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Dave Georgeson Discusses How EQNext May Have Multiclasses Like FFIX/FFXIV

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  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common

    The Rift system is completely awful from an immersion/roleplaying standpoint.  Your Rift character has zero identity, he is an amoeba.

    In order to pull off a flexible multiclass system two things need to happen:  

    1. It cant be on the fly switching.  Being a tank for one boss and dps for the next is *atrocious* raid design.  You should have to find a way to make your pieces fit, not swap out for perfect pieces every single fight.

    Now a system where you can swing by a town and change your class/skills every couple of hours, thats a little bit better provided #2 is met.

    2. There better be some good rp/immersion in the game, especially relating to multiclassing.  if i want to learn to be a necromancer i should have to do an indepth quest at least along the lines of an EQ2 heritage quest to be able to begin to practice the necromantic arts, and then i should have to level them from scratch.  in addition the game needs to have a strong sense of character progression in general.

    The system doesnt work in Rift (from an immersion standpoint) because your character creates absolutely no bond to the world, or to his class.  Even the terribly designed initial quests to learn new souls were scrapped because Trion felt doing a 3 minute quest to unlock a soul was too much work.

     

     

    The system works for FFXI because their is a strong sense of character progression in that game and you have to earn your way up into the new classes.

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    The Rift system is completely awful from an immersion/roleplaying standpoint.  Your Rift character has zero identity, he is an amoeba.

    In order to pull off a flexible multiclass system two things need to happen:  

    1. It cant be on the fly switching.  Being a tank for one boss and dps for the next is *atrocious* raid design.  You should have to find a way to make your pieces fit, not swap out for perfect pieces every single fight.

    Now a system where you can swing by a town and change your class/skills every couple of hours, thats a little bit better provided #2 is met.

    2. There better be some good rp/immersion in the game, especially relating to multiclassing.  if i want to learn to be a necromancer i should have to do an indepth quest at least along the lines of an EQ2 heritage quest to be able to begin to practice the necromantic arts, and then i should have to level them from scratch.  in addition the game needs to have a strong sense of character progression in general.

    The system doesnt work in Rift (from an immersion standpoint) because your character creates absolutely no bond to the world, or to his class.  Even the terribly designed initial quests to learn new souls were scrapped because Trion felt doing a 3 minute quest to unlock a soul was too much work.

     

     

    The system works for FFXI because their is a strong sense of character progression in that game and you have to earn your way up into the new classes.

    I get the feeling from the way he talked about it that it would be more like something you don't do on the fly.  You talk to a retrainer in town, pay SC micro transaction, or do a quest, etc etc.

    I like the idea of doing a quest to unlock a class to respect to, though I don't feel that's needed.

    Just allowing the player to do it is enough, and limit it so that you're not changing it on the fly after every boss fight or in the middle of a dungeon run, would be perfect.

    Why should I have to recreate a character from the ground up just to try something new?  I've always hated that.  I like the way this designer thinks. (Because he thinks like me lol).

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  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by ropenice

    One thing i haven't seen mentioned is your characters attributes and their effects on their class. How can a fighter with low intelligence suddenly cast spells, or a physically weak wizzie put on plate mail and swing a two-handed sword that they could barely lift? Not to be nit-picky (probably too influenced by D&D paper rpg), but it feels kind of wrong for a toon to do everything and do it well, regardless of his attributes. I'm all for multi-class or skills anyone can learn to shape different kinds of fighters or casters so there is some differences, but not have one toon that can do anything.

    In the end won't all maxed out toons be the same? Just different names? I kinda like having a role to play and be known for.  Maybe a system that lets you switch roles in the same class archetype (if they have these) would be an option. Such as a fighter changing weapons/armor to go from tank to dps, or fighter to paladin to help heal. just throwing out ideas, but i feel that for role-play or to be known on your server, being really good at a class/role and grouping will showcase your toon better.

    just me 2 cents.

    That would just be a part of the "Respec".  Your stats would get changed around as well.  If you're looking for a Roleplay-style answer, it could be many things.

    The main thing that I would worry about is gear.  We don't know what kind of gear system EQN will have, but if it's anything like EQ or EQ2, it's going to be a real problem to "change classes/roles" when you got a full set of raid gear as a tank but you switch over to a mage or rogue.

    One thing to consider though is that the game is going to be a sandbox, with probably a huge emphasis on crafting.  So maybe this could be a way they stimulate the economy.  A lot of players with a class-changing system is going to want to buy and maintain more than 1 gear setup.

    As for reputation.  I think a "good" player will be able to play any class well.  You'll build a reputation as a good player or a bad player.  Nothing really changes.  If you're always switching classes and never learning how to play, you'll have a bad rep.

    Switching around your attributes? Don't like the sound of that. Would break immersion for me. You have a regular crew or guild you group with, and the next day your skinny wizard friend is now a buff fighter- just wouldn't feel right. I guess I just play games different than you (nothing wrong with that). It's still just speculation at this point anyway, as we don't know what any of these cryptic hints they keep dropping really mean for the game. Anyone being able to do anything would kill the role play- it just doesn't make sense that u can suddenly be smart enough to be a wizard by going to a trainer and then an hour later you are strong again and fighting melee. I'm probably thinking too much about it, but I like alts to play a different role. You get to choose different race, different look, try out new starting zones and areas you missed the first time leveling, etc. I like the change.

  • DejoblueDejoblue Youngstown, OHPosts: 296Member Uncommon
    Every MMO ever made has an instant respec button, the logout button. That's right, you log over to your alt and instead of warrior tank you are now cleric healer.

    Of course I have to level each and every alt. Do you naysayers really think that once you get to max level they are going to just give you a button and let you switch classes without having to actually level up that class or that class's abilities? Did you really read it that way?

    I personally hope there are no classes and no character levels, only skills and skill levels. There will still be roles, unless they pull a GW2 with encounters, so yes tanks will have to get these specific abilities and if they dont have them other players will throw a fit, same with healers and DPS. Does it kind of defeat the point? Certainly, however, I would contend that the PLAYERS are the ones deciding what the role is supposed to have learned and that good, or poor, players could begin to work outside of that role's definition and develop new builds that are better and then every tank will have to go and learn this other set of abilities.

    If done correctly, like EVE which has 22 years worth of skills to train(literal years), then the game will evolve. We will have players go in making a straight warrior or paladin tank, some may mess about and do some hybrid type things and we will get to "max level" or a specific number of skill points deemed to participate in dungeon X or raid Y and we will have basic warrior tanks and basic hybrids.

    Then something cool will happen, as time goes on and other abilities are learned those warrior tanks will continue to progress.

    EQ2 has 25 classes. Now imagine how long it would take to level all 25 classes. Now apply that to one character. Then throw in AAs. Then throw in expansions and either level cap increase or skill increases or AA increase or all three!

    Sure some crazy person with no life, like yours truly, may max them all out but if done correctly then there will be limits such as EQs 8 spell gem slots.

    I think of i that way. 8 abilities and the basic melee of attack, dodge, parry, block...

    But we do not have any context, unfortunately. What restrictions are there going to be to prevent this from being like Darkfall, where every player had the same build? That is what has me concerned, not the ability to instantly change classes, because we already have that and always will.

    I do understand the wont to roleplay because a system like I have described will let me do exactly what I want. Maybe I am a Paladin and instead of betraying to SK I betray to Necromancer. Do I lose some Paladin abilities? Most likely, especially if prayer at an altar is some kind of limit in place. How can I have daily miracles if my God has been shunned?

    And this brings me to what Smed said about factions. This may very well play into that as well. Maybe I can now never be a cleric because the cleric NPCs wont speak to me because I am or was a Necromancer and now I must gain enough favor to even speak with them, which would bring away my Necromancer abilities.

    Sure I may still have all the abilities learned, but I may not be able to use them and without a proper God behind them they may just be as useful as cantrips in DND.

    Now sure this may mean I am able to be a SK tank one moment and a Necromancer the next or a Warrior tank one moment and a Cleric healer the next. But with this at the core, everything you do will effect things as basic as what abilities you can use because of all of these factions. A constant ebb and flow of factions pulling you one way or another. Much more compelling than even the traditional, Good/Evil/Neutral/Lawful/Chaotic paradigm we know so well.

  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member
    Replayability takes a huge hit when alts become pointless.
  • ice-vortexice-vortex Xenia, OHPosts: 951Member
    Originally posted by Bjelar
    Replayability takes a huge hit when alts become pointless.

    Only in themepark games.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,272Member Uncommon

    Do it like Wushu, you can learn all schools, but not as high a rank as someone of that school.

     

    Doesn't have to be exactly like that, but it does make sense.

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dullaha

     

    Of course it matters.

    It didn't take him less than 10 minutes to get that character up to the level necessary to be useful, thats the difference.

    Just being able to change your role or your build from one moment to the next is bad.  It breaks down the need for players to seek out others to fill certain roles the same way tuning mmos to solo play destroys the challenge and interdependence that used to exist in online MULTIPLAYER games.  This line of thinking is what has resulted in the complete streamlining and trivialization of the genre and that thought process is the culprit for removing the need or any sense of community in mmorpgs. 

    you obviously havent played mmos with features like this if you think what you say is true

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Jigawatts

    I would love a system similar to FF11, where I can level to 50 as a Druid then switch and level to 50 as a Bard, and switch between back and forth in between.

    I do not want a system, class based or skill based, that blends everything together. I like the archetypes and the defined roles each class brings to the table.

    It would be illogical to put in a lot of hard work on a system that lets you freely change your character's class, and then just make every class perform all roles.  Also, Everquest is known for it's great and diverse class/role system.  I doubt they'd throw that out the window.

    You couldnt freely change your class in FF11 anytime you felt like it, you would have to go all the way back to your house in the city to do it.  And on top of that it took about half a year to even get one class to max level in that game so most people would focus on one class and a secondary class to about level 37 as subjob for the main.

  • DullahanDullahan Posts: 2,053Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Do it like Wushu, you can learn all schools, but not as high a rank as someone of that school.

     

    Doesn't have to be exactly like that, but it does make sense.

    Oh gosh, please no.

    Wushu's system would never work in a game with distinct roles, or anything with real PvE.  It was only good for Wushu because of the nature of the game, a giant fast paced PvP arena.


  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bjelar
    Replayability takes a huge hit when alts become pointless.

    Depending on implementation.

    If it takes 200 hours doing 4 different storylines to level 1 character to maximum in 4 professions or 50 hours each for 4 characters each doing its own different storyline there is little difference.

    There is no logic in making blanket statements on features removed from all relevant systems.

  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member

    Only one other person mentioned this -- You think its going to be free to do all of this? When its a free to play game? Of course not.

     

    They can charge money for "switching" or charge money for "learning a brand new school" I guess since people are comparing it to Rift, they'd rather charge money for learning a brand new school/art as opposed to always be paying for switching. Neverwinter charges $$ for changing specs and its atrocious

     

     

    I guess their other alternative would have been 1 character per account, you pay $5 for another character slot. They probably make more money in the above method as more people would learn new schools compared to rerolling

    And as others have pointed out -- This is a Sandbox game, not a PvE end-game raid on every tuesday game. While even usually I would usually say "These features? This is terrible for a themepark because it creates lazy raid design" but at this point I'm not expecting to be amazed or reliant on raids, as it seems like they are far more focused on crafting being the best way to get the best gear. (And for all we know, crafting may provide the best gear bar none in the game)

    Something I wonder about though is how do you avoid newb zones being filled with zero players within months of the game launching, if there is never incentive to go back to a starting zone? 

     

    Also I know people might laugh.. But is it wrong that if this is indeed true about having the abilities Dave is talking about, that it makes me want World PvP even more? It doesnt have to be non-consensual (Although under circumstances, I wouldnt mind) but atleast have zones of high value resources/mobs that are PvP enabled zones. I feel like if we have all this utility and all we use it on are PvE mobs that dont matter and building houses together, there isnt much reason for us to have all this utility as PvE endgame might have little to no impact at all on the game.

     

  • GholosGholos GenovaPosts: 209Member

    As a say in another topic, i think that one class must have a role, but doesnt it means that you can do only one thing...a warrior for example can tank or be a melee dps, but you have to respec and use another equipment (not ista switch from a role to another) i  m not against variery i m against illogical choices: for example a wizard or a rogue that can tank as a full plated warrior, a warrior that can do more ranged dps than a ranger and so on...in GW2 the game i m actualy playing there are such illogical choices: light classes that can do bunker spec (elementalist, engineer) and be more durable than a warrior that wear plate armor; guardian that should be the tank of the game that have less hp than than other classes and so on...i play a warrior in GW2 that is supposed to be a melee  and very often i have to use rifle to kill a boss.                                                                   

    Well, i hope that in EQN will not such illogical things and most important thing that will be an aggro managment and taunt skill, otherwise the PvE will be boring as in GW2, without tatics and coordination.

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  • H3deonH3deon GrPosts: 36Member
    just a guess, but when read Georgeson, instantly though oh so it will be like PS2, you go to a place and shift class - and yess all classes are free in planetside 2
  • DullahanDullahan Posts: 2,053Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by H3deon
    just a guess, but when read Georgeson, instantly though oh so it will be like PS2, you go to a place and shift class - and yess all classes are free in planetside 2

    Thats one way to have everyone shift their EQ Next directory into the recycling bin.


  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    I could see an overall progression system like PS2 but not as easy as getting to a terminal. There was mention of travelling to find reagents and other quips that make me think things won't be so easy in EQN.

    Though if the system had you go through tasks and gain favor with class trainers I think multi-classing is doable. Add specific progression points inside each class and you could have a ton of play ahead of you. I think the more ways to play the game the better.

    I also think that each class can play each role. Why not? Because D&D said so? I like D&D as much as the next nerd but limiting an RPG seems a bit silly. If I'm a Mage why can't I tank using energy fields to lessen blows and rock golems to distract the mob. If I'm a rogue why can't I life siphon to heal my group mates. I get why there is preconceived notions about certain class roles I just don't think they apply 40 years later.
  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Hopefully the make it like star wars galaxies, where you could master one class and then train skills from other classes to make your character unique.  I think you had 220 skill points.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    Single class, multi class, both are highly overrated..

     

    I think the game would do best with a skilltree based progression

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    image
  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Selirii_Deuvlerii
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Hopefully the make it like star wars galaxies, where you could master one class and then train skills from other classes to make your character unique.  I think you had 220 skill points.
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Single class, multi class, both are highly overrated..

     

    I think the game would do best with a skilltree based progression

    the problem you guys are ignoring is teh fact that "open skill tree specialization" results in FOTM & independent roles THAT AREN'T fully FUNCTIONAL INDEPENDENTLY O_O

     

    reduced options, flavor of the month preferred specs, it's a sh17hole of reduced choice to be a copycat of crap like Ultima & RuneScape

     

    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    If it's any system other than the one similar to FFXI forget it. The problem with open skill systems like the one some of you are describing is that sooner rather than later the min/maxing starts. Then you have players looking for specific skills that have good synergy with others and before long every tanks needs these skills and every healer needs those skills and all dps has to have skills that maximize damage.

     

    The beauty of FFXI's job system was that only thing a player had to do was level the class and not worry about juggling skills. The skills came with the class. Also the only place you could change jobs was at your home. This gave picking a class and sub class a little weight unless your party was willing to wait for you to run back to your house to switch. Also jobs had goo synergy with several other jobs so it was not uncommon to see a WAR/MNK, WAR/SAM, WAR/THF and so on.

     

    But if EQN goes an entirely different route, I just hope it's not like Rift or any other skill switching system. Keep things at the job/class level or make it like SWG. BUt if they do make it like SWG there will be no need for roles nor a trinity.

    There are flavour of the month in a class system also, your class gets nerfed then it gets made op the next month. It's a joke of a system.

  • AceshighhhhAceshighhhh Gainesville, FLPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I could see an overall progression system like PS2 but not as easy as getting to a terminal. There was mention of travelling to find reagents and other quips that make me think things won't be so easy in EQN.

    Though if the system had you go through tasks and gain favor with class trainers I think multi-classing is doable. Add specific progression points inside each class and you could have a ton of play ahead of you. I think the more ways to play the game the better.

    I also think that each class can play each role. Why not? Because D&D said so? I like D&D as much as the next nerd but limiting an RPG seems a bit silly. If I'm a Mage why can't I tank using energy fields to lessen blows and rock golems to distract the mob. If I'm a rogue why can't I life siphon to heal my group mates. I get why there is preconceived notions about certain class roles I just don't think they apply 40 years later.

    Completely agree with this.

    Although instead of switching out between a predetermined class system, I think we're more likely to see a skill based system. Since SOE is advertising this game to be a sandbox experience, it would make sense to allow any character to skill into whatever they like - with limits of course.

    If someone wants to take up swords they should be able to pick up a sword and skill into it, or if they want to take up magic they could pick up a tome and skill into that - a bit similar to TES games. I feel that if this sort of system is designed right to prevent a lot of min/maxing, it would be a much more fitting design to an overall sandboxy experience.

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 760Member Uncommon

    Has anyone though that maybe they are going for a freeform skill based system similar to UO, pre-NGE SWG or pretty much all the other sandboxy games out there?

    They did say they wanted to make the largest sandbox game ever...

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,070Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Do it like Wushu, you can learn all schools, but not as high a rank as someone of that school.

     

    Doesn't have to be exactly like that, but it does make sense.

    No thanks, as much as i like AOW system i would prefer ArcheAge's system.

    12O class combinations http://archeagesource.com/topic/1092-archeage-class-trees-and-skills-descriptions-cbt5-english/

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  • ConvoConvo philadelphia, PAPosts: 158Member Uncommon
    I think there will be a class system in EQN similar to EQ with no hard factions.  Players will be able to change classes though hard core faction grinding and learning the new class.  
  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by dejoblue
    Every MMO ever made has an instant respec button, the logout button. That's right, you log over to your alt and instead of warrior tank you are now cleric healer.

    Of course I have to level each and every alt. Do you naysayers really think that once you get to max level they are going to just give you a button and let you switch classes without having to actually level up that class or that class's abilities? Did you really read it that way?

    That's not a "Respec button".  That's making an alt.  If you pay attention to the video, Dave is basically saying that a lot of people like putting all their effort into one main character, but dislike being locked into one class.  Yes, I do think they're going to offer a way to switch your character's class, because that's exactly what he was talking about in the video.  I don't think they're going to make it something where you just flip on the fly.  But something you can pay for on their cash shop, or a difficult quest, or at least make you go back to town to do it (and it'll have a cooldown timer)

    But that's exactly what he was talking about.  Not having to rework from 1 to cap just to try out a new class.

     

     

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