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After SWG and Vanguard, How Do People Continue to Fall For SOE (Smedley) Hype?

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  • RoinRoin Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Not so many years ago SOE, at John Smedley's direction, gutted and ruined SWG, basically causing a legendary mass exodus from the game.  

    A few years later, SOE aquires Sigil games and forces the premature release of Vanguard, which was regarded by many to be one of the worst launches of any major MMO. 

    At the time of Vanguard's release (arguably the first iteration of EQN), Smedley promised long term support and upcoming expansion packs.  We all know how that went.

     

    So how is it that everyone is suddenly so confident that EQN will be such a great game?   Do the words "Everquest" and "sandbox" mentioned in the same sentence suddenly activate a chemical in the brain that causes selective amnesia?

     

     

    I agree with others in this thread.  You clearly have no working knowledge of SOE, VG or SWG.

    It's only thanks to SOE and Smedley's work that Vanguard is even still around.  Vanguard was a great game.  It was too great.  The original dev team (Sigil, headed by Brad McQuaid, the original EQ designer) wanted to create a really huge world and fill it with tons of new concepts, many of which were extremely complex (like the crafting system).

    As a result they ran out of time/funding about 6 months too early and was forced to ship the game in a condition that was no where near complete (in both features and bug control).  It quickly tanked in subs and SOE came in to salvage it the best they could but the damage had already been done.

    SOE has a great history.  Games like Planetside, Planetside 2 and EQ are amazing.  EQ2 was better than WoW but due to WoW's much lower system requirements garnered a lot more fans.  SWG was an amazing game and one many of us really miss.  Sure SOE hasn't been PERFECT (NGE, cough*) but no company has a perfect record in this respect.

    SOE delivers quality products, and this time they're taking their original product, EQ, which is one of the most fondly remembered MMORPGs ever, and making a huge next gen sandbox with it.

    Only a blind fanboy wouldn't be hyped for that.  Or someone who just really loves themeparks.  

    Also, someone mentioned that "6 more months would not have mattered for Vanguard" and I disagree. The reason it took more than 6 months after release to get fixed up was because the staff was gutted quickly after launch and had to deal with damage control on top of fixing things.  If they had 6 more months it would have been drastically better.

    Doesn't fanboy pretty much describe your whole post? If games you like playing or anyone likes playing is a measure of a companies history. Then wouldn't that make EA leaps and bounds better? If EQ2 was truly better then WoW, do you really think system requirements would stop people from playing it.

    Anyone that thinks SOE kept Vanguard open for the players or out of the kindness of their heart. Quite frankly are delusional.

    In War - Victory.
    In Peace - Vigilance.
    In Death - Sacrifice.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon

    soe saved vanguard from being the shortest lived mmo in history, its hilarious how people want to act like they developed vanguard, they simply didn't and that failure is 100% on sigil and brad mcquaid (who works for soe now)

    other than that you can whine about soe all day, it gives you somersetting to complain about until any real information comes out, right?

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by DocBrody

    they destroyed the Jedi accomplishment in SWG

     

    they destroyed the profession variety in SWG

     

    resulting in an even worse SW MMO coming out SWTOR, and shutdown of SWG

     

    never forgive never forget

    LA did.  Even if it was SOE, not every company is perfect.  You have to look at their accomplishments vs their mishaps to be objective.

    SOE created EQ, planetside and Planetside 2, all great games.  EQ practically invented (or at least popularized) the entire MMO genre.  EQ is one of the most fondly remember games and is still live today with like 19 expansions.

    Contrast that to what they "messed up".  LA messed up SWG, while SOE had little/no control over it.

    And what else?

    They salvaged the disaster that was Vanguard at launch and it's still live today getting updates.

    Stepping back and looking at what SOE has done, vs what they have messed up, they are top notch compared to most companies.

    Just saying.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    Finally someone says it. I didn't wanna be the guy, but man O man I've been thinking that exact same thing!

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Not so many years ago SOE, at John Smedley's direction, gutted and ruined SWG, basically causing a legendary mass exodus from the game.  

    A few years later, SOE aquires Sigil games and forces the premature release of Vanguard, which was regarded by many to be one of the worst launches of any major MMO. 

    At the time of Vanguard's release (arguably the first iteration of EQN), Smedley promised long term support and upcoming expansion packs.  We all know how that went.

     

    So how is it that everyone is suddenly so confident that EQN will be such a great game?   Do the words "Everquest" and "sandbox" mentioned in the same sentence suddenly activate a chemical in the brain that causes selective amnesia?

     

     

    I have found that often there are people who jump to conclusions without all the facts. Some believe industry press, some believe industry conspiracy gossip. 

    I don't see much difference in the validity of your assumptions any more than those who buy into hype.

  • DejoblueDejoblue Youngstown, OHPosts: 296Member Uncommon

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html?_r=0

     

    Credit to Halasradar on EQ forums:

     

    About Betrayal... and SWG

    Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts, responded to the changes in the game and the angry objections by disgruntled players. I quote her remarks from the article at length, since, um, you have to see them to believe them.

    Ms. MacIntyre: "We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base ... There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an option to be part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."


    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1215/p25s01-algn.html


     

  • William12William12 Saint paul, MNPosts: 680Member

    All you people blaming SOE for the NGE link proof.  This is the internet I am sure you can find it if it exist find proof SOE was the ones who pushed for the NGE.

    Otherwise just go away your assumptions are biased and blind.  Hate just to hate.

  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Darklighter1
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Darklighter1
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    Good Lord....people are ACTUALLY defending Smedley.  Just another example of how trolls are stupid....and how trolls have taken over this site.  And when EQ:N fails, who's fault will it be? 

     

    George Bush's????

    It's easy to defend someone based on facts.

    Also, was that an attempt to defend George Bush?  The worst president in history?  Give me a break.

    Nope...just pointing out that it doesn't matter how many of you people all say the same thing, it doesn't make you correct.  It just makes you a Mob of Misinformed Misfits.  And the George Bush part was to give you someone to blame all your troubles on.....don't worry he's used to it by now.

    Ok fine everyone is mis informed. Let us say you are right. So where is your source of information to put all misinformed misfits in their place?

    Got something?

    Exactly.  They're all talk.  Children often think throwing around insults is what wins an argument.  Unfortunately for them, most EQ veterans are adults and understand that facts and evidence win the day.  Not chest pounding and name calling.

    So, in your last 2 threads, you have called me a child and OBVIOUSLY I'm a churchgoer!  Only religious people are this stupid.....right?  You're throwing the insults, pal.

     

    And I've played EQ1, EQ2, DAoC, WoW, SWG, CoX.......and other MMOs I can't remember at the moment.....and NEVER did I see ANY MMO take a hug dump on it's playerbase like $OE did when it snuck the NGE into SWG.  If you think $OE had NOTHING to do with that, you're delusional.  Seriously, seek help.

    As already pointed out by others on this thread, and myself, LA headed up the NGE changes.  Also, as I already mentioned, even if* they had, it's one mistake.  Damning an entire company on 1 or 2 little mistakes, when they have given us multiple amazing titles and continued support for them for years on end is silly at best.

    Sorry but you are drowning in misinformation and blind hate. Emphasis on blind.

    Clearly you didn't play SWG when the NGE hit.  There was nothing "little" about what they did.  2 years of in game progression destroyed overnight.  Some things are unforgivable.  But please, keep telling me how great $OE is and how it's ME that is blind.

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,057Member Uncommon
    [mod edit]

     

    No Smed , no EQN

    Pardon me , but i dont see any other MMO company standing in line for AAA sandbox MMO

    image

  • William12William12 Saint paul, MNPosts: 680Member
    [mod edit]
  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Not so many years ago SOE, at John Smedley's direction, gutted and ruined SWG, basically causing a legendary mass exodus from the game.  

    A few years later, SOE aquires Sigil games and forces the premature release of Vanguard, which was regarded by many to be one of the worst launches of any major MMO. 

    At the time of Vanguard's release (arguably the first iteration of EQN), Smedley promised long term support and upcoming expansion packs.  We all know how that went.

     

    So how is it that everyone is suddenly so confident that EQN will be such a great game?   Do the words "Everquest" and "sandbox" mentioned in the same sentence suddenly activate a chemical in the brain that causes selective amnesia?

     

     

    SWG was more of a LA thing than SOE.. I would have thought greedy george seen how good WOW was doing and wanted some of the pie..

    SOE aquired vanguard in a bad state it was not their fault.

     

    Sure SOE was to blame as well for both of those things but after following the Development and release of Planetside 2 I know SOE can deliver a good game so they have regained some of my trust.

     

    I am looking forward to seeing more info about EQN.. i dont get crazy hyped up about any MMORPG, well infact any type of game for that matter.. but still i want to see what they can do.

     

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Not so many years ago SOE, at John Smedley's direction, gutted and ruined SWG, basically causing a legendary mass exodus from the game.  

    A few years later, SOE aquires Sigil games and forces the premature release of Vanguard, which was regarded by many to be one of the worst launches of any major MMO. 

    At the time of Vanguard's release (arguably the first iteration of EQN), Smedley promised long term support and upcoming expansion packs.  We all know how that went.

     

    So how is it that everyone is suddenly so confident that EQN will be such a great game?   Do the words "Everquest" and "sandbox" mentioned in the same sentence suddenly activate a chemical in the brain that causes selective amnesia?

     

     

    I have found that often there are people who jump to conclusions without all the facts. Some believe industry press, some believe industry conspiracy gossip. 

    I don't see much difference in the validity of your assumptions any more than those who buy into hype.

    Well the "hype" at this point is more like "hope", because we haven't actually seen anything yet to be "hyped" about.  But you have to look at it contrasted to the state of things.

    EQN will apparently be sandbox in some way and the game world will be huge (Stated by Smedley, and these are things I'm sure he can say for a fact) so this is more than likely true, and it already gives us a lot of hope.  Look at the state of sandbox games right now.  What do we have?  Mortal Online tanked hard.  EvE is good, but it's sci-fi and a bit old.  Darkfall was a disaster.

    What do we have besides that?  Not much, if anything.

    Then, it's an EQ game.  Lots of us remember EQ fondly and would love to see a next gen version in some form.

    In any case, until we actually see some gameplay, I don't think it's fair to label EQN fans as buying into hype.  We're simply tired of themepark, anti-social, single player Online RPGs parading around as "MMORPGs" and we're hoping EQN can be something truly worth playing.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • GrootGroot OKC, OKPosts: 87Member

    I am excited to see what EQ:N will bring to the genre, but I still remember it's Smedley and SOE.  

     

    Seeing all this defense of SOE on an MMORPG forum is crazy to me haha.  They were the DEVIL.

  • wizyywizyy Novi SadPosts: 629Member

    The "hype" EQ Next is getting is in my eyes MOSTLY created by MMORPG.com and Tentonhammer.com.

    They were the ones that awarded EQN the "Best of Show" for this year E3.

    I refuse to be excited by nothing more than a few words :)

  • William12William12 Saint paul, MNPosts: 680Member

    Let's all agree SOE is not innocent here, but they're not the evil company people portray them to be.  EA, Blizzard are far worse company's.   

     

    SOE has a game engine they designed from the ground up for MMOs.  That is something unique because most MMOs are designed from single/multi player game engines like Cry, Unreal, Hero engines.    SOE has proven this engine is powerful and can produce amazing quality without needing a top of the line gaming PC.

     

    With this engine I believe SOE is capable of producing a high quality MMORPG.   The facts are we will all know in a month if SOE can do this.

  • IadienIadien Charleston, WVPosts: 638Member
    I doubt very much that anyone defending Smed in here believe he and SoE are without fault, I know I certainly believe SoE has fucked up plenty of times. I'm optimistic about EQN, but I won't be blind and ignore its faults. I'm an extremely jaded MMO player at this point, because of how many terrible MMOs have been launched over the last 8ish years. =p
  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    Clearly you didn't play SWG when the NGE hit.  There was nothing "little" about what they did.  2 years of in game progression destroyed overnight.  Some things are unforgivable.  But please, keep telling me how great $OE is and how it's ME that is blind.

    Yup, and those changes were directed by LA.  Multiple people here have linked proof.  Sorry to say it, but you are just wrong.

    I enjoyed SWG at launch and played up until NGE.  I didn't enjoy the changes, but I at least did the research to find out where to direct my distrust.  At LA.  Not SOE.

    And even if they had.  1 mistake, 1 game.  SOE has done a lot of great things.  EQ is probably one of the single greatest achievements a developer could ever hope to achieve, and SOE did that, with a lot of the credit going to John Smedley.

    You are blind.  Just another hater.

    But hey, you're free to not play EQN.  I'm sure there are tons of great AAA Sandbox MMORPGs out there for you to play.  Tons of em.  Go for it.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Iadien
    I doubt very much that anyone defending Smed in here believe he and SoE are without fault, I know I certainly believe SoE has fucked up plenty of times. I'm optimistic about EQN, but I won't be blind and ignore its faults. I'm an extremely jaded MMO player at this point, because of how many terrible MMOs have been launched over the last 8ish years. =p

    I agree with you, except for "Fucked up plenty of times".  Looking at their history, it looks to me like they have only had a few mishaps over the past 14 or so years.

    No one is saying John Smedley, or anyone at SOE is a perfect being that is incapable of error.  But I wouldn't blame VG or SWG on SOE or him, nor would I categorize SOE as having made a lot* of mistakes.

    I mean, take a strong look at the hate machine.  There are people who think "SOE has made a lot of mistakes", but when you ask them what mistake they disliked the most, they normally mention NGE from SWG, which as others on this thread have already pointed out, with linked proof, that LA, not SOE, was behind that change.

    So most of the hate SOE gets is from something they didn't really have a hand.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member

    For all of the people claiming that Lucas Arts was behind the NGE, I have posted a link from an SOE developer who kept a blog regarding his time working on SWG.   This link directly refers to the NGE and not once does it mention LA being the driving force behind the NGE but does state that Ralph Koster and SOE marketing were often giving the direction.

    http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

    Some quotes:

    "We didn’t notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn’t made a decision. You basically found out when we found out"

     

    "It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production,
    community. You name it.
    "

     

    "We made huge mistakes. We got too close to the changes. Design took something and made it bigger than it should’ve been."

     

     

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    For all of the people claiming that Lucas Arts was behind the NGE, I have posted a link from an SOE developer who kept a blog regarding his time working on SWG.   This link directly refers to the NGE and not once does it mention LA being the driving force behind the NGE but does state that Ralph Koster and SOE marketing were often giving the direction.

    http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

    Some quotes:

    "We didn’t notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn’t made a decision. You basically found out when we found out"

     

    "It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production,
    community. You name it.
    "

     

    "We made huge mistakes. We got too close to the changes. Design took something and made it bigger than it should’ve been."

     

     

    So what about this post then?

     

    Originally posted by dejoblue

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html?_r=0

     

    Credit to Halasradar on EQ forums:

     

    About Betrayal... and SWG

    Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts, responded to the changes in the game and the angry objections by disgruntled players. I quote her remarks from the article at length, since, um, you have to see them to believe them.

    Ms. MacIntyre: "We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base ... There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an option to be part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."


    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1215/p25s01-algn.html

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,754Member Uncommon
    and dont forget Free Realms...That was supposed to be the greatest game since WoW.
  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    For all of the people claiming that Lucas Arts was behind the NGE, I have posted a link from an SOE developer who kept a blog regarding his time working on SWG.   This link directly refers to the NGE and not once does it mention LA being the driving force behind the NGE but does state that Ralph Koster and SOE marketing were often giving the direction.

    http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

    Some quotes:

    "We didn’t notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn’t made a decision. You basically found out when we found out"

     

    "It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production,
    community. You name it.
    "

     

    "We made huge mistakes. We got too close to the changes. Design took something and made it bigger than it should’ve been."

     

     

    That doesn't list anyone as the director of the changes.  LA was pushing the changes.

    Also taken from that same article.

    If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000
    subs a month.
    Note – I think our subs were closer to 160-180 than 200k. It was a bad financial situation no matter how you look at it.

    It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn’t.

    That was before NGE.

    I don't see why you would post something that only strengthens what everyone else has been saying.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    The OP's first post is full of inaccuracies, and to be honest SOE did a bang up job with SWG after LA "gutted" SWG, coming out with some great features and content. Content and features you don't see in modern games. SOW is putting lots of efforts into VG as well. I do believe Smed will get it right on this one, before his games were dictated to him by others, now this is his baby and his creation, I honestly would like to see what he can do.

     

    And to be honest, SOE is a better company than many others out there.

  • CordenCorden Greenville, SCPosts: 65Member

    First of all, I want to say that I'm rather neutral in my opinion of this. While SOE has been involved in some mediocre efforts and was involved in the destruction of  my first and probably favorite MMO (Not saying they were directly responsible, but they were the obviously involved), I also like  to judge a company on their recent merits and not their past endeavors. After all, the SWG debacle was eight years ago. It's time to move on. DCUO has been a fair MMO, Planetside 2 was good shooter, and they seem to be listening to their player base more in recent times. While none of those titles held my interest for long, it makes me cautiously optimistic.

     

    THAT SAID, I have to ask, what happened? What is with the blatant SOE worship? I never thought I'd see the day that SOE would receive this type of adoration. I can understand letting go of the past and saying SOE has been putting more effort into their products in recent years, or even saying that not all of the negative changes that took place were their fault. But this seems to be going much farther than that. People are behaving like they're the savior of the industry.

     

    SWG was my first MMO, and quite frankly, even after all of the speculation, apology letters, and finger pointing I've seen over the years, I still have no exact idea who was to blame. But here is what is confusing me: the attitude of these forums seem inconsistent, or I must have seriously missed something. People are acting like the SOE hate never existed and that anyone that thinks SOE is at fault is an insane minority. Was something released in my absence that completely absolves SOE and Smedley from guilt of the SWG debacle? Was it the somewhat rude and haughty tone of the OP? Do people just like to argue? Is it because this thread was posted in the EQ: Next section?

     

    Again, it just seems like this is inconsistent. I remember, not long ago, if you even brought up playing an SOE game you were flamed and labeled as some sort of traitor. If you defended SOE, most people would start a furious argument with you. Is it EQ:Next that has changed peoples tones? 

     

    I have to wonder, if the OP had made a thread praising SOE and Smedley and made derogatory remarks towards those who don't like SOE, if this entire thread would be people bashing the OP for defending SOE. Maybe I'm answering my own question though. Forums are to argue, and these type of threads attract the 'Fanbois' and the other type attract the haters.

    image
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Corden

     

    THAT SAID, I have to ask, what happened? What is with the blatant SOE worship? I never thought I'd see the day that SOE would receive this type of adoration. I can understand letting go of the past and saying SOE has been putting more effort into their products in recent years, or even saying that not all of the negative changes that took place were their fault. But this seems to be going much farther than that. People are behaving like they're the savior of the industry.

     

     

    Another person jumping to conclusions without reading the topic.

    No one is defending SOE. People are defending factual information. And even posted the links for  the factual information many times now to prove OP wrong.

    SOE has screwed up many times but when it comes to Vanguard and SWG..it isn't fair to blame them even though it was LA and Sigil/Microsoft who screwed up.

    I haven't seen any SOE worship here but people trying to correct OP.

     

     

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

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