Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Why FF14 ARR won't be a success

13567

Comments

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon

    OP, be more specific about who the agents you're describing are.

    What's a Final Fantasy fan in your post? It seems like a Final Fantasy fan is an FFXI player in your opinion. I can't know for sure since you're being vague. Either way, FFXI fans are a tiny minority of Final Fantasy fans as a whole. There exists tens of millions of them around the world.

    To be convincing, you need to explain why the tens of millions of FF fans can not act as the newcomers (as more than half a million FF fans did during FFXI's time), and why games without existing fanbases stand on the same line with this game after the fact.

    Just to clarify, SW:TOR is a cheap-looking movie spin-off game popular only in the West while XIV:ARR is a mainline title of a gaming franchise on it's home platform, popular in both West and Japan, country where no other MMORPG but Final Fantasy (and PSO/Dragon Quest) can be successful.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Witten
    Originally posted by Murugan
    I wish people who keep saying this game is the same as "all the others" would have showed me a game that had ALL of these things:

     

    • One character=ALL THINGS POSSIBLE (every piece of content, every class/job/any type of progression not just different "specs" you can choose from for your ONE class)
    • FATE like open world system, and LOADS of trinity based party dependent content for both leveling and endgame progression
    • Armory chest to make changing jobs painless/not a complete drain on inventory like well even gearing on single class MMO's can be (first MMO ever 80% + of my inventory space at endgame is not taken up by my gear)
    • Multiple 24 person raid zones, and varied single group endgame (Primals, Dungeons etc.) with many things to progress/do
    • Some kind of Limit Break like party based combat system (EQ2, Vanguard, and other "weakness/sync/symbiotic" etc. half assed ignored features don't count)
    • crafts/gathering professions as separate classes rather than tacked on experiences
    • Beautiful art/graphics
    • A story/setting as good as FFXIV

     

    I would have had something to play in between betas.  Yet all these games: WoW, Rift, GW2, EQ2 that I have played don't really seem to be the exact same experience.  Obviously.

     

    I don't think many people parroting the term on internet forums know what the word clone even means.  To be a clone you have to be the same in every aspect, so obviously this game is not a clone of any game ever.  It is also not a "reskin" (which still wouldn't be a clone) as no other game on the market even has all of FFXIV's features in one package.

     

    Just more buzz words for people to troll with because they don't like a game and for some reason feel the need to justify their hate to everyone so people understand them and more importantly agree with them. 

    sup bro what's good.

    I think I saw you on Marlboro once lololol

     

    I played on Malboro  (=P) for the first weekend of phase 3.

     

    But now I have my 1.0 character back so I'm on Ridill until I transfer to Excalibur for 2.0.

  • ReesRacerReesRacer Dallas, TXPosts: 155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

     Final Fantasy fans don't expect a playable game, they expect a new adventure, a ground-breaking innovative game and new game mechanics. Why? Because in the past, that is what Final Fantasy has been all about.

     

    The goals, we can only speculate on, but the seem to be along the line of "people play X so lets do X or something similar to that, as long as we make money". 

    Whilst I appreciate your effort to compose a well-constructed and thoughtful argument, your entire premise fails due to the assertion through several "fallacies" (quoted above):

    existential fallacy, or existential instantiationwe presuppose that a class has members when we are not supposed to do so; that is, when we should not assume existential import. 

    vacuous truthtruth that is devoid of content because it asserts something about all members of a class that is empty or because it says "If A then B" when in fact A is inherently false.

    appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) - the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be the case (or might possibly be the case).

    argumentum ad populuma fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

     

    Essentially, you assume to know what all Final Fantasy fans desire from the game and speculate on what formula the developers have been using to construct the game.  After you've begun your OP with these paragraphs, the rest of what you've said (and in subsequent posts) lacks the relevancy you intended. It does not mean that many would disagree with your opinions or even the argument that ARR lacks innovation, but your core argument was why it "won't be a success". 

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon

    I think the game will likely do fine.

    However, I'm not leaving Rift or my other themeparks to start playing this game.  It may do stuff a little different but not really enough so that I would drop all the progress and investment I have in other games, especially not for a sub-locked game.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    OP, be more specific about who the agents you're describing are.

    What's a Final Fantasy fan in your post? It seems like a Final Fantasy fan is an FFXI player in your opinion. I can't know for sure since you're being vague. Either way, FFXI fans are a tiny minority of Final Fantasy fans as a whole. There exists tens of millions of them around the world.

    To be convincing, you need to explain why the tens of millions of FF fans can not act as the newcomers (as more than half a million FF fans did during FFXI's time), and why games without existing fanbases stand on the same line with this game after the fact.

    Just to clarify, SW:TOR is a cheap-looking movie spin-off game popular only in the West while XIV:ARR is a mainline title of a gaming franchise on it's home platform, popular in both West and Japan, country where no other MMORPG but Final Fantasy (and PSO/Dragon Quest) can be successful.

    A fan is not only someone that likes the game, but someone that cannot wait for the next release. More like a music fan. Those who will be willing to drop 15$ per month to play a game. A pseudo-fan likes the games but will never be willing to spend money each month for a game.

     

    The cannot act as newcomers for the simple fact that unlike 2001, today's market is flooded with MMOs and easily accessible multiplayer games. It changes a lot of things and most importantly, it stresses the fact that people will leave if they even get annoyed the slightest bit in the beginning. Games without fanbases have no expectancies while those with fanbases have huge expectancies. If they cannot meet the huge expectancy then their fanbase is meaningless. If they meet it though it is guaranteed success. I cannot think of a bigger fanbase than Star Wars, we all know how that went.

     

    Speaking of TOR, I agree. I often even refuse to call it Star Wars. I really like Final Fantasy and I really hope the Japanese market makes it work so there can be another MMO made one day. However, my scepticism towards that is the very low difficulty of the game made to appeal to westerners which may shoo away a lot of Japanese players. Perhaps gaming in Japan changed, but from what I recall, easy is boring in their culture and it applied greatly to gaming.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • WittenWitten Austin, TXPosts: 48Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I think the game will likely do fine.

    However, I'm not leaving Rift or my other themeparks to start playing this game.  It may do stuff a little different but not really enough so that I would drop all the progress and investment I have in other games, especially not for a sub-locked game.

    Indeed,

    The game will do fine.

    Even with baiting threads as this one, where the OP hopes to get his message out- has the opposite effect. I'm sure he wants his fifteen hours back.

     

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    A fan is not only someone that likes the game, but someone that cannot wait for the next release. More like a music fan. Those who will be willing to drop 15$ per month to play a game. A pseudo-fan likes the games but will never be willing to spend money each month for a game.

    The cannot act as newcomers for the simple fact that unlike 2001, today's market is flooded with MMOs and easily accessible multiplayer games. It changes a lot of things and most importantly, it stresses the fact that people will leave if they even get annoyed the slightest bit in the beginning. Games without fanbases have no expectancies while those with fanbases have huge expectancies. If they cannot meet the huge expectancy then their fanbase is meaningless. If they meet it though it is guaranteed success. I cannot think of a bigger fanbase than Star Wars, we all know how that went.

    Speaking of TOR, I agree. I often even refuse to call it Star Wars. I really like Final Fantasy and I really hope the Japanese market makes it work so there can be another MMO made one day. However, my scepticism towards that is the very low difficulty of the game made to appeal to westerners which may shoo away a lot of Japanese players. Perhaps gaming in Japan changed, but from what I recall, easy is boring in their culture and it applied greatly to gaming.

    I don't really see why one must be a fan (in your definition) to drop ~15$ for a sub fee.

    Of course you expect value added for your investment. This really isn't (non)fan-specific, if the devs don't give you value for the sub fee then you won't play the game. But if the devs give you said value then I don't really see how it matters whether you're a fan of that caliber or of a smaller caliber, your investment is justified. You feel like you're getting something out of the sub fee.

    With that said how can we know what that value is right now, or at launch? We can experience it ourselves once the devs start updating the game with new content patches in regular intervals. That's the added value, the return of your investment. Not the product at release, but what comes afterwards. The point is, if SE can't keep up with what players expect to get for their money, they will leave. There is simply no way to know - not even guess - how the post-release support will look like. All we know so far is that they've spent a lot of resources to bringing the game this far.

    Another big point is that you are mistaken if you think a Final Fantasy MMO is defined by being an MMO rather than being defined as being a Final Fantasy. It really matters not if there is a lot of competition in the market if there is only one modern Final Fantasy MMO to the people who want to play a Final Fantasy MMO. It is either this MMO or no MMO at all. Of course these people expect some sort of standards from the franchise - good visuals, good music, engaging stories, interesting worlds and the Final Fantasy staples.

    A correction to your point about expectations. A known franchise has to compete against itself and the standards it has built in the minds of the population. An unknown franchise has to compete against every other similar product in the market, since it has no defining features to set it apart (like being a Final Fantasy with Final Fantasy staples).

    Lastly but not the least, Final Fantasy games are not hard by any standards. In fact, while MMO players may consider encounters in ARR to be easy, for the franchise itself the bar has been set pretty high with this game. In a nutshell, Final Fantasy games are easy, and Japanese like Final Fantasy games, so I can't really agree with your claim that Japanese don't like easy games.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by 9reesracer9
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

     Final Fantasy fans don't expect a playable game, they expect a new adventure, a ground-breaking innovative game and new game mechanics. Why? Because in the past, that is what Final Fantasy has been all about.

     

    The goals, we can only speculate on, but the seem to be along the line of "people play X so lets do X or something similar to that, as long as we make money". 

    Whilst I appreciate your effort to compose a well-constructed and thoughtful argument, your entire premise fails due to the assertion through several "fallacies" (quoted above):

    existential fallacy, or existential instantiationwe presuppose that a class has members when we are not supposed to do so; that is, when we should not assume existential import. 

    vacuous truthtruth that is devoid of content because it asserts something about all members of a class that is empty or because it says "If A then B" when in fact A is inherently false.

    appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) - the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be the case (or might possibly be the case).

    argumentum ad populuma fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

     

    Essentially, you assume to know what all Final Fantasy fans desire from the game and speculate on what formula the developers have been using to construct the game.  After you've begun your OP with these paragraphs, the rest of what you've said (and in subsequent posts) lacks the relevancy you intended. It does not mean that many would disagree with your opinions or even the argument that ARR lacks innovation, but your core argument was why it "won't be a success". 

     

     

    You see too much in the little bit that was written. I actually did an unwritten argumentum ad populum where I concluded that because many know what being a fan truly means that everyone knew. I do not, nor did I, have the wish to actually properly define it.

    The rest of your arguments lack research, the title was obviously a response to another thread with the same fallacies, which means that mine will obviously contain fallacies, it was named "Why FF14 ARR will be a success".  You cannot see fallacies within satire unless you refuse to research why those fallacies were committed. 

    Also, speculating is always fine until proof of the contrary is given, which is not something private companies tend to do, so we must always assume the most likely probability while looking from the outside. A fallacy implies that the actual facts are out there, which they are not. So calling speculation a fallacy without providing opposing facts is a fallacy in itself.

     

    Also, welcome to the Internet, where threads no not stay focused on the one, single topic mentioned in the OP. This is not a scientific research forum from which a comittee is tasked with producing official documents on a pre-defined topic. Threads that do not go off-topic are either quite large in scope or simply are uninteresting as they fail to start up interaction.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by Hyanmen
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    A fan is not only someone that likes the game, but someone that cannot wait for the next release. More like a music fan. Those who will be willing to drop 15$ per month to play a game. A pseudo-fan likes the games but will never be willing to spend money each month for a game.

    The cannot act as newcomers for the simple fact that unlike 2001, today's market is flooded with MMOs and easily accessible multiplayer games. It changes a lot of things and most importantly, it stresses the fact that people will leave if they even get annoyed the slightest bit in the beginning. Games without fanbases have no expectancies while those with fanbases have huge expectancies. If they cannot meet the huge expectancy then their fanbase is meaningless. If they meet it though it is guaranteed success. I cannot think of a bigger fanbase than Star Wars, we all know how that went.

    Speaking of TOR, I agree. I often even refuse to call it Star Wars. I really like Final Fantasy and I really hope the Japanese market makes it work so there can be another MMO made one day. However, my scepticism towards that is the very low difficulty of the game made to appeal to westerners which may shoo away a lot of Japanese players. Perhaps gaming in Japan changed, but from what I recall, easy is boring in their culture and it applied greatly to gaming.

    I don't really see why one must be a fan (in your definition) to drop ~15$ for a sub fee.

    Of course you expect value added for your investment. This really isn't (non)fan-specific, if the devs don't give you value for the sub fee then you won't play the game. But if the devs give you said value then I don't really see how it matters whether you're a fan of that caliber or of a smaller caliber, your investment is justified. You feel like you're getting something out of the sub fee.

    With that said how can we know what that value is right now, or at launch? We can experience it ourselves once the devs start updating the game with new content patches in regular intervals. That's the added value, the return of your investment. Not the product at release, but what comes afterwards. The point is, if SE can't keep up with what players expect to get for their money, they will leave. There is simply no way to know - not even guess - how the post-release support will look like. All we know so far is that they've spent a lot of resources to bringing the game this far.

    Another big point is that you are mistaken if you think a Final Fantasy MMO is defined by being an MMO rather than being defined as being a Final Fantasy. It really matters not if there is a lot of competition in the market if there is only one modern Final Fantasy MMO to the people who want to play a Final Fantasy MMO. It is either this MMO or no MMO at all. Of course these people expect some sort of standards from the franchise - good visuals, good music, engaging stories, interesting worlds and the Final Fantasy staples.

    A correction to your point about expectations. A known franchise has to compete against itself and the standards it has built in the minds of the population. An unknown franchise has to compete against every other similar product in the market, since it has no defining features to set it apart (like being a Final Fantasy with Final Fantasy staples).

    Lastly but not the least, Final Fantasy games are not hard by any standards. In fact, while MMO players may consider encounters in ARR to be easy, for the franchise itself the bar has been set pretty high with this game. In a nutshell, Final Fantasy games are easy, and Japanese like Final Fantasy games, so I can't really agree with your claim that Japanese don't like easy games.

    One must be a fan because the general concensus is that this game is aimed at FF fans, not MMO players, a concensus you seem to agree with given your second paragraph. So in the event that you are right, those fans really need to be willing to drop 15$ a month. Sure if there are content updates every month like they do in GW2, I may be tempted to give it a shot after  6 months or so if people still play.

     

    Unknown franchises have to compete against other similar franchises, but expectations are not there. No one comes in saying how they expect the spells and classes to be because it is like that in other games. Competing is very different than expectations. Example: A game like FFXIV must compete with all the other games, but most fans expect them to be well above the competition because of their reputation. Someone logs into FFXIV and sees thaumaturge and not Black Mage and hasn't played FF since FF10? He might be gone soon. If Wildstar goes and calls a mage class the "Pointy Hat" class, it won't make a difference as long as the gameplay is on a high enough level to compete with other games.

     

    From what I gather, people seem to consider the encounters too long, thus, boring. Perhaps it is not the difficulty, but the lack of guidance that they like, but there have been games that are different in Japan and the Americas because they had to simplify and lower the difficulty level of American versions.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • oGMooGMo Seattle, WAPosts: 89Member


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    One must be a fan because the general concensus is that this game is aimed at FF fans, not MMO players, a concensus you seem to agree with given your second paragraph. So in the event that you are right, those fans really need to be willing to drop 15$ a month. Sure if there are content updates every month like they do in GW2, I may be tempted to give it a shot after  6 months or so if people still play.

    We've already established you haven't played this and your points are invalid. Further, you started off by arguing FFXI was a success, yet now you're wondering if Final Fantasy fans will pay $15/mo? They still do for FFXI!


    <blather snipped>
    From what I gather, people seem to consider the encounters too long, thus, boring. Perhaps it is not the difficulty, but the lack of guidance that they like, but there have been games that are different in Japan and the Americas because they had to simplify and lower the difficulty level of American versions.

    You just pointed out this was for Final Fantasy fans, yet encounters are "long, thus, boring", and it needs simplified? Yet, you think FFXI was a better game?

    I'm not sure if you're bitter because you haven't gotten a beta invite, or you're a fan of some other game, or what, but the self-contradiction here is pretty ridiculous. There's not even a distinguishable argument anymore other than "I think FFXIV will fail," even though you haven't even played it.

    What value does this discussion hold again?

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by oGMo

     


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    One must be a fan because the general concensus is that this game is aimed at FF fans, not MMO players, a concensus you seem to agree with given your second paragraph. So in the event that you are right, those fans really need to be willing to drop 15$ a month. Sure if there are content updates every month like they do in GW2, I may be tempted to give it a shot after  6 months or so if people still play.


     

    We've already established you haven't played this and your points are invalid. Further, you started off by arguing FFXI was a success, yet now you're wondering if Final Fantasy fans will pay $15/mo? They still do for FFXI!

     



    From what I gather, people seem to consider the encounters too long, thus, boring. Perhaps it is not the difficulty, but the lack of guidance that they like, but there have been games that are different in Japan and the Americas because they had to simplify and lower the difficulty level of American versions.

     

    You just pointed out this was for Final Fantasy fans, yet encounters are "long, thus, boring", and it needs simplified? Yet, you think FFXI was a better game?

    I'm not sure if you're bitter because you haven't gotten a beta invite, or you're a fan of some other game, or what, but the self-contradiction here is pretty ridiculous. There's not even a distinguishable argument anymore other than "I think FFXIV will fail," even though you haven't even played it.

    What value does this discussion hold again?

    You established your own conclusions. I am no longer in beta because I uninstalled the game, not because I wasn't invited. Also, you seem to assume that they only invited FF fans and no one else, yet, many are MMO players who are looking for a new game.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    Originally posted by Hyanmen
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    A fan is not only someone that likes the game, but someone that cannot wait for the next release. More like a music fan. Those who will be willing to drop 15$ per month to play a game. A pseudo-fan likes the games but will never be willing to spend money each month for a game.

    The cannot act as newcomers for the simple fact that unlike 2001, today's market is flooded with MMOs and easily accessible multiplayer games. It changes a lot of things and most importantly, it stresses the fact that people will leave if they even get annoyed the slightest bit in the beginning. Games without fanbases have no expectancies while those with fanbases have huge expectancies. If they cannot meet the huge expectancy then their fanbase is meaningless. If they meet it though it is guaranteed success. I cannot think of a bigger fanbase than Star Wars, we all know how that went.

    Speaking of TOR, I agree. I often even refuse to call it Star Wars. I really like Final Fantasy and I really hope the Japanese market makes it work so there can be another MMO made one day. However, my scepticism towards that is the very low difficulty of the game made to appeal to westerners which may shoo away a lot of Japanese players. Perhaps gaming in Japan changed, but from what I recall, easy is boring in their culture and it applied greatly to gaming.

    I don't really see why one must be a fan (in your definition) to drop ~15$ for a sub fee.

    Of course you expect value added for your investment. This really isn't (non)fan-specific, if the devs don't give you value for the sub fee then you won't play the game. But if the devs give you said value then I don't really see how it matters whether you're a fan of that caliber or of a smaller caliber, your investment is justified. You feel like you're getting something out of the sub fee.

    With that said how can we know what that value is right now, or at launch? We can experience it ourselves once the devs start updating the game with new content patches in regular intervals. That's the added value, the return of your investment. Not the product at release, but what comes afterwards. The point is, if SE can't keep up with what players expect to get for their money, they will leave. There is simply no way to know - not even guess - how the post-release support will look like. All we know so far is that they've spent a lot of resources to bringing the game this far.

    Another big point is that you are mistaken if you think a Final Fantasy MMO is defined by being an MMO rather than being defined as being a Final Fantasy. It really matters not if there is a lot of competition in the market if there is only one modern Final Fantasy MMO to the people who want to play a Final Fantasy MMO. It is either this MMO or no MMO at all. Of course these people expect some sort of standards from the franchise - good visuals, good music, engaging stories, interesting worlds and the Final Fantasy staples.

    A correction to your point about expectations. A known franchise has to compete against itself and the standards it has built in the minds of the population. An unknown franchise has to compete against every other similar product in the market, since it has no defining features to set it apart (like being a Final Fantasy with Final Fantasy staples).

    Lastly but not the least, Final Fantasy games are not hard by any standards. In fact, while MMO players may consider encounters in ARR to be easy, for the franchise itself the bar has been set pretty high with this game. In a nutshell, Final Fantasy games are easy, and Japanese like Final Fantasy games, so I can't really agree with your claim that Japanese don't like easy games.

    One must be a fan because the general concensus is that this game is aimed at FF fans, not MMO players, a concensus you seem to agree with given your second paragraph. So in the event that you are right, those fans really need to be willing to drop 15$ a month. Sure if there are content updates every month like they do in GW2, I may be tempted to give it a shot after  6 months or so if people still play.

     

    Unknown franchises have to compete against other similar franchises, but expectations are not there. No one comes in saying how they expect the spells and classes to be because it is like that in other games. Competing is very different than expectations. Example: A game like FFXIV must compete with all the other games, but most fans expect them to be well above the competition because of their reputation. Someone logs into FFXIV and sees thaumaturge and not Black Mage and hasn't played FF since FF10? He might be gone soon. If Wildstar goes and calls a mage class the "Pointy Hat" class, it won't make a difference as long as the gameplay is on a high enough level to compete with other games.

     

    From what I gather, people seem to consider the encounters too long, thus, boring. Perhaps it is not the difficulty, but the lack of guidance that they like, but there have been games that are different in Japan and the Americas because they had to simplify and lower the difficulty level of American versions.

     

    Do you seriously not even know that Black Mage is in this game?  Please share more of your wisdom and predictions for a game you clearly know so much about...

     

    it is on the box lol.  I don't think this is a big worry for FFXIV with new players. 

  • Maik36Maik36 Indianapolis, INPosts: 59Member
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    First, we must define what a success is. In this case success is attaining or surpassing the goals set by developers and the expectations for the game. The goals are set by the developper, the expectations come from the fans. Final Fantasy fans don't expect a playable game, they expect a new adventure, a ground-breaking innovative game and new game mechanics. Why? Because in the past, that is what Final Fantasy has been all about.

     

    The goals, we can only speculate on, but the seem to be along the line of "people play X so lets do X or something similar to that, as long as we make money". While it is normal for a company to want to make money, it is also when you focus on making money instead of meeting expectations that you lose money. When you do not meet a customer's expectations, few customers will stay and hope you improve. Players in this day and age want much more than "a playable game".

     

    So what does this game offer? Does it offer groundbreaking, new, innovative combat? No. Does it offer a new, groundbreaking, innovative story? At the moment, it seems not. Does it offer new, groundbreaking, innovative dungeons, reasons for grouping, reasons to interact? No. Does it offer new classes? No. New controls? No. So what does this game offer? Nothing new, just the old content all MMO players looking for a new game do not want. So right off the bat, they simply step back and understand that the game isn't meant for them.  Unless, of course, a playstation release is considered new, then there is something, but it is hard to imagine how that will draw enough attention to attract people.

     

    So who is the target audience? It seems it is new players, newcomers to the MMO world. Veterans are being forced through boring design principles from the beginning. MMOs are just like stores. If a customer walks into a store and sees nothing of interest within 5 minutes, you most likely lost him for a very, very long time if not forever. MMOs get more than 5 minutes though, they get 2 hours to impress. If they can't, he's gone. Likewise, if he gets bored within the first week, he's gone. I guess such a display of ignorance is the price to pay when you let someone who is not an analyst lead production.

     

    So the big question really is, are there enough newcomers to sustain a game long enough for it to stay afloat especially after the 3rd month exodus (that happens even in successful games, but it seems like an interesting phenomenon - Every 3rd month of a new game is where players seem to give up on it the most)? The last game that lacked innovation, which was touted as the next big thing, was SW:TOR. It barely made it thanks to going F2P and it is still very far from a success, it is only playable.

     

    Given that nostalgic Final Fantasy fans will still give the game a try, it still seems like FF11 is the better game of the two. There is no reason for a max level player from FF11 to switch over to FF14 at this point in time. For this reason and those listed above, this game will never be a success, but, with some luck, it might be able to stay afloat. Best of luck to them, but for me, its time to move on and wait for something else as this will never meet my expectations.

    It's too early to say that FFXIV ARR won't offer new adventures, ground-breaking, innovative gameplay, or new game mechanics. It is still in beta after all and there are many aspects that have not been implemented.

    After the failure of FFXIV 1.0, SquareEnix's is playing it safe by turning to systems used by other successful MMOs. There is nothing wrong with that. And, the MMO with arguable the best systems is WoW.  WoW is the most successful MMO that has ever been made, and it has managed to retain millions of its subs. What does that tell you? It tells you that people like what WoW offers, the complete package. SquareEnix has given us WoW, in the form of quests, user friendly UI, instances, etc, things that people have come to love and expect from their MMOs, but at the same time they have stayed true to the Final Fantasy series.

    Those little things that make up the Final Fantasy universe are all contained within Final Fantasy XIV ARR, and those little things aren't found in any other MMO, other than maybe FFXI. Some of those little things include the attention to detail,  an amazing story that grabs a hold of you and doesn't let go until the end, and leaves you wanting more, the strong characterization that makes you love and hate characters, a world that pulls you in and makes you feel part of it as it's ever changing, teamwork and the bonds that you build with those team members, friends, and international people, a sense of duty, monsters that can't be found anywhere else with unique designs and back stories. The list goes on and on.

    There is a reason Final Fantasy is known by so many people, both young and old. It truly is the perfect mix of fantasy and adventure. There's a feeling you get when you play a Final Fantasy game, a feeling that's out of this world. You will play Final Fantasy XIV ARR because it's a Final Fantasy game and it has those little things, not because it's a MMO.

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member

    you know I would be more inclined to agree if the general opinion I get from people in beta wasn't so positive, compared to the feed back from people in recent betas, I find this promiseing,

    also from the way you talk about it I can only assume your not in beta, and are baseing your entire opinion off second hand knowledge, since tha tis the case I would rather try it for myself instead of trusting your second hand knowledge.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • ReesRacerReesRacer Dallas, TXPosts: 155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    Originally posted by 9reesracer9
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

     Final Fantasy fans don't expect a playable game, they expect a new adventure, a ground-breaking innovative game and new game mechanics. Why? Because in the past, that is what Final Fantasy has been all about.

     

    The goals, we can only speculate on, but the seem to be along the line of "people play X so lets do X or something similar to that, as long as we make money". 

    Whilst I appreciate your effort to compose a well-constructed and thoughtful argument, your entire premise fails due to the assertion through several "fallacies" (quoted above):

    existential fallacy, or existential instantiationwe presuppose that a class has members when we are not supposed to do so; that is, when we should not assume existential import. 

    vacuous truthtruth that is devoid of content because it asserts something about all members of a class that is empty or because it says "If A then B" when in fact A is inherently false.

    appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) - the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be the case (or might possibly be the case).

    argumentum ad populuma fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

     

    Essentially, you assume to know what all Final Fantasy fans desire from the game and speculate on what formula the developers have been using to construct the game.  After you've begun your OP with these paragraphs, the rest of what you've said (and in subsequent posts) lacks the relevancy you intended. It does not mean that many would disagree with your opinions or even the argument that ARR lacks innovation, but your core argument was why it "won't be a success". 

     

     

    You see too much in the little bit that was written. I actually did an unwritten argumentum ad populum where I concluded that because many know what being a fan truly means that everyone knew. I do not, nor did I, have the wish to actually properly define it.

    The rest of your arguments lack research, the title was obviously a response to another thread with the same fallacies, which means that mine will obviously contain fallacies, it was named "Why FF14 ARR will be a success".  You cannot see fallacies within satire unless you refuse to research why those fallacies were committed. 

    Also, speculating is always fine until proof of the contrary is given, which is not something private companies tend to do, so we must always assume the most likely probability while looking from the outside. A fallacy implies that the actual facts are out there, which they are not. So calling speculation a fallacy without providing opposing facts is a fallacy in itself.

     

    Also, welcome to the Internet, where threads no not stay focused on the one, single topic mentioned in the OP. This is not a scientific research forum from which a comittee is tasked with producing official documents on a pre-defined topic. Threads that do not go off-topic are either quite large in scope or simply are uninteresting as they fail to start up interaction.

    I was not, in fact, making an argument. I was simply drawing attention to the fallacies to discredit your thesis that the game will not be a success. "Speculate" and "assume" all you like. Whether your assertion comes to pass or not is irrelevant. 

    Also disappointing to see you've added the Ad hominem to your response. You might at least try to find a better meme than "welcome to the internet"  to make your point (but that is just my opinion). I was trying to engage in a more dialectical process than you seem interested in pursuing. 

    Again, some of your post(s) containing your opinions (subjective) and even more objective notes about the lack of innovation are perfectly acceptable (and even agreeable). 

  • goozmaniagoozmania chino, CAPosts: 145Member Uncommon

    What the forum hierarchy here fails to understand is that most people don't want anything new and different. People are clammering for a EQ/WoW clone, just one that is not pure shit. Those games are old, their systems convoluted, their graphics outdated. People want a new world to become addicted to for a couple years, and to start fresh and equal in.

    Even when you see people trolling forums, baiting against other games and hyping up new systems, they always end up reverting to the games they claim to hate... because we all want/need gear treadmills, alternate advancement, and reasons to communicate with other players.

    Oh... and FATES/Rifts/Dynamic Events/Public Quests are stupid and extremely poorly conceived. There, I said it.

  • DaxamarDaxamar Green Cove Springs, FLPosts: 554Member

    I have said this before, and I will keep saying it. The old formula for MMOs works. FF14 is doing it better.

    New combat system games are there, they go F2P. Alternative questing games are out there. There F2P or B2P.

    Theres choices for those they want that. FF14 is bringing nothing new. I'll admit that much. They are just doing it better.

    This game has a lot to offer. Try open Beta when it comes out. Or dont. Your mind is already made up that its a bad game.

    The game will succeed because its a good, solid game. Plus its got a huge FF following. I dont get it how people who have not played a game make predictions on a game, but then I forget this is the MMORPG Forums.

  • DaxamarDaxamar Green Cove Springs, FLPosts: 554Member
    Originally posted by goozmania
    -snip-

    Oh... and FATES/Rifts/Dynamic Events/Public Quests are stupid and extremely poorly conceived. There, I said it.

    This is the only new thing that seems to make people happy. Semi random events.Personally I like them. Others not so much. They add to any game IMO.

  • PpiperPpiper Horsham, PAPosts: 648Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    First, we must define what a success is. In this case success is attaining or surpassing the goals set by developers and the expectations for the game. The goals are set by the developper, the expectations come from the fans. Final Fantasy fans don't expect a playable game, they expect a new adventure, a ground-breaking innovative game and new game mechanics. Why? Because in the past, that is what Final Fantasy has been all about.

     

    The goals, we can only speculate on, but the seem to be along the line of "people play X so lets do X or something similar to that, as long as we make money". While it is normal for a company to want to make money, it is also when you focus on making money instead of meeting expectations that you lose money. When you do not meet a customer's expectations, few customers will stay and hope you improve. Players in this day and age want much more than "a playable game".

     

    So what does this game offer? Does it offer groundbreaking, new, innovative combat? No. Does it offer a new, groundbreaking, innovative story? At the moment, it seems not. Does it offer new, groundbreaking, innovative dungeons, reasons for grouping, reasons to interact? No. Does it offer new classes? No. New controls? No. So what does this game offer? Nothing new, just the old content all MMO players looking for a new game do not want. So right off the bat, they simply step back and understand that the game isn't meant for them.  Unless, of course, a playstation release is considered new, then there is something, but it is hard to imagine how that will draw enough attention to attract people.

     

    So who is the target audience? It seems it is new players, newcomers to the MMO world. Veterans are being forced through boring design principles from the beginning. MMOs are just like stores. If a customer walks into a store and sees nothing of interest within 5 minutes, you most likely lost him for a very, very long time if not forever. MMOs get more than 5 minutes though, they get 2 hours to impress. If they can't, he's gone. Likewise, if he gets bored within the first week, he's gone. I guess such a display of ignorance is the price to pay when you let someone who is not an analyst lead production.

     

    So the big question really is, are there enough newcomers to sustain a game long enough for it to stay afloat especially after the 3rd month exodus (that happens even in successful games, but it seems like an interesting phenomenon - Every 3rd month of a new game is where players seem to give up on it the most)? The last game that lacked innovation, which was touted as the next big thing, was SW:TOR. It barely made it thanks to going F2P and it is still very far from a success, it is only playable.

     

    Given that nostalgic Final Fantasy fans will still give the game a try, it still seems like FF11 is the better game of the two. There is no reason for a max level player from FF11 to switch over to FF14 at this point in time. For this reason and those listed above, this game will never be a success, but, with some luck, it might be able to stay afloat. Best of luck to them, but for me, its time to move on and wait for something else as this will never meet my expectations.

    I'm trying to find anything of value in this post. Nothing! This is an empty , meaningless, rambling mess. What is your point? Is there a point? I can't even read this without getting a headache. Can I have my 1 minute back, please?  Hate to say this, read more, post less.

  • sumdumguy1sumdumguy1 avondale, AZPosts: 962Member Uncommon
    I can define success any way I want and male most games a failure based upon my definition.  The bottom line is your opinion is just yours and it seems most don't agree.  I am looking forward to this game and will play it.  I am very hopeful I will like it, if I don't, oh well it won't be the first time and probably not the last.
  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by ILanedraexI
    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    First, we must define what a success is. In this case success is attaining or surpassing the goals set by developers and the expectations for the game. The goals are set by the developper, the expectations come from the fans. Final Fantasy fans don't expect a playable game, they expect a new adventure, a ground-breaking innovative game and new game mechanics. Why? Because in the past, that is what Final Fantasy has been all about.

    Since when a Final Fantasy game was about innovation? Only if you think making more than 10 turn based RPGs something creative. FF has innovated very little, maybe with FF Tactics or that other FF game that had classes you could choose (FF3 or 4, can't remember).

    Final Fantasy always was about story (and even then, all stories have a guy who wants to destroy the world). So we played each one of those because we liked what we were getting. Final Fantasy was almost a Call of Duty during most of it's existence, only recently FF has been trying to break it's own formula and that's probably the reason Square Enix is making less money than before.

    Gamers like tradition, it's been proven time and time again, that if you follow a formula you just need to do better at something inside said formula than the other games. You may get more players with turn based rpgs if you put better graphics than the others turn based rpgs, or you may get more players if your quests are more enjoyable than the others MMOs.

    If people really wanted innovation, WoW would've been dead by now, not because it wasn't innovative, no, but because it exists for a really long period of time.

    I've played FFXIV and I would say it hits the mark for a modern succesful MMORPG , it has WoW elements that the people want, it has GW2 elements that people liked and it's inside of a really well stabilished franchise that is Final Fantasy, where you can expect a good story and the other good things FF does.

    It won't be the best game ever, but it's a really solid game and I can speak from my experience (played the betas and V1).

    This was more or less what I was going to say - on point. FFX was using an only slightly varied turn-based combat system from the one the FF franchise had been using since the original (and a million other RPG franchises were also doing in the meantime, I might add), it wasn't until 12 that things became more 'fast-paced' and action oriented, and even then the vestiges of the turn-based system were there. The job system has been in many games in various iterations since FF3 (Japanese). There are changes in every title, but clearly innovation is not the point, either upon itself (though one could argue this battle system is the biggest departure from previous FF games they have ever done), or upon their competitors.

    Also, whether someone who is in endgame in FFXI would want to switch games is irrelevant, isn't it? They are keeping both games open for a reason - especially since in FFXI, if you've invested enough time into your character and linkshell, you might see yourself as having less reason to leave for any game.

    Another, 'it doesn't meet my expectations, so it won't meet most people's expectations' thread - yawn.

  • ArcticnoonArcticnoon Alamogordo, NMPosts: 141Member

    Neobahamut20.... Wow. You are a real piece of work.

    Somehow, somewhere you came to the conclusion that you are able to speak not only for all final fantasy fans, but for mmo and gamer fans in general. This fact alone makes EVERYTHING you say irrelevant, irrational and self delusional.

    If this is the case, why don't you tell us what women want while you're at it. Being in my thirties having dated for several decades and going through several long relationships, I can honesty say I still haven't figured women out. I would imagine that a high percentage of men feel the same way I do.

    Getting back to point.... FF13 would be considered by many a game that most FF fans did and still do not want. Yet it sold 10 million copies. Can you explain this to me? Without contradicting yourself.

    You talk of success, in fact you quantify it. Let me tell you a little of what I know of success.

    1. Of all the mmos at E3, FFXIV had hands down the best showing.

    2. Games like TESO, Neverwinter and even Wildstar... after their fans got their hands on the games or saw leaked footage, these games dropped on the hype meter, some even falling off completely. FFXIV on the other hand has done nothing but rise even after 3 stages of beta. Players like what they see, hear and have played.

    3. Read the forums. 9 out of 10 players are happy with FFXIV.

    4. 1 million beta registrations. 

     

    You claim that the final fantasy franchise is known for innovation and new game mechanics. You ask any FF fan (other than yourself) and they will tell you there are 4 things the FF franchise is known for

    1. Great story telling  2. Strong characters that you either love or hate. 3 Beautiful graphic and/or CG cutscenes  4. Epic boss battles.

    There is no innovation between FF7 through FF9. People might say the card battles in FF8 were new, but they were only new to the franchise. The had been done before. Voice overs in FF10 were new, but also had been done in other games before. FFXI was almost a direct copy of EQ. Innovation is something that never has been done before by anyone else. This is not FF. In fact FFXIV ARR is probably the only innovative game in the entire franchise with the way they incorporated the controller layout for console and pc. Its genius and has never been perfect by anyone to this degree before. There are those who say they haven't had as much fun in any mmo to the degree they have enjoyed FFXIV while playing with a controller.

    Innovation my friend. 

    Finally I want to look at some other game that are considered successful in comparison  to FFXIV

    WoW: No housing. Short endgame that can be beaten in a few weeks. No marriage or marriage ceremonies binding players. No companions. No party elements outside instant dungeons. No multiple classes on one character. No more than 2 crafts per character. Shallow crafting.(can go from 0-max level in one day). No new classes released though free patches, only through once a year expansions. No progressive endgame. No ability to craft endgame gear.

    GW2: No housing. No endgame. No marriage or marriage ceremonies between players. No companions. No party element. No multiple classes on one character. No holy trinity( FFXIV goes beyond trinity with the addition of the support class). No class identity.

    Yes FFXIV borrows several elements from these games and others, But no game puts all these element to together into one game. Especially a game with some much polish.

    You ask why would players leave FFXI to play FFXIV? Housing. The choice of soloing or grouping to max level. Better graphics. Better combat. Minions. The chance to fight epic bosses from previous FF titles in an mmo setting. The ability to level every craft on one character. The Golden Saucer. The Armory. Apps for smart phone that allow you to look at you and your friends characters and gear while on the go.

    Neo you have no idea what FF fans or gamers want. If you did you wouldn't  be on this site spouting drivel, you'd be making billions in marketing and implementing genius ideas for the mmo developers. 

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 983Member Uncommon
    I like how the OP says there is no storyline past level 20 but its well known that they have not released that part of the game in beta yet.  However he is going to complain about a game not having a story line quest past 20 and act like its the end of the world that is not in closed beta.  /rolls eyes 

    image

  • brieenbrieen Phoenix, AZPosts: 60Member
    Originally posted by Arcticnoon

    Neobahamut20.... Wow. You are a real piece of work.

    Somehow, somewhere you came to the conclusion that you are able to speak not only for all final fantasy fans, but for mmo and gamer fans in general. This fact alone makes EVERYTHING you say irrelevant, irrational and self delusional.

    If this is the case, why don't you tell us what women want while you're at it. Being in my thirties having dated for several decades and going through several long relationships, I can honesty say I still haven't figured women out. I would imagine that a high percentage of men feel the same way I do.

    Getting back to point.... FF13 would be considered by many a game that most FF fans did and still do not want. Yet it sold 10 million copies. Can you explain this to me? Without contradicting yourself.

    You talk of success, in fact you quantify it. Let me tell you a little of what I know of success.

    1. Of all the mmos at E3, FFXIV had hands down the best showing.

    2. Games like TESO, Neverwinter and even Wildstar... after their fans got their hands on the games or saw leaked footage, these games dropped on the hype meter, some even falling off completely. FFXIV on the other hand has done nothing but rise even after 3 stages of beta. Players like what they see, hear and have played.

    3. Read the forums. 9 out of 10 players are happy with FFXIV.

    4. 1 million beta registrations. 

     

    You claim that the final fantasy franchise is known for innovation and new game mechanics. You ask any FF fan (other than yourself) and they will tell you there are 4 things the FF franchise is known for

    1. Great story telling  2. Strong characters that you either love or hate. 3 Beautiful graphic and/or CG cutscenes  4. Epic boss battles.

    There is no innovation between FF7 through FF9. People might say the card battles in FF8 were new, but they were only new to the franchise. The had been done before. Voice overs in FF10 were new, but also had been done in other games before. FFXI was almost a direct copy of EQ. Innovation is something that never has been done before by anyone else. This is not FF. In fact FFXIV ARR is probably the only innovative game in the entire franchise with the way they incorporated the controller layout for console and pc. Its genius and has never been perfect by anyone to this degree before. There are those who say they haven't had as much fun in any mmo to the degree they have enjoyed FFXIV while playing with a controller.

    Innovation my friend. 

    Finally I want to look at some other game that are considered successful in comparison  to FFXIV

    WoW: No housing. Short endgame that can be beaten in a few weeks. No marriage or marriage ceremonies binding players. No companions. No party elements outside instant dungeons. No multiple classes on one character. No more than 2 crafts per character. Shallow crafting.(can go from 0-max level in one day). No new classes released though free patches, only through once a year expansions. No progressive endgame. No ability to craft endgame gear.

    GW2: No housing. No endgame. No marriage or marriage ceremonies between players. No companions. No party element. No multiple classes on one character. No holy trinity( FFXIV goes beyond trinity with the addition of the support class). No class identity.

    Yes FFXIV borrows several elements from these games and others, But no game puts all these element to together into one game. Especially a game with some much polish.

    You ask why would players leave FFXI to play FFXIV? Housing. The choice of soloing or grouping to max level. Better graphics. Better combat. Minions. The chance to fight epic bosses from previous FF titles in an mmo setting. The ability to level every craft on one character. The Golden Saucer. The Armory. Apps for smart phone that allow you to look at you and your friends characters and gear while on the go.

    Neo you have no idea what FF fans or gamers want. If you did you wouldn't  be on this site spouting drivel, you'd be making billions in marketing and implementing genius ideas for the mmo developers. 

    image i was not goin to login and feed the troll but i could not help me self i got board at work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

    Brieen - UO,DAOC,WOW,SB,EQ,EQII,EVE,LOTR,D&D,Rift,FFXI and some others I dont care to list......

  • SerenesSerenes johnson city, TNPosts: 352Member

    Most great MMOs have been "clones", of other MMOs just sayin.

     

    I'm going to wait and see if this is going to be a good game, but I think the chances are quite good.

Sign In or Register to comment.