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Perma-death in a MMORPG?

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  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member
    Originally posted by PsiKahn
    Originally posted by ElderRat
    Originally posted by PsiKahn
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by PsiKahn

    I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

    Dunno; how to you explain the rise of "save early/save often" in three-deaths video games, clear back in the 80s?

    Why wasn't Donkey Kong played with a single death and no saves? Surely some video game producer somewhere must've tried it, and found it very unpopular--because adding a "save the game before you try anything really hard" became an industry-wide video game standard, somehow.

    I submit that game producers did try, early on, rather a lot of compromises between /rawrhardcore and /joecasual, and ended up with the sort of compromise solutions that left the smallest number of players ragequitting.

    A death-risk "price point", sort of.

    I think I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, admittedly the single-player game sector has moved decidely away from "permadeath" over the years, though exceptions remain.  But I do think a persistent world game has a lot more to gain from a perma-death type system than does a single-player game, because of the "economy" of resources that players accrue (including wealth, items, and skills) and how those accruals afffect the other players in the game.

    I for one would not play one.. kind of interested to see how many people would pay money for one. I guess few. F2p might be an option though.

    I think there is a small, but significant, contingency of people who would be ready to try a pd game out of the gate.  But if it was well-designed and people started reporting back that it was legitimately fun, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?  Be it f2p or just a free trial, seems like there wouldn't be much to lose.  At worst you could walk away with a well-informed criticism of the game.

    To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

     

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • PsiKahnPsiKahn Woodside, NYPosts: 126Member

     

    I think there is a small, but significant, contingency of people who would be ready to try a pd game out of the gate.  But if it was well-designed and people started reporting back that it was legitimately fun, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?  Be it f2p or just a free trial, seems like there wouldn't be much to lose.  At worst you could walk away with a well-informed criticism of the game.

    To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

     

    That's why I'm in favor of something like a 100-life system rather than a 1-life system.  It let's you get a bit deeper into things rather than being just one-and-done because you happened to aggro a powerful mob by accident or lag during PvP.  But yeah, you're definitely not gonna see the major companies jumping on this bandwagon any time soon.  It's gonna be the little guy or nobody.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon

    The problem with permadeath is that is encourages timid gameplay.

    It's bragging rights to show your decked out max level character who hasn't died, but the journey to get there is invariably much safer than what normal games allow for.

    In a normal game, I see a group of mobs, I assess what abilities my character has, in what order I can derive the best synergy from them and charge into that group knowing that I can try a different combination or improve my gameplay on the next try should I fail.

    I'm sure many (if not all) people have at some point pulled mobs just to see how many they could pull and kill without dying.

    But in a permadeath game (and yes, this is exactly how they are played - I've played them, I've seen others play them, this is how it's always done) people avoid danger and repeat easy content they know their character can do.

    Anyone can just stay somewhere safe and grind easy mobs until they are sufficiently powerful to tackle a greater challenge. Now, if a game were to come out where every single fight is dangerous regardless of how much caution the player puts in, then you might have a decent permadeath game. But at it stands, it's basically who has the patience to play below the edge of their character's abilities for longer periods of time.

  • PsiKahnPsiKahn Woodside, NYPosts: 126Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    The problem with permadeath is that is encourages timid gameplay.

    It's bragging rights to show your decked out max level character who hasn't died, but the journey to get there is invariably much safer than what normal games allow for.

    In a normal game, I see a group of mobs, I assess what abilities my character has, in what order I can derive the best synergy from them and charge into that group knowing that I can try a different combination or improve my gameplay on the next try should I fail.

    I'm sure many (if not all) people have at some point pulled mobs just to see how many they could pull and kill without dying.

    But in a permadeath game (and yes, this is exactly how they are played - I've played them, I've seen others play them, this is how it's always done) people avoid danger and repeat easy content they know their character can do.

    Anyone can just stay somewhere safe and grind easy mobs until they are sufficiently powerful to tackle a greater challenge. Now, if a game were to come out where every single fight is dangerous regardless of how much caution the player puts in, then you might have a decent permadeath game. But at it stands, it's basically who has the patience to play below the edge of their character's abilities for longer periods of time.

    It certainly does encourage a more conservative playstyle, but like you say there is an allure to gaining access to things that others won't if the game is properly designed to incentivize that.  And I think what you say about making every fight dangerous is a good call.  I mean I know with ToA the devs have said that their intent is to generally squeeze the difference between high level and low level (though really it's not level-based, it's skill based), such that a low-level character could kill a stronger character with smart play and sloppy play by their opponent, and I imagine the same applies to mobs.  This makes a lot of sense to me.  They also are ditching conning, so you wouldn't know a particular mobs strength unless you've fought it before or know someone who has, and even so that wouldn't account for variance from mob to mob within the same type.  But yeah I wouldn't underestimate the bragging rights incentive.  In a pd sandbox, I feel like that carries a lot of weight.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    I felt no different playing action RPGs on hardcore mode, or rogue-mode games. Irritation regarding ironman mode in XCOM. What does that mean?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ElderRat
     

    To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

     

    It is not one or zero. You can put a PD option in a game, like D3. And D3 stat shows that 9% of the characters are PD. Given that there are 67.1M characters created .. 9% is roughly 6M. Given that you can have only 10 characters at most .. there are at least 600k players who have tried PD.

    The number is probably closer to 1.2M since i doubt most will have 2 for each class.

    Plus, D3 is certainly NOT a niche game and it has a PD option. Personally i don't play PD and never will, but D3 proves that a PD option in a AAA game can work.

  • PsiKahnPsiKahn Woodside, NYPosts: 126Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I felt no different playing action RPGs on hardcore mode, or rogue-mode games. Irritation regarding ironman mode in XCOM. What does that mean?

    I think it means you don't like action rpgs on hardcore mode, rogue-mode games, or ironman mode in XCOM.  I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at...

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ElderRat
     

    To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

     

    It is not one or zero. You can put a PD option in a game, like D3. And D3 stat shows that 9% of the characters are PD. Given that there are 67.1M characters created .. 9% is roughly 6M. Given that you can have only 10 characters at most .. there are at least 600k players who have tried PD.

    The number is probably closer to 1.2M since i doubt most will have 2 for each class.

    Plus, D3 is certainly NOT a niche game and it has a PD option. Personally i don't play PD and never will, but D3 proves that a PD option in a AAA game can work.

    as an option not as a main point of the game. That I would agree to. Heck most people don't even want to play non-consensual pvp, lose a character on one death? As a main feature of the game? Nope - don't see that happening. As a server in the game that you can choose to play on - sure I could see that but not as a main feature.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • SacriaSacria naPosts: 53Member

    I like the idea but it wouldn't work in the traditionel mmorpg a lot of things would have to change for it to work. Plus if killing other players would be possible the penalties for doing so would have to be extremely harsh and the level grind cannot be as long as it typically is in mmorpgs because having to spent a full week or more ingame (that's 168 hours ) to reach max level if something unforseen happens is too long (not counting time it takes to gear up etc).

     

    But at the moment it would be better if they worked on gameplay in mmorpgs in stead, most of them have just are just plain grindfests atm with unappealing pvp and pve.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon

    Finaly a game with perma-death.

    No I will not play this game, but let's be reall and know there might just be enough people to make the games population healthy.

    In a way it's a shame that games like this either sandbox or with perma death seem to have most feature's I would love playing in a MMORPG yet the perma death or the forced PVP are not one of them. Actually they are a turn-off for me in a MMORPG.

    But still I am glad to see a game to have the balls to try perma-death. Definitly will not be a mass-appeal game but the developers must already be aware of that.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by PsiKahn
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I felt no different playing action RPGs on hardcore mode, or rogue-mode games. Irritation regarding ironman mode in XCOM. What does that mean?

    I think it means you don't like action rpgs on hardcore mode, rogue-mode games, or ironman mode in XCOM.  I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at...

    Its not like I don't like action RPGs on hardcore mode, I just don't feel its any different from playing regular mode. And I quite like rogue-mode games. I was trying get a comment from people who think permadeath makes a game more exciting for everyone.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ElderRat
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ElderRat
     

    To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

     

    It is not one or zero. You can put a PD option in a game, like D3. And D3 stat shows that 9% of the characters are PD. Given that there are 67.1M characters created .. 9% is roughly 6M. Given that you can have only 10 characters at most .. there are at least 600k players who have tried PD.

    The number is probably closer to 1.2M since i doubt most will have 2 for each class.

    Plus, D3 is certainly NOT a niche game and it has a PD option. Personally i don't play PD and never will, but D3 proves that a PD option in a AAA game can work.

    as an option not as a main point of the game. That I would agree to. Heck most people don't even want to play non-consensual pvp, lose a character on one death? As a main feature of the game? Nope - don't see that happening. As a server in the game that you can choose to play on - sure I could see that but not as a main feature.

    There is no disagreement here. I don't think a PD only game, with pvp (or even without) can be anything but niche.

    The best thing the PD crowd can hope for, if they want a AAA game, is a PD option.

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