" game? ;)

    There is in fact. And with all the F2P titles released in the past 5 years, doesn't help the MMO world at all.  The future of MMO's are in the hands of indie developers that will try and create a MMO for a certain type of audience and not aiming for 50 billion$ profit a year along with 10 million active players.   2014 is the year of the Indie , with some nice titles announced for release , and I ain't talking about the flop which will be The Elder Scrolls Online.    2013 is a sad year for MMO's.  :(     

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Of course there's a negative stigma.  The gameplay found in non-MMOs has consistently been higher quality on average than MMO gameplay, in part due to the enormous technical and design tax of being MMO.

    MMOs have historically had a lot of nonsense system design (staring at spellbooks, excessive travel times) which have either existed without benefit, or at least without a benefit that was worth it.

    But of course it's not all about avoiding the stigma.  Partly it's marketing, and partly it's genuine intent to create a game which is as fun as a non-MMO (like Skyrim.)  Although this renews my concerns about how fun the game's group play will be, as that's what keeps me playing an MMO.  Maybe I'll talk with my friend who's working on it to raise this concern.

    There are also good things about MMOs that single player games cannot compete with. I don't feel like putting too much effort into writing a list of things and how they work in combination to provide an experience not found in single player games (because most of us including you know it already) so I'll just sum it up by saying the social intricacies combined with persistency and more content make MMOs capable of delivering something not found in single player games.

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABPosts: 437Member
    Massively multiplayer online role playing game.

    Uo, Eq, AC, SWG, DAOC

    Massively multiplayer online game.

    Wow, rift, eve, and the clones

    Multiplayer online

    Defiance, ESO, ect

    Guess in a way i am saying as the social immersion drops, games seem to be becoming online single player games that have other people in them, and that is kinda sad :/

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,989Member Uncommon
    The term has become too diluted to have much meaning. Ten years ago people knew what a MMORPG really involved, but now you need a half dozen qualifiers, such as CORPG, MOBA, MMOVRPG, MMOARPG etc.

    Heck, I'm not sure anyone is making traditional MMORPGs anymore.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member

    MMO usually is code word for "not fun" in my mind.

    For a lot of non mmo players, it also has the stigma of grindy gameplay attached to it. A lot of my gamer friends won't play them because of that.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by killahh
    Massively multiplayer online game.

    Wow, rift, eve, and the clones

    WOW and RIFT are as much an RPG as any videogame RPG ever made...

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    - Elder Scrolls Online is now described as "more of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls than MMO".

     

    - Similar comments were made about Destiny and The Division.

     

    Any others?

     

    I'm wondering if this is a marketing thing to draw in people who are turned off by the term "MMO" or if these games are legitimately somewhere in between multi-player and MMO. "Large Multiplayer Online" game? ;)

    Its a marketing tactic.

     

    its been confirmed that TESO isnt a MMO at all. Its a CORPG like GW1 but with a larger scale version of PvP. World is instanced like Neverwinter for PvE in which only a small percentage of the population you can ever see at the same time or play with. only chat windows have the MMO scale.

     

     

    Notice games like Guild Wars 1 also used that statement ""more of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls than MMO""

     

    Its a statement used to hype up MMO players because it mentions the term directly, while also appealing to non MMO players.

     

    its very clever. I learn to pick up on these kind of things. So dont mind me on this. Sheep-minded consumers dont really care until after the hype drops and their money is wasted.

    image

  • cribettcribett manchesterPosts: 107Member Uncommon
    With the current trash being release in this generation of MMORPG's I would say yes and rightly so .
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,758Member Uncommon

    Might I suggest they just don't make them like they used to, so gaming companies are getting wary of being compared to the large online worlds that we used to have?

    We do have different kinds of MMO games coming out, but many are calling themselves MMO's and then setting their own standards for what that means. As a term it will not die out, but there has been problems with adopting new names for new types of MMO, I think we should embrace that. what's wrong with MMOFPS? Online action RPG's seem to have the same ARPG term as their offline counter parts, sometimes they are called online ARPG MMO's, this is where it gets confusing.

    Marketing is to blame here I think, "if we put MMO in the title we will get more hits" that sort of thinking has caused a real problem. We do get these issues posted on here quite a bit which shows players are sometimes being puzzled by what companies are calling their games. But the terms have and will evolve, I think the types of games may evolve faster though!

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member
    I think the therm "mmos" is being discredited form several sides. 
     
    - People that exclusively play shooters, or sport games often see mmos a lame and boring, as games for geeky types where people speak in thees in thous, and there is not much action. 
     
    - There is a bad picture painted of mmos in the media. There are people that get addicted and there are many horror stories about players falling dead from chairs because of dehydration and babies starving to death. 
     
    - Some people only know bad F2P grinders and associate mmos with cheap games just made to grab money. Somehow these are the games that invest the most into promotion. When I see ads for mmos on the net or on tv its always for some really bad asian grinder. Its even the same on this site. 
     
    - And there are the people (where i add myself to some extent) that think that mmos are always this same old same old. If you have seen WoW, you have basically seen them all.  
     
    Over the years the mmo-genre has become narrowed on a set of stereotypical features and it is dragging along a lot of dead weight. This is the same way the point and klick adventure genre ended. If mmos are not able to break the mold soon the genre is in danger of going the same way. At least games are starting to take baby steps in the right direction.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Nowadays, yes. For two reasons.

     

    Either they have no idea what it means because virtually every game with an online component, from LoL to Age of Empires Online are being called MMOs.

     

    Or, they just picture a fantasy setting where they quest grind, aka, a WoW clone, and assume all MMOs are like that. And who can blame them? 8 years since WoW came out and only TWO AAA MMORPGs could be safely called not WoW clones.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Nowadays, yes. For two reasons.

     

    Either they have no idea what it means because virtually every game with an online component, from LoL to Age of Empires Online are being called MMOs.

     

    Or, they just picture a fantasy setting where they quest grind, aka, a WoW clone, and assume all MMOs are like that. And who can blame them? 8 years since WoW came out and only TWO AAA MMORPGs could be safely called not WoW clones.

    Which two AAA games would you consider not a WoW clone?

  • tordurbartordurbar Alexandria, VAPosts: 429Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Out of the millions of MMORPG gamers that came in from WoW, many weren't really MMORPG gamers to begin with.

    It's been over a decade. They're probably familiar with the term by now.

    That's not what I meant. I am talking about crossing genres to play a game type that under other circumstances wouldn't appeal. Now the industry is trying desperately to keep players who wouldn't otherwise have come into a genre where slow and steady is the name of the game if not for a fluke.

    WOW was a fluke - a very good one. It proved that you did not have to grind, grind, grind, et al like all the MMOs before it. WOW proved that there was a market for something other than hard core pvp and teenage boys on steroids. There was a place for care bears and women and older players.

    Pure MMOs are dying and no more are being developed - as documented by the OP and other posters. The money (investors) are all pushing the mobile platform. Any development of the traditional MMO will be from independent (mostly Kickstarter) financing. Sorry, you are not going to make a AAA MMO on a shoestring budget.

    The age of MMOs is passing. You want even more d--ming proof just look at the editors of this site. Their favorite MMOs are basically FPS with some roleplay. [I tried to find the last link but couldn't in my time frame.] This is no fault of their own - that is what the main audience is today. Look at everything from ESO to Firefall to Planetside. 

    Don't get me wrong. I am old enough to remember Avalon Hill board games. I saw the birth of paper and pencil rpgs, muds and the first mmos. Things change sometimes for the bad sometimes for the good. The only constant is change. Being a geezer I have a tendency to look back. For me the years with TBC and WOLK were the height of the MMO experience. But that is my personal opinion. The old MMOs are being replaced. Cry about it I may but it is just a part of the "circle of life".

    I am going to miss SWTOR and RIFT and WOW when they finally shut down. I just wish that the companies would do what NCsoft did with GW1 - just let it run. But, looking at my stack of 8-track tapes, I doubt that is going to happen.

  • IridescentOrkIridescentOrk Ellicott City, MDPosts: 157Member
    follow the money; it's all about single player games with multi-player features; nothing new, but now is so blatantly obvious

    gameplay > graphics

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Nowadays, yes. For two reasons.

     

    Either they have no idea what it means because virtually every game with an online component, from LoL to Age of Empires Online are being called MMOs.

     

    Or, they just picture a fantasy setting where they quest grind, aka, a WoW clone, and assume all MMOs are like that. And who can blame them? 8 years since WoW came out and only TWO AAA MMORPGs could be safely called not WoW clones.

    Which two AAA games would you consider not a WoW clone?

    Vanguard and Guild Wars 2.

  • NewfrNewfr MoscowPosts: 130Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Vanguard and Guild Wars 2.

    Vanguard is a triple A title? As far as i remember it was a pile of utter unplayable garbage upon release. And my definition of AAA title is something absolutely opposite to that.
    As for topic i can see some lobby games pretending to be MMOs (like World of Tanks) and some MMORPGs pretending they are something else. So i think it's just a PR move to tell people that this game is something different from a whole bunch of similar products and nothing more. Personally i dont care because if you try to pretend that lemon is actually an apple i still can see that it's an apple.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    My prediction is that over the next year you'll see the use of that term shift further and further out in the rings of discussion until it's no longer used. Those concentric rings being core gamers > MMO gamers > MMO gaming site > gaming press > other press/media. I say that because that's where it's already going. While SOE and the old guard of early devs are attached to the term, the newer studios - especially their marketing and PR teams - are going to steer clear of it.

    Which is good, because the baggage of expectation is enormous.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Sengi

     
    - And there are the people (where i add myself to some extent) that think that mmos are always this same old same old. If you have seen WoW, you have basically seen them all.  
     

     

    Because all the successful games that have commonality with MMOs like LoL, WoT, D3, ...... are deemed not MMOs anymore by the hardcore players.

    With such a narrow minded way to define MMO, of course, MMO is viewed as a very narrow genre that does not entertain the masses. Hence developers try to steer away from the label.

    In fact, on the opposite side, in many industry research analysis, MMO is defined much more broadly.

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