My favourite type of combat lies in skyrim and m&b warband. These are single player rpgs though. If we are to see a working similar combat system in an mmo it would take lot lot of effort from their side and also to surpass theirselfs with server capabilities and networking codes etc .I dont know if they can do it.
On the other hand i wouldnt have a problem to play with tab targeting wow style system as long its not exactly the same. They must find a way to make tab system more tactical and more intresting than the usual combat systems we ve seen so far. How? its up to them..there are ways things like counter attacks, combo moves etc .
I was also discussing with a friend the other day an idea about a wow/eq combat system where each player every 3 secs can perform one move and beetween the timer he can only move around till his timer comes back ,but in such a way that the player watch a nice horography of nicely designed of parry,block,hits,dodges that the player enjoys watching each time every single combat that he does.In such a system the player arrange his movement in the battlefield according to what he has in mind to perform as his next move,depending how many enemies he battles change stances etc etc thats something we havent seen so far and seems to be a quite tactical system which i wish someday to see in an mmorpg.
Point is that, every system needs to work out well anwy and to be build around it in such a way that it actually works smooth and that is fun for the players.
This is really the wrong place to ask this sort of question, I really hope the devs don't mistake this poll for general gamer consensus. Unfortunately, the majority of people on this forum are stuck in the past and prefer the old traditional auto-attack based system - and this obviously shows in the polls. It's time to take the nostalgia goggles off people.
The fact is, A LOT of people don't play mmo's because they just find them to be plain boring, and combat is a HUGE factor. Most of my friends comment on how boring and unintuitive mmo combat is when they see me playing. There is nothing intuitive about auto-attacks, random dice rolls, and hand-holding tab targeting. Playing Simon Says with 30+ skills and 8 hotbars is NOT my idea of a natural feeling combat system.
Action combat isn't only about "twitching" and "reflexes". You have to adapt to every situation by taking full control of your character, aiming attacks, dodging, mobility, attacking when needed. Sitting and watching your character whack away in auto-attack is not fun, people want full control of their character. And there is nothing more disappointing then having every single long-ranged attack home in on your character without any chance of dodge - this needs to be changed asap.
Yeah, its real pressuring and nerve racking when in Neverwinter/Tera/WildStar there is a giant big red warning of a crater on the ground "BRO, PLEASE GET OUT OF THE WAY, BRO, PLEASE" and then 5 seconds later they throw out a super laggy attack. And they always teach you that dodge roll mechanic that you dont even need, you can just walk away or around of the big RED CIRCLE OF DOOM WARNING.
Incase it wasn't clear enough, that was sarcasm. I have yet to be impressed by action combat in MMORPG's. Not saying it sucks, just not impressed. If action combat is back, I dont want to see the red warning crater of bro please move within 5 seconds. Also there are legitimate flaws in the combat like in Neverwinter. Neverwinter's combat is not good.
Tab targetting with "unlimited" hotbar support (WoW/EQ) - 57.1%
Looking at the poll now that it has had time to mature, action combat of some form is well over 50% combined.
Regarding big red circles... I agree. If it is a telegraphed attack that needs to be avoided, surely this can be done with animations and spell effects, rather than stupidly obvious red circles.
The one and only thing that could get me to not play this game is the combat (and maybe the inclusion of corpse runs...). I can't believe some people are still stuck in the past, and enjoy tab-targeting.
Not just some over one third by this poll and the real number is likely to be higher.
Having 8 hotbars doesn't eqate to skill or strategy. The person who keybinds best, and has the mouse with the most buttons will always win. There's nothing gimmicky about FPS/twitch mechanics, the problem is that so many titles try to implement a good "action combat" system and fail because of past limitations, and the delusion that strategy and skill are mutually exclusive. If executed correctly, complex aggro, CC, skill-chaining, and positional systems can coexist with targeting reticles. I'm starting to believe that you're all just so horrible at skill-based games, that you're afraid you'll no longer be competitive if skill enters the equation.
While I am happy to grant you that "8 hotbars doesn't eqate to skill or strategy" I refuse to accept that "action combat" actually demonstrates anything but better reflexes and lower lag times.
This debate's occurred millions of times before. If the devs are going to read this thread, I'm sure it won't be the first time they contemplate these ideas. The one thing that's been consistent through the years is that there's really only one good reason to opt for a keyboard based combat system, and that's latency. I think we've reached the point where that's no longer a factor.
Only if you live in North America, my lag time (for example) is over 300ms this is typical for anyone playing from Oceania.
In any case I prefer stats based tab targeting systems because it means that my Iksar Ranger plays differently to my Wood Elf Ranger. In a Role Playing game I still prefer the character and not the player to be the important thing.
Imagine a franchise like Elder Scrolls where the combat was replaced with tab-targeting. Say what you will about the sub-par combat of Skyrim, but the game you'd end up with would not only be a boring and skill-less, but you forget to consider how less immersive it would be. As mentioned, "action-combat" is far more intuitive and immersive, and that's far more important to me than different races playing differently. That's why I play games in the first place, to get immersed in another world. That being said, there's no reason why race can't make a difference in a skill-based combat system. There's movement speed, swing speed, base damage with different types of weapons etc.... Now if they want every class/race combination to be balanced, we're going to run into a problem, but I hope the developers aren't that short-sighted.
To get back on the point of immersion, and bring up a previous point in the blending of strategy and skill; Imagine a world where a volley of arrows was a viable method to defend a keep. This is an example of both strategy and teamwork (coordinated aim-height, and shot force), in a skill based system. The engine currently allows it, but obviously we haven't seen it yet, since there are no slow-moving projectiles that aren't self-propelled in PS2, but the fact remains, there's a physics engine, and unlimited possibilities because of it.
If EQNext is truly going to be revolutionary, it's got to get combat right. It'll have to have all the great concepts of games past (aggro system, CC, and most importantly skill chains), and combine it with the genre's effort to implement more intuitive and immersive 'aimed' combat.
This is really the wrong place to ask this sort of question, I really hope the devs don't mistake this poll for general gamer consensus. Unfortunately, the majority of people on this forum are stuck in the past and prefer the old traditional auto-attack based system - and this obviously shows in the polls. It's time to take the nostalgia goggles off people.
The fact is, A LOT of people don't play mmo's because they just find them to be plain boring, and combat is a HUGE factor. Most of my friends comment on how boring and unintuitive mmo combat is when they see me playing. There is nothing intuitive about auto-attacks, random dice rolls, and hand-holding tab targeting. Playing Simon Says with 30+ skills and 8 hotbars is NOT my idea of a natural feeling combat system.
Action combat isn't only about "twitching" and "reflexes". You have to adapt to every situation by taking full control of your character, aiming attacks, dodging, mobility, attacking when needed. Sitting and watching your character whack away in auto-attack is not fun, people want full control of their character. And there is nothing more disappointing then having every single long-ranged attack home in on your character without any chance of dodge - this needs to be changed asap.
Yeah, its real pressuring and nerve racking when in Neverwinter/Tera/WildStar there is a giant big red warning of a crater on the ground "BRO, PLEASE GET OUT OF THE WAY, BRO, PLEASE" and then 5 seconds later they throw out a super laggy attack. And they always teach you that dodge roll mechanic that you dont even need, you can just walk away or around of the big RED CIRCLE OF DOOM WARNING.
Incase it wasn't clear enough, that was sarcasm. I have yet to be impressed by action combat in MMORPG's. Not saying it sucks, just not impressed. If action combat is back, I dont want to see the red warning crater of bro please move within 5 seconds. Also there are legitimate flaws in the combat like in Neverwinter. Neverwinter's combat is not good.
I definitely agree, I don't want a hand-holding combat design. Although the games you mentioned aren't perfect, it's a step in the right direction. I just don't think that getting stuck in the past with traditional combat is the answer.
If they want the combat to be more reminiscent to single-player action games, then why not have similar mechanics? I don't need need red circles in single player games so I definitely wouldn't need them in MMO's.
What I 'want' wasn't listed so I selected 'none'. I have been partial to the unlimited tab targeting for quite some time, but then I realized there must be a way or system that would provide multi-targets. So, with that said, I want a new kind of system: multi-target selection, unlimited classification.
Let me explain ...
When I cast a targeted AE spell in a group of 5 mobs that only hits 4, I want to be able to control who this spell hits. A multi-target system would provide a solution to this. For melee, this is a bit dumbed down ... meaning - when I swing a sword that is bigger than a tree in a lateral motion to hit two mobs in front of me, I want to hit both mobs. Not hit the one I have targeted and mysteriously miss the second. A melee multi target system would allow a pre-defined kill sequence, or, a priority sequence for debuff chains... so many options!
My favorite MMO combat was Darkfall Archery and Magic casting, but my least favorite was Darkfall melee combat. I'm not sure they can reconcile the types of combat, but that was the most fun I've had. Melee shouldn't be a hop fest.
I love tab target games too though, so it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.
Aiming is fun, it makes the game seem somehow connected for me, but then tab targeting opens up so much strategy related to skill selection that I love that too. I'm not sure you could mix both, but I like the idea for archery or magic. Like, grab a poisoned arrow or a spelled arrow even. Click the type of attack you want the way you would a spell, and then aim that.
melee on the other hand I've never played an action based melee game that I enjoyed in MMO's. I liked mortal combat, that's as close as I get. On the other hand I do like melee with tab target.
What I 'want' wasn't listed so I selected 'none'. I have been partial to the unlimited tab targeting for quite some time, but then I realized there must be a way or system that would provide multi-targets. So, with that said, I want a new kind of system: multi-target selection, unlimited classification.
Let me explain ...
When I cast a targeted AE spell in a group of 5 mobs that only hits 4, I want to be able to control who this spell hits. A multi-target system would provide a solution to this. For melee, this is a bit dumbed down ... meaning - when I swing a sword that is bigger than a tree in a lateral motion to hit two mobs in front of me, I want to hit both mobs. Not hit the one I have targeted and mysteriously miss the second. A melee multi target system would allow a pre-defined kill sequence, or, a priority sequence for debuff chains... so many options!
so why not just do away with tab targetting all together. its pretty simple, action combat if your projectile or sword makes contact with it, it hits it....why the hell do we need to tab target to a person and then wait for an RNG to tell us if we hit it or not? are people really that inept they cant aim? and why would u not want to aim? it provides so much more immersion
I'd prefer the combat take a back seat in favor of the rest of the game basically. I'd like a slower paced, more tactical combat without 70 skills on 7 hotbars to juggle. I liked EQ1 combat as a tank, more about positioning, controlling aggro, adds and push than button mashing. I don't think I've seen an MMO still that's had that push mechanic you had to watch out for or you'd push it right into another patch of mobs.
Just something where I don't feel like I'd die if I need to type a quick instruction to my group.
I voted other, and this is it.
Forum Post count does not = Game Intelligence or Knowledge it just shows how often people like to talk.
Originally posted by Vorthanion Action combat gives me headaches and carpal tunnel syndrome. I will always opt for slower paced combat for those reasons as well as my preference for the importance of character stats over twitch and my preference to play my avatar, not my reflexes.
/agree
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
What I 'want' wasn't listed so I selected 'none'. I have been partial to the unlimited tab targeting for quite some time, but then I realized there must be a way or system that would provide multi-targets. So, with that said, I want a new kind of system: multi-target selection, unlimited classification.
Let me explain ...
When I cast a targeted AE spell in a group of 5 mobs that only hits 4, I want to be able to control who this spell hits. A multi-target system would provide a solution to this. For melee, this is a bit dumbed down ... meaning - when I swing a sword that is bigger than a tree in a lateral motion to hit two mobs in front of me, I want to hit both mobs. Not hit the one I have targeted and mysteriously miss the second. A melee multi target system would allow a pre-defined kill sequence, or, a priority sequence for debuff chains... so many options!
so why not just do away with tab targetting all together. its pretty simple, action combat if your projectile or sword makes contact with it, it hits it....why the hell do we need to tab target to a person and then wait for an RNG to tell us if we hit it or not? are people really that inept they cant aim? and why would u not want to aim? it provides so much more immersion
If it was pure action based, I agree what you said would work very well. I tend to not like the extremely fast cooldown action implementation though, you can't do much else but hit keys non-stop.
Melee and spells are different in this regard. Melee works perfectly with the pure action model, spells are a bit different only because they are ranged, and don't have collision to interact with their target.
I was speaking of a melded system, since not every ability would be an AOE ability. But, if you wanted to cast a spell that was supposed to hit 3 mobs, in my ideal system you'd have to select 3 - or, fall back to selecting one and having RNG select the other two. If that wasn't part of the system, then RNG would come into play and auto-select 3 mobs around a certain target.
So many times I had been casting tigir's on a shaman in EQ1 that only hits 4 mobs and it auto-selects the ones I don't need to slow yet. Would have been nice to say 'slow only the melee mobs, not the casters!'.
WIth that said, the game shouldn't really rely upon targeted AOE abilities, so I'm very much more partial to action based combat, just with some small modifications.
I really like the combat system in Neverwinter even tho I hate the people that made the game. giving you the ability to work with what you have and make important choices about which abilities to use.
I believe I'm not the only one here who really just doesn't mind long as I can dodge, block, and my sword has to connect the player.
I voted for GW2 but really would have voted for the others except WoW/EQ style or any other tab target combat style.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I can't really say NWO as example, because I think NWO combat is very unresponsive. It's combat animations lock you into place, which is very noticable on my guardian. And the blocking takes too much time, you can't do any 'last moment' blocking. So if you are used to games that require fast reaction times, NWO feels annoyingly slow.
I don't hate tab based per se. But most tab based combat is very boring for me. GW1 was one of the few games where I liked the tab based combat imo, mainly because it had these very fast responding interrupt skills on Mesmer and Ranger. Also loved knockdown warrior in that game, I also liked the limited hotbar support that forced you to create builds for different situations.
I am not a fan of WoW in general, but I really liked the responsiveness of WoW combat. Although needing half a screen for hotbars is silly imo. I can do without that. But any game dev should set WoW's combat responsiveness as example imo.
My favorite MMO combat was Darkfall Archery and Magic casting, but my least favorite was Darkfall melee combat. I'm not sure they can reconcile the types of combat, but that was the most fun I've had. Melee shouldn't be a hop fest.
I love tab target games too though, so it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.
Aiming is fun, it makes the game seem somehow connected for me, but then tab targeting opens up so much strategy related to skill selection that I love that too. I'm not sure you could mix both, but I like the idea for archery or magic. Like, grab a poisoned arrow or a spelled arrow even. Click the type of attack you want the way you would a spell, and then aim that.
melee on the other hand I've never played an action based melee game that I enjoyed in MMO's. I liked mortal combat, that's as close as I get. On the other hand I do like melee with tab target.
Melee can be good in the first person view point if done correctly, Chivalry has shown that. However, I think it would be possible to have a hybrid system where you are in first person with ranged and third person with melee. It could also be possible to have an aiming-tab target hybrid where some things like a healing spell or a damage over time spell could be tab target while something like a bow or fireball could be aimed. So anything that instantly travels to the target would be tab target while things that have a travel time and can be dodged or blocked are aimed.
I still prefer the EQ combat.. I am sooo tired of having 6 or more hotbars lined up with abilities / potions / mounts..ect. Just give me a single hotbar with 6-9 slots and I would be happy.
Comments
My favourite type of combat lies in skyrim and m&b warband. These are single player rpgs though. If we are to see a working similar combat system in an mmo it would take lot lot of effort from their side and also to surpass theirselfs with server capabilities and networking codes etc .I dont know if they can do it.
On the other hand i wouldnt have a problem to play with tab targeting wow style system as long its not exactly the same. They must find a way to make tab system more tactical and more intresting than the usual combat systems we ve seen so far. How? its up to them..there are ways things like counter attacks, combo moves etc .
I was also discussing with a friend the other day an idea about a wow/eq combat system where each player every 3 secs can perform one move and beetween the timer he can only move around till his timer comes back ,but in such a way that the player watch a nice horography of nicely designed of parry,block,hits,dodges that the player enjoys watching each time every single combat that he does.In such a system the player arrange his movement in the battlefield according to what he has in mind to perform as his next move,depending how many enemies he battles change stances etc etc thats something we havent seen so far and seems to be a quite tactical system which i wish someday to see in an mmorpg.
Point is that, every system needs to work out well anwy and to be build around it in such a way that it actually works smooth and that is fun for the players.
Yeah, its real pressuring and nerve racking when in Neverwinter/Tera/WildStar there is a giant big red warning of a crater on the ground "BRO, PLEASE GET OUT OF THE WAY, BRO, PLEASE" and then 5 seconds later they throw out a super laggy attack. And they always teach you that dodge roll mechanic that you dont even need, you can just walk away or around of the big RED CIRCLE OF DOOM WARNING.
Incase it wasn't clear enough, that was sarcasm. I have yet to be impressed by action combat in MMORPG's. Not saying it sucks, just not impressed. If action combat is back, I dont want to see the red warning crater of bro please move within 5 seconds. Also there are legitimate flaws in the combat like in Neverwinter. Neverwinter's combat is not good.
Looking at the poll now that it has had time to mature, action combat of some form is well over 50% combined.
Regarding big red circles... I agree. If it is a telegraphed attack that needs to be avoided, surely this can be done with animations and spell effects, rather than stupidly obvious red circles.
Turnbased D&D.
Nah, the old tab-targeting skillbar stuff will do. But what about giving us say 20 buttons to keep track of, rather than 80 (wow) or 5 (gw2)
I have a feeling we may see a first person view action combat system.
Uh, you have between 13 and 16 buttons to worry about in GW2, depending on the profession.
Imagine a franchise like Elder Scrolls where the combat was replaced with tab-targeting. Say what you will about the sub-par combat of Skyrim, but the game you'd end up with would not only be a boring and skill-less, but you forget to consider how less immersive it would be. As mentioned, "action-combat" is far more intuitive and immersive, and that's far more important to me than different races playing differently. That's why I play games in the first place, to get immersed in another world. That being said, there's no reason why race can't make a difference in a skill-based combat system. There's movement speed, swing speed, base damage with different types of weapons etc.... Now if they want every class/race combination to be balanced, we're going to run into a problem, but I hope the developers aren't that short-sighted.
To get back on the point of immersion, and bring up a previous point in the blending of strategy and skill; Imagine a world where a volley of arrows was a viable method to defend a keep. This is an example of both strategy and teamwork (coordinated aim-height, and shot force), in a skill based system. The engine currently allows it, but obviously we haven't seen it yet, since there are no slow-moving projectiles that aren't self-propelled in PS2, but the fact remains, there's a physics engine, and unlimited possibilities because of it.
If EQNext is truly going to be revolutionary, it's got to get combat right. It'll have to have all the great concepts of games past (aggro system, CC, and most importantly skill chains), and combine it with the genre's effort to implement more intuitive and immersive 'aimed' combat.
I definitely agree, I don't want a hand-holding combat design. Although the games you mentioned aren't perfect, it's a step in the right direction. I just don't think that getting stuck in the past with traditional combat is the answer.
If they want the combat to be more reminiscent to single-player action games, then why not have similar mechanics? I don't need need red circles in single player games so I definitely wouldn't need them in MMO's.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
What I 'want' wasn't listed so I selected 'none'. I have been partial to the unlimited tab targeting for quite some time, but then I realized there must be a way or system that would provide multi-targets. So, with that said, I want a new kind of system: multi-target selection, unlimited classification.
Let me explain ...
When I cast a targeted AE spell in a group of 5 mobs that only hits 4, I want to be able to control who this spell hits. A multi-target system would provide a solution to this. For melee, this is a bit dumbed down ... meaning - when I swing a sword that is bigger than a tree in a lateral motion to hit two mobs in front of me, I want to hit both mobs. Not hit the one I have targeted and mysteriously miss the second. A melee multi target system would allow a pre-defined kill sequence, or, a priority sequence for debuff chains... so many options!
My favorite MMO combat was Darkfall Archery and Magic casting, but my least favorite was Darkfall melee combat. I'm not sure they can reconcile the types of combat, but that was the most fun I've had. Melee shouldn't be a hop fest.
I love tab target games too though, so it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.
Aiming is fun, it makes the game seem somehow connected for me, but then tab targeting opens up so much strategy related to skill selection that I love that too. I'm not sure you could mix both, but I like the idea for archery or magic. Like, grab a poisoned arrow or a spelled arrow even. Click the type of attack you want the way you would a spell, and then aim that.
melee on the other hand I've never played an action based melee game that I enjoyed in MMO's. I liked mortal combat, that's as close as I get. On the other hand I do like melee with tab target.
Asdar
so why not just do away with tab targetting all together. its pretty simple, action combat if your projectile or sword makes contact with it, it hits it....why the hell do we need to tab target to a person and then wait for an RNG to tell us if we hit it or not? are people really that inept they cant aim? and why would u not want to aim? it provides so much more immersion
+1
kickass system, loving it
Yeah i think AOC is the best yet but i also want the game to have a /follow command, i multibox two characters in all mmo that have a follow.
I voted other, and this is it.
/agree
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
If it was pure action based, I agree what you said would work very well. I tend to not like the extremely fast cooldown action implementation though, you can't do much else but hit keys non-stop.
Melee and spells are different in this regard. Melee works perfectly with the pure action model, spells are a bit different only because they are ranged, and don't have collision to interact with their target.
I was speaking of a melded system, since not every ability would be an AOE ability. But, if you wanted to cast a spell that was supposed to hit 3 mobs, in my ideal system you'd have to select 3 - or, fall back to selecting one and having RNG select the other two. If that wasn't part of the system, then RNG would come into play and auto-select 3 mobs around a certain target.
So many times I had been casting tigir's on a shaman in EQ1 that only hits 4 mobs and it auto-selects the ones I don't need to slow yet. Would have been nice to say 'slow only the melee mobs, not the casters!'.
WIth that said, the game shouldn't really rely upon targeted AOE abilities, so I'm very much more partial to action based combat, just with some small modifications.
I believe I'm not the only one here who really just doesn't mind long as I can dodge, block, and my sword has to connect the player.
I voted for GW2 but really would have voted for the others except WoW/EQ style or any other tab target combat style.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I want to see something I haven't seen before.
I do not want this game to copy and paste major features from other games.
I'm not sure why the community keeps shouting for something new, then proceeds to list all the features from previous games it should have.
We demand particular features before launch, then berate the game for being the same ol' same ol' after launch.
Don't expect the past - demand the future.
"Let destruction rain!" from Asbel Tales of Graces f
Action based with limited hotbar.
I can't really say NWO as example, because I think NWO combat is very unresponsive. It's combat animations lock you into place, which is very noticable on my guardian. And the blocking takes too much time, you can't do any 'last moment' blocking. So if you are used to games that require fast reaction times, NWO feels annoyingly slow.
I don't hate tab based per se. But most tab based combat is very boring for me. GW1 was one of the few games where I liked the tab based combat imo, mainly because it had these very fast responding interrupt skills on Mesmer and Ranger. Also loved knockdown warrior in that game, I also liked the limited hotbar support that forced you to create builds for different situations.
I am not a fan of WoW in general, but I really liked the responsiveness of WoW combat. Although needing half a screen for hotbars is silly imo. I can do without that. But any game dev should set WoW's combat responsiveness as example imo.
Well said, I only hope the future has room for 55+ players(with slowing reflexes) living in Australia (with 300ms lag times).
Melee can be good in the first person view point if done correctly, Chivalry has shown that. However, I think it would be possible to have a hybrid system where you are in first person with ranged and third person with melee. It could also be possible to have an aiming-tab target hybrid where some things like a healing spell or a damage over time spell could be tab target while something like a bow or fireball could be aimed. So anything that instantly travels to the target would be tab target while things that have a travel time and can be dodged or blocked are aimed.