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After SWG and Vanguard, How Do People Continue to Fall For SOE (Smedley) Hype?

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  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    It sounds more like a fight over the mechanics / content  that don't support the IP's lore.  Even still, it ultimately falls on the developer to decide if the game can be a money maker despite the limitations of the IP and that was squarely on Smedley's lap.  I am not even remotely implying that LA didn't play a part or even significant part in the fiasco, but I'm tired of the apologists acting as if SOE / Smedley had their hands tied with they ultimately have the power to not go there.  I've seen MMOs cancelled for less of a reason than fights over the IP and how it's implemented into the mechanics.

    You're not quite understanding the situation.  They made the game and the design of the game was OKed by LA's licensing people and SOE (for the first round).  When it comes to most games, say a single player game.  It's not a big deal if your license isn't revoked.  You made your product and already shipped it by that point.

    However, with an MMORPG, you have to keep renewing your license or else you can't continue to keep the game operational or add new content to it.

    This makes things much more complex and gives a licensor a lot more power than they should have.  They knew that SOE wouldn't dare back down from their demands once the game had shipped.  They would already been in too deep by that point and would do anything they could to keep the license and the game alive at that point.

     

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  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    You assume that Sony would be stupid enough to invest in and develop a game with no say so whatsoever?  You're the one sounding foolish my friend.  What company in their right mind would let the IP holder dictate the business decisions when they are only there for IP integrity and no actual financial investment or obligation other than to get their royalties?  SOE would have gone out of business a long time ago if they actually did things the way you paint them.

    SOE has some say depending on how the negotiations ended up and how the legal documents are written.  The thing is that the Star Wars IP is an extremely hard IP to deal with, and the license needs to be renewed.  Upsetting or refusing to compromise (or even completely bend to) a licensor would be a disaster.)

    SOE had an extremely small amount of input when it came to NGE.

    What company would let a licensor do this?  A company that made a game completely based on that specific IP.  If the NFL told EA's Madden team that they wanted something, EA would jump through hoops to appease them and do as they wish, because a football game without the NFL license would be trash and wouldn't sell.

    In SOE SWG case, LA got what LA wanted.  If they had denied LA their demands, LA would have not renewed the license and then the entire game would have had to be recreated from the ground up to not use any Star Wars IP, or shut it down when the license expired.

    When it comes to some games, licenses may not be a big deal.  For example, not getting licensed to use real world gun models in your game (M4, M16, M240b) isn't a huge deal because you can just change the name and tweak the looks a tiny bit (as many games often do).  However, when you game is completely based on an IP, the licensor owns you.  That's why so many companies try to create original IPs and stick to stuff they own or create.

    Take some classes on game design.  They cover all this in the freshmen year.

    Stop equating your crystal ball as truth and I might take your arguments more seriously.  There has been plenty of evidence that SOE had more than a little input on NGE.  In fact, there is evidence showing that they are the sole architect of the NGE.  LA's role was to push SOE to make some kind of change and that is what SOE came up with.

    Really?  Everything people have posted so far says otherwise.  What evidence do you speak of?

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  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,940Member Uncommon
    As far as Smed goes... a Smed does not change his spots. He has lied/mislead/mis-stated to customers so many times, there is no way you can believe anything he says. As to the whole SWG situation, for whatever LA did (or didn't do) they never, ever wrote even a single line of code for SWG. One of SWG's biggest problems from the beginning and 10X worse after the NGE was that it was a buggy mess. And all of that is wholly on SOE. (For the record, LA and SOE were co-publishers of SWG, so for every decision that was made, good or bad, both deserve equal blame, and an extra share for SOE for the crappy coding and bad game management.)
  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by Redemp
    Originally posted by Murugan

     

    I honestly can't think of anything more important to someone who actually plans to play an MMO long term than how the company behind it supports their games.  Certainly it is more important to me than some "features" vaguely hinted at by a two faced money grubber like Smedley.

    Which is why I look at the Everquest Franchise's history. What better way to gauge SoE's commitment to Everquest Next?

    If you like the way they handled those games then sure.  But if you simply liked Everquest and EQ2 up until a point, then this is still the same company that drastically changed those games.  Whereas much of the original creative force behind them and development teams have long since departed.  Smedley is still here, Brad is gone as are many others.

     

    Personally everyone I know who played Everquest quit because of SOE's mishandling of the game, and the same goes for EQ2 and Vanguard (which imo is related to the franchise given it was created by the series creator).  We are all nostalgic for them, but not for SOE as a company.  Which is still run by the same people.  Why should anyone believe things will change there?

     

    I don't care if people want to get hyped about this game for whatever reason because they just love anything that says sandbox, because they are convinced it will have X feature they've dreamed up.  But as long as everything about this game relies on trusting the word of John Smedley then it is certainly relevant for people who do not like the man or his business practices.

     

    I hope it is a good game, however it turns out, and that fans of it get a good experience and aren't treated the way myself and many others feel we were mistreated by the company.  SOE defenders can call us all sorts of names, say we are jaded etc, but we supported SOE MMORPG's and in return we got burned.  There is no way around that (speaking of SWG, Matrix Online, and Vanguard two of which were shut down a cardinal sin imo for an MMO studio that didn't also close its doors on the same day).  People subscribe to MMORPG's, and invest in their character they do have a right to feel owed something in return. 

     

    Obviously I can't get my money back for Vangaurd, I was happy to give it when it was going to the development/developers of the game.  But SOE kept taking my money long after they dropped support for the game, all the while misleading us about future plans and I can't forgive that.

    I've played too many MMORPGs in my lifetime.  Often right at day 1 launch, or before that.  Including titles such as EQ, SWG, Shadowbane, AO, DAoC, GW, EQ2, SWTOR, Aion, Planetside, Planetside 2, Warhammer, Mortal Online, Eve, Darkfall, Vanguard, just to name a small few of the many MMORPGs I have played over all these years.

    I just want to say I disagree with how you feel about SOE.  Vanguard was doomed before SOE even touched it.  The fact that they even kept the game on life support should be good thing, not a negative thing, especially since they had a huge mess on their hands to start with through no fault of their own, and could have easily pulled the plug to cut losses.  You complain that they gutted the dev team, but by a few months in, server pop during prime time was down to the hundreds.  You can't commit a massive dev team to something with such poor income/fanbase.  It would be a terrible business decision!

     SWG's downfall was apparent from the first month.  I personally loved the game, but it was bleeding subs.  Hard.  No denying that, it's simply a fact.  Plus the licensor (LA) was forcing their hand.  The end result was NGE and no one was happy about it.  Not even the devs or Smedley.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that I think your hate for SOE is extremely misguided.  They are by no means perfect, but no game company is.  Not a single one.  And in comparison to a lot of companies, SOE is a shining beacon of hope lol.

    Everyone has had high hopes for many MMORPGs.  Most recently, ESO was supposed to be great.  Heck, as an ES fan myself, how could I not get excited to take my elder scrolls experience online.  But then when people got their hands on it, it was overwhelmingly mediocre.  The reactions of most people who saw it or played it was "Meh, it's ok".

    EQN might turn out to just be "ok" or maybe even bad.  But so far, everyone that's seen it and everyone who's working on it is talking about it like it's the next big thing.

    All I can say is.

    August 2nd can't get here fast enough.

    And EQN, best in show. FTW.

    According to Bill Murphy.

     

    ESO won best in show from IGN.

     

    FFXIV won best in show from Destructoid.

     

    Only one of these games is available for widespread public testing without an NDA, but if you really trust the word of Bill Murphy... (then again you are trusting the word of John Smedley so I guess that's a given).

     

    If I hadn't experienced the miracle of support given by Square Enix after FFXIV's failed launch maybe I would see SOE as a "beacon of light" too, because yes there are a ton of crappy gaming companies.  PWI, Cryptic, Funcom yeah I agree with you these are worse.  But for a long time it was SOE for me, and now I just have higher standards for the companies I choose to "believe" when they talk about the future of their games.

     

    I DON'T trust ANYONE!  I will let the end result speak for itself.   Just because we are speculating/hoping/wishing for something doesn't make us blind dupes or drones that believe everything and buy everything that is being told to us.

     

    Hell, none of us know what the game will be, but the forums popped up, and I imagine a lot of us are not playing a mmo right now, we are playing single player or lobby games, but not a mmo.  So I am hopeful this will be the next mmo I play, but I fully tell myself I could either love it or I could hate what they bring out, I don't know.

     

    Hope /= Blind Faith

     

    All I know is I cannot stand the over instanced, too quick to level, daily list driven mmos that are out now for the most part.  If EQN sucks, then I will give ArcheAge a look (even though I do not like all of its aspects)...If it doesn't work out, I may be done with mmos, and I will probably stick to other games.  Not these watered down mmos though.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Murugan

    According to Bill Murphy.

     

    ESO won best in show from IGN.

     

    FFXIV won best in show from Destructoid.

     

    Only one of these games is available for widespread public testing without an NDA, but if you really trust the word of Bill Murphy... (then again you are trusting the word of John Smedley so I guess that's a given).

     

    If I hadn't experienced the miracle of support given by Square Enix after FFXIV's failed launch maybe I would see SOE as a "beacon of light" too, because yes there are a ton of crappy gaming companies.  PWI, Cryptic, Funcom yeah I agree with you these are worse.  But for a long time it was SOE for me, and now I just have higher standards for the companies I choose to "believe" when they talk about the future of their games.

    Ten Ton Hammer agrees as well.  Everyone that sees EQN, say it exceeded their already high expectations.  Also, why exactly was SOE your previous "Bad guy company"?  I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning.

    Who cares about Ten Ton Hammer?  Do you?  Do you think they are some kind of righteous authority on what you enjoy?  I don't, I don't trust Destructoid's "Best of" article writer either, or IGN's.  It means nothing, but doubly so because the two people who proclaimed EQ Next "Best of Show" have nothing to show for it, and their audience has nothing to base a belief in their review on.  Because they know nothing about the game other than what John Smedley tells them.

     

    SOE wasnt' my previous "Bad guy company" it was my previous go-to MMO company.  I played EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, SWG, Planetside, Matrix Online, I pre-ordered and beta'd most of these games.  They trashed all of these games (my opinion), and they have put out crap since.  Not only that but I grew tired of their constant lying and misleading of people, their bait and switch business practices, constant shuffling of development teams, and apparent general lack of appreciation for people who paid a subscription to them every single month.

     

    Now yes, they are my "bad guy company" based on my extensive experiences as a subscriber to many of their MMO's and "station pass" holder for many years, and that bad guy specifically?  John Smedley.  Maybe if they hang him from the tree outside SOE headquarters (not literally, I don't condone murder) I will stop being weary of everything they do.

     

    Anyways I'm not here to bash EQ Next, I hope it is good for you I don't like to troll what other people enjoy (although to be fair none of you enjoy EQ Next you don't even know what kind of game it will be, I bet many of you will hate it come August 2 when/if you get real information). 

     

    This is my opinion of the company, it isn't based on forums or being "jaded" (jaded means someone who grows tired and impatient with something they previously enjoyed, I still enjoy MMORPG's I just dislike how SOE handles them), but on my experiences as an SOE customer.  I'm entitled to my opinion, it is far from frivolous and I retain an open mind if more information about an SOE game surfaces not from the mouth of the serpent.  Still "faith" in developers is important to me as a non-game hopping long term MMORPG player, and they have done everything they could to piss away my faith countless times in every SOE title I have played.

  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Las Cruces, NMPosts: 354Member Uncommon

    One cannot deny that the FTP model in Eq2 is one of the worst FTP models ever invented in the history of the genre. The only game who's FTP model comes close to the wretchedness(new word) of Eq2 is SWTOR.

    For this reason alone, I will hold no excitement for EQN until I get ALL the details, including the payment model/structure.

    Thanks for reading. :D

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    They did the firt EQ right, so maybe they get it right again...

    I am frankly far from certain of anything about this game but it do sounds interesting at least.. The hype seems to be a bit premature though, we might get an more accurate picture ofter the SOE fan faire. If I like what I see there I might get hyped as well.

    SOE never did repeat the success of their first game even though EQ2 and SWG (pre-cu) did have their moments but writing off anything they make unseen is as silly as loving anything they make unseen.

    Let's just wait and see. :)

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,940Member Uncommon
    As an additional note, I suggest that people that say SOE had nothing to do with and are not responsible for the NGE go read the Freeman and the unedited version of the infamous Rubenfeld "om-nom-nom" blogs on the subject. From that it is clear that even if LA at some point told SOE to "do something" to increase the numbers for SWG (which was never mentioned), SOE were the ones that conceived of, designed, and implemented the changes that were made. It is all there in the blogs/interviews.
  • IadienIadien Charleston, WVPosts: 638Member
    Originally posted by Maelzrael

    One cannot deny that the FTP model in Eq2 is one of the worst FTP models ever invented in the history of the genre. The only game who's FTP model comes close to the wretchedness(new word) of Eq2 is SWTOR.

    For this reason alone, I will hold no excitement for EQN until I get ALL the details, including the payment model/structure.

    Thanks for reading. :D

    EQ2's F2P model was terrible, they have since revised it and it is much better. Also, don't expect the same F2P model in EQN, SoE doesn't have the same matrix for each game.

  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Las Cruces, NMPosts: 354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iadien
    Originally posted by Maelzrael

    One cannot deny that the FTP model in Eq2 is one of the worst FTP models ever invented in the history of the genre. The only game who's FTP model comes close to the wretchedness(new word) of Eq2 is SWTOR.

    For this reason alone, I will hold no excitement for EQN until I get ALL the details, including the payment model/structure.

    Thanks for reading. :D

    EQ2's F2P model was terrible, they have since revised it and it is much better. Also, don't expect the same F2P model in EQN, SoE doesn't have the same matrix for each game.

    Is the purple gear and endgame content still restricted by a pay wall?

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maelzrael

    One cannot deny that the FTP model in Eq2 is one of the worst FTP models ever invented in the history of the genre. The only game who's FTP model comes close to the wretchedness(new word) of Eq2 is SWTOR.

    For this reason alone, I will hold no excitement for EQN until I get ALL the details, including the payment model/structure.

    Thanks for reading. :D

    I can't object to that (said the same thing when EQ2 went F2P) but hopefully have they learned from their mistakes (if they haven't the game will probably suck anyways). Being too greedy isnt smart since it actually cost you many players, I quit EQ2 in disgust when I saw the new model myself and I forked up my $15 bucks with little complain for 5 years before that.

    But yes, let's wait with the hype until we get more info, it would be nice if it was a nice game with a good payment model though, it would be nice to return to Norrath. :)

  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,174Member Uncommon

    I'm actually with the OP on this one - although not for the same reasons.

    As a long time EQ player, I fondly remember a lot about Smedley, and the more I see coming about EQN, and especially the more Smedley himself says about it - the more I think "wait and see".

    I'm ... cautiously optimistic.

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Murugan

    Who cares about Ten Ton Hammer?  Do you?  Do you think they are some kind of righteous authority on what you enjoy?  I don't, I don't trust Destructoid's "Best of" article writer either, or IGN's.  It means nothing, but doubly so because the two people who proclaimed EQ Next "Best of Show" have nothing to show for it, and their audience has nothing to base a belief in their review on.  Because they know nothing about the game other than what John Smedley tells them.

     Well I wouldn't say I will take their word for it and preorder the game right now, but my point was that it bodes well for the game and it's most likely more than just "hype".  

    SOE wasnt' my previous "Bad guy company" it was my previous go-to MMO company.  I played EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, SWG, Planetside, Matrix Online, I pre-ordered and beta'd most of these games.  They trashed all of these games (my opinion), and they have put out crap since.  Not only that but I grew tired of their constant lying and misleading of people, their bait and switch business practices, constant shuffling of development teams, and apparent general lack of appreciation for people who paid a subscription to them every single month.

     That's an interesting opinion.  I played all those games as well (except MxO) and I found them all to be pretty solid titles, espeically EQ and Planetside.  I've also recently reinstalled EQ, EQ2 and Vaguard, just to check in and see what the games are like now, and they seem way better.  Vanguard is a lot more polished, with more active players than when I left.  EQ has an insane amount of content compared to when I played it.  Same with EQ2.  In my eyes, SOE saved Vanguard from destruction and has continued to support their games faithfully.

    Now yes, they are my "bad guy company" based on my extensive experiences as a subscriber to many of their MMO's and "station pass" holder for many years, and that bad guy specifically?  John Smedley.  Maybe if they hang him from the tree outside SOE headquarters (not literally, I don't condone murder) I will stop being weary of everything they do.

     Your comments are very general.  You say things like "Business practices" and "Shuffling of development teams" but don't really state anything they did wrong.

    Anyways I'm not here to bash EQ Next, I hope it is good for you I don't like to troll what other people enjoy (although to be fair none of you enjoy EQ Next you don't even know what kind of game it will be, I bet many of you will hate it come August 2 when/if you get real information). 

     That could be very true. EQN might not be the game for me.  However, they said sandbox, and EQ was one of my all time favorite MMORPGs that I played from day 1 launch and for years after it.  That's enough to be "excited" for EQN.  But yes, we won't know for sure until August 2.

    This is my opinion of the company, it isn't based on forums or being "jaded" (jaded means someone who grows tired and impatient with something they previously enjoyed, I still enjoy MMORPG's I just dislike how SOE handles them), but on my experiences as an SOE customer.  I'm entitled to my opinion, it is far from frivolous and I retain an open mind if more information about an SOE game surfaces not from the mouth of the serpent.  Still "faith" in developers is important to me as a non-game hopping long term MMORPG player, and they have done everything they could to piss away my faith countless times in every SOE title I have played.

    More general statements.  You still haven't stated exactly what Smedley did to upset you.  Or even SOE for that matter.

     

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    You assume that Sony would be stupid enough to invest in and develop a game with no say so whatsoever?  You're the one sounding foolish my friend.  What company in their right mind would let the IP holder dictate the business decisions when they are only there for IP integrity and no actual financial investment or obligation other than to get their royalties?  SOE would have gone out of business a long time ago if they actually did things the way you paint them.

    SOE has some say depending on how the negotiations ended up and how the legal documents are written.  The thing is that the Star Wars IP is an extremely hard IP to deal with, and the license needs to be renewed.  Upsetting or refusing to compromise (or even completely bend to) a licensor would be a disaster.)

    SOE had an extremely small amount of input when it came to NGE.

    What company would let a licensor do this?  A company that made a game completely based on that specific IP.  If the NFL told EA's Madden team that they wanted something, EA would jump through hoops to appease them and do as they wish, because a football game without the NFL license would be trash and wouldn't sell.

    In SOE SWG case, LA got what LA wanted.  If they had denied LA their demands, LA would have not renewed the license and then the entire game would have had to be recreated from the ground up to not use any Star Wars IP, or shut it down when the license expired.

    When it comes to some games, licenses may not be a big deal.  For example, not getting licensed to use real world gun models in your game (M4, M16, M240b) isn't a huge deal because you can just change the name and tweak the looks a tiny bit (as many games often do).  However, when you game is completely based on an IP, the licensor owns you.  That's why so many companies try to create original IPs and stick to stuff they own or create.

    Take some classes on game design.  They cover all this in the freshmen year.

    Stop equating your crystal ball as truth and I might take your arguments more seriously.  There has been plenty of evidence that SOE had more than a little input on NGE.  In fact, there is evidence showing that they are the sole architect of the NGE.  LA's role was to push SOE to make some kind of change and that is what SOE came up with.

    Really?  Everything people have posted so far says otherwise.  What evidence do you speak of?

    There have been at least a couple of posts with links on this very topic that point to the exact thing I'm talking about.  On top of that, I was not only around when this stuff was happening, but I even tried SWG both before and after the NGE.  I remember distinctly that both companies were responsible for the fiasco.  LA for pushing for change and SOE for being the architect of CU and NGE.  Personally, I liked the game better after NGE.  I played it a lot longer than the few days with pre-NGE.

    image
  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Loke666

    They did the firt EQ right, so maybe they get it right again...

    I am frankly far from certain of anything about this game but it do sounds interesting at least.. The hype seems to be a bit premature though, we might get an more accurate picture ofter the SOE fan faire. If I like what I see there I might get hyped as well.

    SOE never did repeat the success of their first game even though EQ2 and SWG (pre-cu) did have their moments but writing off anything they make unseen is as silly as loving anything they make unseen.

    Let's just wait and see. :)

    I agree Loke.  When it comes to EQN I label myself as "Hopeful".  I'm not hyped for it yet.  It's been difficult mustering hype for any MMORPG over the past few years.  GW2 did a little bit to easy my anxiety about the future, but most other game's I tried out have been lackluster at best.

    I think everyone should be waiting for August 2nd before they make any real judgement call.  At this point all anyone can do is hope lol.

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  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    As an additional note, I suggest that people that say SOE had nothing to do with and are not responsible for the NGE go read the Freeman and the unedited version of the infamous Rubenfeld "om-nom-nom" blogs on the subject. From that it is clear that even if LA at some point told SOE to "do something" to increase the numbers for SWG (which was never mentioned), SOE were the ones that conceived of, designed, and implemented the changes that were made. It is all there in the blogs/interviews.

     

    I do not think anyone is saying SoE had nothing to do with it, they of course had to make what LA wanted happen, but what LA wanted to happen is change a game into something that it wasn't.  It is not like changing a game in development, SWG was out already, and they wanted the game redone, but to remain out.  I cannot think of anyone that has done this recreation all at once, to the extreme they did it, and it worked out.

     

    Sure SoE had to write the code, but without LA meddling, it would of been a lot easier to make some more content in the style SWG was in already and do some fixes, it would of took a lot less.  If they would of spent the time/money on fixing SWG, the way it was that they did the CU/NGE, things may or may not of been different.

     

    People just like to blame SoE 100% and act as if LA was a innocent bystander a lot of the time.  LA negotiated to where they had final say (Which I think should never happen, and is a reason to be shy about taking on a IP, if final say is not the developers).  Smedley went out of his way to not blame LA, so people also take that as proof, but they also fail to realize that SWG wasn't the only SoE Star Wars product, you cannot piss off LA, and then later ask to make the other games using their IP, without thinking you will get screwed or denied.

     

    So sure both had a hand in it, but without LA, the change would of never happened or been mishandled etc....  I believe that, no one changes a game to that extreme that is already out.  If anything, LA screwed SoE, they should of realized it was not going to have the feel they wanted and made SoE change the game PRIOR to release, they set them up for failure by doing it afterwards.

  • IadienIadien Charleston, WVPosts: 638Member
    Originally posted by Maelzrael
    Originally posted by Iadien
    Originally posted by Maelzrael

    One cannot deny that the FTP model in Eq2 is one of the worst FTP models ever invented in the history of the genre. The only game who's FTP model comes close to the wretchedness(new word) of Eq2 is SWTOR.

    For this reason alone, I will hold no excitement for EQN until I get ALL the details, including the payment model/structure.

    Thanks for reading. :D

    EQ2's F2P model was terrible, they have since revised it and it is much better. Also, don't expect the same F2P model in EQN, SoE doesn't have the same matrix for each game.

    Is the purple gear and endgame content still restricted by a pay wall?

    Gear, yes... it is less SC now (I believe) there's also a unlock all gear option now, which costs less. As far as end game content, if you mean expansions, then yes, of course you need to purchase them. You need to wait and see what kind of matrix SoE has for EQN before deciding that you hate it, because SoE's games have all kinds of different things they charge for.

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    There have been at least a couple of posts with links on this very topic that point to the exact thing I'm talking about.  On top of that, I was not only around when this stuff was happening, but I even tried SWG both before and after the NGE.  I remember distinctly that both companies were responsible for the fiasco.  LA for pushing for change and SOE for being the architect of CU and NGE.  Personally, I liked the game better after NGE.  I played it a lot longer than the few days with pre-NGE.

    Really?  Because I've read all the links and all I have seen is links confirming what I've been saying, or being vague/supporting what I've said.

    The problem is that you distinctly remember wrong.  SOE was blamed because they were guilty by association.  Yes they crafted the code and implemented it, but it was practically at gunpoint by LA.  The "design" of NGE came almost entirely from LA.

    I personally liked the game before NGE, and I think some people are right to have disliked the game after NGE too.  The point is that generally, most of the people who hate on SOE tend to be fans of other franchises who have never even played an SOE game, or someone who was upset with NGE.

    Since NGE was almost entirely LA's fault, not SOE, I think it's irrational to give the company as much flack as some people do.

    Another poster mentioned something about the F2P model of EQ2 being why they dislike SOE.  But I feel this is just an example of someone who doesn't understand that F2P is not supposed to be 100% free.  If you like a game enough to get to end game and raid, you should be willing to pony over a few bucks every month to support the dev team that made the game.

    Making video games is not a charity.  The F2P model at least lets you try games for free without any fear of buying a bad game.  But people need to understand that forking over $15 or $20 on cash shop items or a subscription for a F2P game is not "bad business practices".

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • IridescentOrkIridescentOrk Ellicott City, MDPosts: 157Member
    no game play vids or demo to say the game is good, but it's fine, there will be popcorn to enjoy the aftermath

    gameplay > graphics

  • IadienIadien Charleston, WVPosts: 638Member
    Originally posted by IridescentOrk
    no game play vids or demo to say the game is good, but it's fine, there will be popcorn to enjoy the aftermath

    So, based on no vids, you're expecting it to be terrible? How is that any different than people hoping it's good? lol

  • DaranarDaranar Walkersville, MDPosts: 177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iadien
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Not so many years ago SOE, at John Smedley's direction, gutted and ruined SWG, basically causing a legendary mass exodus from the game.  

    A few years later, SOE aquires Sigil games and forces the premature release of Vanguard, which was regarded by many to be one of the worst launches of any major MMO. 

    At the time of Vanguard's release (arguably the first iteration of EQN), Smedley promised long term support and upcoming expansion packs.  We all know how that went.

     

    So how is it that everyone is suddenly so confident that EQN will be such a great game?   Do the words "Everquest" and "sandbox" mentioned in the same sentence suddenly activate a chemical in the brain that causes selective amnesia?

    So, your post is entirely inaccurate.

    First, Lucas was calling the shots on the change with SWG, of course Smed took the fall, he eludes to this in old ass interviews.

    Second, SoE did not purchase assets of Sigil until months AFTER Vanguard had already launched. The only reason Vanguard is still around is because of SoE.

    ^^This exactly.  OP, do your homework.  SOE was not apart of those flops.  What SOE did do is EQ, EQ2, PS, PS2.   All incredibly successful games in their own right, and games still going on to this day.  Find me an MMO studio that has such successes as SOE's.   Most studios have one, maybe two hits and just as many flops as SOE.   Just remember, people don't hate on crap, they hate on the best.   No one hates the bench warmers for Washington Wizards, but plenty hate Lebron and Kobe.   

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member
    Originally posted by Daranar
    Originally posted by Iadien
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Not so many years ago SOE, at John Smedley's direction, gutted and ruined SWG, basically causing a legendary mass exodus from the game.  

    A few years later, SOE aquires Sigil games and forces the premature release of Vanguard, which was regarded by many to be one of the worst launches of any major MMO. 

    At the time of Vanguard's release (arguably the first iteration of EQN), Smedley promised long term support and upcoming expansion packs.  We all know how that went.

     

    So how is it that everyone is suddenly so confident that EQN will be such a great game?   Do the words "Everquest" and "sandbox" mentioned in the same sentence suddenly activate a chemical in the brain that causes selective amnesia?

    So, your post is entirely inaccurate.

    First, Lucas was calling the shots on the change with SWG, of course Smed took the fall, he eludes to this in old ass interviews.

    Second, SoE did not purchase assets of Sigil until months AFTER Vanguard had already launched. The only reason Vanguard is still around is because of SoE.

    ^^This exactly.  OP, do your homework.  SOE was not apart of those flops.  What SOE did do is EQ, EQ2, PS, PS2.   All incredibly successful games in their own right, and games still going on to this day.  Find me an MMO studio that has such successes as SOE's.   Most studios have one, maybe two hits and just as many flops as SOE.   Just remember, people don't hate on crap, they hate on the best.   No one hates the bench warmers for Washington Wizards, but plenty hate Lebron and Kobe.   

    I did do my homework and posted several links to substantiate my argument, the only counter has been one article from Nancy McIntyre which never mentions anything about LA pushing NGE on SOE.

    I on the other hand have referenced wikipedia, an SOE dev blog and an interview with Smedley where he accepts full responsibility for the CU and NGE without any mention of LA.     I was also playing SWG from launch through the NGE and played Vanguard at launch.  Even at launch, I had to use my SOE Station account to log into Vanguard yet many continue to say that SOE was not involved in any way. 

    Somehow none of my evidence counts but some random poster stating that  "Lucas was calling the shots" with zero proof  is what most people are choosing to believe.   Not much I can do about that but please don't tell me to do my homework. 

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    As i've always said, the whole smed/soe hate is mostly unfounded bandwagoning blind hate because its popular to do so.

    The reality is, only at most about 350 thousand people have any justifiable RIGHT to be pissed at SOE.  These are the people who were directly affected by the NGE.  Even that being said, it was later identified that Lucasarts was the force (tee hee) behind the NGE and that anybody who is of sound rational mind would subsequently take this new information and be pissed at lucasarts rather than SOE.

    The rest of the hate you see is people bandwagoning onto the NGE thing because they think it will give them more MMO street cred or something.  Either way its become a complete and utter joke of absurdity.

    If you take WOW out of the mix, SOE has far and away the best corral and most successful mmo's out there.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    As i've always said, the whole smed/soe hate is mostly unfounded bandwagoning blind hate because its popular to do so.

    The reality is, only at most about 350 thousand people have any justifiable RIGHT to be pissed at SOE.  These are the people who were directly affected by the NGE.  Even that being said, it was later identified that Lucasarts was the force (tee hee) behind the NGE and that anybody who is of sound rational mind would subsequently take this new information and be pissed at lucasarts rather than SOE.

    The rest of the hate you see is people bandwagoning onto the NGE thing because they think it will give them more MMO street cred or something.  Either way its become a complete and utter joke of absurdity.

    If you take WOW out of the mix, SOE has far and away the best corral and most successful mmo's out there.

    Considering that this thread is 20+ pages and not one person has been able to produce any evidence of LA forcing the NGE onto SOE, I think people need to stop citing this as fact.

     

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    As i've always said, the whole smed/soe hate is mostly unfounded bandwagoning blind hate because its popular to do so.

    The reality is, only at most about 350 thousand people have any justifiable RIGHT to be pissed at SOE.  These are the people who were directly affected by the NGE.  Even that being said, it was later identified that Lucasarts was the force (tee hee) behind the NGE and that anybody who is of sound rational mind would subsequently take this new information and be pissed at lucasarts rather than SOE.

    The rest of the hate you see is people bandwagoning onto the NGE thing because they think it will give them more MMO street cred or something.  Either way its become a complete and utter joke of absurdity.

    If you take WOW out of the mix, SOE has far and away the best corral and most successful mmo's out there.

    Considering that this thread is 20+ pages and not one person has been able to produce any evidence of LA forcing the NGE onto SOE, I think people need to stop citing this as fact.

     

    You are amazingly stubborn. So that article where Nancy openly admits the reason why NGE was released means nothing? even though she uses the word 'we' repeatedly?

    And how many times people have to explain to you that ofcourse Smedly will take the responsibility not LA? Smedly is face of SOE and he was always going to take the fall for it. You were also told many many times over 20 pages that SOE can not take decisions on its own. It is LA who takes decisions  and SOE follows.

    It is amazing how stubborn you are...online ego is a big deal i guess. When she says 'we' over and over again obviously she is talking about LA since they are the decision makers not SOE.

    Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts, responded to the changes in the game and the angry objections by disgruntled players. I quote her remarks from the article at length, since, um, you have to see them to believe them.

    Ms. MacIntyre: "We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base ... There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an option to be part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

    I don't know much more crystal clear it can get? but oh no she has to say 'We forced NGE on SOE' otherwise it was all SOE's decision. Do you know how liscensing works? i will give you an example of Game Workshop. Nothing in Warhammer MMO happened without their agreement.They have full control over Warhammer and no company can add an inch without consulting them.

    What makes you think a company as huge as LA would just let SOE do whatever they desire?

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

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