Originally posted by Rydeson I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..
Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.
In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.
Again, thank you for your OPINION.. lol As for max level being balanced? I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you? I have YET to seen any game balance anything.. BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you? lmao
Well, your OPINION is as much welcomed, as you thank for mine.
That works out great ... since i know likely that when i get to top tier, my DPS will not be gimped. The difference between toons at same tier at max level is much smaller than at different levels.
Originally posted by Rydeson I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..
Here is something I worked on for fun for character progression. I won't get into the exact formula and numbers and will simplify it with the following example:
Every level 1 toon starts off with 10,000 health. There are minor racial bonuses.. For each level gained, the character will receive 100 pts of health, so over the course of their life (50 levels), they will max out at 15,000 health.. The intent here is that a max'd level character gets an advantage over lower level characters in PvP, and mobs in PvE.. but they are not God's, and can be easily defeated if ganged up on.. Sure there would be additional bonuses to take the player character over 15,000 health, such as gear and buffs, maybe allowing a total health around 20,000.. There were also other stats that came into play that determined your offensive and defensive capabilities, but in summary I had designed it so that it would take 4 beginners (newbies) a 50/50 chance at defeating a level 50 character or mob...... Exception to those mobs that are elite in nature..
I did add in one thing I have not seen by any game yet.. I added in 10 limited levels of progression.. This came from my military background in the USAF.. Not everyone can be a General.. Right? So what I did was have a cut off at 40th level.. This was the true ceiling everyone could achieve, but the only way to advance beyond 40th was to earn more points then others.. Once you reach 40th level, you will gain a new exp bar that resets every 2nd month.. The reason I did was many as I will try to explain.. he he he.. Lets assume over the months of playing, the player base matures to a healthy 2,000 level 40 characters.. We have all seen this in any game we've played.. So what I did was make it so only 1 character can be lvl 50.. This character would be the top of the pyramid , while everyone else fills out below.. Every 2 months when the new (xp) bar resets you could be promoted or demoted depending on your gameplay.. So if you are the level 50 player enjoying your title and go on a 2 month vacation, when you come back you'll be just another lvl 40 character until you earn the most xp once again for the new 2 month period..
I did this for 2 reasons.. 1) just something new to add in for fun.. give max level a twist.. 2) it encourages you to be an active player to keep your advance bonus levels..
I agree with you. Reducing the power gap would solve a lot of problems, and you could avoid gated content and linearity to some extent. That alone will not work. The world have to build up accordingly. And by the way, in old UO it was rather similar to this. Newby startet at 33 HP at maximum was 100 HP. With overall points to spent of 200 in 3 stats(Str(=HP), int(=Mana), dex).
And about the colored text. This was the old PvP rank system in World of Warcraft. But in WoW the problem was that pvp gear was available through the rank system.. and the last rank only even possible if you played for weeks/month more or less 24/7. After a few month the pve raider with there epic gear came into the pvp battlegrounds and rocked everything with almost no pvper having the complete pvp epic gear, which by comparsion even sucked against the pve epic gear.
Originally posted by Rydeson I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..
Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.
In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.
Again, thank you for your OPINION.. lol As for max level being balanced? I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you? I have YET to seen any game balance anything.. BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you? lmao
Well, your OPINION is as much welcomed, as you thank for mine.
That works out great ... since i know likely that when i get to top tier, my DPS will not be gimped. The difference between toons at same tier at max level is much smaller than at different levels.
Isn't that what "more balance" mean?
like I said.. you must not play much.. When is the last time in WoW you grouped up your lvl 70 with a newbie and enjoyed a good fun hour of thrills and excitement.. WoW is one of the prime examples of WORST leveling progression ever created.. When today's maxed out characters can SOLO a raid dungeons from a previous expansion that is ALL the proof needed.. Open world PvP became a joke because a maxed level character could go around ONE SHOTTING anyone more then 20 levels below them..
However, since it didn't contain the phrases "EQNext" "WoW Sucks" "GW2 Sucks" "Rift Sucks" "F2P Sucks" "P2P Sucks" "MMOs Suck" it didn't stir much discussion.
The important thing is for you to learn from your mistakes.
Originally posted by Rydeson I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..
Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.
In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.
Again, thank you for your OPINION.. lol As for max level being balanced? I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you? I have YET to seen any game balance anything.. BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you? lmao
I prefer slow character progression to keep playerbase relatively balanced rather than easy cap and aiming for as much balance as possible. RPGs are not Counter Strike. They are not about 100% balance and competitive PvP. They are much more about character progression.
Games which let you reach cap quickly and then play endgame without any progression are not really RPGs. They are RPGs only for the short while until you reach the max level and get capped. Then they become counter strike...play PvP maps, play PVE maps. Usually you just wait in the lobby (town) and queue for one of these. That is definitely not what I, personally, want from MMORPG,
Agreed.. I've always said that today's games are more Esport then RPG.. I don't know if we'll ever get back our RPG worlds.. Everything seems live in an instance.. (Sad)
like I said.. you must not play much.. When is the last time in WoW you grouped up your lvl 70 with a newbie and enjoyed a good fun hour of thrills and excitement.. WoW is one of the prime examples of WORST leveling progression ever created.. When today's maxed out characters can SOLO a raid dungeons from a previous expansion that is ALL the proof needed.. Open world PvP became a joke because a maxed level character could go around ONE SHOTTING anyone more then 20 levels below them..
And who don't have a max level toon in WOW? Most players i know (before i quit) have multiple max level toons. The true newbie is few and far .. and so what if i don't group with them?
And what does open pvp has to do with it? There is none in WOW. Open world pvp is just not that popular in MMOs.
Agreed.. I've always said that today's games are more Esport then RPG.. I don't know if we'll ever get back our RPG worlds.. Everything seems live in an instance.. (Sad)
Thank you for your OPINION.
yes, because e-sport is popular. In fact, the innovation is to take the e-sport out and make a game on its own (like LoL, WoT ...) Those games are a lot more popular than any "true" MMOs.
Whether it is sad or not depends on your preference. If you are on the wrong side of the market, what can i say?
Games which let you reach cap quickly and then play endgame without any progression are not really RPGs. They are RPGs only for the short while until you reach the max level and get capped. Then they become counter strike...play PvP maps, play PVE maps. Usually you just wait in the lobby (town) and queue for one of these. That is definitely not what I, personally, want from MMORPG,
According to you?
And if not, just relabel them something else. Problem solved.
And what *you* want from MMORPG .. is not necessarily what other wants. Personally, i am more than happy to wait in the lobby for the next dungeon, providing that the combat & dungeon design is fun.
I just love the concept of levels in an mmo, it lets me see if i'm good enough to kill mobs x lvl's above me. In most games that's about 3-5 although i've had some where i could get up to 7 lvls. It allows you to test your skills. And I'm sorry but games without lvls are just boring IMO. If you say that lvls distract you from the story you're dead wrong, in any decent MMO's the progression in lvls just makes the story better.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
there were a few games i enjoyed that when you reach cap you have the option of being reborn with basic accumulative stat increases ie being reborn, you get +1 to all stats or an ability from another race/class, which you could do over and over, but each rebirth also meant ya needed more exp to lvl (first rebirth 1.1x exp second 1.3x exp third 1.5x exp ect ect) which made them more replayable and more fun to me, id like to see this more in newer games
Levels will always be one of the simplest and most elegant designs for indicating player progression, so clearly they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Levels will always be one of the simplest and most elegant designs for indicating player progression, so clearly they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Agreed. And levels exist in almost all MMORPG systems, whether overt or not. SWG and UO were skill-based but those are like levels, in a sense.
Because it has always been therefore it always will be is a bad line of reasoning.
Things improve and change all the time. Video games are no exception. I fully expect there to be plenty of games in the future that get rid of leveling. In most MMOs right now levels are fairly pointless. People rush through them in two weeks and spend the rest of all time playing endgame. Whole parts of the world are wasted to support those earlier levels and it keeps new players from getting to play with their friends right away. The concept is broken at this point and doing away with it completely wouldn't change all that much.
People always went to the store to buy things so it will always be the case. The internet changed that.
MMOS were always P2P, now there is a lot of F2P.
MMOs always had kill stealing yet they've improved systems to counter this fact.
MMOs always had brutal content that needed groups to do in order to get the best gear, now a lot of games you can get everything you need solo.
Just because MMOs have had levels does not mean they will always have levels. I even see plenty of reasons for them to move beyond levels in the future for better gameplay.
In a game that has progression, there will always be levels of some kind. MMORPGs have progression, thus levels of some kind. If you get rid of all forms of levels, such as traditional, skills, items, then it is no longer a mmorpg.
I've always liked multiple forms of levels. EQ had the traditional levels, then your skills had to be leveled, and then the alternate advancement that added more abilities.
Also, if there is progression, there will be separation from others. Someone with 1000 in 1hs is not going to want to group with someone who has a skill of 5. That person would be useless, probably unable to even hit stronger mobs, or if they can, the damage is negligible
I love progression. I love the journey. More people use to play that way, but that seems not to be the focus now. I tried WoW again when I was able to pick up Pandaria for $10. I had fun leveling up, but when I got to endgame, I was sick of it after a while.
Anyway my point was, you're going to have levels of some sort, and people will be gated , otherwise you won't be playing in a mmorpg, lol.
Levels became outdated in 1978 when a few SCA gamers created Runequest to make RPGs more realistic.
Levels are simple so it is fine that some MMOs use it but they are also dumbing down the games so I rather see a few alternatives models. Runequests or Shadowruns systems for example, both would make great MMOs which rewards you for playing without totally destroying the balance of the game.
I am not too found about current levelless MMO mechanics though. They are just too unbalanced.
In a game that has progression, there will always be levels of some kind. MMORPGs have progression, thus levels of some kind. If you get rid of all forms of levels, such as traditional, skills, items, then it is no longer a mmorpg.
I've always liked multiple forms of levels. EQ had the traditional levels, then your skills had to be leveled, and then the alternate advancement that added more abilities.
Also, if there is progression, there will be separation from others. Someone with 1000 in 1hs is not going to want to group with someone who has a skill of 5. That person would be useless, probably unable to even hit stronger mobs, or if they can, the damage is negligible
I love progression. I love the journey. More people use to play that way, but that seems not to be the focus now. I tried WoW again when I was able to pick up Pandaria for $10. I had fun leveling up, but when I got to endgame, I was sick of it after a while.
Anyway my point was, you're going to have levels of some sort, and people will be gated , otherwise you won't be playing in a mmorpg, lol.
My initial point was always that you will require levels of some sort or another. I just dislike the traditional system of leveling from 1 - 60 and then onto raid gear.
I would like to see a broadly competitive base point and small improvements upon that; they might be small incremental improvements in your general power (very small advantages) or trade, politics, construction, exploration, skill discovery, aesthetic rewards, titles etc. There would be something to work towards that would differentiate you from other players and yes you could call them levels but they would not create the huge level gap you get in most mmo's.
In fact all areas would be equally as useful to all players despite their 'level'.
An example might simply be this, say their are three play styles, melee, ranged and magic (I hate magic but will run with it). Depending upon which you choose you enter that school, but you must complete certain tasks to do so. This is not leveling in the traditional sense, more an entrance exam. And then once you have entered your school you must progress through it via the completion of more tasks spread throughout the entire world.
You are not leveling as such, but there are tasks that must be completed for small advantages and prestige rewards.
And once all this is done you can still walk out into the starter area and you are not so far removed from the newbies as to make the area worthless. You can farm there, group, do whatever you choose to in any part of the map and it will assist you in your trading, crafting, exploration etc. In addition, that first dungeon you entered, you have now unlocked the second level of it as a result of your general progression through the game. It is not significantly harder but you have now earned the key and the rewards that come with it.
There would be something to work towards that would differentiate you from other players and yes you could call them levels but they would not create the huge level gap you get in most mmo's.
A small amount of differentiation sounds like being a little bit pregnant.
There would be something to work towards that would differentiate you from other players and yes you could call them levels but they would not create the huge level gap you get in most mmo's.
A small amount of differentiation sounds like being a little bit pregnant.
Which only leads to better things. Until they reach their teens and become a pin in the arse. WOW isn't far off that.
For a long time there were two schools of thought on this.
Ultima Online model (1997) - Designed with no levels or classes but used rankable skill selections. Some skills increased faster than others based on player choice.
Everquest Model (1999) - Kill monsters until your character gains enough XP to level up. All stats on your character increase at the same time in a single instant or "ding." WoW is actually and Everquest clone when it comes to leveling design.
What the industry really needs is an entirely new design as both the UO model and EQ model feel rather dated. I really like the Vindictus model which introduced new types of progression.
Vindictus Model (2010) - Players have levels but the mobs don't. Zones are gated by a point system. Get 100+ points in mission before you are allowed to go the next. Players become more powerful by gaining titles. An example title would be kill zone boss 5 times and gain +5 STR and +5 INT. This can loosely be called title based progression. Some original players have 400+ titles and are much more powerful than newer players that only have 150 titles at level cap.
In contrast to the UO or EQ model where one could gain XP from any monster the 'cons' to gain levels. In Vindictus specific things have to be done to power up your character. No other MMO has this system as far as I know.
I don't think that levelling is outmoded as much as improperly implemented in most titles. To be clear, all progression is levelling, so it would be difficult to create a game where levelling didn't happen in some form, but the idea of creating all of this empty real estate just to pretend that there is a world out there, when 90% of your player base is just going to follow whatever cow path has been laid out for them really seems dumb and wasteful to me.
The problem of course is that levelling is one of the single most lucrative means of getting a player to keep playing, and so other, less popular ideas are not only overlooked but often not even dared.
Even more so the problem with levelling now days is that there isn't even any risk attached to it anymore. As far as I know, most of these games simply give the player experience (in a twisted metonymic placebo puzzle of making them think that they are actually doing something when they are not) simply for spending time in the game hitting buttons. I suspect, and I honestly believe this, that given the time, a monkey could achieve max level in any of these titles. That is, provide you had enough banana's to keep him interested in playing.
The original rogue* game allowed you to level. It gave you gear too, but upon death it sent you all the way back to the beginning, every time, and you lost all of your gear. As simple a game as it was, straight line travel, zero scenery, and only a few options to change what was definitely a linear path, it still made you think, take your time, and it charged you dearly for taking risks. And who here that ever played that game is going to tell me that it wasn't epic?
20 some years later Rogue is now the MMO and it is BORING. That's because the whole reason and purpose behind leveling in the first place, which was simply to make it easier to reach your previous level of incompetency in the dungeon faster, has been removed from the game.
Originally posted by botrytis People on this forum, always talk about progression - levels are progression whether it is skill or an actual level. Peopl who are wanting outmoded levels at the same will want progression. Can't have it both ways.
Exactly! If levels are not the measure of progression, what is? Do we all just start out at "end game", fully grown?
Progression is a measure of a character, no matter what is measured, be it levels, skills, gear, abilities, what have you. Something will be measured and compared to see if a character "qualifies."
Otherwise, there is no progression or growth.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Levels became outdated in 1978 when a few SCA gamers created Runequest to make RPGs more realistic.
Levels are simple so it is fine that some MMOs use it but they are also dumbing down the games so I rather see a few alternatives models. Runequests or Shadowruns systems for example, both would make great MMOs which rewards you for playing without totally destroying the balance of the game.
I am not too found about current levelless MMO mechanics though. They are just too unbalanced.
Mate, how could lvls been outdated in 1978? MMO's didn't even excist then. Computers weren't widely spread for that matter. Furthermore not some MMO's but most use lvls.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
we need to see mmos without levels. TSW tried it but all it did was hide the levels behind the skills instead of the character.
I love the idea of an mmo where you gain proficiency with the weapon / skill / gear you use while your character doesnt gain any levels. Imagine SKyrim without the character levels.
While GW2 doesnt have the proficiency system, thanks to the level scaling up and down it feels like you dont even have to focus on getting the levels. i love that too. Just wished there was gear / skill proficiency so the leveling would be less important. I would love it even more. But still...
...Im tired of the leveling system in games and mmos, i would kill for a real levelless mmorpg, no experience bar, no character leves, only pure proficiency and deep crafting that really matters.
Originally posted by botrytis People on this forum, always talk about progression - levels are progression whether it is skill or an actual level. Peopl who are wanting outmoded levels at the same will want progression.
Can't have it both ways.
Exactly! If levels are not the measure of progression, what is? Do we all just start out at "end game", fully grown?
Progression is a measure of a character, no matter what is measured, be it levels, skills, gear, abilities, what have you. Something will be measured and compared to see if a character "qualifies."
Otherwise, there is no progression or growth.
I wish people would read the original post before commenting on it.
Levels became outdated in 1978 when a few SCA gamers created Runequest to make RPGs more realistic.
Levels are simple so it is fine that some MMOs use it but they are also dumbing down the games so I rather see a few alternatives models. Runequests or Shadowruns systems for example, both would make great MMOs which rewards you for playing without totally destroying the balance of the game.
I am not too found about current levelless MMO mechanics though. They are just too unbalanced.
Skill levels are still levels. And encounters were all over the place in Runequest. I remember whole parties wiped on a couple of relatively weak mobs and then at times the party would wipe out extremely powerful mobs easily with just few swings.
Encounters were far more predictable (in a good way) in games like D&D. Adjusting challenge was far easier too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by botrytis People on this forum, always talk about progression - levels are progression whether it is skill or an actual level. Peopl who are wanting outmoded levels at the same will want progression.
Can't have it both ways.
Exactly! If levels are not the measure of progression, what is? Do we all just start out at "end game", fully grown?
Progression is a measure of a character, no matter what is measured, be it levels, skills, gear, abilities, what have you. Something will be measured and compared to see if a character "qualifies."
Otherwise, there is no progression or growth.
I wish people would read the original post before commenting on it.
me too.. I see a big word in there "TRADITIONAL" that seems to be ignored.. The topic isn't about ALL levels being outmoded.. Anyways!!!.. lol
Comments
Well, your OPINION is as much welcomed, as you thank for mine.
That works out great ... since i know likely that when i get to top tier, my DPS will not be gimped. The difference between toons at same tier at max level is much smaller than at different levels.
Isn't that what "more balance" mean?
I agree with you. Reducing the power gap would solve a lot of problems, and you could avoid gated content and linearity to some extent. That alone will not work. The world have to build up accordingly. And by the way, in old UO it was rather similar to this. Newby startet at 33 HP at maximum was 100 HP. With overall points to spent of 200 in 3 stats(Str(=HP), int(=Mana), dex).
And about the colored text. This was the old PvP rank system in World of Warcraft. But in WoW the problem was that pvp gear was available through the rank system.. and the last rank only even possible if you played for weeks/month more or less 24/7. After a few month the pve raider with there epic gear came into the pvp battlegrounds and rocked everything with almost no pvper having the complete pvp epic gear, which by comparsion even sucked against the pve epic gear.
Short time after they removed that system.
like I said.. you must not play much.. When is the last time in WoW you grouped up your lvl 70 with a newbie and enjoyed a good fun hour of thrills and excitement.. WoW is one of the prime examples of WORST leveling progression ever created.. When today's maxed out characters can SOLO a raid dungeons from a previous expansion that is ALL the proof needed.. Open world PvP became a joke because a maxed level character could go around ONE SHOTTING anyone more then 20 levels below them..
The important thing is for you to learn from your mistakes.
Agreed.. I've always said that today's games are more Esport then RPG.. I don't know if we'll ever get back our RPG worlds.. Everything seems live in an instance.. (Sad)
And who don't have a max level toon in WOW? Most players i know (before i quit) have multiple max level toons. The true newbie is few and far .. and so what if i don't group with them?
And what does open pvp has to do with it? There is none in WOW. Open world pvp is just not that popular in MMOs.
Thank you for your OPINION.
yes, because e-sport is popular. In fact, the innovation is to take the e-sport out and make a game on its own (like LoL, WoT ...) Those games are a lot more popular than any "true" MMOs.
Whether it is sad or not depends on your preference. If you are on the wrong side of the market, what can i say?
According to you?
And if not, just relabel them something else. Problem solved.
And what *you* want from MMORPG .. is not necessarily what other wants. Personally, i am more than happy to wait in the lobby for the next dungeon, providing that the combat & dungeon design is fun.
I just love the concept of levels in an mmo, it lets me see if i'm good enough to kill mobs x lvl's above me. In most games that's about 3-5 although i've had some where i could get up to 7 lvls. It allows you to test your skills. And I'm sorry but games without lvls are just boring IMO. If you say that lvls distract you from the story you're dead wrong, in any decent MMO's the progression in lvls just makes the story better.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
Levels will always be one of the simplest and most elegant designs for indicating player progression, so clearly they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Because it has always been therefore it always will be is a bad line of reasoning.
Things improve and change all the time. Video games are no exception. I fully expect there to be plenty of games in the future that get rid of leveling. In most MMOs right now levels are fairly pointless. People rush through them in two weeks and spend the rest of all time playing endgame. Whole parts of the world are wasted to support those earlier levels and it keeps new players from getting to play with their friends right away. The concept is broken at this point and doing away with it completely wouldn't change all that much.
People always went to the store to buy things so it will always be the case. The internet changed that.
MMOS were always P2P, now there is a lot of F2P.
MMOs always had kill stealing yet they've improved systems to counter this fact.
MMOs always had brutal content that needed groups to do in order to get the best gear, now a lot of games you can get everything you need solo.
Just because MMOs have had levels does not mean they will always have levels. I even see plenty of reasons for them to move beyond levels in the future for better gameplay.
In a game that has progression, there will always be levels of some kind. MMORPGs have progression, thus levels of some kind. If you get rid of all forms of levels, such as traditional, skills, items, then it is no longer a mmorpg.
I've always liked multiple forms of levels. EQ had the traditional levels, then your skills had to be leveled, and then the alternate advancement that added more abilities.
Also, if there is progression, there will be separation from others. Someone with 1000 in 1hs is not going to want to group with someone who has a skill of 5. That person would be useless, probably unable to even hit stronger mobs, or if they can, the damage is negligible
I love progression. I love the journey. More people use to play that way, but that seems not to be the focus now. I tried WoW again when I was able to pick up Pandaria for $10. I had fun leveling up, but when I got to endgame, I was sick of it after a while.
Anyway my point was, you're going to have levels of some sort, and people will be gated , otherwise you won't be playing in a mmorpg, lol.
Levels became outdated in 1978 when a few SCA gamers created Runequest to make RPGs more realistic.
Levels are simple so it is fine that some MMOs use it but they are also dumbing down the games so I rather see a few alternatives models. Runequests or Shadowruns systems for example, both would make great MMOs which rewards you for playing without totally destroying the balance of the game.
I am not too found about current levelless MMO mechanics though. They are just too unbalanced.
My initial point was always that you will require levels of some sort or another. I just dislike the traditional system of leveling from 1 - 60 and then onto raid gear.
I would like to see a broadly competitive base point and small improvements upon that; they might be small incremental improvements in your general power (very small advantages) or trade, politics, construction, exploration, skill discovery, aesthetic rewards, titles etc. There would be something to work towards that would differentiate you from other players and yes you could call them levels but they would not create the huge level gap you get in most mmo's.
In fact all areas would be equally as useful to all players despite their 'level'.
An example might simply be this, say their are three play styles, melee, ranged and magic (I hate magic but will run with it). Depending upon which you choose you enter that school, but you must complete certain tasks to do so. This is not leveling in the traditional sense, more an entrance exam. And then once you have entered your school you must progress through it via the completion of more tasks spread throughout the entire world.
You are not leveling as such, but there are tasks that must be completed for small advantages and prestige rewards.
And once all this is done you can still walk out into the starter area and you are not so far removed from the newbies as to make the area worthless. You can farm there, group, do whatever you choose to in any part of the map and it will assist you in your trading, crafting, exploration etc. In addition, that first dungeon you entered, you have now unlocked the second level of it as a result of your general progression through the game. It is not significantly harder but you have now earned the key and the rewards that come with it.
A small amount of differentiation sounds like being a little bit pregnant.
Which only leads to better things. Until they reach their teens and become a pin in the arse. WOW isn't far off that.
For a long time there were two schools of thought on this.
Ultima Online model (1997) - Designed with no levels or classes but used rankable skill selections. Some skills increased faster than others based on player choice.
Everquest Model (1999) - Kill monsters until your character gains enough XP to level up. All stats on your character increase at the same time in a single instant or "ding." WoW is actually and Everquest clone when it comes to leveling design.
What the industry really needs is an entirely new design as both the UO model and EQ model feel rather dated. I really like the Vindictus model which introduced new types of progression.
Vindictus Model (2010) - Players have levels but the mobs don't. Zones are gated by a point system. Get 100+ points in mission before you are allowed to go the next. Players become more powerful by gaining titles. An example title would be kill zone boss 5 times and gain +5 STR and +5 INT. This can loosely be called title based progression. Some original players have 400+ titles and are much more powerful than newer players that only have 150 titles at level cap.
In contrast to the UO or EQ model where one could gain XP from any monster the 'cons' to gain levels. In Vindictus specific things have to be done to power up your character. No other MMO has this system as far as I know.
I don't think that levelling is outmoded as much as improperly implemented in most titles. To be clear, all progression is levelling, so it would be difficult to create a game where levelling didn't happen in some form, but the idea of creating all of this empty real estate just to pretend that there is a world out there, when 90% of your player base is just going to follow whatever cow path has been laid out for them really seems dumb and wasteful to me.
The problem of course is that levelling is one of the single most lucrative means of getting a player to keep playing, and so other, less popular ideas are not only overlooked but often not even dared.
Even more so the problem with levelling now days is that there isn't even any risk attached to it anymore. As far as I know, most of these games simply give the player experience (in a twisted metonymic placebo puzzle of making them think that they are actually doing something when they are not) simply for spending time in the game hitting buttons. I suspect, and I honestly believe this, that given the time, a monkey could achieve max level in any of these titles. That is, provide you had enough banana's to keep him interested in playing.
The original rogue* game allowed you to level. It gave you gear too, but upon death it sent you all the way back to the beginning, every time, and you lost all of your gear. As simple a game as it was, straight line travel, zero scenery, and only a few options to change what was definitely a linear path, it still made you think, take your time, and it charged you dearly for taking risks. And who here that ever played that game is going to tell me that it wasn't epic?
20 some years later Rogue is now the MMO and it is BORING. That's because the whole reason and purpose behind leveling in the first place, which was simply to make it easier to reach your previous level of incompetency in the dungeon faster, has been removed from the game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)
Progression is a measure of a character, no matter what is measured, be it levels, skills, gear, abilities, what have you. Something will be measured and compared to see if a character "qualifies."
Otherwise, there is no progression or growth.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Mate, how could lvls been outdated in 1978? MMO's didn't even excist then. Computers weren't widely spread for that matter. Furthermore not some MMO's but most use lvls.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
we need to see mmos without levels. TSW tried it but all it did was hide the levels behind the skills instead of the character.
I love the idea of an mmo where you gain proficiency with the weapon / skill / gear you use while your character doesnt gain any levels. Imagine SKyrim without the character levels.
While GW2 doesnt have the proficiency system, thanks to the level scaling up and down it feels like you dont even have to focus on getting the levels. i love that too. Just wished there was gear / skill proficiency so the leveling would be less important. I would love it even more. But still...
...Im tired of the leveling system in games and mmos, i would kill for a real levelless mmorpg, no experience bar, no character leves, only pure proficiency and deep crafting that really matters.
I wish people would read the original post before commenting on it.
Skill levels are still levels. And encounters were all over the place in Runequest. I remember whole parties wiped on a couple of relatively weak mobs and then at times the party would wipe out extremely powerful mobs easily with just few swings.
Encounters were far more predictable (in a good way) in games like D&D. Adjusting challenge was far easier too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
me too.. I see a big word in there "TRADITIONAL" that seems to be ignored.. The topic isn't about ALL levels being outmoded.. Anyways!!!.. lol