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Design element that has hurt recent MMORPGs

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Stormsone

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by zevni78

    Originally posted by Axehilt
    All that matters to players is gameplay quality.
    Interesting decisions are a big part of that.Games can have interesting decisions while being completely linear -- unless you want to try to convince most players they didn't have fun playing Portal.
    So fixating on lines is pretty irrelevant.In most cases, depending on the "line", a line doesn't reduct the amount of interesting decisions a game offers.  When it does, sure it's bad.  When it doesn't, no harm has been done.

    A "line" destroys immersion if your supposed to be exploring an open world, and it ruins re-playability with alts. I want freedom, spontainious variation, hard to get that in a linear context. Portal isnt an mmo, lines always feel too single player, that is why more and more are failing to complete PVE lvling in games like WoW, even if it's open world, it might as well not be.
    But that is "inefficient." Lines make the game much more efficient.
    Yes lines are efficient but as everyone should know circles are stronger. If getting to point a from point b is all you care about.... then carry on and keep supporting the same old same old. I for one would like to take a step in a new direction, I do have my doubts about the upcoming mmo's but I hope they are wrong and turn out to be a step in the right direction.
    My apologies. I should have indicated my sarcasm better. My response was a sarcastic remark to Axehilt's. I get the feeling from some of his posts that anything that lessens a game's efficiency is a "bad thing."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • LogicLesterLogicLester Claremont, CAPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

     

    The Sandbox games are eliciting HUGE interest, so I think the "niche" comment is off-base.  And most (95%+) of the linear storyline MMO's have been splashing and crashing for 10 years, no matter how polished, how uber the graphics, or how epic the IP.  I mean, really, how can something based upon the LOTR IP and following the three LOTR movies be FTP within two years?  C'mon.  (Hint:  The "line" killed it.)

     

    HUGE is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think you're also reading too much into the marketing hype.  It's highly unlikely EQN will be the new UO or SWG, it's much more likely to be yet another WoW clone, with a little "sandbox" tossed in.  Will it be great?  Heck if I know.  Will it be the new Mecca for sandboxers?  I seriously doubt it, but who knows.

     

    As far as lotro goes, it was a crap game, like pretty much all MMOs since wow have been.  I don't doubt it has fans out there, like all MMOs tend to, but there is simply no debating that, at launch, it was crap.  And the customers in this genre by and large don't give second chances, there's too many competitors out there for them to try instead.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    The worst design element of almost all recent MMORPGs is that they all tried to copy WoW (and failed).

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • BrucyBonusBrucyBonus londonPosts: 220Member

    Personally I think that the worst design change is the removal of large open worlds to explore.  Now that quests are generally on rails, so are the worlds they are played out in.  More often than not you are hemmed in by invisible walls or the environment itself with strangle rectangular mountain ranges/ rivers/ structures.  

    There are no more hidden areas of interest; you can no longer stumble upon an obscure out-of-the-way quest, it either doesn't exist or you are lead to it by the nose.  The entire map is revealed to you from the outset and there are fast travel points everywhere.  There is no longer any sense of exploration.  

    There was an article about this but the map has merely become a tool to reach cap in the fastest possible time.  After 1-3 months most of the map is entirely redundant as the population play the end-game in a few discrete hub-towns/ raids/ battlegrounds.    It is no longer about the journey and only about the destination.   

    Personally I think that developers need to realize that traditional levels are an outmoded concept.  Removing traditional levels will enable the entire map to be used by everyone all the time; and other goals can be offered such as; small incremental improvements, rare skills, aesthetic items, exploration, titles, rare mounts/ pets etc, construction, economy, politics etc etc.  

     

  • LogicLesterLogicLester Claremont, CAPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by neurojame

     I'd rather have a "Choose your own adventure" book...

    Remember those from when we were young? They were popular because they were non-linear.

    Ultimately we are novelty seeking creatures. Things that are different and unexpected are seen as fun because they are novel to us. The reason that MMOs are seen as stagnate is because their elements resemble other games we've played, are not novel and therefore are not seen as fun.

    Increase the non-linearity, the randomness and the player generated content (with some restraints). This will increase the novelty and fun.

     

    I remember those, and I enjoyed them.  Especially that Gamma World one, and some fantasy one that even had leveling and loot, with a character sheet in the back of the book!  But they weren't great stories, and they weren't bestsellers.

     

    I doubt they even could have been great stories if they'd been written by better authors.  Their structure is too formulaic and I have to imagine you give up something to include those branching plots.  Whether creativity would suffer, time limitations would be hit, or the story would be overly long, I think the quality would be diminished by writing in that style.  And I believe it's similar for MMOs.

  • simmihisimmihi -Posts: 615Member Uncommon

    1. Lack of choice. To be "the best" you have to follow the exact pattern as everyone else. If you are not following it, you will end up severely gimped. If you are not "the best", no one will want you. You will be reminded by others that you need to "change" in order to be "the best" = a copy of everyone else. The "endgame" is designed to be beaten only if you are "the best", only if you "pull your numbers". The most common subject at endgame is numbers, what numbers everyone pulled.

     

    2. Balance. The most idiotic thing. All DPS should be able to pull the same numbers with equal equipment. Flavor-less classes. Same numbers = there are no "special" classes, able to mass CC, able to mezz etc. Considering the "equal numbers" needed, such an improvement to only some classes would be considered "OP".

     

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Internet prophets are a dime a dozen.

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious 

    That's what I feel is changing and what the OP also stated.  WoW has been around nine years now and though the "WoW model" did not start in 2004 the years after have come closer and closer to design concentration.  Now we have a sea of themepark F2P conversions, WoW losing 12% of their sub base in one year and the other major MMO EvE is a sandbox. 

    It may be that people are looking for something different. 

    While that doesn't nessesarily mean a sandbox (or sand-ish, etc.) having a linear quest system be the base of progression certainly is a commonality and a sandbox-ish game changes that.  I get that enjoyable gameplay is important but where is the line between enjoyment and getting bored doing the same thing? The gameplay doesn't change but my enjoyment of it does.

    Players are looking for something different, but not the way the OP is implying.

    Sonic the Hedgehog is a relatively linear game.  It was only one in a long line of content-driven games with relatively narrow focuses like Mario, Zelda, Halo, and Bioshock.  (These types of games have been around since the dawn of gaming.)

    A while after Sonic released, its popularity was on the decline.  Gamer A might accurately state that people are simply done with Sonic: that particular gameplay pattern is now old and tired.   Gamer B might recklessly declare it to be the downfall of content-driven gaming entirely.

    History would prove that Gamer B was completely off-base, with the release of Wolfenstein 3D, Secret of Mana, Doom 2, etc.

    Basically it's accurate to say gamers want new gameplay patterns, but complete nonsense to claim that the entire framework is somehow broken.  

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Aelious 

    That's what I feel is changing and what the OP also stated.  WoW has been around nine years now and though the "WoW model" did not start in 2004 the years after have come closer and closer to design concentration.  Now we have a sea of themepark F2P conversions, WoW losing 12% of their sub base in one year and the other major MMO EvE is a sandbox. 

    It may be that people are looking for something different. 

    While that doesn't nessesarily mean a sandbox (or sand-ish, etc.) having a linear quest system be the base of progression certainly is a commonality and a sandbox-ish game changes that.  I get that enjoyable gameplay is important but where is the line between enjoyment and getting bored doing the same thing? The gameplay doesn't change but my enjoyment of it does.

    Players are looking for something different, but not the way the OP is implying.

    Sonic the Hedgehog is a relatively linear game.  It was only one in a long line of content-driven games with relatively narrow focuses like Mario, Zelda, Halo, and Bioshock.  (These types of games have been around since the dawn of gaming.)

    A while after Sonic released, its popularity was on the decline.  Gamer A might accurately state that people are simply done with Sonic: that particular gameplay pattern is now old and tired.   Gamer B might recklessly declare it to be the downfall of content-driven gaming entirely.

    History would prove that Gamer B was completely off-base, with the release of Wolfenstein 3D, Secret of Mana, Doom 2, etc.

    Basically it's accurate to say gamers want new gameplay patterns, but complete nonsense to claim that the entire framework is somehow broken.  

    You know, people like all sorts of food, and as long as they enjoy what they like, I suppose the type of food does not much matter.  However, a forum about pizza is a forum about pizza, and to bring up ice cream and cheeseburgers in such a forum, making the claim that people like different types of food, is a bit nonsensical and off-track.

    The same goes for MMORPG's.  This is a MMORPG forum.  So stuff like Portal, Mario, Halo, Bioshock, while all great games, are NOT MMORPG's.

    And, as far as it being "nonsense to claim that the entire framework (of MMO's) is broken", I think previous points about WOW losing subs and WOW clones almost immediately declining and going FTP speaks for itself.  The framework is broken.

    And the framework is being rebuilt, starting with EQ Next.  YAY!!!!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    The same goes for MMORPG's.  This is a MMORPG forum.  So stuff like Portal, Mario, Halo, Bioshock, while all great games, are NOT MMORPG's.

    Yet this forum put non-MMOs like D3, WoT, LoL .. (a long list) in the same list as MMOs. MMO is just a label. There is no reason not to discuss games that is close enough in gameplay style.

    D3 instance dungeon is very little difference than a MMO instance dungeon. You push a LFD button, and you are there with a few others killing stuff.

    WoT instance battle is very little difference (in style, not combat mechanics) than a MMo arena/battleground.

    In fact, isn't the normal rant here that MMOs are moving towards these games? If so, why restrict the discussion to traditional MMOs and ignore the new progress?

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    The same goes for MMORPG's.  This is a MMORPG forum.  So stuff like Portal, Mario, Halo, Bioshock, while all great games, are NOT MMORPG's.

    Yet this forum put non-MMOs like D3, WoT, LoL .. (a long list) in the same list as MMOs. MMO is just a label. There is no reason not to discuss games that is close enough in gameplay style.

    D3 instance dungeon is very little difference than a MMO instance dungeon. You push a LFD button, and you are there with a few others killing stuff.

    WoT instance battle is very little difference (in style, not combat mechanics) than a MMo arena/battleground.

    In fact, isn't the normal rant here that MMOs are moving towards these games? If so, why restrict the discussion to traditional MMOs and ignore the new progress?

    Pizza and hamburgers are not the same thing.  Single player games and MMO's are not the same thing.  All are tasty.

    Now, while this forum can sometimes be all over the place, this thread is about MMORPG's.

    I get that you and a few others on this board like games that are fast, free, fun, guided, and make you feel like your characters is "The One" or accomplishing something. I truly get that.  And, there are plenty of games out there to suit just that niche, mostly single player or single player-like.  Plenty of them.  But hardly "progress."

    But, this is an MMORPG thread on a predominately MMORPG forum (supposedly).

     

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,441Member Uncommon

    This has been happening since rpg's began and imo it will NEVER change.Sandbox is a misused label,there has never been a sandbox game and there never will.You could have some sandbox elements such as NW and it's quest creator,to be honest all games have some form of sandbox it them,such as the Auction house is all player run but you will never have a complete Sandbox game,otherwise it wouldn't be a game at all ,it would be a set of tools to allow a game to evolve from them.

    Even still a set tools is not for everyone,heck some people probably couldn't use them anyhow.IMo you always need something to strive for,games have just been shallow in content and how you do it.jump map,seriously,that takes no effort,dungeons,well a bit more effort nothing on the creative side is done there.

    Even the simplest idea which every game has "Quests" are done with no creativity,just pure simple laziness in design.I can look at FFXI and they tied quests into rank and fame ,yes many games do it differently via invidule factions but at least either way shows some added effort by the developer.

    Then we have the other simple idea which is combat/killing.Most games just give you mobs to kill and nothing more,how shallow is that?However better quality devs tie systems into them like FFXI and Conquest points ,or many of their other sanctions,some games again tie faction into who you kill raising it some and lowering your faction in others.Some games again FFXI created a whole player>player system known as Renkai and then preceded to add magic bursts and also elemental propereties for resistances and added damage.

    I can take it one step further,yep you guessed it FFXI again,they added a system that gave bonus xp for stringing kills together in a certain amount of time.All those little things separate AAA from AA game design.I could go on and on with MANY more ideas like EQ2 housing ect ect,but i think you get the point.The LINEAR does not have to be totally removed,the game design just needs to better from developers.I can guarantee this,going f2p is NOT going to encourage more effort from developers,only less effort more corner cutting.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I get that you and a few others on this board like games that are fast, free, fun, guided, and make you feel like your characters is "The One" or accomplishing something. I truly get that.  And, there are plenty of games out there to suit just that niche, mostly single player or single player-like.  Plenty of them.  But hardly "progress."

    But, this is an MMORPG thread on a predominately MMORPG forum (supposedly).

     

    You are describing modern MMOs.

    And secondly, there is plenty of debate of the definition of MMO. There are those who even claim Destiny may be one. If there is debate, why should we just include those games in the discussion? It is not like the playstyle is very different from MMOs anyway.

    Tell me, do you really think that it is very different clicking a button and go into a dungeon with 3 other players in D3, and click a button and go into a dungeon with 4 others in WOW?

     

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
         Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..
  • SacriaSacria naPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    This

     

    --------------------------------------------------->

     

    It's called a line.  And the devs have been engineering gameplay so that you are always following it.

    This is changing.  

    AAA PVE fantasy sandbox MMORPG's are on their way.

    I disagree, deviation from things that worked into 100% grindfests with nothing else to do other than grind for months ruined current gen mmo's

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    Linearity isn't the problem at all imho. 

    An MMO needs to have certain elements to keep you invested. 

    whatever you are doing should be rewarding in 3-ways

    a) character progression

    b) meaningful loot

    c) a surprise element

     

    A: character progression should be harder and more difficult than currently is the case in MMO's. There is no reward in simply doing tasks for random NPC's and leveling up as you go. The act of leveling up should be half the fun, as it was in the old days. Leveling up should allow you to allocate points and customize your char so you want to chase that next level. Imho the way in which you kill mobs and complete quests is completely overrated. Take GW2 for example. Nice presentation of content but it completely lacks connection to your char. It doesn't feel like there is any customization. Leveling is easy and when you level you hardly bother stopping. You just keep going and before you know it you are lvl 80. You can take 10 seconds to put that point in a tree that hardly does anything at all. And you can reset it anyway. I have had multiple friends leveling up to 30 without spending any points or even buying more than 3 skills because they didn't feel like it mattered. Yes its nice that you can walk around and take in the scenery. But after looking at the different zones and figuring out what the game truly is about you are done with it. Unless you find yourself a nice guild to keep you entertained. I daresay most gameplay elements are not that important at all. It is not the core element in MMORPG's. It was never meant to be. MMORPG's imho are about mp aspects (pvp) combined with slow and tough character progression and customization to achieve a uniqueness in both looks and playstyle. 

    We should go back to irreversible character progression that you had to think about beforehand. This means you would feel incredibly connected with you char because you are truly invested in it and it is really YOUR char. Also you are excited each time you can progress. 

    B: Loot is f$cked. These static loot sheets that are used in every single mmorpg is bs. Only 1 game atm does it right, path of exile. No more explanation is needed me thinks. Now that I think about it. Path of Exile probably also has a lot going for it's character progression and customization concerning playstyle.

    C: Surprises are soooo important. It is massively online!! It is THE platform that should enable for all sorts of UNEXPTECTED shit going on while you play. Random boss spawn, random event, random PvP events (i believe these dont even exist yet), random loot, random PvP encounter in open world pvp games. Why isn't more of this shit happening? SURPRISE! the 1-in-a-billion-super-legendary item just dropped. SURPRISE attack from the rear you have lost 25% experience fuck you! and pay more attention next time. Surprise rare tameable pet just spawned, catch it while you can. 

    These things would add so much to a game. And right now nobody is doing it right imho. These are things that should be in an MMORPG. Not quests... What's the most boring part in any mmorpg? Ask anyone.. friggin quests. Why are they still in? Look at the older more popular MMORPGs that got the genre started. They had barely any quests if at all. 

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    --------------------------------------------------->

    I see it more like:

    --------------------------------------------------->

    Dashes are invidually crafted and thus expensive (in both time and money) to produce.

    The line is not the problem, the line is simply a logical result of all the cost:benefit tradeoffs amongst different methods of producing and laying out dashes.

    If you want to hype that you're going to break the line, you need to convince me that your game can efficiently produce high-quality dashes.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..

    Linear stories work and they are nothing but dressing to have an excuse to kill lots of stuff.

    And no players i have seen have created an in-game bio .. that is just too much work. Better to have the professionals do it .. and we just enjoy the result.

    A mmo with no story is just a grind fest with no context.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Title is misleading the subject of the OP is just Sandbox is god!!!!No basis for discussion.
  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Whether an individual has fun is subjective. Many individuals having fun with Portal is objective.  It's by no means a cop-out to discuss these straightforward facts.  It would be a cop-out if we avoided the conversation entirely just because fun is subjective on an individual basis.

    ...

    Yeap. But your analogy sucks nevertheless. Portal, and for that matter a lot of linear single player games are fun as long as the last. But in most cases you play through it one time. And then it is good. The content is not repeatable, the content is not dynamicly regenerating itself. You do it one time, and as long as it is good designed it is fun, but not a second time. (and if it comes down to themeparks where one game is more or less the same as the other.. it is like we have played portal 1- 100 and we are sick of the exact same puzzle every new game)

    And exactly that don't work in a multiplayer game, which should be designed to played for a much longer time. And exactly that is the reason why themeparks don't work, and why every themepark loses a lot of player after a very short time. The content is consumed, and the game is not capable of producing content out of it alone.

    And therefore you need other elements, so that content will be different(even if it is just slightly different as one themepark to another) every time you visit it. Like travelling from a to b and every time another surprise, another content to be cosumed. And the best way to realize it are sandbox tools and/or pvp content.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..

    Linear stories work and they are nothing but dressing to have an excuse to kill lots of stuff.

    And no players i have seen have created an in-game bio .. that is just too much work. Better to have the professionals do it .. and we just enjoy the result.

    A mmo with no story is just a grind fest with no context.

    And thank you for your OPINION..  I on the other have played games that allowed Bio's, and enjoyed the history those characters created.. I think you just haven't been around the block often enough to enjoy the MMORPG'ing that some of us have.. 

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    You know, people like all sorts of food, and as long as they enjoy what they like, I suppose the type of food does not much matter.  However, a forum about pizza is a forum about pizza, and to bring up ice cream and cheeseburgers in such a forum, making the claim that people like different types of food, is a bit nonsensical and off-track.

    The same goes for MMORPG's.  This is a MMORPG forum.  So stuff like Portal, Mario, Halo, Bioshock, while all great games, are NOT MMORPG's.

    And, as far as it being "nonsense to claim that the entire framework (of MMO's) is broken", I think previous points about WOW losing subs and WOW clones almost immediately declining and going FTP speaks for itself.  The framework is broken.

    And the framework is being rebuilt, starting with EQ Next.  YAY!!!!

    Are you serious?

    First, 99% of those F2P games are themeparks.  Players are moving away from WOW towards more of the same content-driven gaming.  They're not sticking to one game, because the payment model doesn't force them into a massive upfront fee with a subscription -- they're free to actively bounce between the games that interest them (which happen to overwhelmingly be themeparks.)

    And second, if someone pointed out a historic precedent which happened in the Cheeseburger business, people in a Pizza forum would listen to that obviously reasonable and valid evidence.  They would understand that (like MMOs and non-MMOs) the products are ridiculously similar and that the lessons learned in one business are nearly always applicable to the other.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..

    Linear stories work and they are nothing but dressing to have an excuse to kill lots of stuff.

    And no players i have seen have created an in-game bio .. that is just too much work. Better to have the professionals do it .. and we just enjoy the result.

    A mmo with no story is just a grind fest with no context.

    And thank you for your OPINION..  I on the other have played games that allowed Bio's, and enjoyed the history those characters created.. I think you just haven't been around the block often enough to enjoy the MMORPG'ing that some of us have.. 

    Is starting to play in precursors to MMOs like Kingdom of Drakkar long enough?

    I played EQ for a year .. and for that whole year .. there is no one i have met that have created any stories. The most is ".. oh .. i camped here for 3 hours, got trained twice, and nothing drop". That is not a story .. not a story in the context of lore anyway.

    And no one i met "stays in character" and spoke as if he was an elf. It is more like "my wife is sleeping so i can play some .. want to group to level?" .. and again .. that is not a bio i care for.

    My opinion is just as valid as yours.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    Yeap. But your analogy sucks nevertheless. Portal, and for that matter a lot of linear single player games are fun as long as the last. But in most cases you play through it one time. And then it is good. The content is not repeatable, the content is not dynamicly regenerating itself. You do it one time, and as long as it is good designed it is fun, but not a second time. (and if it comes down to themeparks where one game is more or less the same as the other.. it is like we have played portal 1- 100 and we are sick of the exact same puzzle every new game)

    And exactly that don't work in a multiplayer game, which should be designed to played for a much longer time. And exactly that is the reason why themeparks don't work, and why every themepark loses a lot of player after a very short time. The content is consumed, and the game is not capable of producing content out of it alone.

    And therefore you need other elements, so that content will be different(even if it is just slightly different as one themepark to another) every time you visit it. Like travelling from a to b and every time another surprise, another content to be cosumed. And the best way to realize it are sandbox tools and/or pvp content.

    Sure linearity reduces longevity.  But it's not some absolute thing where it prevents these from being worthwhile games to play.  It's not absolute on the other end too: being non-linear doesn't prevent a game's patterns from getting old.

    I'm still not comfortable with the ridiculous term "linear" as applied to MMORPGs, because none of them are even remotely linear.  It's pure hyperbole.  You have to fixate on some incredibly abstract singular game element to find anything actually linear ("Levels only increase?  And only one at a time?!  That makes it linear and linear games suck!") And at that point the criticism becomes meaningless.

    The truth is these MMORPGs are merely slightly less non-linear than other MMORPGs.  There is nearly always a dynamic element involved (other players in group content; different progression state; different character; different abilities being used by the mob which could have dynamically different results if designed well.)

    As for your last paragraph, what I'm disagreeing with is that you need those sandbox elements.  Games do not need that. It's sometimes helpful, for longevity reasons.  But all of the examples I've cited were games which didn't strive to be as non-linear as possible, and still did well.  Not just well, but they usually did better than games which tried to be as non-linear as possible.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    My apologies. I should have indicated my sarcasm better. My response was a sarcastic remark to Axehilt's. I get the feeling from some of his posts that anything that lessens a game's efficiency is a "bad thing."

    Right, it's always about efficiently creating a game design which delivers the most fun to the target audience.  The more efficient designers are at delivering that fun, the better games players will have to play.

    If someone discusses ways of efficiently serving a niche audience, I'm fine with that.

    I only object when someone claims that an efficient method is now permanently broken.  Especially given that this method has served and continues to serve the largest audience.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

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