I don't think it was a feeling of entitlement to the content, although I do recognize that there was(is) some of that sentiment that exists.
Rather, I firmly blame World of Warcraft.
The marketing geniuses at Blizzard/Activision figured out if you could lessen (or remove) the burdens to get to content, so that casual players could get at it, you'd get more casual players. Not just a few more players; a lot more players. Millions more players.
It isn't because the players that were there felt entitled to content, it was that developers removed the restrictions and opened the floodgates, and the people came in droves.
I can make a gimpy analogy: There are those that despise people who shop at (Insert some high-end retailer here), but by and large, those people that shop there are not really torn down. Rather, someone like Wal-Mart comes in, offers similar products at much lower prices, and lo and behold - WalMart becomes the largest retailer in the world. It wasn't because the shopper demanded products and services, it was because the retailer found a way to make them available.
I think the OP is on to something, but has rather latched on to the wrong cause for the outcome.
I see where you are coming from, but i disagree, i'll give you a good example:
The main community arm/developer point of contact for WOW was a guy named Ghostcrawler.
Now, what happened is in Burning Crusade, the playerbase whined and pissed and moaned about having to crowd control mobs in dungeon runs, it was too hard and tedious, and it made them have to have a super specific group make up and blah blah blah blah. So, in WOTLK they made it so you could faceroll dungeons. Tanks literally would just run into a group, spam some AOE taunts, and then the DPS would AOE down the mobs. There was no more of this "kill the healer first, or take out the caster who is mana burning, etc". So, then when that happened people started complaining that dungeons were too easy, etc. So, in Cataclysm, they brought back some of the group mechanics, and guess what. People bitched, i mean 1000+ page threads on the forums, just bitching incessantly. So Ghostcrawler goes and makes a big blog post trying to explain to everyone the thinking behind this, and essentially tells people to L2P. This literally throws jet fuel on the fire and created a forum explosion of bitching that was unlike anything you had ever seen before.
People talk about vanilla wow with reverence because the game degenerated into ultra casual face roll MMO, SOLELY because of casual player whining. They whined about EVERYTHING, leveling times, loot drops, how hard mobs were, how having to spend 2 minutes walking to a dungeon entrance was ridiculous, so they added in porting straight into the dungeon. They complained that the skill tree was too complicated and so blizzard dumbed it down so basically you had enough points to fill almost the entire tree instead of actually havign to think about your spec and try to synergize abilities and such. The casuals complained EVEN MORE so they dumbed it down EVEN further to where you dont even have a skill tree. Now you can literally just mash 2 or 3 abilities and do MAXIMUM DPS!!!!11.
People wonder why MMOs have no community and dont feel like worlds. But then god forbid they give up their porting straight into dungeons, LFG tools, flying mounts, quest trackers, taking more than an hour to make 1 level, etc, etc.
And this pritty much sums up exactly what is wrong with MMOs atm
Originally posted by Salahudin definitely 15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..
Well said. Being able to buy gear with endgame stats for real money so you can get there no matter how bad you play is not an improvement.
I think this came down to the fact that developers worked on content that 90% (that's not an exaggeration, that's the number) of players did not see. At the same time they watched players leave for lack of content....THAT WAS IN THE GAME ALREADY. How stupid is that? To access the raid content in most of vanilla you need 40 people geared and skilled enough to raid who actually logged on each raid night. It was inaccessible.They have made it accessible.
I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction. Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme. The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR. There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see. All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.
I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction. Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme. The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR. There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see. All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.
LFR *is* that middle ground. You don't get to see all the mechanics, and you don't get the best loot.
Making the art, and the level design of the dungeons cost a lot. There is no reason have dungeons only 10% get to see.
I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction. Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme. The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR. There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see. All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.
LFR *is* that middle ground. You don't get to see all the mechanics, and you don't get the best loot.
Making the art, and the level design of the dungeons cost a lot. There is no reason have dungeons only 10% get to see.
You are making an argument for a very narrow game here, 'everyone being able to see it' should not be the determining factor of game design. If you go down that route you would have no raids, no group content and nothing would need to be crafted. There has to be different gameplay for those who put the time in different areas. Otherwise you are going to get bored with the game candy very quickly.
If you are the sort of person who does not raid, does not group and does not craft, I would put it to you that you would have already left the MMO. I see no point in putting all the design time into making areas for those who will leave in a couple of months regardless anyway.
Originally posted by SlampigI don't know but for some reason this post totally pisses me off.
Is it perhaps because it is drawing attention to an entitlement complex?
Bingo!
I want a subscription. I want equal opportunity. I want to be able to work for something and get it where someone else doesn't want to put in the effort. If there is no hard work, then there is no reward...only welfare. Which is why players cancel in a month or 2. I am done with Virtual Online Communism.
I mean really. If I buy an full access pass to Disney World and take my family there on vacation for a week. Do I really have the right to get pissed because I couldn't get to every attraction they have, because I can't take my kids on the attractions or I don't have the time to see it all? Should I ask Disney to make a Theme Park that is more compact and has less to offer and is faster and easier to get through just so I can come home and say "Yep!.....Saw it all"? Or is it more fun to go back in a couple years and do it again but this time see what I missed the last time?
OP says "in the early days of MMO's" but actually means in EQ. UO's content was much more accessible without causing all the doom and gloom he attributes to people wanting access to the content they paid for. I believe if anything is absurd and contributing to the current state of the genre its the raiders first, screw everybody else mentality that is EQ's legacy. There are ways to make challenging, engaging content without all the garbage that has come from developers being locked into raiding as endgame.
With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.
Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.
We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.
Lets take Disneyworld. Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit. They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do. The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it. So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.
So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way. You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once. Nobody begrudged the people who could. They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun. Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever. Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.
Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them. We have ourselves in our current situation.
You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes. Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long. Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material. It dumbs it down, makes it worthless. Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.
So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you. In the process the thing is ruined.
Its true..
It makes me think of my time in EQ, I was in such a small,tight knit guild.We didnt have the numbers to experience everyhing in the game.We only went as far as The Plane of Fear as far as the Planes go.Yet no one cared,We did our dungeons,helped each other level and do quests and we were just as happy and content.
Thats not to say I wasnt envious of people with the uberest gear hanging out in E Commons,but I never felt the sense of entitlement.I just went back to my own adventures and had fun.
"Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre."
Maybe a little but I think the biggest thing is companies are tired of spending so much time and money that only 10% of its users can see.
I think people need to think back to the last time they worked really hard at something, to the point where they went past your believed threshold and really worked towards something they really wanted. How long ago was that? Was it easy? Probably not, it probably took a while but the harder and more challenging it was the better you felt accomplishing it.
So you pay $15 a month for a game that's ever growing, that's reasonable, we all gotta make money and you enjoy what they do so you support them. But people think that because they paid for their game (Like everyone else), they should get to play with the rest of the people who have achieved more and worked harder then them. Well, just because you try out for the football team and you train and practice and dedicate so much time to it, it doesn't mean you get a free pass onto the varsity team, only the best get to be on that team. That doesn't mean you'll never be able to be on that team, or get to run through those endgame dungeons and get the best raiding loot, but no one can just get a free ride to what's best, you gotta get good at what you wanna do and prove why you're better then everyone else. Competition is going to always be alive in something, no matter what it is, and honestly if you're not willing to put the time into something you really want, then maybe this isn't what's for you, maybe your time is better put towards something you really, really want. I'm sorry that everything in life can't be free, but in the long run it's much more rewarding that way.
well like it or not, it all comes down too $$$$. 1 player want too be elite for $15 a month, 5 want too be casual for $15 a month, both sides say they will leave if you don't cater to them, which side wins? the bigger $$$ amount
their a reason why pvp only, hardcore games are niche, low profit, no mater how loud you yell, complain or feel you deserve better, $$$ talks.
blizzard has 5 million + subs because it not following trends you feel are best, but catering too casuals. yes every MMO is now following suit why? because blizzard proved casual sells not hardcore....
With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.
Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.
We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.
Lets take Disneyworld. Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit. They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do. The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it. So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.
So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way. You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once. Nobody begrudged the people who could. They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun. Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever. Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.
Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them. We have ourselves in our current situation.
You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes. Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long. Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material. It dumbs it down, makes it worthless. Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.
So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you. In the process the thing is ruined.
It has never been illustrated in such a perfect manner. Thankyou for voicing my opinion perfectly. Casuals ruining the genre.
Originally posted by Kyleran You aren't using the correct analogy. Think more like paying for entrance to a national wilderness park. Sure, your 10.00 fee gets you in, and you are free to walk around, hike the trails, take pictures etc. But, if you want to zip line, or white water raft you'll probably have to pay extra, sometimes quite a bit more than the entrance fee to partake. Some activities, such as mountain climbing or rock wall rappelling are just going to be unavailable to you either due to physical limitations or the fact you don't have the time to climb to 14k foot mark on the mountain. So think of a MMO environment as one where there are multiple options for fun, however you might not get to experience all of it without some additional investments of either time or money, which you actually may never have. And that's OK, games do not have to be designed so that everyone may experience everything.
It's more like a dynamic rock-climbing wall where the people who make it are able to offer, for the same price, various difficulties of rock climbing. Everyone gets to experience "the wall".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
^^ if blizzard owned that wall they would slowly build a ladder that got higher each week, until eventally there is no climb, but everyone has the transient buzz of getting to the top.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
And this pritty much sums up exactly what is wrong with MMOs atm
Nonsense.
Is it perhaps because it is drawing attention to an entitlement complex?
Well said. Being able to buy gear with endgame stats for real money so you can get there no matter how bad you play is not an improvement.
I think this came down to the fact that developers worked on content that 90% (that's not an exaggeration, that's the number) of players did not see. At the same time they watched players leave for lack of content....THAT WAS IN THE GAME ALREADY. How stupid is that? To access the raid content in most of vanilla you need 40 people geared and skilled enough to raid who actually logged on each raid night. It was inaccessible.They have made it accessible.
I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction. Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme. The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR. There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see. All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.
LFR *is* that middle ground. You don't get to see all the mechanics, and you don't get the best loot.
Making the art, and the level design of the dungeons cost a lot. There is no reason have dungeons only 10% get to see.
You are making an argument for a very narrow game here, 'everyone being able to see it' should not be the determining factor of game design. If you go down that route you would have no raids, no group content and nothing would need to be crafted. There has to be different gameplay for those who put the time in different areas. Otherwise you are going to get bored with the game candy very quickly.
If you are the sort of person who does not raid, does not group and does not craft, I would put it to you that you would have already left the MMO. I see no point in putting all the design time into making areas for those who will leave in a couple of months regardless anyway.
Bingo!
I want a subscription. I want equal opportunity. I want to be able to work for something and get it where someone else doesn't want to put in the effort. If there is no hard work, then there is no reward...only welfare. Which is why players cancel in a month or 2. I am done with Virtual Online Communism.
I mean really. If I buy an full access pass to Disney World and take my family there on vacation for a week. Do I really have the right to get pissed because I couldn't get to every attraction they have, because I can't take my kids on the attractions or I don't have the time to see it all? Should I ask Disney to make a Theme Park that is more compact and has less to offer and is faster and easier to get through just so I can come home and say "Yep!.....Saw it all"? Or is it more fun to go back in a couple years and do it again but this time see what I missed the last time?
Its true..
It makes me think of my time in EQ, I was in such a small,tight knit guild.We didnt have the numbers to experience everyhing in the game.We only went as far as The Plane of Fear as far as the Planes go.Yet no one cared,We did our dungeons,helped each other level and do quests and we were just as happy and content.
Thats not to say I wasnt envious of people with the uberest gear hanging out in E Commons,but I never felt the sense of entitlement.I just went back to my own adventures and had fun.
"Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre."
Maybe a little but I think the biggest thing is companies are tired of spending so much time and money that only 10% of its users can see.
Is this the 1st time you have heard the term "Theme Park" used to reference a style of MMORPG?
I think people need to think back to the last time they worked really hard at something, to the point where they went past your believed threshold and really worked towards something they really wanted. How long ago was that? Was it easy? Probably not, it probably took a while but the harder and more challenging it was the better you felt accomplishing it.
So you pay $15 a month for a game that's ever growing, that's reasonable, we all gotta make money and you enjoy what they do so you support them. But people think that because they paid for their game (Like everyone else), they should get to play with the rest of the people who have achieved more and worked harder then them. Well, just because you try out for the football team and you train and practice and dedicate so much time to it, it doesn't mean you get a free pass onto the varsity team, only the best get to be on that team. That doesn't mean you'll never be able to be on that team, or get to run through those endgame dungeons and get the best raiding loot, but no one can just get a free ride to what's best, you gotta get good at what you wanna do and prove why you're better then everyone else. Competition is going to always be alive in something, no matter what it is, and honestly if you're not willing to put the time into something you really want, then maybe this isn't what's for you, maybe your time is better put towards something you really, really want. I'm sorry that everything in life can't be free, but in the long run it's much more rewarding that way.
well like it or not, it all comes down too $$$$. 1 player want too be elite for $15 a month, 5 want too be casual for $15 a month, both sides say they will leave if you don't cater to them, which side wins? the bigger $$$ amount
their a reason why pvp only, hardcore games are niche, low profit, no mater how loud you yell, complain or feel you deserve better, $$$ talks.
blizzard has 5 million + subs because it not following trends you feel are best, but catering too casuals. yes every MMO is now following suit why? because blizzard proved casual sells not hardcore....
It has never been illustrated in such a perfect manner. Thankyou for voicing my opinion perfectly. Casuals ruining the genre.
It's more like a dynamic rock-climbing wall where the people who make it are able to offer, for the same price, various difficulties of rock climbing. Everyone gets to experience "the wall".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
That is just a matter of perspective. Particularly not true if you are a casual.