I agree with you that guilds can become a nightmare when raids are in the 20+ man range. Right now it looks like the end game will be 24 man, however its possible they will do something more than just 24 man raids. There is alot of backlash on the Beta forums between people who want smaller raids and those people who want larger raids. I can tell you this if SE is looking at WoW as an example their 25 man raiding has basically went to the crapper and I think SE will pay attention to this. I was on Stormrage before I quit 2 months after Mop Dropped and they are the #1 Raiding server. With only 2% of all raiding guilds doing 25 man raids its hard to dispute that large raiding is gone though people that want large raids will never see it. I have a feeling that SE might do scaled raids because it would give people more of what they want vs strict numbers.
FF mmos are different from games like WoW, in the fact that the game designers didnt make endgame for "everyone"
FFXI is a perfect example. The relic weapons were and still are the baddest weapons in game. They were head and shoulders above anything else. Even with a perfect group helping you to aquire one(very few had such a group) it on average would take you a full year just to finish it!
Many were not happy about how tough it was to get these weapons, but the devs said the didnt make these weapons for everyone and their mother to be running around with. Just the hardcore elite. Same went for the gear dropped by AV.
Now there were many, many other things for more casual players to do in FFXI.
I feel FFXIV and their 24 man raids are more of the same. Its not meant for the casual. There will still be tons of other enjoyable things to do. And you dont have to have the very best gear to be able to enjoy most things in the game.
Endgame however is for the hardcore. The devs have said that most groups will need to wipe 5-7 times before they figure things out. They have also said it will take months to complete.
I know this is not what the casual player wants to hear, but dont lose heart. The devs have said that once the first expansion is released and new endgame introduced, they will put in a "easy mode" for original endgame, so that the casual player will have a chance at those elements. Being a hardcore fan myself I'm hoping the easy mode loot will be just a little less shiny than that from original hard mode
Yes you will be able to enjoy this game immensely with a 5 man group of friends.
1. It only takes 4 members to start your own free company.
2. Once you start a free company you can buy land and build a house to be shared by you and your mates. Your house will also enable you to enjoy the chocobo breeding element of the game
3. PvP at start will be 4v4 collaseum style. In your case PvP should be very enjoyable for you, having a constant group of friends to perfect strategies during pvp. Winning matches will give your group points towards ranking up. Rank up points will give you access to PvP gear and abilities. ( Yes you can purchase different abilities that are solely used in PvP. These abilities also change depending on which nation you are from)
4 Light parties start at 4 members, so you will be able to handle all of the early dungeons. Parties are also flexible in the fact that you can have anywhere from 4-8 members in one.
5. With your size group you can take on and complete all relic gear quest. This gear willl get you ready for point #6
6. With 8 members you can take on the Primals in order to aquire primal weapons for your group. These weapons are essential for progress towards endgame.
7. The first real endgame challenge is The Crystal Tower and anyone familiar with FF lore knows that the tower has many levels that you progress upwards through. New levels will be added through patches as well. I mention this, because you dont have to beat the entire tower in one night. You can complete it 1 floor at a time, which should be perfect for players who have limited time to play. Yes the raids are 24 man, but once you have a solid group well geared it might be something you look into.
Lastly crafting should be very enjoyable with a group your size.
I am working on a group of my own. Hoping to have 5-10 people to run game with on opening day. Cant wait!
I strongly disagree that single group content is not real challenging endgame content. People spent months at the primals in 1.x learning them and finally beating them, same with the dungeons, and the relic quest. It is most definitely endgame for them as it is the pinnacle of the experience taking all their effort and being an ultimate goal for their playtime for an extended period of time.
You are correct. However this is not 1.0. The primals and relics are no longer the "ultimate goal". They now are just a stepping stone to the real endgame. Yoshi has said that their is a hierarchy and the primals are the bottom rung.
We have a new game with new content. The primals will be tough. But lets not kid ourselves... anything you can kill with 8 is alot easier than something that takes 24.
Wow 40 mans where alot more frustrating than the new 10 mans.
I have supported most of what you have said about FFXIV so far and you and I had some good conversations going. I want to explain to you why I personally do not want 24 man raids so you understand the point most people come from about the large raids. A little about my raiding background I have raided since Vanilla WoW up to Mop. I have raided in Rift and SWTOR and done everything from hardcore 3 to 5 nights a week from 8pm til early AM sometimes 4am. I have been a GM of 40, 25 and 20 man raiding guilds as well as a Raid Leader.
With that said I will tell you that I am personally burnt out on the larger raiding and from my experience in raiding is any game with larger than 16 people the guild takes a lot of work to run and manage. The raid group itself takes a lot of effort to manage. I have raided with hundreds if not a thousand people so far and I can tell you many of my friends going back as far as vanilla no longer have the drive to deal with the management or drama from large raids. I had more fun raiding 8 man SWTOR content even though it was not tough because I had a tight nit group of friends and had 0 drama and 0 effort in manage a major guild structure. I was able to get by with 2 8 man raid groups we even did 16 man and that took little management on the Guild and raid group that I ever had before.
I personally have no more time to spend on raid management, none of my friends do either and I am trying to get all of them to come to FFXIV. I can tell you that if raids were either 8 man 12 man or 16 man we would do them with little effort placed on running a guild/FC. This is because it’s easier to get the same type of players we are vs having to recruit double our numbers and kicking ¾ of the people we invite because most of them cause more trouble than they are worth. If raids are able to be scaled from 8 to 24 man that gives options to players like myself who like the game want to play in groups however don’t want to have large raid groups. It also allows people who want large hardcore content to have it as well. The problem is not tough content the problem is people management which over time has become pointless to many MMO players which is often why they complain for Solo content. The Fix is let content scale so if a FC has 12 people on they take all 12, if they have 15 take 15. There is no need to recruit everyone and their brother to get 24 people to raid. FCs can be way more selective recruiting finding the right fits for their guild vs having to take a body.
FF mmos are different from games like WoW, in the fact that the game designers didnt make endgame for "everyone"
FFXI is a perfect example. The relic weapons were and still are the baddest weapons in game. They were head and shoulders above anything else. Even with a perfect group helping you to aquire one(very few had such a group) it on average would take you a full year just to finish it!
Many were not happy about how tough it was to get these weapons, but the devs said the didnt make these weapons for everyone and their mother to be running around with. Just the hardcore elite. Same went for the gear dropped by AV.
Now there were many, many other things for more casual players to do in FFXI.
I feel FFXIV and their 24 man raids are more of the same. Its not meant for the casual. There will still be tons of other enjoyable things to do. And you dont have to have the very best gear to be able to enjoy most things in the game.
Endgame however is for the hardcore. The devs have said that most groups will need to wipe 5-7 times before they figure things out. They have also said it will take months to complete.
I know this is not what the casual player wants to hear, but dont lose heart. The devs have said that once the first expansion is released and new endgame introduced, they will put in a "easy mode" for original endgame, so that the casual player will have a chance at those elements. Being a hardcore fan myself I'm hoping the easy mode loot will be just a little less shiny than that from original hard mode
Arctic,
I respect everything you said and that is coming from someone who is a casual now once a hardcore player. Yes I believe that the devs understand that casuals will and must get the same content that the hardcore players get. Yea I did hear they will put an easy mode in, which is good for players like myself. The only thing a person like me wants is to scale raids in that easy mode so I can being 12 or 15 friends depending on who is online tonight. I am a True MMO gamer and respect Hardcore players and think they should have their glory time because I once was there, however with that said if a game only has hardcores its much harder to get said money to create cutting edge end game. Which is why Casuals must be catered to after the hardcore.
Edit
I learned that you need both casuals and hardcores to make enough money to put out quality content on a consistent bases.
I have supported most of what you have said about FFXIV so far and you and I had some good conversations going. I want to explain to you why I personally do not want 24 man raids so you understand the point most people come from about the large raids. A little about my raiding background I have raided since Vanilla WoW up to Mop. I have raided in Rift and SWTOR and done everything from hardcore 3 to 5 nights a week from 8pm til early AM sometimes 4am. I have been a GM of 40, 25 and 20 man raiding guilds as well as a Raid Leader.
With that said I will tell you that I am personally burnt out on the larger raiding and from my experience in raiding is any game with larger than 16 people the guild takes a lot of work to run and manage. The raid group itself takes a lot of effort to manage. I have raided with hundreds if not a thousand people so far and I can tell you many of my friends going back as far as vanilla no longer have the drive to deal with the management or drama from large raids. I had more fun raiding 8 man SWTOR content even though it was not tough because I had a tight nit group of friends and had 0 drama and 0 effort in manage a major guild structure. I was able to get by with 2 8 man raid groups we even did 16 man and that took little management on the Guild and raid group that I ever had before.
I personally have no more time to spend on raid management, none of my friends do either and I am trying to get all of them to come to FFXIV. I can tell you that if raids were either 8 man 12 man or 16 man we would do them with little effort placed on running a guild/FC. This is because it’s easier to get the same type of players we are vs having to recruit double our numbers and kicking ¾ of the people we invite because most of them cause more trouble than they are worth. If raids are able to be scaled from 8 to 24 man that gives options to players like myself who like the game want to play in groups however don’t want to have large raid groups. It also allows people who want large hardcore content to have it as well. The problem is not tough content the problem is people management which over time has become pointless to many MMO players which is often why they complain for Solo content. The Fix is let content scale so if a FC has 12 people on they take all 12, if they have 15 take 15. There is no need to recruit everyone and their brother to get 24 people to raid. FCs can be way more selective recruiting finding the right fits for their guild vs having to take a body.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
Edit: By they way... even being a hardcore player during my FFXI days, I still never got my hands on a fully upgraded relic weapon. I could never seem to get enough days off work to put in the effort required. Yet I still would not ask the devs to make it easier. ( though they did with that rediculous lvl 99 cap)
I have supported most of what you have said about FFXIV so far and you and I had some good conversations going. I want to explain to you why I personally do not want 24 man raids so you understand the point most people come from about the large raids. A little about my raiding background I have raided since Vanilla WoW up to Mop. I have raided in Rift and SWTOR and done everything from hardcore 3 to 5 nights a week from 8pm til early AM sometimes 4am. I have been a GM of 40, 25 and 20 man raiding guilds as well as a Raid Leader.
With that said I will tell you that I am personally burnt out on the larger raiding and from my experience in raiding is any game with larger than 16 people the guild takes a lot of work to run and manage. The raid group itself takes a lot of effort to manage. I have raided with hundreds if not a thousand people so far and I can tell you many of my friends going back as far as vanilla no longer have the drive to deal with the management or drama from large raids. I had more fun raiding 8 man SWTOR content even though it was not tough because I had a tight nit group of friends and had 0 drama and 0 effort in manage a major guild structure. I was able to get by with 2 8 man raid groups we even did 16 man and that took little management on the Guild and raid group that I ever had before.
I personally have no more time to spend on raid management, none of my friends do either and I am trying to get all of them to come to FFXIV. I can tell you that if raids were either 8 man 12 man or 16 man we would do them with little effort placed on running a guild/FC. This is because it’s easier to get the same type of players we are vs having to recruit double our numbers and kicking ¾ of the people we invite because most of them cause more trouble than they are worth. If raids are able to be scaled from 8 to 24 man that gives options to players like myself who like the game want to play in groups however don’t want to have large raid groups. It also allows people who want large hardcore content to have it as well. The problem is not tough content the problem is people management which over time has become pointless to many MMO players which is often why they complain for Solo content. The Fix is let content scale so if a FC has 12 people on they take all 12, if they have 15 take 15. There is no need to recruit everyone and their brother to get 24 people to raid. FCs can be way more selective recruiting finding the right fits for their guild vs having to take a body.
That's great for you if you only have 8 friends. You have a perfect static, hopefully they are super reliable and they are online every single time you want to do raid content. But if you have 10 friends, or 9 friends even, what a shitty thing (in my opinion) to do to that 9th friend having them being a backup for you.
I know some people are fine with being backups like that, they just want to be carried into content after progression is over so they can get loot. I play with people who want the whole experience, there is more than 8 of us, and unfortunately there are not perfect cliques of 8.
Raiding might not be fun for you, I'm a raid leader I find it fun. I don't invite "bodies" I know everyone in my FC, I spend time with them, I play with them outside of raids, I care about their progression and most importantly want them to enjoy the game with us. In 1.0 I had a terrible time. Many shells had a primary static group that they progressed through content with first, this is the optimal setup for progression in MMO's where single group content is the primary form of delivery for gear, but I couldn't bring myself to do that.
I can't tell one of my friends that they are no longer part of the "real" LS, they are just there to fill in if everyone else is unavailable and maybe we'll get them gear or whatever. My only other option was to create multiple groups to run content simultaneously. As a raid leader for many years, this was stressful and not fun at all.
First of all you have to balance groups equally or else you are just going back to the "main static" "backups" formula, this is much more challenging than forming a single large group that can work off of eachother. Second you still have the problem of people logging out/in, being unavailable, and having to re-balance just as you do with one group except now you have to try to keep two groups going. If you fail at anytime you suddenly have 7 people sitting out, or unable to win. They are unhappy and they are not having fun.
I spent most of my time in our events in 1.0 sitting out so that others could experience the encounters I loved, I spent many hours preparing people for the fights, going over our strategies, and then I sat out until I was absolutely needed and another couldn't take my place.
I just want to be able to play together with all my friends, not pick and choose who to exclude (regularly). I don't mind sitting out some of the time, and I know many of them don't either. But there is a difference between sitting out of a large raid because you have to roster more than the group limit to account for the fact that not everyone can have 100% attendance, and regularly being sat out of an entire progression because it is ONLY suited to a small group and obviously those that have fought it the most, are the most experienced, and best equipped to win.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
I understand the point of end game. The problem is when you have kids, a family, and a career all of those come first. With the average MMO player being 36 only 3 years older then me and 54% of the MMO community falling into that category you cannot ignore them as much as people want. I can tell you from being a leader for so long that as soon as people hit were I am at the large raid groups mean nothing a long with the MMO. So here is SE problem they either accept it or they loose $13 a month from people who do not and will not do large raids ever again. One just needs to look at WoW and see that 2% of the raiding guilds on the top raiding server are 25 man raiding guilds. People can be so against it all they want however Money talks. Today's MMO players are different and SE is putting all of its money on end game and if they ignore the casual player now and force 24 man groups it will not work. Look at Rift, they were one of the harder core raiding games out in the last 5 years, with the focus on 20 man raiding. Only 6 to 12 raiding guilds ever toughed end game in 20 man content because the effort needed to do it is no longer worth it. I respect that you like large content raids however times have changed.
I have supported most of what you have said about FFXIV so far and you and I had some good conversations going. I want to explain to you why I personally do not want 24 man raids so you understand the point most people come from about the large raids. A little about my raiding background I have raided since Vanilla WoW up to Mop. I have raided in Rift and SWTOR and done everything from hardcore 3 to 5 nights a week from 8pm til early AM sometimes 4am. I have been a GM of 40, 25 and 20 man raiding guilds as well as a Raid Leader.
With that said I will tell you that I am personally burnt out on the larger raiding and from my experience in raiding is any game with larger than 16 people the guild takes a lot of work to run and manage. The raid group itself takes a lot of effort to manage. I have raided with hundreds if not a thousand people so far and I can tell you many of my friends going back as far as vanilla no longer have the drive to deal with the management or drama from large raids. I had more fun raiding 8 man SWTOR content even though it was not tough because I had a tight nit group of friends and had 0 drama and 0 effort in manage a major guild structure. I was able to get by with 2 8 man raid groups we even did 16 man and that took little management on the Guild and raid group that I ever had before.
I personally have no more time to spend on raid management, none of my friends do either and I am trying to get all of them to come to FFXIV. I can tell you that if raids were either 8 man 12 man or 16 man we would do them with little effort placed on running a guild/FC. This is because it’s easier to get the same type of players we are vs having to recruit double our numbers and kicking ¾ of the people we invite because most of them cause more trouble than they are worth. If raids are able to be scaled from 8 to 24 man that gives options to players like myself who like the game want to play in groups however don’t want to have large raid groups. It also allows people who want large hardcore content to have it as well. The problem is not tough content the problem is people management which over time has become pointless to many MMO players which is often why they complain for Solo content. The Fix is let content scale so if a FC has 12 people on they take all 12, if they have 15 take 15. There is no need to recruit everyone and their brother to get 24 people to raid. FCs can be way more selective recruiting finding the right fits for their guild vs having to take a body.
That's great for you if you only have 8 friends. You have a perfect static, hopefully they are super reliable and they are online every single time you want to do raid content. But if you have 10 friends, or 9 friends even, what a shitty thing (in my opinion) to do to that 9th friend having them being a backup for you.
I know some people are fine with being backups like that, they just want to be carried into content after progression is over so they can get loot. I play with people who want the whole experience, there is more than 8 of us, and unfortunately there are not perfect cliques of 8.
Raiding might not be fun for you, I'm a raid leader I find it fun. I don't invite "bodies" I know everyone in my FC, I spend time with them, I play with them outside of raids, I care about their progression and most importantly want them to enjoy the game with us. In 1.0 I had a terrible time. Many shells had a primary static group that they progressed through content with first, this is the optimal setup for progression in MMO's where single group content is the primary form of delivery for gear, but I couldn't bring myself to do that.
I can't tell one of my friends that they are no longer part of the "real" LS, they are just there to fill in if everyone else is unavailable and maybe we'll get them gear or whatever. My only other option was to create multiple groups to run content simultaneously. As a raid leader for many years, this was stressful and not fun at all.
First of all you have to balance groups equally or else you are just going back to the "main static" "backups" formula, this is much more challenging than forming a single large group that can work off of eachother. Second you still have the problem of people logging out/in, being unavailable, and having to re-balance just as you do with one group except now you have to try to keep two groups going. If you fail at anytime you suddenly have 7 people sitting out, or unable to win. They are unhappy and they are not having fun.
I spent most of my time in our events in 1.0 sitting out so that others could experience the encounters I loved, I spent many hours preparing people for the fights, going over our strategies, and then I sat out until I was absolutely needed and another couldn't take my place.
I just want to be able to play together with all my friends, not pick and choose who to exclude (regularly). I don't mind sitting out some of the time, and I know many of them don't either. But there is a difference between sitting out of a large raid because you have to roster more than the group limit to account for the fact that not everyone can have 100% attendance, and regularly being sat out of an entire progression because it is ONLY suited to a small group and obviously those that have fought it the most, are the most experienced, and best equipped to win.
I understand the sitting out of people. That has always been my issue with the smaller groups as well other than when I had the SWTOR guild. We had 12 people rotating every week because how busy all our lives were and not 1 person cared that they sat out a week because the next week they were back in. SWTOR is a game that, that type of rotation does work in very well. Thats why I say Scale the raids, you can take any number from 8 to 24. WoW is going in the direction now, I have friends trying to pull me back there because of it, however I am bored with WoW period. If They scaled the raids from 8 to 24 man its a win win for both sides because guilds no longer had to be so large or they need to merge into another guild or just quit the content.
I have supported most of what you have said about FFXIV so far and you and I had some good conversations going. I want to explain to you why I personally do not want 24 man raids so you understand the point most people come from about the large raids. A little about my raiding background I have raided since Vanilla WoW up to Mop. I have raided in Rift and SWTOR and done everything from hardcore 3 to 5 nights a week from 8pm til early AM sometimes 4am. I have been a GM of 40, 25 and 20 man raiding guilds as well as a Raid Leader.
With that said I will tell you that I am personally burnt out on the larger raiding and from my experience in raiding is any game with larger than 16 people the guild takes a lot of work to run and manage. The raid group itself takes a lot of effort to manage. I have raided with hundreds if not a thousand people so far and I can tell you many of my friends going back as far as vanilla no longer have the drive to deal with the management or drama from large raids. I had more fun raiding 8 man SWTOR content even though it was not tough because I had a tight nit group of friends and had 0 drama and 0 effort in manage a major guild structure. I was able to get by with 2 8 man raid groups we even did 16 man and that took little management on the Guild and raid group that I ever had before.
I personally have no more time to spend on raid management, none of my friends do either and I am trying to get all of them to come to FFXIV. I can tell you that if raids were either 8 man 12 man or 16 man we would do them with little effort placed on running a guild/FC. This is because it’s easier to get the same type of players we are vs having to recruit double our numbers and kicking ¾ of the people we invite because most of them cause more trouble than they are worth. If raids are able to be scaled from 8 to 24 man that gives options to players like myself who like the game want to play in groups however don’t want to have large raid groups. It also allows people who want large hardcore content to have it as well. The problem is not tough content the problem is people management which over time has become pointless to many MMO players which is often why they complain for Solo content. The Fix is let content scale so if a FC has 12 people on they take all 12, if they have 15 take 15. There is no need to recruit everyone and their brother to get 24 people to raid. FCs can be way more selective recruiting finding the right fits for their guild vs having to take a body.
That's great for you if you only have 8 friends. You have a perfect static, hopefully they are super reliable and they are online every single time you want to do raid content. But if you have 10 friends, or 9 friends even, what a shitty thing (in my opinion) to do to that 9th friend having them being a backup for you.
I know some people are fine with being backups like that, they just want to be carried into content after progression is over so they can get loot. I play with people who want the whole experience, there is more than 8 of us, and unfortunately there are not perfect cliques of 8.
Raiding might not be fun for you, I'm a raid leader I find it fun. I don't invite "bodies" I know everyone in my FC, I spend time with them, I play with them outside of raids, I care about their progression and most importantly want them to enjoy the game with us. In 1.0 I had a terrible time. Many shells had a primary static group that they progressed through content with first, this is the optimal setup for progression in MMO's where single group content is the primary form of delivery for gear, but I couldn't bring myself to do that.
I can't tell one of my friends that they are no longer part of the "real" LS, they are just there to fill in if everyone else is unavailable and maybe we'll get them gear or whatever. My only other option was to create multiple groups to run content simultaneously. As a raid leader for many years, this was stressful and not fun at all.
First of all you have to balance groups equally or else you are just going back to the "main static" "backups" formula, this is much more challenging than forming a single large group that can work off of eachother. Second you still have the problem of people logging out/in, being unavailable, and having to re-balance just as you do with one group except now you have to try to keep two groups going. If you fail at anytime you suddenly have 7 people sitting out, or unable to win. They are unhappy and they are not having fun.
I spent most of my time in our events in 1.0 sitting out so that others could experience the encounters I loved, I spent many hours preparing people for the fights, going over our strategies, and then I sat out until I was absolutely needed and another couldn't take my place.
I just want to be able to play together with all my friends, not pick and choose who to exclude (regularly). I don't mind sitting out some of the time, and I know many of them don't either. But there is a difference between sitting out of a large raid because you have to roster more than the group limit to account for the fact that not everyone can have 100% attendance, and regularly being sat out of an entire progression because it is ONLY suited to a small group and obviously those that have fought it the most, are the most experienced, and best equipped to win.
I understand the sitting out of people. That has always been my issue with the smaller groups as well other than when I had the SWTOR guild. We had 12 people rotating every week because how busy all our lives were and not 1 person cared that they sat out a week because the next week they were back in. SWTOR is a game that, that type of rotation does work in very well. Thats why I say Scale the raids, you can take any number from 8 to 24. WoW is going in the direction now, I have friends trying to pull me back there because of it, however I am bored with WoW period. If They scaled the raids from 8 to 24 man its a win win for both sides because guilds no longer had to be so large or they need to merge into another guild or just quit the content.
It's not a win-win for the content or the 24 person groups. Real alliance content needs to utilize the full raid in more than just providing extra damage and heals. There are typically more mobs to handle, by different tanks/groups, and the whole dynamic of combat is capable of changing from raid to raid as you build a raid to suit those encounters.
With "scaling" content, you typically just have more hit points or less depending on the number of people. The result is a more lackluster experience for larger groups. Sure the developer can individually design raids for both 8 and 24 with completely different mechanics, mobs, etc. and that is what they should do. For what it is worth that is what Yoshida wants to do with this game (taken from his comments regarding "hard modes" not simply being HP/mob count scaling but entirely different experiences).
MAYBE they could release 8 person encounter versions for Crystal Tower/Labyrinth of Bahamut. They have already said that as this content is beaten by "hardcores" they will release a scaled down version so eventually everyone can experience the content. Then eventually once it is no longer frequented by groups they will release all that content as FATE so even those people who can't stand to play with even 1 other person inside their group can experience them.
THAT is the compromise I would be willing to make. I'm fine with others accessing content, I'm even fine with my gear becoming "non-exclusive" and "easy to get" months down the road, I'm not an elitist who just wants things all to myself. I just don't want the one thing I enjoy taken away (which is what the most vocal of raid critics would like to see). If they take away large group content, or they simply make it unpopular due to lackluster design then I foresee myself not staying with this game for another two years+.
I can't enjoy a game knowing people I am friends with, and whose company I enjoy are excluded. I definitely would have no interest in leading a Free Company any longer being saddled with that burden again. I probably could join someone else's and make my way into the static, but I'd always know that by doing that my actions likely led to several people having to quit the game forever and miss out on something they enjoy simply because they no longer have anyone to play with.
This may not be something EST'ers can understand with your billion+ players and guilds, but those of us on the West Coast, or with jobs/responsibilities that do not allow us to play more popular EST times (2pm-5pm start times for PST people meaning most PST players can't raid with you all unless they quit their jobs) we have a limited # of gamers to play with. When you break up our communities, and divide us into smaller and smaller groups people get left out for good.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
I understand the point of end game. The problem is when you have kids, a family, and a career all of those come first. With the average MMO player being 36 only 3 years older then me and 54% of the MMO community falling into that category you cannot ignore them as much as people want. I can tell you from being a leader for so long that as soon as people hit were I am at the large raid groups mean nothing a long with the MMO. So here is SE problem they either accept it or they loose $13 a month from people who do not and will not do large raids ever again. One just needs to look at WoW and see that 2% of the raiding guilds on the top raiding server are 25 man raiding guilds. People can be so against it all they want however Money talks. Today's MMO players are different and SE is putting all of its money on end game and if they ignore the casual player now and force 24 man groups it will not work. Look at Rift, they were one of the harder core raiding games out in the last 5 years, with the focus on 20 man raiding. Only 6 to 12 raiding guilds ever toughed end game in 20 man content because the effort needed to do it is no longer worth it. I respect that you like large content raids however times have changed.
You make a very good point. Though I dont have children, being 34, most of lifes responsibilities dont afford me the time i had in my 20s.
Let me ask you this though. What happens if FFXIV adopts the 8 man raid same as Wows 10?
I played Wow for for over a year. I enjoyed many aspects of it, but my main problem was being from FFXI (my first mmo) I could finish everything too quickly.
I once started playing at 11am on a saturday, and by midnight, i had gathered every herb i needed for alchemy through herbalism and leveled alchemy from 1 - 525.
After a couple of weeks I had good enough gear to tank Deathwing after reaching lvl 80. I even skipped Firelands. After beating deathwing a couple of times with my 10 man... there was really nothing much to do, exept PvP or start another alt.
So I quit. MoP came out a couple months later. I started up again and after 2 months it was same old story. Nothing to do that interested me.
Previously I had played FFXi for 5 years straight, because the game always had challenges that were just beyond my reach.
If FFXIV allowes the casual player easy access to everything, people with more time on their hands will have nothing to do after a couple of months. For a new game with limited continent, this is very bad for business.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
I understand the point of end game. The problem is when you have kids, a family, and a career all of those come first. With the average MMO player being 36 only 3 years older then me and 54% of the MMO community falling into that category you cannot ignore them as much as people want. I can tell you from being a leader for so long that as soon as people hit were I am at the large raid groups mean nothing a long with the MMO. So here is SE problem they either accept it or they loose $13 a month from people who do not and will not do large raids ever again. One just needs to look at WoW and see that 2% of the raiding guilds on the top raiding server are 25 man raiding guilds. People can be so against it all they want however Money talks. Today's MMO players are different and SE is putting all of its money on end game and if they ignore the casual player now and force 24 man groups it will not work. Look at Rift, they were one of the harder core raiding games out in the last 5 years, with the focus on 20 man raiding. Only 6 to 12 raiding guilds ever toughed end game in 20 man content because the effort needed to do it is no longer worth it. I respect that you like large content raids however times have changed.
You make a very good point. Though I dont have children, being 34, most of lifes responsibilities dont afford me the time i had in my 20s.
Let me ask you this though. What happens if FFXIV adopts the 8 man raid same as Wows 10?
I played Wow for for over a year. I enjoyed many aspects of it, but my main problem was being from FFXI (my first mmo) I could finish everything too quickly.
I once started playing at 11am on a saturday, and by midnight, i had gathered every herb i needed for alchemy through herbalism and leveled alchemy from 1 - 525.
After a couple of weeks I had good enough gear to tank Deathwing after reaching lvl 80. I even skipped Firelands. After beating deathwing a couple of times with my 10 man... there was really nothing much to do, exept PvP or start another alt.
So I quit. MoP came out a couple months later. I started up again and after 2 months it was same old story. Nothing to do that interested me.
Previously I had played FFXi for 5 years straight, because the game always had challenges that were just beyond my reach.
If FFXIV allowes the casual player easy access to everything, people with more time on their hands will have nothing to do after a couple of months. For a new game with limited continent, this is very bad for business.
I'd be more than happy for there to be a hardcore mode for hardcore players. Even for a casual player like me that will still be something to maybe eventually aim for. Also i wouldn't mind waiting 3-6 months for scaled down content either I'd simple like to experience it at some point.
I think a few people have hit the nail on the head there needs to be a balance you need the hardcore gamers to go out and clear challenging and rewarding content. Then a few months down the line let the casuals have a pop.
I'll happily admit I've become a bit of an MMO "noob" since i quit WOW after WOTLK I've not played end game content for maybe 5 years now but from posts like this I'm seeing what the game does offer the casual player and i think I'll be more than happy with gearing up and challenging the 8 man content Housing, professions and other stuff.
The everything has to be catered to casuals is one of the main issues with gaming today. Not just only in mmos but gaming in general.
MMOs at endgame should have a strong focus on building a guild and coming together to take down epic bosses and clear challanging content. You lost both the guild feeling and the epicness when you scale down to low man. <10 people in my books.
MMOs should have content for everyone. Just as many hardcores hate the casual elements, the casuals should expect to hate some of the hardcore elements in a game. Keeping both the casuals happy and the hardcores happy will make the game over all better in the end. This cannot be achieved with the same content. Devs just have to have enough content for everyone.Gaming is no different then a sport in real life. If you are playing something casual, only for fun do not expect to be at the level of someone putting in 30-40hrs a week into it.
Having everything designed for casuals rips guilds apart because it forces you to static group more or less (which is the anti guild), and the content last a fraction of the time if you play more then 10-12hrs a week. Wow was brought up earlier and it is a great example of the issue. at any one time you only have 2 months of content... then you are forced to log off and wait. I do not know why people accept this, a mmo should be a never ending game. They should not be like offline games with DLC.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
I understand the point of end game. The problem is when you have kids, a family, and a career all of those come first. With the average MMO player being 36 only 3 years older then me and 54% of the MMO community falling into that category you cannot ignore them as much as people want. I can tell you from being a leader for so long that as soon as people hit were I am at the large raid groups mean nothing a long with the MMO. So here is SE problem they either accept it or they loose $13 a month from people who do not and will not do large raids ever again. One just needs to look at WoW and see that 2% of the raiding guilds on the top raiding server are 25 man raiding guilds. People can be so against it all they want however Money talks. Today's MMO players are different and SE is putting all of its money on end game and if they ignore the casual player now and force 24 man groups it will not work. Look at Rift, they were one of the harder core raiding games out in the last 5 years, with the focus on 20 man raiding. Only 6 to 12 raiding guilds ever toughed end game in 20 man content because the effort needed to do it is no longer worth it. I respect that you like large content raids however times have changed.
You make a very good point. Though I dont have children, being 34, most of lifes responsibilities dont afford me the time i had in my 20s.
Let me ask you this though. What happens if FFXIV adopts the 8 man raid same as Wows 10?
I played Wow for for over a year. I enjoyed many aspects of it, but my main problem was being from FFXI (my first mmo) I could finish everything too quickly.
I once started playing at 11am on a saturday, and by midnight, i had gathered every herb i needed for alchemy through herbalism and leveled alchemy from 1 - 525.
After a couple of weeks I had good enough gear to tank Deathwing after reaching lvl 80. I even skipped Firelands. After beating deathwing a couple of times with my 10 man... there was really nothing much to do, exept PvP or start another alt.
So I quit. MoP came out a couple months later. I started up again and after 2 months it was same old story. Nothing to do that interested me.
Previously I had played FFXi for 5 years straight, because the game always had challenges that were just beyond my reach.
If FFXIV allowes the casual player easy access to everything, people with more time on their hands will have nothing to do after a couple of months. For a new game with limited continent, this is very bad for business.
I'd be more than happy for there to be a hardcore mode for hardcore players. Even for a casual player like me that will still be something to maybe eventually aim for. Also i wouldn't mind waiting 3-6 months for scaled down content either I'd simple like to experience it at some point.
I think a few people have hit the nail on the head there needs to be a balance you need the hardcore gamers to go out and clear challenging and rewarding content. Then a few months down the line let the casuals have a pop.
I'll happily admit I've become a bit of an MMO "noob" since i quit WOW after WOTLK I've not played end game content for maybe 5 years now but from posts like this I'm seeing what the game does offer the casual player and i think I'll be more than happy with gearing up and challenging the 8 man content Housing, professions and other stuff.
I am with you on that I dont mind waiting but I do not want to be forced into a 24 man raid to see the content.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
I understand the point of end game. The problem is when you have kids, a family, and a career all of those come first. With the average MMO player being 36 only 3 years older then me and 54% of the MMO community falling into that category you cannot ignore them as much as people want. I can tell you from being a leader for so long that as soon as people hit were I am at the large raid groups mean nothing a long with the MMO. So here is SE problem they either accept it or they loose $13 a month from people who do not and will not do large raids ever again. One just needs to look at WoW and see that 2% of the raiding guilds on the top raiding server are 25 man raiding guilds. People can be so against it all they want however Money talks. Today's MMO players are different and SE is putting all of its money on end game and if they ignore the casual player now and force 24 man groups it will not work. Look at Rift, they were one of the harder core raiding games out in the last 5 years, with the focus on 20 man raiding. Only 6 to 12 raiding guilds ever toughed end game in 20 man content because the effort needed to do it is no longer worth it. I respect that you like large content raids however times have changed.
You make a very good point. Though I dont have children, being 34, most of lifes responsibilities dont afford me the time i had in my 20s.
Let me ask you this though. What happens if FFXIV adopts the 8 man raid same as Wows 10?
I played Wow for for over a year. I enjoyed many aspects of it, but my main problem was being from FFXI (my first mmo) I could finish everything too quickly.
I once started playing at 11am on a saturday, and by midnight, i had gathered every herb i needed for alchemy through herbalism and leveled alchemy from 1 - 525.
After a couple of weeks I had good enough gear to tank Deathwing after reaching lvl 80. I even skipped Firelands. After beating deathwing a couple of times with my 10 man... there was really nothing much to do, exept PvP or start another alt.
So I quit. MoP came out a couple months later. I started up again and after 2 months it was same old story. Nothing to do that interested me.
Previously I had played FFXi for 5 years straight, because the game always had challenges that were just beyond my reach.
If FFXIV allowes the casual player easy access to everything, people with more time on their hands will have nothing to do after a couple of months. For a new game with limited continent, this is very bad for business.
I'd be more than happy for there to be a hardcore mode for hardcore players. Even for a casual player like me that will still be something to maybe eventually aim for. Also i wouldn't mind waiting 3-6 months for scaled down content either I'd simple like to experience it at some point.
I think a few people have hit the nail on the head there needs to be a balance you need the hardcore gamers to go out and clear challenging and rewarding content. Then a few months down the line let the casuals have a pop.
I'll happily admit I've become a bit of an MMO "noob" since i quit WOW after WOTLK I've not played end game content for maybe 5 years now but from posts like this I'm seeing what the game does offer the casual player and i think I'll be more than happy with gearing up and challenging the 8 man content Housing, professions and other stuff.
I don't know if you caught my post above Artic Moon's but I just want to point again that ALL CONTENT will be accessible to casuals.
If you do not play "hardcore" then you will not be consuming content at the rate it is released anyways, so the fact that something like Crystal Tower and Bahamut are 24 person raids shouldn't be an issue for people who can't play them. They have plenty of content to do, and once they finish that those two zones will likely be retuned, the "hardcore" will move on to new stuff, and everyone will get a chance to experience everything.
This was even the case in 1.0. The first dungeon Dzamael Darkhold (patch 1.18) was difficult when it was first released, it was "cutting edge", but by 1.20 it had been retuned so that 4-8 people could do it. It wasn't "faceroll" easy either, people still wiped but they didn't even need a full group (8 people) to do it any longer at 50. That was with the skeleton crew that was developing for 1.0 while they simultaneously built up ARR.
In ARR they are going to develop much more resources to content, keeping it fresh, and opening it up to wider groups of players. The FATE system is really perfect for this. Take primals, once primals are no longer being farmed in their instances by groups they will move them to the open world as FATE.
But this is not just a gimmick, it not only makes the content accessible but there is reason for people to still do the content. Those primals once defeated will be able to be summoned by the group to unleash a powerful attack (maybe in the PvP zones etc., so powerful it changes the weather in the zone and everyone knows what has just happened).
I think Yoshida has the right balance in mind for hardcore/casual, most MMO's today have neglected the "hardcore" to appease the casual and most MMO's in the past did the same to casuals. Here you have a developer who is trying to genuinely make everyone happy regardless of who gives him more money at the end of the day (which is why games today are going casual only, like LOTRO dropping all group content... I just never thought I'd see the day a developer would do that).
Originally posted by Robokapp the whole point of guilds is so they are not random people but people alike who bond together for common interests. If you're guilded with random people you need a new guild.
Agreed, I think OP needs a new guild recruitment officer.
Myself I play in 2 types of guilds: either with IRL friends and their friends or with people I and other officers carefully recruits from PUGs and other people we meet during playing. And we don't really pick up the best playing people, rather nice players who are willing to learn the game together with us.
I have in fact recruited many noobs and learned them the ropes and most of them have become excellent players without becoming jerks. Don't recruit too many players too fast and try to pick people who seems nice instead of someone with cool gear. Train your noobs up and you are set for a good guild.
Bad guilds random invites people and that rarely turns out good.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
Now I get the opposite effect as you. When you do 8 man content you have loads of people sitting out. Was the main issue running my guild had with XIV all the way until shutdown for ARR. You would end up having 19-21 people on at once causing 3-7 people to sit out of the group every night. Try logging in for Guild Events and be told yea filled up we will rep you in a few runs (1hr usually). Bring in alliance content and that 21 people can all just walk into it. 1 group no waiting doing things as a whole guild.
The large alliance content actually easily allow the group to participate without waiting. And there are millions of people who still want large group content, just as there is ton of people who hate WoW and tons of people who hate action combat. People like different things in a mmo. Why I stated there needs to be content for everyone. Casuals should not get everything. There is absolutly no reason to not have both low and high man content in a mmo.
Thanks for the thread OP A lot of the info provided by others have helped ease my fears. It looks like there will be loads to do for a non raider at endgame and that is all I ask for in a MMO. I've got nothing against large scale raids and I'm glad they will be getting content to enjoy. As long as future content is plentiful and varied for different playstyles, I can see myself subbing for a long time.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
Now I get the opposite effect as you. When you do 8 man content you have loads of people sitting out. Was the main issue running my guild had with XIV all the way until shutdown for ARR. You would end up having 19-21 people on at once causing 3-7 people to sit out of the group every night. Try logging in for Guild Events and be told yea filled up we will rep you in a few runs (1hr usually). Bring in alliance content and that 21 people can all just walk into it. 1 group no waiting doing things as a whole guild.
The large alliance content actually easily allow the group to participate without waiting. And there are millions of people who still want large group content, just as there is ton of people who hate WoW and tons of people who hate action combat. People like different things in a mmo. Why I stated there needs to be content for everyone. Casuals should not get everything. There is absolutly no reason to not have both low and high man content in a mmo.
No there are not Millions of players that want Large group content. LOTRO was 24 man raids could not successed with large raids cut down to 12 man raids. EQ2 Same thing from 24 down to 12. WOW the best raiding server has 2% of all raiding guilds on that server raids 25 man content. RIFT only a half a dozen raiding guilds on each server raid 20 man raids? Large raids are dead as many people that want to say otherwise there are 0 games that main focus is on large raids because they do not work. Hell Even Terra started at 20 man and had to switch to 10 man raids because no one was raiding.
Now IF FFXIV scales raids from 8 to 24 people you almost never have to worry about a bench unless you want 24 people all the time. If the content is scaled to allow 8 to 24 players smaller FCs can recruit the right people and run things their way and large hardcore FCs can do that same.
Sorry People Keep defending large raids when all the evidence is against large raids as much as people want to tout that they are THE BEST. They are not, they are a management nightmare that few players today want to deal with. I know I use to run a 40 man guild and was a raid leader, I will never do that again.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
Now I get the opposite effect as you. When you do 8 man content you have loads of people sitting out. Was the main issue running my guild had with XIV all the way until shutdown for ARR. You would end up having 19-21 people on at once causing 3-7 people to sit out of the group every night. Try logging in for Guild Events and be told yea filled up we will rep you in a few runs (1hr usually). Bring in alliance content and that 21 people can all just walk into it. 1 group no waiting doing things as a whole guild.
The large alliance content actually easily allow the group to participate without waiting. And there are millions of people who still want large group content, just as there is ton of people who hate WoW and tons of people who hate action combat. People like different things in a mmo. Why I stated there needs to be content for everyone. Casuals should not get everything. There is absolutly no reason to not have both low and high man content in a mmo.
No there are not Millions of players that want Large group content. LOTRO was 24 man raids could not successed with large raids cut down to 12 man raids. EQ2 Same thing from 24 down to 12. WOW the best raiding server has 2% of all raiding guilds on that server raids 25 man content. RIFT only a half a dozen raiding guilds on each server raid 20 man raids? Large raids are dead as many people that want to say otherwise there are 0 games that main focus is on large raids because they do not work. Hell Even Terra started at 20 man and had to switch to 10 man raids because no one was raiding.
Now IF FFXIV scales raids from 8 to 24 people you almost never have to worry about a bench unless you want 24 people all the time. If the content is scaled to allow 8 to 24 players smaller FCs can recruit the right people and run things their way and large hardcore FCs can do that same.
Sorry People Keep defending large raids when all the evidence is against large raids as much as people want to tout that they are THE BEST. They are not, they are a management nightmare that few players today want to deal with. I know I use to run a 40 man guild and was a raid leader, I will never do that again.
Lord of the Rings Online recently announced they were no longer supporting group content.
Not just raid content, GROUP CONTENT.
Let's not use Lord of the Rings Online as a good example of MMO design trends ever again, okay?
Unless this is the inevitable conclusion you want us to reach in FFXIV also, in which case I will flip out and call you names.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
Now I get the opposite effect as you. When you do 8 man content you have loads of people sitting out. Was the main issue running my guild had with XIV all the way until shutdown for ARR. You would end up having 19-21 people on at once causing 3-7 people to sit out of the group every night. Try logging in for Guild Events and be told yea filled up we will rep you in a few runs (1hr usually). Bring in alliance content and that 21 people can all just walk into it. 1 group no waiting doing things as a whole guild.
The large alliance content actually easily allow the group to participate without waiting. And there are millions of people who still want large group content, just as there is ton of people who hate WoW and tons of people who hate action combat. People like different things in a mmo. Why I stated there needs to be content for everyone. Casuals should not get everything. There is absolutly no reason to not have both low and high man content in a mmo.
No there are not Millions of players that want Large group content. LOTRO was 24 man raids could not successed with large raids cut down to 12 man raids. EQ2 Same thing from 24 down to 12. WOW the best raiding server has 2% of all raiding guilds on that server raids 25 man content. RIFT only a half a dozen raiding guilds on each server raid 20 man raids? Large raids are dead as many people that want to say otherwise there are 0 games that main focus is on large raids because they do not work. Hell Even Terra started at 20 man and had to switch to 10 man raids because no one was raiding.
Now IF FFXIV scales raids from 8 to 24 people you almost never have to worry about a bench unless you want 24 people all the time. If the content is scaled to allow 8 to 24 players smaller FCs can recruit the right people and run things their way and large hardcore FCs can do that same.
Sorry People Keep defending large raids when all the evidence is against large raids as much as people want to tout that they are THE BEST. They are not, they are a management nightmare that few players today want to deal with. I know I use to run a 40 man guild and was a raid leader, I will never do that again.
Lord of the Rings Online recently announced they were no longer supporting group content.
Not just raid content, GROUP CONTENT.
Let's not use Lord of the Rings Online as a good example of MMO design trends ever again, okay?
The point is every MMO that wanted to say HEY WE HAVE LARGER RAID CONTENT as Rift, Lotro and EQ did has there cut the size of the raid groups down like LOTRO and EQ did and LOTRO cut everything group out. Or like Rift End game is 5 man instances because few players even touch the raids because there is little interest in the 10 mans because they do not drop the gear like the 20 mans do. Again I think Scaling 8 to 24 people would work well because its extremely flexible. Hell cause WoW is now doing Flex raids I have several of my friends want to go back there even though they do not want anything to do with WoW, because if they are not able to make a raid a week or 2 the raid can still function on some level. The core problem with set raid numbers is you must have a bench. It does not matter if its 8, 10, 16, 20, 24, 25, or 40 because how ever many people that are on that night you can take unless you have 25 on for a 24 max raid.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
Now I get the opposite effect as you. When you do 8 man content you have loads of people sitting out. Was the main issue running my guild had with XIV all the way until shutdown for ARR. You would end up having 19-21 people on at once causing 3-7 people to sit out of the group every night. Try logging in for Guild Events and be told yea filled up we will rep you in a few runs (1hr usually). Bring in alliance content and that 21 people can all just walk into it. 1 group no waiting doing things as a whole guild.
The large alliance content actually easily allow the group to participate without waiting. And there are millions of people who still want large group content, just as there is ton of people who hate WoW and tons of people who hate action combat. People like different things in a mmo. Why I stated there needs to be content for everyone. Casuals should not get everything. There is absolutly no reason to not have both low and high man content in a mmo.
No there are not Millions of players that want Large group content. LOTRO was 24 man raids could not successed with large raids cut down to 12 man raids. EQ2 Same thing from 24 down to 12. WOW the best raiding server has 2% of all raiding guilds on that server raids 25 man content. RIFT only a half a dozen raiding guilds on each server raid 20 man raids? Large raids are dead as many people that want to say otherwise there are 0 games that main focus is on large raids because they do not work. Hell Even Terra started at 20 man and had to switch to 10 man raids because no one was raiding.
Now IF FFXIV scales raids from 8 to 24 people you almost never have to worry about a bench unless you want 24 people all the time. If the content is scaled to allow 8 to 24 players smaller FCs can recruit the right people and run things their way and large hardcore FCs can do that same.
Sorry People Keep defending large raids when all the evidence is against large raids as much as people want to tout that they are THE BEST. They are not, they are a management nightmare that few players today want to deal with. I know I use to run a 40 man guild and was a raid leader, I will never do that again.
Lord of the Rings Online recently announced they were no longer supporting group content.
Not just raid content, GROUP CONTENT.
Let's not use Lord of the Rings Online as a good example of MMO design trends ever again, okay?
The point is every MMO that wanted to say HEY WE HAVE LARGER RAID CONTENT as Rift, Lotro and EQ did has there cut the size of the raid groups down like LOTRO and EQ did and LOTRO cut everything group out. Or like Rift End game is 5 man instances because few players even touch the raids because there is little interest in the 10 mans because they do not drop the gear like the 20 mans do. Again I think Scaling 8 to 24 people would work well because its extremely flexible. Hell cause WoW is now doing Flex raids I have several of my friends want to go back there even though they do not want anything to do with WoW, because if they are not able to make a raid a week or 2 the raid can still function on some level. The core problem with set raid numbers is you must have a bench. It does not matter if its 8, 10, 16, 20, 24, 25, or 40 because how ever many people that are on that night you can take unless you have 25 on for a 24 max raid.
The answer is not to do away with or minimize grouping in an MMORPG.
That is a terrrrrrrible idea, and I really don't see that EVER happening in a Final Fantasy Online game. Not ever, even in thirty years. The reason Turbine is no longer developing group content is because their game sucks, no one is playing it, and they don't want to put the effort into make good content suitable for groups anymore.
THEY GAVE UP.
Just like the trends towards F2P, people make bad games and then blame players for not "wanting X" even though "X" (grouping, raiding) are staples of the MMO community and no game without them has ever replicated the success or feeling grouping brings in an ONLINE RPG game.
LOTRO and RIFT are declining in quality rapidly, that is why people no longer do group content in them. Plus they have total trash F2P communities with people who rotate MMO's every other week, so of course they aren't going to join communities to be able to do large scale group content. They aren't MMO's hardly even anymore, and the people who play them have nothign in common with the MMO communities of the golden age of MMOs. The whole scene reeks and I want FFXIV to have NOTHING to do with that crap.
Comments
To OP,
I agree with you that guilds can become a nightmare when raids are in the 20+ man range. Right now it looks like the end game will be 24 man, however its possible they will do something more than just 24 man raids. There is alot of backlash on the Beta forums between people who want smaller raids and those people who want larger raids. I can tell you this if SE is looking at WoW as an example their 25 man raiding has basically went to the crapper and I think SE will pay attention to this. I was on Stormrage before I quit 2 months after Mop Dropped and they are the #1 Raiding server. With only 2% of all raiding guilds doing 25 man raids its hard to dispute that large raiding is gone though people that want large raids will never see it. I have a feeling that SE might do scaled raids because it would give people more of what they want vs strict numbers.
FF mmos are different from games like WoW, in the fact that the game designers didnt make endgame for "everyone"
FFXI is a perfect example. The relic weapons were and still are the baddest weapons in game. They were head and shoulders above anything else. Even with a perfect group helping you to aquire one(very few had such a group) it on average would take you a full year just to finish it!
Many were not happy about how tough it was to get these weapons, but the devs said the didnt make these weapons for everyone and their mother to be running around with. Just the hardcore elite. Same went for the gear dropped by AV.
Now there were many, many other things for more casual players to do in FFXI.
I feel FFXIV and their 24 man raids are more of the same. Its not meant for the casual. There will still be tons of other enjoyable things to do. And you dont have to have the very best gear to be able to enjoy most things in the game.
Endgame however is for the hardcore. The devs have said that most groups will need to wipe 5-7 times before they figure things out. They have also said it will take months to complete.
I know this is not what the casual player wants to hear, but dont lose heart. The devs have said that once the first expansion is released and new endgame introduced, they will put in a "easy mode" for original endgame, so that the casual player will have a chance at those elements. Being a hardcore fan myself I'm hoping the easy mode loot will be just a little less shiny than that from original hard mode
You are correct. However this is not 1.0. The primals and relics are no longer the "ultimate goal". They now are just a stepping stone to the real endgame. Yoshi has said that their is a hierarchy and the primals are the bottom rung.
We have a new game with new content. The primals will be tough. But lets not kid ourselves... anything you can kill with 8 is alot easier than something that takes 24.
Wow 40 mans where alot more frustrating than the new 10 mans.
To Murugan
I have supported most of what you have said about FFXIV so far and you and I had some good conversations going. I want to explain to you why I personally do not want 24 man raids so you understand the point most people come from about the large raids. A little about my raiding background I have raided since Vanilla WoW up to Mop. I have raided in Rift and SWTOR and done everything from hardcore 3 to 5 nights a week from 8pm til early AM sometimes 4am. I have been a GM of 40, 25 and 20 man raiding guilds as well as a Raid Leader.
With that said I will tell you that I am personally burnt out on the larger raiding and from my experience in raiding is any game with larger than 16 people the guild takes a lot of work to run and manage. The raid group itself takes a lot of effort to manage. I have raided with hundreds if not a thousand people so far and I can tell you many of my friends going back as far as vanilla no longer have the drive to deal with the management or drama from large raids. I had more fun raiding 8 man SWTOR content even though it was not tough because I had a tight nit group of friends and had 0 drama and 0 effort in manage a major guild structure. I was able to get by with 2 8 man raid groups we even did 16 man and that took little management on the Guild and raid group that I ever had before.
I personally have no more time to spend on raid management, none of my friends do either and I am trying to get all of them to come to FFXIV. I can tell you that if raids were either 8 man 12 man or 16 man we would do them with little effort placed on running a guild/FC. This is because it’s easier to get the same type of players we are vs having to recruit double our numbers and kicking ¾ of the people we invite because most of them cause more trouble than they are worth. If raids are able to be scaled from 8 to 24 man that gives options to players like myself who like the game want to play in groups however don’t want to have large raid groups. It also allows people who want large hardcore content to have it as well. The problem is not tough content the problem is people management which over time has become pointless to many MMO players which is often why they complain for Solo content. The Fix is let content scale so if a FC has 12 people on they take all 12, if they have 15 take 15. There is no need to recruit everyone and their brother to get 24 people to raid. FCs can be way more selective recruiting finding the right fits for their guild vs having to take a body.
Arctic,
I respect everything you said and that is coming from someone who is a casual now once a hardcore player. Yes I believe that the devs understand that casuals will and must get the same content that the hardcore players get. Yea I did hear they will put an easy mode in, which is good for players like myself. The only thing a person like me wants is to scale raids in that easy mode so I can being 12 or 15 friends depending on who is online tonight. I am a True MMO gamer and respect Hardcore players and think they should have their glory time because I once was there, however with that said if a game only has hardcores its much harder to get said money to create cutting edge end game. Which is why Casuals must be catered to after the hardcore.
Edit
I learned that you need both casuals and hardcores to make enough money to put out quality content on a consistent bases.
I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. I also think you are missing the point of endgame. Wow has spoiled todays mmo players. Endgame is to aquire the best of the best. Just like in real life the best isnt for everyone.
You cant walk into a porshe dealership and say "I really like that 911 you have there for 90k, I'd like you to make another version of that car thats exactly the same, exept its only 20k."
FFXIV endgame is 24 man. You arent going to be able to do it with less. If you want the best you'll have to work and sacrifice for it. This means your time, energy and yes... sometimes drama.
You dont have to have the best of engame to enjoy all the other elements of the game. I believe it is fair.
Edit: By they way... even being a hardcore player during my FFXI days, I still never got my hands on a fully upgraded relic weapon. I could never seem to get enough days off work to put in the effort required. Yet I still would not ask the devs to make it easier. ( though they did with that rediculous lvl 99 cap)
That's great for you if you only have 8 friends. You have a perfect static, hopefully they are super reliable and they are online every single time you want to do raid content. But if you have 10 friends, or 9 friends even, what a shitty thing (in my opinion) to do to that 9th friend having them being a backup for you.
I know some people are fine with being backups like that, they just want to be carried into content after progression is over so they can get loot. I play with people who want the whole experience, there is more than 8 of us, and unfortunately there are not perfect cliques of 8.
Raiding might not be fun for you, I'm a raid leader I find it fun. I don't invite "bodies" I know everyone in my FC, I spend time with them, I play with them outside of raids, I care about their progression and most importantly want them to enjoy the game with us. In 1.0 I had a terrible time. Many shells had a primary static group that they progressed through content with first, this is the optimal setup for progression in MMO's where single group content is the primary form of delivery for gear, but I couldn't bring myself to do that.
I can't tell one of my friends that they are no longer part of the "real" LS, they are just there to fill in if everyone else is unavailable and maybe we'll get them gear or whatever. My only other option was to create multiple groups to run content simultaneously. As a raid leader for many years, this was stressful and not fun at all.
First of all you have to balance groups equally or else you are just going back to the "main static" "backups" formula, this is much more challenging than forming a single large group that can work off of eachother. Second you still have the problem of people logging out/in, being unavailable, and having to re-balance just as you do with one group except now you have to try to keep two groups going. If you fail at anytime you suddenly have 7 people sitting out, or unable to win. They are unhappy and they are not having fun.
I spent most of my time in our events in 1.0 sitting out so that others could experience the encounters I loved, I spent many hours preparing people for the fights, going over our strategies, and then I sat out until I was absolutely needed and another couldn't take my place.
I just want to be able to play together with all my friends, not pick and choose who to exclude (regularly). I don't mind sitting out some of the time, and I know many of them don't either. But there is a difference between sitting out of a large raid because you have to roster more than the group limit to account for the fact that not everyone can have 100% attendance, and regularly being sat out of an entire progression because it is ONLY suited to a small group and obviously those that have fought it the most, are the most experienced, and best equipped to win.
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I understand the point of end game. The problem is when you have kids, a family, and a career all of those come first. With the average MMO player being 36 only 3 years older then me and 54% of the MMO community falling into that category you cannot ignore them as much as people want. I can tell you from being a leader for so long that as soon as people hit were I am at the large raid groups mean nothing a long with the MMO. So here is SE problem they either accept it or they loose $13 a month from people who do not and will not do large raids ever again. One just needs to look at WoW and see that 2% of the raiding guilds on the top raiding server are 25 man raiding guilds. People can be so against it all they want however Money talks. Today's MMO players are different and SE is putting all of its money on end game and if they ignore the casual player now and force 24 man groups it will not work. Look at Rift, they were one of the harder core raiding games out in the last 5 years, with the focus on 20 man raiding. Only 6 to 12 raiding guilds ever toughed end game in 20 man content because the effort needed to do it is no longer worth it. I respect that you like large content raids however times have changed.
I understand the sitting out of people. That has always been my issue with the smaller groups as well other than when I had the SWTOR guild. We had 12 people rotating every week because how busy all our lives were and not 1 person cared that they sat out a week because the next week they were back in. SWTOR is a game that, that type of rotation does work in very well. Thats why I say Scale the raids, you can take any number from 8 to 24. WoW is going in the direction now, I have friends trying to pull me back there because of it, however I am bored with WoW period. If They scaled the raids from 8 to 24 man its a win win for both sides because guilds no longer had to be so large or they need to merge into another guild or just quit the content.
Good job answering the OPs question.
It's not a win-win for the content or the 24 person groups. Real alliance content needs to utilize the full raid in more than just providing extra damage and heals. There are typically more mobs to handle, by different tanks/groups, and the whole dynamic of combat is capable of changing from raid to raid as you build a raid to suit those encounters.
With "scaling" content, you typically just have more hit points or less depending on the number of people. The result is a more lackluster experience for larger groups. Sure the developer can individually design raids for both 8 and 24 with completely different mechanics, mobs, etc. and that is what they should do. For what it is worth that is what Yoshida wants to do with this game (taken from his comments regarding "hard modes" not simply being HP/mob count scaling but entirely different experiences).
MAYBE they could release 8 person encounter versions for Crystal Tower/Labyrinth of Bahamut. They have already said that as this content is beaten by "hardcores" they will release a scaled down version so eventually everyone can experience the content. Then eventually once it is no longer frequented by groups they will release all that content as FATE so even those people who can't stand to play with even 1 other person inside their group can experience them.
THAT is the compromise I would be willing to make. I'm fine with others accessing content, I'm even fine with my gear becoming "non-exclusive" and "easy to get" months down the road, I'm not an elitist who just wants things all to myself. I just don't want the one thing I enjoy taken away (which is what the most vocal of raid critics would like to see). If they take away large group content, or they simply make it unpopular due to lackluster design then I foresee myself not staying with this game for another two years+.
I can't enjoy a game knowing people I am friends with, and whose company I enjoy are excluded. I definitely would have no interest in leading a Free Company any longer being saddled with that burden again. I probably could join someone else's and make my way into the static, but I'd always know that by doing that my actions likely led to several people having to quit the game forever and miss out on something they enjoy simply because they no longer have anyone to play with.
This may not be something EST'ers can understand with your billion+ players and guilds, but those of us on the West Coast, or with jobs/responsibilities that do not allow us to play more popular EST times (2pm-5pm start times for PST people meaning most PST players can't raid with you all unless they quit their jobs) we have a limited # of gamers to play with. When you break up our communities, and divide us into smaller and smaller groups people get left out for good.
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You make a very good point. Though I dont have children, being 34, most of lifes responsibilities dont afford me the time i had in my 20s.
Let me ask you this though. What happens if FFXIV adopts the 8 man raid same as Wows 10?
I played Wow for for over a year. I enjoyed many aspects of it, but my main problem was being from FFXI (my first mmo) I could finish everything too quickly.
I once started playing at 11am on a saturday, and by midnight, i had gathered every herb i needed for alchemy through herbalism and leveled alchemy from 1 - 525.
After a couple of weeks I had good enough gear to tank Deathwing after reaching lvl 80. I even skipped Firelands. After beating deathwing a couple of times with my 10 man... there was really nothing much to do, exept PvP or start another alt.
So I quit. MoP came out a couple months later. I started up again and after 2 months it was same old story. Nothing to do that interested me.
Previously I had played FFXi for 5 years straight, because the game always had challenges that were just beyond my reach.
If FFXIV allowes the casual player easy access to everything, people with more time on their hands will have nothing to do after a couple of months. For a new game with limited continent, this is very bad for business.
I'd be more than happy for there to be a hardcore mode for hardcore players. Even for a casual player like me that will still be something to maybe eventually aim for. Also i wouldn't mind waiting 3-6 months for scaled down content either I'd simple like to experience it at some point.
I think a few people have hit the nail on the head there needs to be a balance you need the hardcore gamers to go out and clear challenging and rewarding content. Then a few months down the line let the casuals have a pop.
I'll happily admit I've become a bit of an MMO "noob" since i quit WOW after WOTLK I've not played end game content for maybe 5 years now
but from posts like this I'm seeing what the game does offer the casual player and i think I'll be more than happy with gearing up and challenging the 8 man content 
Housing, professions and other stuff.
The everything has to be catered to casuals is one of the main issues with gaming today. Not just only in mmos but gaming in general.
MMOs at endgame should have a strong focus on building a guild and coming together to take down epic bosses and clear challanging content. You lost both the guild feeling and the epicness when you scale down to low man. <10 people in my books.
MMOs should have content for everyone. Just as many hardcores hate the casual elements, the casuals should expect to hate some of the hardcore elements in a game. Keeping both the casuals happy and the hardcores happy will make the game over all better in the end. This cannot be achieved with the same content. Devs just have to have enough content for everyone.Gaming is no different then a sport in real life. If you are playing something casual, only for fun do not expect to be at the level of someone putting in 30-40hrs a week into it.
Having everything designed for casuals rips guilds apart because it forces you to static group more or less (which is the anti guild), and the content last a fraction of the time if you play more then 10-12hrs a week. Wow was brought up earlier and it is a great example of the issue. at any one time you only have 2 months of content... then you are forced to log off and wait. I do not know why people accept this, a mmo should be a never ending game. They should not be like offline games with DLC.
I say to the casuals who cannot join a guild (which makes no sense) or team up to do 24man (makes even less sense) or dedicate more then 50mins at a time (why are you playing a mmo)... just do not do that content it is not made for you and it should be accepted. Play the loads of other content instead and leave those who enjoy making a large guilds and allow those who enjoy large groups to be able to continue enjoying the game.
You can say that all you want however here is the problem. People like me and many of my friends have already done the large raids. At the end of the day we either raid in our 10 to 16 man group or we dont raid at all. If we dont raid at all whats the point of a subscription. You can Blame acasuals all you want for not wanting to join a large guild. Sorry I am not a number to stand in line and wait for a raid spot. Not going to ever happen the day I need to wait because the only way I can raid is join a large raiding guild is the day I am done with the game. People can say all they want about it, FACTS ARE people no longer want the large group drama that comes with 20+ man raids. You cannot tell me there is no drama in large guilds I been there for long enough I am done with them guilds. I will raid with my group of friends or not at all. I will meet new friends on the way however its not fast enough to build a raiding guild on. You guys can complain all you want about dumbing down the content because it requires fewer numbers however fact is smaller groups more people go. 760 Guilds raided content on Stormrage so far, thats more guilds that ever raided 40 or 20 or even 25 man content in WoW. More choices for people to get into their groups they want and see the content they want without the BS Drama.
I am with you on that I dont mind waiting but I do not want to be forced into a 24 man raid to see the content.
I don't know if you caught my post above Artic Moon's but I just want to point again that ALL CONTENT will be accessible to casuals.
If you do not play "hardcore" then you will not be consuming content at the rate it is released anyways, so the fact that something like Crystal Tower and Bahamut are 24 person raids shouldn't be an issue for people who can't play them. They have plenty of content to do, and once they finish that those two zones will likely be retuned, the "hardcore" will move on to new stuff, and everyone will get a chance to experience everything.
This was even the case in 1.0. The first dungeon Dzamael Darkhold (patch 1.18) was difficult when it was first released, it was "cutting edge", but by 1.20 it had been retuned so that 4-8 people could do it. It wasn't "faceroll" easy either, people still wiped but they didn't even need a full group (8 people) to do it any longer at 50. That was with the skeleton crew that was developing for 1.0 while they simultaneously built up ARR.
In ARR they are going to develop much more resources to content, keeping it fresh, and opening it up to wider groups of players. The FATE system is really perfect for this. Take primals, once primals are no longer being farmed in their instances by groups they will move them to the open world as FATE.
But this is not just a gimmick, it not only makes the content accessible but there is reason for people to still do the content. Those primals once defeated will be able to be summoned by the group to unleash a powerful attack (maybe in the PvP zones etc., so powerful it changes the weather in the zone and everyone knows what has just happened).
I think Yoshida has the right balance in mind for hardcore/casual, most MMO's today have neglected the "hardcore" to appease the casual and most MMO's in the past did the same to casuals. Here you have a developer who is trying to genuinely make everyone happy regardless of who gives him more money at the end of the day (which is why games today are going casual only, like LOTRO dropping all group content... I just never thought I'd see the day a developer would do that).
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Agreed, I think OP needs a new guild recruitment officer.
Myself I play in 2 types of guilds: either with IRL friends and their friends or with people I and other officers carefully recruits from PUGs and other people we meet during playing. And we don't really pick up the best playing people, rather nice players who are willing to learn the game together with us.
I have in fact recruited many noobs and learned them the ropes and most of them have become excellent players without becoming jerks. Don't recruit too many players too fast and try to pick people who seems nice instead of someone with cool gear. Train your noobs up and you are set for a good guild.
Bad guilds random invites people and that rarely turns out good.
Now I get the opposite effect as you. When you do 8 man content you have loads of people sitting out. Was the main issue running my guild had with XIV all the way until shutdown for ARR. You would end up having 19-21 people on at once causing 3-7 people to sit out of the group every night. Try logging in for Guild Events and be told yea filled up we will rep you in a few runs (1hr usually). Bring in alliance content and that 21 people can all just walk into it. 1 group no waiting doing things as a whole guild.
The large alliance content actually easily allow the group to participate without waiting. And there are millions of people who still want large group content, just as there is ton of people who hate WoW and tons of people who hate action combat. People like different things in a mmo. Why I stated there needs to be content for everyone. Casuals should not get everything. There is absolutly no reason to not have both low and high man content in a mmo.
No there are not Millions of players that want Large group content. LOTRO was 24 man raids could not successed with large raids cut down to 12 man raids. EQ2 Same thing from 24 down to 12. WOW the best raiding server has 2% of all raiding guilds on that server raids 25 man content. RIFT only a half a dozen raiding guilds on each server raid 20 man raids? Large raids are dead as many people that want to say otherwise there are 0 games that main focus is on large raids because they do not work. Hell Even Terra started at 20 man and had to switch to 10 man raids because no one was raiding.
Now IF FFXIV scales raids from 8 to 24 people you almost never have to worry about a bench unless you want 24 people all the time. If the content is scaled to allow 8 to 24 players smaller FCs can recruit the right people and run things their way and large hardcore FCs can do that same.
Sorry People Keep defending large raids when all the evidence is against large raids as much as people want to tout that they are THE BEST. They are not, they are a management nightmare that few players today want to deal with. I know I use to run a 40 man guild and was a raid leader, I will never do that again.
Lord of the Rings Online recently announced they were no longer supporting group content.
Not just raid content, GROUP CONTENT.
Let's not use Lord of the Rings Online as a good example of MMO design trends ever again, okay?
Unless this is the inevitable conclusion you want us to reach in FFXIV also, in which case I will flip out and call you names.
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The point is every MMO that wanted to say HEY WE HAVE LARGER RAID CONTENT as Rift, Lotro and EQ did has there cut the size of the raid groups down like LOTRO and EQ did and LOTRO cut everything group out. Or like Rift End game is 5 man instances because few players even touch the raids because there is little interest in the 10 mans because they do not drop the gear like the 20 mans do. Again I think Scaling 8 to 24 people would work well because its extremely flexible. Hell cause WoW is now doing Flex raids I have several of my friends want to go back there even though they do not want anything to do with WoW, because if they are not able to make a raid a week or 2 the raid can still function on some level. The core problem with set raid numbers is you must have a bench. It does not matter if its 8, 10, 16, 20, 24, 25, or 40 because how ever many people that are on that night you can take unless you have 25 on for a 24 max raid.
The answer is not to do away with or minimize grouping in an MMORPG.
That is a terrrrrrrible idea, and I really don't see that EVER happening in a Final Fantasy Online game. Not ever, even in thirty years. The reason Turbine is no longer developing group content is because their game sucks, no one is playing it, and they don't want to put the effort into make good content suitable for groups anymore.
THEY GAVE UP.
Just like the trends towards F2P, people make bad games and then blame players for not "wanting X" even though "X" (grouping, raiding) are staples of the MMO community and no game without them has ever replicated the success or feeling grouping brings in an ONLINE RPG game.
LOTRO and RIFT are declining in quality rapidly, that is why people no longer do group content in them. Plus they have total trash F2P communities with people who rotate MMO's every other week, so of course they aren't going to join communities to be able to do large scale group content. They aren't MMO's hardly even anymore, and the people who play them have nothign in common with the MMO communities of the golden age of MMOs. The whole scene reeks and I want FFXIV to have NOTHING to do with that crap.
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