Originally posted by ozmono I picked the latter from my own experiences. When the former happens though, PVPers get very abusive. Obviously not all PVPers do but most of the "hardcore" PVP communities I've seen have been very hostile towards opposing views.
What else would you expect from a play style that is all about hostility towards other gamers. The kinds of gamers that attracts are likely to be very vocal and very hostile. It's kind of funny, but when I think of a pvper, I think of them as a typically rude New Yorker.
That did cross my mind as I wrote. I play PVP games, it's actually a huge selling point for me. I don't consider myself rude or hostile. That said I still recognize that alot are and that the playstyle can be considered a breeding ground for such behaviour.
I just look it as this. PvEr rarely play pvp games.
But pvper still play games like GW2 for their structure pvp or WvW. I'm not sure who whine more, PvEr or PvPer. I think they whine as much as each other.
PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far.
Planet Side 2
Gotta disagree with you there mate.
As far as I'm concerned, PS2 is more FPS than MMO. Yeah, I know the definitions, but I see barely any social aspect in PS2 with little more that 'Let's pwn x' or 'OMG WTF N00B' seemingly being macroed to most player's keypads, whereas an MMO is traditionally a more social game with higher interactions.
Regardless, I did use the word "almost" and the popularity of PS2 does rather enforce my point. In fact, Darkfall or Mortal Online would have been better choices.
Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion etc, but I think you missed the target here
The second option may happen a little bit in every MMO. But it is really the first one that has ruined every PvP centric MMO ever created to the point that the PvP centric MMOs are now practically extinct.
Whiny PvEers are the problem. There are dozens of PvE MMOs but people will go an whine about the PVP in EVE.
That's because EVE is the ONLY GOOD SPACE MMO in existance. STO doesn't count, as most don't consider it good.... especially the "Space" part pf STO (Space is far too small, it doesn't feel like Space at all, rather it feels like a Lobby).
So EVE attracts Players that want a good Space MMO whether they be PvP or PvE enthusiasts. Players want a good Space experience even if it means they play a PvP game they don't want to play. Someday a Dev Team will realize this and make a great Space PvE MMO and then perhaps the Players of EVE won't have to hear all the whining from the PvEers.
Back to OP topic.... I hang out in a couple of PvE MMOs, and YES I see in chat many times the PvP players wondering where the PvP fun is or wondering why the PvEers won't go into the PvP zones... all the while making the same mistake PvPers accuse us for.... PvPers should know it's stupid to make a character on a PvE server and then complain about no PvP.
Example: About 2 weeks ago in Rift I was in Silverwood Forest zone (Guardian faction)on a PVE server.... doing quests, hunting critters for hides, enjoying the game.... and along comes 2 characters (Defiant Faction) that were trying to goad some of us into attacking them.... and then they complain that we are no fun and anal...because none of us took the bait and we did not attack of course. I just laughed in their face. What idiots.
This is why I have said for YEARS that I believe that MMOs should be made either for PvP or for PvE, but not for both. Two different customer groups, two different sets of "features" for their MMO, two different mindsets.
I have nothing against PvP in a MMO, I support Devs making PvP MMOs. Just make me a PvE MMO where I can go play and I am happy. (and they do).
(Note: I used to play EVE, now I do not. I am not one of them whiny PvEers asking for more PvE in EVE. I know where I do not belong.)
DFUW is a prime example. It went from DFO, known for being a hardcore FFA PvP game to DFUW, a game where you can max out a character without ever leaving the safe zones yet people still whine that there should be PvE servers.
PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far.
No one questioned whether it can work or not. The question was which complaint scenario is more common.
My experience has been the same as Kazuhiro's:
"In terms of what I've personally seen, the first is VASTLY more common. I rarely ever see pvpers complaining about a lack of pvp in a pve game, but I see pve'ers complain night and day about pvp games having no or little pve in complete and total safety.
Which is suprising, considering how many pve games there are, and how few pvp ones there are."
It's rare you'll see someone in chat complain about a lack of PVP because almost every MMO has a PVP zone or PVP server. However, complaints about PvE safety in PVP MMOs are incessant due to either unrealistic expectations on the part of the PvE player and poor design on the part of the devs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Here is why: We as players need to be more secure. We as players need to stop demanding changes to games to cater more to our play style. Again, "Don't like it, Don't play it.". That is my mantra.
Frankly I am sick of this attitude, which I see EVERYWHERE, that everything needs to be all inclusive to everyone. Seriously. Get a grip people. Some like hot dogs, some don't. Luckily for us there are several types of hot dogs, beef, pork, turkey, I'm sure if you looked hard enough a vegan option. Plus, if that still doesn't please you have a hamburger. This is my point.
Stop the complaining and log off. Go find a different game. Go find a different hobby. Go make different friends. Be more secure and "Do what cha like.". Stop trying to change what I like.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Who cares, no matter what game there is allways someone whining.
And on MMORPG.com, we have the special extra added bonus of witnessing whining from both sides during development. Pre-alpha? Who cares! We're gonna bitch, moan, and complain like the game is our spouse! Yeah!
edit 1: I didn't vote.
edit 2: You should read the last two sentences in Denis Leary's rant voice.
PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far.
No one questioned whether it can work or not. The question was which complaint scenario is more common.
I said nothing with regards to it working or not.
I directly answered the question and provided my reasoning.
Read it again once you've woken up a bit
"PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far."
Then I didn't get the point of that statement. Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter. If anything, your statement is the reason why your answer should be the former, as people don't complain about a working system, but will complain when they feel the system is broken and should be changed to suit them, despite how near-impossible it is to achieve.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far.
No one questioned whether it can work or not. The question was which complaint scenario is more common.
I said nothing with regards to it working or not.
I directly answered the question and provided my reasoning.
Read it again once you've woken up a bit
"PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far."
Then I didn't get the point of that statement. Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter. If anything, your statement is the reason why your answer should be the former, as people don't complain about a working system, but will complain when they feel the system is broken and should be changed to suit them, despite how near-impossible it is to achieve.
Still not woken up yet?
"Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter"
Of course it isn't irrelevant. If something works, then there will be fewer complaints. That's far from being irrelevant. You even go on to confirm that it's relevant in your following sentence!
Again, I should point out to you that I made no mention of anything regarding whether it works or not. Please stop reading that into my words.
As you're arguing against something that wasn't even said, and then refusing to acknowledge, despite my affirmation, that there was no mention of 'working' and then following it up by contradicting yourself, I'm afraid I see no point in responding to you again unless you wish to discuss that I said as oppose to what I didn't, for I have no desire to derail the thread in such a manner.
It seems to me that the #1 complaint is "class balance" which typically comes from the PvP players. I could be mistaken.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far.
No one questioned whether it can work or not. The question was which complaint scenario is more common.
I said nothing with regards to it working or not.
I directly answered the question and provided my reasoning.
Read it again once you've woken up a bit
"PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far."
Then I didn't get the point of that statement. Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter. If anything, your statement is the reason why your answer should be the former, as people don't complain about a working system, but will complain when they feel the system is broken and should be changed to suit them, despite how near-impossible it is to achieve.
Still not woken up yet?
"Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter"
Of course it isn't irrelevant. If something works, then there will be fewer complaints. That's far from being irrelevant. You even go on to confirm that it's relevant in your following sentence!
Again, I should point out to you that I made no mention of anything regarding whether it works or not. Please stop reading that into my words.
As you're arguing against something that wasn't even said, and then refusing to acknowledge, despite my affirmation, that there was no mention of 'working' and then following it up by contradicting yourself, I'm afraid I see no point in responding to you again unless you wish to discuss that I said as oppose to what I didn't, for I have no desire to derail the thread in such a manner.
Enough with the awake digs. Try to be constructive.
The yellow lines are amusing.
"Of course it isn't irrelevant. If something works, then there will be fewer complaints." Never work customer support for an MMO.
Have a great morning.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
From what i saw in the mmos i played, the behavior of joining a game and asking changes to it cater better to you instead of choosing well a game or server before joining or adapting yourself to the game, is seen more in pvers than pvpers.
Why that happens?
This comes from the general lack of quality games or the lack of certain features in most games. People join certain games because theese games do have certain mechanics, that no other (good) game has though the same game might have aspects they don't like. Lets take Archage as an example. It offers same rare features for pve players that might realy attract(like the housing, farming, trading) them to the game even if they hate pvp. In addition they might believe they can live with the pvp. Once joined the game and played for a while they notice the pvp is even more dominant than they thought and get frustrated but being a part of the community they don't just leave but try to change the game into a direction they would like more. that "trying to change" is something most individuals do within their communities. Itss not confined to mmo's its part of everything within rl as well(from decorating your house to establishing/changing laws for your country).
The question who tries this more often is very depedant on individual perception. Personally i've seen more pvp'er trying to increase pvp aspects of a game than pve'er trying to reduce the pvp aspects of a pvp game. As for pve content in general its more difficult as both pve and pvp players always want more or changed pve-content.
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
My opinion: for some still unknows reason, the pvp that occurs in the open world is seen by many players as a thing "unecessary" and thus liable to remotion, while the pve isn't seen that way even by the pvpers.
That is because forced pvp and forced pve is not the same. I'll try an analogy:
You are forced to work, type of work would correspond to pve/pvp, for this example 40h a week
forced pve: You need to work 40h but you decide about at what time you start working, how long, your breaks...
forced pvp: You need to work and (within certain limits) your boss decides about your working hours
As a player you have control over the pve. You need a break? Just head to a safe spot and thats it(solo-play, group-play is of corse more restricted but your whole group could do it). With forced pvp you don't have that control unless you log out and even that has restrictions(and logging ut because you just need 5mins for some RL issue sucks).
Another point is there are far more pve players that don't want pvp than pvp players that hate pve. This fact alone creates a difference.
PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far.
Planet Side 2
I am going to need enlightening of the PvE content of Planet SIde 2.
As a PvE player I saw FFA PvP with ray guns said "not for me" and have ignored it ever since.
That's not the purpose of darwa's post darwa stated, "PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far." I'm simply telling him at least one game that fits this category. The game works perfectly fine without PvE.
I believe that was in the context of a MMORPG, whereas Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS.
I have witnessed both cases in different MMORPGs before but the former is far more prevalent than the latter in my experience.
Most people who are PvE exclusive will just avoid PvP centric games or servers or leave if they were misinformed of the gaems nature
PvPers however infest every game and demand it change to suit them.This may or may not be due to the lack of PvP centric MMO of their liking existing to date or may just be they feel every game should cater to them.
If you're going to discount all the PvP based mmos because they've not "quality" then why not do the same for PvE mmos?
As for the OP, pvpers go to a pve game and complain incessantly about . . . well . . . everything. I don't know how often PvE players willingly download and play a PvP mmo? So the people complaining about lack of PvE in a PvP MMO are probably also PvPers who happen to feel like some PvE sprinkled in.
PvPers cry about any class or ability that hurts them, they cry because they don't have rewards, they cry because they do have rewards, they cry when pvp is random and devolves into gank squads or one large guild facerolling everyone else, they cry when not enough people are playing, they cry when pvp is instanced or e-sport style, they cry when it isn't fair. PvPers just cry constantly about every aspect.
I do think MMO's need some pvp to have longevity, but it needs to be separate from PvE and left alone. Let it be unbalanced, let it be silly. PvPers ruin more games than anyone or anything else. Class homogenization? Thank you pvpers. Nerfing interesting flavorful abilities? Thank you pvpers. Nerfing fun like climbing and exploration due to exploiting things like roofs and hiding inside of rocks? Thank you pvpers. Requiring a different set of gear for pvp because "pvpers shouldn't have to pve to get the best gear"? Thank you pvpers.
An MMO should be first and foremost a world, not a pvp deathmatch. Basically what pvpers want, is a counter-strike map the size of a large MMO world with swords and spells (because they refuse to go play EVE regardless of how amazing they keep saying it is since it has space ships and not swords).
If asked, I will always say that I'm a PvEers first. But I do love pvp, but I only enjoy pvp if I'm fighting people who know that I'm about to fight them and are ready for it. Not if they're busy fighting a mob, not if they're gathering some wood, not if they're minding their own business. Not if it's 10 of my buddies just stomping some solo or small group. Not if they're lower level. I want the competition, because I want to know that I beat someone that was trying, that was ready. Otherwise my victory is hollow.
If you oblierate a 3 year old at chess, are you impressed with yourself? Do you feel satisfaction? No, it's meaningless. That's why Usain Bolt doesn't race against fat Susan from the reception desk, because winning a gold medal when she's your opponent doesn't mean anything.
Comments
That did cross my mind as I wrote. I play PVP games, it's actually a huge selling point for me. I don't consider myself rude or hostile. That said I still recognize that alot are and that the playstyle can be considered a breeding ground for such behaviour.
I vote for the second.
I just look it as this. PvEr rarely play pvp games.
But pvper still play games like GW2 for their structure pvp or WvW. I'm not sure who whine more, PvEr or PvPer. I think they whine as much as each other.
Gotta disagree with you there mate.
As far as I'm concerned, PS2 is more FPS than MMO. Yeah, I know the definitions, but I see barely any social aspect in PS2 with little more that 'Let's pwn x' or 'OMG WTF N00B' seemingly being macroed to most player's keypads, whereas an MMO is traditionally a more social game with higher interactions.
Regardless, I did use the word "almost" and the popularity of PS2 does rather enforce my point. In fact, Darkfall or Mortal Online would have been better choices.
Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion etc, but I think you missed the target here
Have you looking at the suggestion forums of any game with "enough" PvPer.
It gets utterly filled with rants about imbalances.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
That's because EVE is the ONLY GOOD SPACE MMO in existance. STO doesn't count, as most don't consider it good.... especially the "Space" part pf STO (Space is far too small, it doesn't feel like Space at all, rather it feels like a Lobby).
So EVE attracts Players that want a good Space MMO whether they be PvP or PvE enthusiasts. Players want a good Space experience even if it means they play a PvP game they don't want to play. Someday a Dev Team will realize this and make a great Space PvE MMO and then perhaps the Players of EVE won't have to hear all the whining from the PvEers.
Back to OP topic.... I hang out in a couple of PvE MMOs, and YES I see in chat many times the PvP players wondering where the PvP fun is or wondering why the PvEers won't go into the PvP zones... all the while making the same mistake PvPers accuse us for.... PvPers should know it's stupid to make a character on a PvE server and then complain about no PvP.
Example: About 2 weeks ago in Rift I was in Silverwood Forest zone (Guardian faction)on a PVE server.... doing quests, hunting critters for hides, enjoying the game.... and along comes 2 characters (Defiant Faction) that were trying to goad some of us into attacking them.... and then they complain that we are no fun and anal...because none of us took the bait and we did not attack of course. I just laughed in their face. What idiots.
This is why I have said for YEARS that I believe that MMOs should be made either for PvP or for PvE, but not for both. Two different customer groups, two different sets of "features" for their MMO, two different mindsets.
I have nothing against PvP in a MMO, I support Devs making PvP MMOs. Just make me a PvE MMO where I can go play and I am happy. (and they do).
(Note: I used to play EVE, now I do not. I am not one of them whiny PvEers asking for more PvE in EVE. I know where I do not belong.)
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I agree.
IMO PvE players 'whine' more about content being to hard. PvP players 'whine' about PvE getting more attention than PvP.
But like Lord.Bachus said, who the hell cares.
#1 from what Ive noticed.
DFUW is a prime example. It went from DFO, known for being a hardcore FFA PvP game to DFUW, a game where you can max out a character without ever leaving the safe zones yet people still whine that there should be PvE servers.
No one questioned whether it can work or not. The question was which complaint scenario is more common.
My experience has been the same as Kazuhiro's:
"In terms of what I've personally seen, the first is VASTLY more common. I rarely ever see pvpers complaining about a lack of pvp in a pve game, but I see pve'ers complain night and day about pvp games having no or little pve in complete and total safety.
Which is suprising, considering how many pve games there are, and how few pvp ones there are."
It's rare you'll see someone in chat complain about a lack of PVP because almost every MMO has a PVP zone or PVP server. However, complaints about PvE safety in PVP MMOs are incessant due to either unrealistic expectations on the part of the PvE player and poor design on the part of the devs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didn't vote.
Here is why: We as players need to be more secure. We as players need to stop demanding changes to games to cater more to our play style. Again, "Don't like it, Don't play it.". That is my mantra.
Frankly I am sick of this attitude, which I see EVERYWHERE, that everything needs to be all inclusive to everyone. Seriously. Get a grip people. Some like hot dogs, some don't. Luckily for us there are several types of hot dogs, beef, pork, turkey, I'm sure if you looked hard enough a vegan option. Plus, if that still doesn't please you have a hamburger. This is my point.
Stop the complaining and log off. Go find a different game. Go find a different hobby. Go make different friends. Be more secure and "Do what cha like.". Stop trying to change what I like.
I said nothing with regards to it working or not.
I directly answered the question and provided my reasoning.
Read it again once you've woken up a bit
And on MMORPG.com, we have the special extra added bonus of witnessing whining from both sides during development. Pre-alpha? Who cares! We're gonna bitch, moan, and complain like the game is our spouse! Yeah!
edit 1: I didn't vote.
edit 2: You should read the last two sentences in Denis Leary's rant voice.
"PvE can exist perfectly well without PvP, but the reverse has proven (almost) impossible to achieve in an MMO thus far."
Then I didn't get the point of that statement. Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter. If anything, your statement is the reason why your answer should be the former, as people don't complain about a working system, but will complain when they feel the system is broken and should be changed to suit them, despite how near-impossible it is to achieve.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Still not woken up yet?
"Whether something does or doesn't work and how it does or doesn't work is irrelevant to the frequency of complaints on the matter"
Of course it isn't irrelevant. If something works, then there will be fewer complaints. That's far from being irrelevant. You even go on to confirm that it's relevant in your following sentence!
Again, I should point out to you that I made no mention of anything regarding whether it works or not. Please stop reading that into my words.
As you're arguing against something that wasn't even said, and then refusing to acknowledge, despite my affirmation, that there was no mention of 'working' and then following it up by contradicting yourself, I'm afraid I see no point in responding to you again unless you wish to discuss that I said as oppose to what I didn't, for I have no desire to derail the thread in such a manner.
It seems to me that the #1 complaint is "class balance" which typically comes from the PvP players. I could be mistaken.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"Why do I have to level up at all? Why can't we start at the cap? etc."
Have a great morning.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would love to see this same type of question about having games include console compatibility.
For example
"How many people who have a PC and a console demand a game be playable on a console" ?
This comes from the general lack of quality games or the lack of certain features in most games. People join certain games because theese games do have certain mechanics, that no other (good) game has though the same game might have aspects they don't like. Lets take Archage as an example. It offers same rare features for pve players that might realy attract(like the housing, farming, trading) them to the game even if they hate pvp. In addition they might believe they can live with the pvp. Once joined the game and played for a while they notice the pvp is even more dominant than they thought and get frustrated but being a part of the community they don't just leave but try to change the game into a direction they would like more. that "trying to change" is something most individuals do within their communities. Itss not confined to mmo's its part of everything within rl as well(from decorating your house to establishing/changing laws for your country).
The question who tries this more often is very depedant on individual perception. Personally i've seen more pvp'er trying to increase pvp aspects of a game than pve'er trying to reduce the pvp aspects of a pvp game. As for pve content in general its more difficult as both pve and pvp players always want more or changed pve-content.
That is because forced pvp and forced pve is not the same. I'll try an analogy:
You are forced to work, type of work would correspond to pve/pvp, for this example 40h a week
forced pve: You need to work 40h but you decide about at what time you start working, how long, your breaks...
forced pvp: You need to work and (within certain limits) your boss decides about your working hours
As a player you have control over the pve. You need a break? Just head to a safe spot and thats it(solo-play, group-play is of corse more restricted but your whole group could do it). With forced pvp you don't have that control unless you log out and even that has restrictions(and logging ut because you just need 5mins for some RL issue sucks).
Another point is there are far more pve players that don't want pvp than pvp players that hate pve. This fact alone creates a difference.
I believe that was in the context of a MMORPG, whereas Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS.
I have witnessed both cases in different MMORPGs before but the former is far more prevalent than the latter in my experience.
Most people who are PvE exclusive will just avoid PvP centric games or servers or leave if they were misinformed of the gaems nature
PvPers however infest every game and demand it change to suit them.This may or may not be due to the lack of PvP centric MMO of their liking existing to date or may just be they feel every game should cater to them.
Definitely the latter. Even games which were obviously always intended to be PvE-focused like LOTRO are infested by whiny PvPers.
Exactly!
PvE players keep whining about all the PvP MMOs....where the heck are they!!
How many quality PvE MMOs have we ever seen?
If you're going to discount all the PvP based mmos because they've not "quality" then why not do the same for PvE mmos?
As for the OP, pvpers go to a pve game and complain incessantly about . . . well . . . everything. I don't know how often PvE players willingly download and play a PvP mmo? So the people complaining about lack of PvE in a PvP MMO are probably also PvPers who happen to feel like some PvE sprinkled in.
PvPers cry about any class or ability that hurts them, they cry because they don't have rewards, they cry because they do have rewards, they cry when pvp is random and devolves into gank squads or one large guild facerolling everyone else, they cry when not enough people are playing, they cry when pvp is instanced or e-sport style, they cry when it isn't fair. PvPers just cry constantly about every aspect.
I do think MMO's need some pvp to have longevity, but it needs to be separate from PvE and left alone. Let it be unbalanced, let it be silly. PvPers ruin more games than anyone or anything else. Class homogenization? Thank you pvpers. Nerfing interesting flavorful abilities? Thank you pvpers. Nerfing fun like climbing and exploration due to exploiting things like roofs and hiding inside of rocks? Thank you pvpers. Requiring a different set of gear for pvp because "pvpers shouldn't have to pve to get the best gear"? Thank you pvpers.
An MMO should be first and foremost a world, not a pvp deathmatch. Basically what pvpers want, is a counter-strike map the size of a large MMO world with swords and spells (because they refuse to go play EVE regardless of how amazing they keep saying it is since it has space ships and not swords).
If asked, I will always say that I'm a PvEers first. But I do love pvp, but I only enjoy pvp if I'm fighting people who know that I'm about to fight them and are ready for it. Not if they're busy fighting a mob, not if they're gathering some wood, not if they're minding their own business. Not if it's 10 of my buddies just stomping some solo or small group. Not if they're lower level. I want the competition, because I want to know that I beat someone that was trying, that was ready. Otherwise my victory is hollow.
If you oblierate a 3 year old at chess, are you impressed with yourself? Do you feel satisfaction? No, it's meaningless. That's why Usain Bolt doesn't race against fat Susan from the reception desk, because winning a gold medal when she's your opponent doesn't mean anything.