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Originally posted by Fendel84M Originally posted by Yamota Originally posted by Fendel84M I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing... Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.
Eve is probably the most monetized MMORPG out there. You can buy EVERYTHING with real money, including high skilled characters in their own character bazaar.
The fact that Eve is so much more than just your characters skills and items does not change that fact.
So saying Eve is a successful sub game isn't 100% true then. There's a lot of monetization outside of a base subscription it seems.
Technically there is, but if you ask any experienced player what they would do with a surplus of $ every month and 9 out of 10 they will all tell you they'd spend it on alt accounts instead. The amount of ISK you get for selling plex isn't that high, or sells that fast. I also believe there is a restriction on how many PLEX you can purchase from 1 account but I'm not sure.
Say whatever you need to make you feel better about liking/hating EVE. It is what it is. You can buy plex for ingame currency to buy almost anything. Can you use what you bought well (to make you "win") is an another beast altogether. You can also earn ingame currency to buy Plex for more game time effectively making the game free-to-play.
You take that and justify whichever view best suits your stance and leave it at that. Had you even tried the free trial you'd have come to your own conclusion of how the economy works and whether it's for you or not.
Simply seems like you have an agenda here that doesn't really inquire but tries to pigeon hole an attitude towards EVE. GL to you all the same. BTW, I no longer play and not because of its subscription or its 'cash shop'.
The most precious and powerful commodity in Eve isn't ISK - it's time.
It takes time to become the most powerful person in Eve. The most powerful person in Eve is The Mittani without any doubt whatsoever.
It must have taken a lot of time and dedication to do this.
ISK is potentially infinite. However, time is not - time is a limited resource - we eventually run out of it and die.
So the question that the OP should be asking is: "Do I really want to be the 'best' (most powerful) in Eve, or is my passion in life something else?"
At best, an infinite amount of ISK might get you to become one of The Mittani's leutenants, but only a massive expense of time would make you more powerful than The Mittani.
Originally posted by Fendel84M I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing... Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.
People are paying £9.99 pm and it has a busy server so for them to be charging a monthly subscription and people are willing to pay it I would say you answered your own question.
Seems pretty straightforward to me; once you have levelled up the skills you need to utilize the best ship for your specific goal, if you have also accumulated the currency required to obtain said ship, then it’s not pay to win. If however by the point you have all the skills you need you have not been able to get enough currency, then buying it with real money would indeed be pay to win.
I don’t play Eve so I can’t say either way.
the first time I logged in, I felt that it was. Being able to use real money to buy ISK, and then selling it for in game currency was something i was very much against. That was years ago.
I play Wushu now, like EVE, sure you can get RL cash into the game, but if you think that's gonna let/make you win, your in for a long expensive bumpy ride.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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There is no "winning" at EVE.
If you set yourself certain goals, then yes, buying plex may bring you closer to them in some cases. But the PLEX sellers are overwhelmingly guys with too little in game time who don't want to spend that precious time doing an activity they consider boring (making isk), so they make a little financial buffer for themselves. That keeps them sane and playing and enables others to be able to shoot at them, which they gladly do.
One can even say both sides are winning!
I think some people also forget that Eve is a free market economy. You put 1000 plex on market a once and you still have to wait for people to buy them. I can also guarantee you it will drop the value of plex on market . So, you won't even be getting 500m isk for each of them.
The most valuable thing in Eve is TRUST.
Originally posted by Strana I think some people also forget that Eve is a free market economy. You put 1000 plex on market a once and you still have to wait for people to buy them. I can also guarantee you it will drop the value of plex on market . So, you won't even be getting 500m isk for each of them. The most valuable thing in Eve is TRUST.
No - the most precious commodity in Eve is time - as it is in real life.
In other words, the time you actually spend playing the game - not time logged off while gathering skill points.
For example, trust takes time to build up.
Ability takes practice and this is far more a product of time than innate skill. (Just like passing exams in real life.)
PLEX was developed as CCP's solution to fighting the rampant gold farmers that were aparent in EVE.
Go back a few years and a vast majority of 0.6+ empire space was completely mined out and the price of high sec ores & minerals was seriously devalued. This caused newer players to struggle making money from mining, forcing them to risk more dangerous ventures. Gold Farmers advertised gold in every channel and it was becoming quite a problem.
As selling gold was prohibited it still happened, and it had an averse effect on the game world. Lets face it, it was going to happen, no matter what CCP did, so why shouldnt they take a piece of the cut, and be able to control it so the economy isnt ruined.
With the introduction of PLEX, people who have lots of isk, but no IRL money have an ingame cashsink and players who have money but no time can keep playing whilst keeping money going into CCP's bank account. Benefit.
Gold farmers found business more difficult as players would rather use legitimate means, where their account wont get banned. Bye bye gold farmers.
Mining in highsec is now much easier, profits from high sec ores & minerals have improved, thus improving new players seeking to be miners. No more gold ads. CCP can also track the income and ougoings of Isk.
As for whether owning bills of isk is pay to win, it seriously isnt. Surviving in EVE isnt about having the biggest, bestest fastest ship. Its learning how and when you should fight. If an opponent has the tip off on you, he can go back to a station, refit to something that will easily beat you (ie with jammers, short range/long range weapons, anti missile/resists/hardeners etc). There is no setup to win them all, and ive seen new players absolutely destroyer older players merely becuase they had the intel and smart configurations.
Originally posted by Fendel84M Originally posted by Terrawen What are you going to do with all that money? Buy a bunch of stuff you can't use because it takes real time to learn skills?
Don't you have to buy ships and stuff though? Does currency just have no value in the game then?
It was my understanding the economy was all player driven, which would mean you could buy everything rather than having to find loot etc. I do realize you can't use currency to gain skills though. But paying money would give you an edge I would think over normal subscription only players.
You've accomplished several things, none of which are 'paying to win' or 'getting an edge'.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What does player skill have to do with a game being pay to win or not ? World of tanks was called pay to win because it used to sell gold ammo that you couldn't get without real money. It didn't matter if the guy buying it was retarded and couldn't hit anything and had no clue how to play. He was buying an advantage someone not spending real money couldn't get.
The thread is a moot point though. all p2p games by their very nature have always been pay to win. A free player can't even play and you've always been able to buy "gold" in sub game. People only get upset now because it's the company that made the game that's getting the money not some faceless asian farming one.
Originally posted by Fendel84M Originally posted by Raunu In Eve, money does not = power. Yes, you will have the money to buy whatever ships you want, but you need more than just the ship to be powerful. You need the skills necessary to fly the ship well, the skills to use whatever weapons you equip the ship with, the skills to you whatever defensive mods you put on the ship and so forth. All of those skills take time to acquire and train. There is no one ship that's better than all the others. Each ship and class of ship has its own pros and cons. Small ships, while faster, aren't as heavily armored or armed. Larger ships aren't as fast, and also have trouble tracking and hitting the small faster ships. So it's entirely possible for people who have their skills trained to higher levels in a smaller class of ship to destroy a larger class of ship. Plus, there is the fact that money is easy to come by, in Eve. You can join corps that give you free ships and will replace your ship when yours gets destroyed during any corporation related event. Even just going through the beginning quests gives you a bunch of different ships.
Then why do people even bother selling plex? Just laziness? It also seems weird that a sandbox game wouldn't have in game currency that is more valuable. I would think the economy would be an important thing.
Some people do not like to do anything but PvP. PvP can be a very costly endeavor. Loss of just one ship might take a billion or more to replace.
Originally posted by DamonVile What does player skill have to do with a game being pay to win or not ? World of tanks was called pay to win because it used to sell gold ammo that you couldn't get without real money. It didn't matter if the guy buying it was retarded and couldn't hit anything and had no clue how to play. He was buying an advantage someone not spending real money couldn't get. The thread is a moot point though. all p2p games by their very nature have always been pay to win. A free player can't even play and you've always been able to buy "gold" in sub game. People only get upset now because it's the company that made the game that's getting the money not some faceless asian farming one.
Just how are P2P/Sub games P2W? One still has to grind dungeons, raids, faction, tokens, ect ect that one cannot simpley "P2W."
Not in the slightest. One still has to do MONTHS of skill training. While you might be able to buy the top ship it is by no means permament as a noob can easily lose it to a vastly inferior ship but who is a veteran. All it does is give you a lump of ISK to play with. Not to mention if you buy a super "leet" ship people will be all over you like GIs on a prostitute and will be nothing more that a "shiney" in your hanger if your afraid to take the risk of losing all that ISK or $$$ you spend to get that ISK.
Starting off it might be like ZOMG!!! I'm RICH!!! but after time in game, learning the skills you want, have a good corp that ISK is more "meh." More so since many easily have multiple accounts through buying plex on the market.
why not actually play the game before making threads like this? all questions would be answered within the first 15 minutes of gameplay.
and there is a free trial afaik.
Originally posted by Hokie Well technically Terrawen he could use all that isk to purchase a character and then still not know how to play the game. What Im trying to say and what a lot of other EVE players will say. Is there is no winning in EVE, because EVE has no end game.
Well i don't know about no winning in EVE, considering the game is based on control of territory.
I remember the E-bay Jedi from SWG-PreCu. They had the same problem of not knowing how to play the character they just bought.
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you can become crazy rich with only buying PLEX and lots of people do it in order to avoid jobs to get ISK....
BUT, in eve ISK only gets you the ship and the equipment... which means, if you don't have the skills trained to drive that ship - you wasted ISK on nothing useful, also if you encounter a player, who didn't just buy the most expencive ship he can get and decided to venture out in space, and is way better than you - you'll feel like a turtle on it's back
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Originally posted by XxGrimmxX First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.
Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win. Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it? You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly. And no..people with money have no advantage - zero. I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK. They actually buy Plex for game time.
There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none. There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions. Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players. That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.
I've put in about 1000 dollars into EVE. Sold most of the PLEX and have so much money that I suicide gank people in cheap ships in high sec lol. And I don't care if I die at all, cause I have so much ISK that I can buy pretty much anything that I fly. I tend to stick to frigates and cruisers though...I like the smaller ships for ganking people. In other space games, I do way better in small ships.
In other words, usually suicide ganking is very much worth it...if you can afford to lose some. I ganked a miner (he was using one of the industrial ships to mine...don't ask me.) in high sec and got like 10 mill ISK from him lol in just cargo. So generally, I earn a lot more than I lose...but not always. But I usually fly cheap, but effective ships...so even if I lose some, its very easy to get it back or sell a couple PLEXes