So a few things. First I'd like to point you to my first reply of this thread. Then I'd like to point out that while I don't think it's OMGWTFBBQ pay to win like some other games, you can't deny the fact that people with money to spend on the game do get a significant advantage to people who do not spend money on the game. Third, why do you and apparently everyone else assume that it's going to be new players buying characters? Threads like these end badly because it's so black and white, there needs to be a new term for games like these... pay to compete? pay to keep up games? I mean really.. what EVE player hasn't plexed himself because he got blown up a few times in a row?
I just want to say firs that I am going to try and not be "that guy" that tries to derail your approach by pointing out an exception or two to your statement. BUT, I will say that from personal experience over years of playing EVE, I really don't see a clear advantage to buying PLEX over those that don't. TBH, most people I know that buy or bought PLEX, including myself, only did or do so to 'keep up' with either their own character's SKILLS (books are expensive at later skill lvls) or to buy something(s) they shouldn't be buying yet (because let's face it, if you can't afford something in EVE, it's because it's purpose is not suited for the scale of gameplay you are currently a part of.) and last but not least, in the common cases where they/we don't have the IRL free time it takes to spend multiple hours every day doing the in-game tasks it takes to earn the ISK naturally. When you consider how much "hardcore" players make per day, or even per HOUR in EVE, the PLEX buyers' wallet size fade in comparison.
I've never met anyone, again, including myself, who buys or bought PLEX and ends up with more ISK than any serious player.
Like I said earlier, pay to win is a really black and white term. I did say that it's more likely something along the lines of pay to compete or pay to keep up, which you did clarify there. More importantly, if you die a few times in a row, you can spend awhile farming missions for ISK or whatever you do, or you can PLEX yourself. Is plexing yourself saving you time? Yes. Is that an advantage? Yes. Is it pay to win? Definitely not.
CCP gets ~$15 for every active account on that game assuming no free trial. Someone is paying for it.
Did I say somewhere in my post that this is not true? I don't understand your response considering you quoted that whole reply, especially because we aren't disagreeing on this lol
Is the OP's issue that he thinks no one is paying for it?
pay to win is a term for F2P not a subbed game that does not have a in game store as far as i can see this grimx person is doing nothing but trying real hard at being a troll
You can have a pay to win game without an in game store. Saying that it is a term strictly for f2p games is a little narrow minded. I mean, probably anyone here except for you apparently could think of a situation in which a p2p game could be p2w as well. Get some imagination.
CCP gets ~$15 for every active account on that game assuming no free trial. Someone is paying for it.
Did I say somewhere in my post that this is not true? I don't understand your response considering you quoted that whole reply, especially because we aren't disagreeing on this lol
Is the OP's issue that he thinks no one is paying for it?
It was a misread on my part. I wasn't really trying to argue with you, just clarifying. Nothing to see here people, move along =P
I was just talking about this recently with a friend.
I feel it is the greediest pay to win game I've ever played.
You can purchase unlimited amount of Plex for real money, so if you wanted you could buy anything.
But what about the argument you need to train in real time to learn skills? All you have to do is pay your monthly subscription, login occasionally to train skills, and with enough time ( and subscription fees) have any skill you want. You never even have to leave a space station to learn those skills. They suck as much money out of you in monthly fees as possible. While in other games, like Age of Wushu, you have to get experience to train those skills, not train those skills by just paying a monthly subscription.
How can anyone try to justify this game not being pay to win? It is no better than any other pay to win game out there and in many ways it is worse because they suck as much money as possible in monthly fees along the journey.
You have to love the hypocrisy of the MMO community.
So a few things. First I'd like to point you to my first reply of this thread. Then I'd like to point out that while I don't think it's OMGWTFBBQ pay to win like some other games, you can't deny the fact that people with money to spend on the game do get a significant advantage to people who do not spend money on the game. Third, why do you and apparently everyone else assume that it's going to be new players buying characters? Threads like these end badly because it's so black and white, there needs to be a new term for games like these... pay to compete? pay to keep up games? I mean really.. what EVE player hasn't plexed himself because he got blown up a few times in a row?
I just want to say firs that I am going to try and not be "that guy" that tries to derail your approach by pointing out an exception or two to your statement. BUT, I will say that from personal experience over years of playing EVE, I really don't see a clear advantage to buying PLEX over those that don't. TBH, most people I know that buy or bought PLEX, including myself, only did or do so to 'keep up' with either their own character's SKILLS (books are expensive at later skill lvls) or to buy something(s) they shouldn't be buying yet (because let's face it, if you can't afford something in EVE, it's because it's purpose is not suited for the scale of gameplay you are currently a part of.) and last but not least, in the common cases where they/we don't have the IRL free time it takes to spend multiple hours every day doing the in-game tasks it takes to earn the ISK naturally. When you consider how much "hardcore" players make per day, or even per HOUR in EVE, the PLEX buyers' wallet size fade in comparison.
I've never met anyone, again, including myself, who buys or bought PLEX and ends up with more ISK than any serious player.
Like I said earlier, pay to win is a really black and white term. I did say that it's more likely something along the lines of pay to compete or pay to keep up, which you did clarify there. More importantly, if you die a few times in a row, you can spend awhile farming missions for ISK or whatever you do, or you can PLEX yourself. Is plexing yourself saving you time? Yes. Is that an advantage? Yes. Is it pay to win? Definitely not.
I understand where you're coming from. I also see how in an EXTREME situation, someone might find this 'barely' distressing. But really, you seem highly bothered by all this, and I just don't see why you would, unless you've never played the game for any length of time. If that's the case, nothing wrong with that, just sounds like it may be a misunderstanding about the economy in all it's complexity and chaotic intricacy.
That being said, because of the fact that there is virtually no rules in how to acquire ISK in EVE, you should try to look at it from a different angle than 'does plex save you time? yes." because that is also very situation based..
There are players that earn far more ISK from in-game mechanics than a PLEX can get them in less time that it costs to pull out a credit card to buy the PLEX and then sell it on the market. It's just one of the avenues available for players to earn currency so they can throw the currency back into the economy and let it swim around.
Is it fair that a clever person can scam billions of ISK out of another player in seconds?
Does scamming save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
Does piracy save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
Does being smarter than the other guy save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
In the end, these are just a few things that ultimately will prove to net more ISK than buying PLEX does.
aww did the fail troll hit a nerve , there is no pay to win in eve plex gives tho who dont want to spend 15 bucks a month to play for free , sure you can spend all your real cash in buying them , the only game you will win at is the market game since everything in the game is just about player made , but but you can buy ships.
um sure you can buy ships but that's not the question, can you fly them? that is the question and the answer is no you cant , took me months to get the skill to fly my largest ship took friends of mine YEARS to fly what they have took even longer to fly the stealth class frigates then my battleship you have no clue how that game works and it shows so continue to be a fail troll trying to get something when there is nothing.
plex does not advance any learning since skills are needed to fly, to shoot ,to use the market ,to make items ,to pretty much do anything in eve you need skills but skills are not sped up by killing or anything by fighting or crafting it takes real life time to get the skills in fact the last skill i was learning before i stopped was going to take 6 months of real life time to get the level out of it
So a few things. First I'd like to point you to my first reply of this thread. Then I'd like to point out that while I don't think it's OMGWTFBBQ pay to win like some other games, you can't deny the fact that people with money to spend on the game do get a significant advantage to people who do not spend money on the game. Third, why do you and apparently everyone else assume that it's going to be new players buying characters? Threads like these end badly because it's so black and white, there needs to be a new term for games like these... pay to compete? pay to keep up games? I mean really.. what EVE player hasn't plexed himself because he got blown up a few times in a row?
I just want to say firs that I am going to try and not be "that guy" that tries to derail your approach by pointing out an exception or two to your statement. BUT, I will say that from personal experience over years of playing EVE, I really don't see a clear advantage to buying PLEX over those that don't. TBH, most people I know that buy or bought PLEX, including myself, only did or do so to 'keep up' with either their own character's SKILLS (books are expensive at later skill lvls) or to buy something(s) they shouldn't be buying yet (because let's face it, if you can't afford something in EVE, it's because it's purpose is not suited for the scale of gameplay you are currently a part of.) and last but not least, in the common cases where they/we don't have the IRL free time it takes to spend multiple hours every day doing the in-game tasks it takes to earn the ISK naturally. When you consider how much "hardcore" players make per day, or even per HOUR in EVE, the PLEX buyers' wallet size fade in comparison.
I've never met anyone, again, including myself, who buys or bought PLEX and ends up with more ISK than any serious player.
Like I said earlier, pay to win is a really black and white term. I did say that it's more likely something along the lines of pay to compete or pay to keep up, which you did clarify there. More importantly, if you die a few times in a row, you can spend awhile farming missions for ISK or whatever you do, or you can PLEX yourself. Is plexing yourself saving you time? Yes. Is that an advantage? Yes. Is it pay to win? Definitely not.
I understand where you're coming from. I also see how in an EXTREME situation, someone might find this 'barely' distressing. But really, you seem highly bothered by all this, and I just don't see why you would, unless you've never played the game for any length of time. If that's the case, nothing wrong with that, just sounds like it may be a misunderstanding about the economy in all it's complexity and chaotic intricacy.
That being said, because of the fact that there is virtually no rules in how to acquire ISK in EVE, you should try to look at it from a different angle than 'does plex save you time? yes." because that is also very situation based..
There are players that earn far more ISK from in-game mechanics than a PLEX can get them in less time that it costs to pull out a credit card to buy the PLEX and then sell it on the market. It's just one of the avenues available for players to earn currency so they can throw the currency back into the economy and let it swim around.
Is it fair that a clever person can scam billions of ISK out of another player in seconds?
Does scamming save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
Does piracy save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
Does being smarter than the other guy save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
In the end, these are just a few things that ultimately will prove to net more ISK than buying PLEX does.
While I agree with most of your points, I could argue that PLEX is more of a sure fire way to make money. Most of the ways you could make money in less time that it would take me to pull out my credit card would involve extreme luck and timing. PLEX will always be there with no risk. I'm not bothered by this at all, just talking to people on the internet. I don't think I've expressed any real emotion at all about it either way.
not true i haven't payed anything in years yet i keep getting come back for so many days to check this out offers and when i do i get on set a skill then log off you don't need a sub
not true i haven't payed anything in years yet i keep getting come back for so many days to check this out offers and when i do i get on set a skill then log off you don't need a sub
I think I understand the general message you're trying to convey. I could be wrong though.
aww did the fail troll hit a nerve , there is no pay to win in eve plex gives tho who dont want to spend 15 bucks a month to play for free , sure you can spend all your real cash in buying them , the only game you will win at is the market game since everything in the game is just about player made , but but you can buy ships.
um sure you can buy ships but that's not the question, can you fly them? that is the question and the answer is no you cant , took me months to get the skill to fly my largest ship took friends of mine YEARS to fly what they have took even longer to fly the stealth class frigates then my battleship you have no clue how that game works and it shows so continue to be a fail troll trying to get something when there is nothing.
plex does not advance any learning since skills are needed to fly, to shoot ,to use the market ,to make items ,to pretty much do anything in eve you need skills but skills are not sped up by killing or anything by fighting or crafting it takes real life time to get the skills in fact the last skill i was learning before i stopped was going to take 6 months of real life time to get the level out of it
So just to see your response to this, what about buying characters?
aww did the fail troll hit a nerve , there is no pay to win in eve plex gives tho who dont want to spend 15 bucks a month to play for free , sure you can spend all your real cash in buying them , the only game you will win at is the market game since everything in the game is just about player made , but but you can buy ships.
um sure you can buy ships but that's not the question, can you fly them? that is the question and the answer is no you cant , took me months to get the skill to fly my largest ship took friends of mine YEARS to fly what they have took even longer to fly the stealth class frigates then my battleship you have no clue how that game works and it shows so continue to be a fail troll trying to get something when there is nothing.
plex does not advance any learning since skills are needed to fly, to shoot ,to use the market ,to make items ,to pretty much do anything in eve you need skills but skills are not sped up by killing or anything by fighting or crafting it takes real life time to get the skills in fact the last skill i was learning before i stopped was going to take 6 months of real life time to get the level out of it
So just to see your response to this, what about buying characters?
Lol I want to see the response too, but for now I will respond.
"Wow, that's a cool F-16 Naval Aircraft! I'm rich, so, I want one. Purchased. Now, I've never piloted anything in my life, but I have a feeling I'm going to win now".... says someone, regarding to playing the game of LIFE.
Rather cryptic, I know... but to me, that's what the view of "paying to win" sounds like when we're talking about EVE.
See how irrelevant that situation is? In all fairness, it's quite exaggerated, but the point I want to make is in there.
What does buying a jet airplane have to do with anything? Especially if you can't fly it, can't afford to fuel it for the rest of your life, don't know anyone who pilots an aircraft carrier, can't fit it into your garage, have no one to protect it for you while you're sleeping, have no one to escort you when there are dangerous groups of F-16's out there waiting to kill the losers who fly alone, and last but not least, when the objective of the game is different for each person that plays it. How can you win at all?
Originally posted by Fendel84M I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing...Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.
aww did the fail troll hit a nerve , there is no pay to win in eve plex gives tho who dont want to spend 15 bucks a month to play for free , sure you can spend all your real cash in buying them , the only game you will win at is the market game since everything in the game is just about player made , but but you can buy ships.
um sure you can buy ships but that's not the question, can you fly them? that is the question and the answer is no you cant , took me months to get the skill to fly my largest ship took friends of mine YEARS to fly what they have took even longer to fly the stealth class frigates then my battleship you have no clue how that game works and it shows so continue to be a fail troll trying to get something when there is nothing.
plex does not advance any learning since skills are needed to fly, to shoot ,to use the market ,to make items ,to pretty much do anything in eve you need skills but skills are not sped up by killing or anything by fighting or crafting it takes real life time to get the skills in fact the last skill i was learning before i stopped was going to take 6 months of real life time to get the level out of it
So just to see your response to this, what about buying characters?
Lol I want to see the response too, but for now I will respond.
"Wow, that's a cool F-16 Naval Aircraft! I'm rich, so, I want one. Purchased. Now, I've never piloted anything in my life, but I have a feeling I'm going to win now".... says someone, regarding to playing the game of LIFE.
Rather cryptic, I know... but to me, that's what the view of "paying to win" sounds like when we're talking about EVE.
See how irrelevant that situation is? In all fairness, it's quite exaggerated, but the point I want to make is in there.
What does buying a jet airplane have to do with anything? Especially if you can't fly it, can't afford to fuel it for the rest of your life, don't know anyone who pilots an aircraft carrier, can't fit it into your garage, have no one to protect it for you while you're sleeping, have no one to escort you when there are dangerous groups of F-16's out there waiting to kill the losers who fly alone, and last but not least, when the objective of the game is different for each person that plays it. How can you win at all?
While I see your point, wouldn't you agree its kind of a flaw to your argument to assume that only people who don't know how to pilot your F-16 will buy one?
Lets say you spend a few thousand euro on plex and buy a fully trained character from 2003 with 95% skill points in all ships and weapons etc etc. You buy that char and now you need one of the most powerfull ships in the game.
Super carrier / Titan ?
what you gonne do with it ? Lets gank some1 !!!! with that massive MASSIVE ship you just spend a fortune of real life cash for !!!
You jump to a beacon and out of nowhere a little tiny ship appears... you try to lock on it... but it takes ages.....
then a thundersound and a big red thing lights up.... and a shitstorm of ships is on your ass... and 5 minutes later you get that delicious new pod animation...
Bye bye few thousand euro's....was fun for those few hours ^^
In short no Eve is not pay to win as this game is so socialy dependend that it doesnt matter wtf you fly, your never safe. no money in the world if going to safe your ships be it in hi-sec or null-sec.
Originally posted by Terrawen What are you going to do with all that money? Buy a bunch of stuff you can't use because it takes real time to learn skills?
Don't you have to buy ships and stuff though? Does currency just have no value in the game then?
It was my understanding the economy was all player driven, which would mean you could buy everything rather than having to find loot etc. I do realize you can't use currency to gain skills though. But paying money would give you an edge I would think over normal subscription only players.
It has been my experience with the game that even with a large sum of ISK you can still suck bad. I was with a small corp that had learned to make ISK pretty steadily and we became quite rich in a short amount of time. But that didn't help us against the low sec pirates who had learned to turn cheapie frigates into little balls of flamboyant carnage. A large amount of money in this game will just ensure you can always replace what's getting blown up over and over until you have the skills and the skill to make effective use of it.
"Wow, that's a cool F-16 Naval Aircraft! I'm rich, so, I want one. Purchased. Now, I've never piloted anything in my life, but I have a feeling I'm going to win now".... says someone, regarding to playing the game of LIFE.
Rather cryptic, I know... but to me, that's what the view of "paying to win" sounds like when we're talking about EVE.
See how irrelevant that situation is? In all fairness, it's quite exaggerated, but the point I want to make is in there.
What does buying a jet airplane have to do with anything? Especially if you can't fly it, can't afford to fuel it for the rest of your life, don't know anyone who pilots an aircraft carrier, can't fit it into your garage, have no one to protect it for you while you're sleeping, have no one to escort you when there are dangerous groups of F-16's out there waiting to kill the losers who fly alone, and last but not least, when the objective of the game is different for each person that plays it. How can you win at all?
While I see your point, wouldn't you agree its kind of a flaw to your argument to assume that only people who don't know how to pilot your F-16 will buy one?
I do agree. But then, still, even a person who 'can utilize' what they are buying with purchased ISK doesn't give them an advantage at all over someone who didn't purchase PLEX/ISK. There are multiple ways to achieve any goal in EVE, and almost none of these ways are coded or determined by the developers. So, any goal to be achieved by person A can be achieved by person B with the same amount of effort and time. If you are simply saying that because person A purchased X with their wallet, while person B cannot purchase X until they 'save the ISK for it', I can see the discrepancy, however, in terms of 'disadvantage', I don't think it applies. Let's consider that 'disadvantage' assumes that player B 'has no other option than to wait' for their ability to acquire X. This, however, is not the case. There are any number of ways that player B can acquire X without their pocketbook, and in the same amount of time (give or take, since this is hypothetical). Buying PLEX is just 1 of "1000" ways to acquire anything in EVE, and the time it takes to do so is relative, so there's really no crystal clear advantage. MANY would say that the advantage in EVE is to acquire things with as little loss as possible, including being frugal about real CA$H, ISK, time, assets, etc. So, taking this into account, many hardcore or vet EVE players would consider the person that came out of pocket for any reason to be the loser of any situation.
Originally posted by cosy
Originally posted by Fendel84M I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing...
Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.
And if it were not for people buying PLEX there would be alot less people playing the game because they can't afford an actual $15 a month for a subscription.
All that buying PLEX will do for you is fatten your wallet a little bit. It will not buy you a ship no one else can acquire, it will not advance your skill training any faster, it will not teach you how to pilot every ship in the game. If you know how to pilot every single ship in the game efficiently it still will not help you from getting blobbed on a gate camp. Remember that there is always someone stronger, better, faster, smarter than you. And if there isn't there are enough fucking retards to blob you to make up for it.
And if it were not for people buying PLEX there would be alot less people playing the game because they can't afford an actual $15 a month for a subscription.
All that buying PLEX will do for you is fatten your wallet a little bit. It will not buy you a ship no one else can acquire, it will not advance your skill training any faster, it will not teach you how to pilot every ship in the game. If you know how to pilot every single ship in the game efficiently it still will not help you from getting blobbed on a gate camp. Remember that there is always someone stronger, better, faster, smarter than you. And if there isn't there are enough fucking retards to blob you to make up for it.
-anyone that plays EVE can buy characters without spending real money.
-people that spend money to buy isk to buy characters do not have an advantage AND are not at a disadvantage. It is relative, because, as I stated earlier, the reasonable and common purchasing of PLEX even in the rare extremes does not net so much ISK that the average player does not have access to the same amount. So, someone buying a character with ISK that they earned from, let's say, a very good day of gameplay would consider themselves at an advantage over someone who had to spend part of their hard earned paycheck IRL to acquire the same pixels.
I haven't heard of any player that has ever reached the top by simply buying their way into this game. Items, cargo and ships are all volatile and represent in no way any permanent advantage in the game. You asked what happens if an experienced player paytards for PLEX - the answer is: he won't. A sucessful player will earn 500M isk faster and with less effort than he earns $20 in real life. Heck, lots of people throw out 500m ISK at new players at times...
ISK is not "winning" in eve. If you can't afford to buy a particular item/ship it usually means you're not qualified to be using it. If you try to bypass the isk check via PLEX you will only meet tears. Buying plex would be a definity pay2win in many other games out there, but this one isn't nearly as linear or as simple as you make it to be. Eve is not a game where you buy n+1 gear tier and your character becomes stronger in absolute terms.There are many more factors involved and progress is neither permanent or absolute in this game.
I'll make this very simple for you:
1. plex is only a reasonable amount of isk when you are not a strong player already
2. if said player relies on plex to advance in game he will only meet tears due to flying around things he's not supposed to (and lose real $ cash)
3. for an established player in this game, plex does not generate a very meaningful source of isk compared to $ spent. plex now turns eve into a f2p game for him.
4. Fact: the best advantage a player can buy for PLEX are multiple accounts. This is what every longtime player will tell you.
I've never heard of any sucessful players relying on paytarding to get their way up into this game.
It may be somewhat pay2win in the sense that you can pick your wallet and buy something in the game but you're forgetting that you're also benefiting someone else (that can't afford to pay). In the end, you're not obtaining an absolute advantage, it's basically just another transaction where both parties have their benefit, hence both you and someone else are getting what they want in-game. The paying player isn't the only one getting an "advantage" here. plex is also not guaranteed insta stable conversion proft as it's reliant on supply/demand. There is only a certain amount of plex needed a month for the playerbase afteral.
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.
By your definition, bowling is pay to win because people can buy wrist braces.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok work outhow much real money it will cost you to own 350 billiob isk.... Then ask your self why players form alliances with thousands of players so they just so they can own some space. And think for one momment at the cost required to to set up and run just 5 structures in eve in deep null sec... Im relling you that venture alone will set you back a good 3 billion isk. And thats concidered nothing and is a requirement if you join an alliance..
Also unlike wow which is probably where your from.. You can loose everything at the drop of a hat. You dont get sets of armour in eve and if you did a team of 5 noobs can strip your isk away from you over time with relative ease...
Isk is not impprtant in eve.. The players are. With outfriebds no amount of isk is win.
Stop speculating on something thats much too complex for your mind todigest. And just play the game.. Buying plex will help you and only you. You cannot buy enough plex to make an impact as others already have it... Also if you dont have the skill points you are limited to what you can buy ..m. So!!!!
Comments
Like I said earlier, pay to win is a really black and white term. I did say that it's more likely something along the lines of pay to compete or pay to keep up, which you did clarify there. More importantly, if you die a few times in a row, you can spend awhile farming missions for ISK or whatever you do, or you can PLEX yourself. Is plexing yourself saving you time? Yes. Is that an advantage? Yes. Is it pay to win? Definitely not.
Did I say somewhere in my post that this is not true? I don't understand your response considering you quoted that whole reply, especially because we aren't disagreeing on this lol
Is the OP's issue that he thinks no one is paying for it?
You can have a pay to win game without an in game store. Saying that it is a term strictly for f2p games is a little narrow minded. I mean, probably anyone here except for you apparently could think of a situation in which a p2p game could be p2w as well. Get some imagination.
It was a misread on my part. I wasn't really trying to argue with you, just clarifying. Nothing to see here people, move along =P
Yes! Eve is Pay to Win!
I was just talking about this recently with a friend.
I feel it is the greediest pay to win game I've ever played.
You can purchase unlimited amount of Plex for real money, so if you wanted you could buy anything.
But what about the argument you need to train in real time to learn skills? All you have to do is pay your monthly subscription, login occasionally to train skills, and with enough time ( and subscription fees) have any skill you want. You never even have to leave a space station to learn those skills. They suck as much money out of you in monthly fees as possible. While in other games, like Age of Wushu, you have to get experience to train those skills, not train those skills by just paying a monthly subscription.
How can anyone try to justify this game not being pay to win? It is no better than any other pay to win game out there and in many ways it is worse because they suck as much money as possible in monthly fees along the journey.
You have to love the hypocrisy of the MMO community.
I understand where you're coming from. I also see how in an EXTREME situation, someone might find this 'barely' distressing. But really, you seem highly bothered by all this, and I just don't see why you would, unless you've never played the game for any length of time. If that's the case, nothing wrong with that, just sounds like it may be a misunderstanding about the economy in all it's complexity and chaotic intricacy.
That being said, because of the fact that there is virtually no rules in how to acquire ISK in EVE, you should try to look at it from a different angle than 'does plex save you time? yes." because that is also very situation based..
There are players that earn far more ISK from in-game mechanics than a PLEX can get them in less time that it costs to pull out a credit card to buy the PLEX and then sell it on the market. It's just one of the avenues available for players to earn currency so they can throw the currency back into the economy and let it swim around.
Is it fair that a clever person can scam billions of ISK out of another player in seconds?
Does scamming save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
Does piracy save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
Does being smarter than the other guy save time? Yes. Is it an advantage? Yes.
In the end, these are just a few things that ultimately will prove to net more ISK than buying PLEX does.
aww did the fail troll hit a nerve , there is no pay to win in eve plex gives tho who dont want to spend 15 bucks a month to play for free , sure you can spend all your real cash in buying them , the only game you will win at is the market game since everything in the game is just about player made , but but you can buy ships.
um sure you can buy ships but that's not the question, can you fly them? that is the question and the answer is no you cant , took me months to get the skill to fly my largest ship took friends of mine YEARS to fly what they have took even longer to fly the stealth class frigates then my battleship you have no clue how that game works and it shows so continue to be a fail troll trying to get something when there is nothing.
plex does not advance any learning since skills are needed to fly, to shoot ,to use the market ,to make items ,to pretty much do anything in eve you need skills but skills are not sped up by killing or anything by fighting or crafting it takes real life time to get the skills in fact the last skill i was learning before i stopped was going to take 6 months of real life time to get the level out of it
While I agree with most of your points, I could argue that PLEX is more of a sure fire way to make money. Most of the ways you could make money in less time that it would take me to pull out my credit card would involve extreme luck and timing. PLEX will always be there with no risk. I'm not bothered by this at all, just talking to people on the internet. I don't think I've expressed any real emotion at all about it either way.
not true i haven't payed anything in years yet i keep getting come back for so many days to check this out offers and when i do i get on set a skill then log off you don't need a sub
I think I understand the general message you're trying to convey. I could be wrong though.
So just to see your response to this, what about buying characters?
Lol I want to see the response too, but for now I will respond.
"Wow, that's a cool F-16 Naval Aircraft! I'm rich, so, I want one. Purchased. Now, I've never piloted anything in my life, but I have a feeling I'm going to win now".... says someone, regarding to playing the game of LIFE.
Rather cryptic, I know... but to me, that's what the view of "paying to win" sounds like when we're talking about EVE.
See how irrelevant that situation is? In all fairness, it's quite exaggerated, but the point I want to make is in there.
What does buying a jet airplane have to do with anything? Especially if you can't fly it, can't afford to fuel it for the rest of your life, don't know anyone who pilots an aircraft carrier, can't fit it into your garage, have no one to protect it for you while you're sleeping, have no one to escort you when there are dangerous groups of F-16's out there waiting to kill the losers who fly alone, and last but not least, when the objective of the game is different for each person that plays it. How can you win at all?
BestSigEver :P
While I see your point, wouldn't you agree its kind of a flaw to your argument to assume that only people who don't know how to pilot your F-16 will buy one?
The buyer of plex is buying convenience not power.
Lets say you spend a few thousand euro on plex and buy a fully trained character from 2003 with 95% skill points in all ships and weapons etc etc.
You buy that char and now you need one of the most powerfull ships in the game.
Super carrier / Titan ?
what you gonne do with it ?
Lets gank some1 !!!! with that massive MASSIVE ship you just spend a fortune of real life cash for !!!
You jump to a beacon
and out of nowhere a little tiny ship appears...
you try to lock on it...
but it takes ages.....
then a thundersound and a big red thing lights up....
and a shitstorm of ships is on your ass...
and 5 minutes later you get that delicious new pod animation...
Bye bye few thousand euro's....was fun for those few hours ^^
In short no Eve is not pay to win as this game is so socialy dependend that it doesnt matter wtf you fly, your never safe.
no money in the world if going to safe your ships be it in hi-sec or null-sec.
Money doesnt talk in Eve, numbers will
It has been my experience with the game that even with a large sum of ISK you can still suck bad. I was with a small corp that had learned to make ISK pretty steadily and we became quite rich in a short amount of time. But that didn't help us against the low sec pirates who had learned to turn cheapie frigates into little balls of flamboyant carnage. A large amount of money in this game will just ensure you can always replace what's getting blown up over and over until you have the skills and the skill to make effective use of it.
I do agree. But then, still, even a person who 'can utilize' what they are buying with purchased ISK doesn't give them an advantage at all over someone who didn't purchase PLEX/ISK. There are multiple ways to achieve any goal in EVE, and almost none of these ways are coded or determined by the developers. So, any goal to be achieved by person A can be achieved by person B with the same amount of effort and time. If you are simply saying that because person A purchased X with their wallet, while person B cannot purchase X until they 'save the ISK for it', I can see the discrepancy, however, in terms of 'disadvantage', I don't think it applies. Let's consider that 'disadvantage' assumes that player B 'has no other option than to wait' for their ability to acquire X. This, however, is not the case. There are any number of ways that player B can acquire X without their pocketbook, and in the same amount of time (give or take, since this is hypothetical). Buying PLEX is just 1 of "1000" ways to acquire anything in EVE, and the time it takes to do so is relative, so there's really no crystal clear advantage. MANY would say that the advantage in EVE is to acquire things with as little loss as possible, including being frugal about real CA$H, ISK, time, assets, etc. So, taking this into account, many hardcore or vet EVE players would consider the person that came out of pocket for any reason to be the loser of any situation.
ROFL~! Exaaaaaaaactllllyyyyy!!!
Buying PLEX is not P2W in any sense of the term.
And if it were not for people buying PLEX there would be alot less people playing the game because they can't afford an actual $15 a month for a subscription.
All that buying PLEX will do for you is fatten your wallet a little bit. It will not buy you a ship no one else can acquire, it will not advance your skill training any faster, it will not teach you how to pilot every ship in the game. If you know how to pilot every single ship in the game efficiently it still will not help you from getting blobbed on a gate camp. Remember that there is always someone stronger, better, faster, smarter than you. And if there isn't there are enough fucking retards to blob you to make up for it.
You can buy characters though =P
you buy characters with ISK. So
-anyone that plays EVE can buy characters without spending real money.
-people that spend money to buy isk to buy characters do not have an advantage AND are not at a disadvantage. It is relative, because, as I stated earlier, the reasonable and common purchasing of PLEX even in the rare extremes does not net so much ISK that the average player does not have access to the same amount. So, someone buying a character with ISK that they earned from, let's say, a very good day of gameplay would consider themselves at an advantage over someone who had to spend part of their hard earned paycheck IRL to acquire the same pixels.
I haven't heard of any player that has ever reached the top by simply buying their way into this game. Items, cargo and ships are all volatile and represent in no way any permanent advantage in the game. You asked what happens if an experienced player paytards for PLEX - the answer is: he won't. A sucessful player will earn 500M isk faster and with less effort than he earns $20 in real life. Heck, lots of people throw out 500m ISK at new players at times...
ISK is not "winning" in eve. If you can't afford to buy a particular item/ship it usually means you're not qualified to be using it. If you try to bypass the isk check via PLEX you will only meet tears. Buying plex would be a definity pay2win in many other games out there, but this one isn't nearly as linear or as simple as you make it to be. Eve is not a game where you buy n+1 gear tier and your character becomes stronger in absolute terms.There are many more factors involved and progress is neither permanent or absolute in this game.
I'll make this very simple for you:
1. plex is only a reasonable amount of isk when you are not a strong player already
2. if said player relies on plex to advance in game he will only meet tears due to flying around things he's not supposed to (and lose real $ cash)
3. for an established player in this game, plex does not generate a very meaningful source of isk compared to $ spent. plex now turns eve into a f2p game for him.
4. Fact: the best advantage a player can buy for PLEX are multiple accounts. This is what every longtime player will tell you.
I've never heard of any sucessful players relying on paytarding to get their way up into this game.
It may be somewhat pay2win in the sense that you can pick your wallet and buy something in the game but you're forgetting that you're also benefiting someone else (that can't afford to pay). In the end, you're not obtaining an absolute advantage, it's basically just another transaction where both parties have their benefit, hence both you and someone else are getting what they want in-game. The paying player isn't the only one getting an "advantage" here. plex is also not guaranteed insta stable conversion proft as it's reliant on supply/demand. There is only a certain amount of plex needed a month for the playerbase afteral.
EVE is pay2lose for people stupid enough to do it.
Gank rules in EVE. Unless you can afford to pay 3000 people to play, you won't break the status quo in EVE using money.
By your definition, bowling is pay to win because people can buy wrist braces.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Also unlike wow which is probably where your from.. You can loose everything at the drop of a hat. You dont get sets of armour in eve and if you did a team of 5 noobs can strip your isk away from you over time with relative ease...
Isk is not impprtant in eve.. The players are. With outfriebds no amount of isk is win.
Stop speculating on something thats much too complex for your mind todigest. And just play the game.. Buying plex will help you and only you. You cannot buy enough plex to make an impact as others already have it... Also if you dont have the skill points you are limited to what you can buy
..m. So!!!!
No not insta win not even close.