Originally posted by Grailer hopefully they have macros . Rift is pretty good like that
I hope not, atleast not like Rift was, when I had two buttons, 1 for ranged, 1 for close attacks. 2 buttons and I did all my attacks on my inquisitor build, got pretty boring. I didn't have to do it, but it was the most efficient, so couldn't get myself to not do it, for the sake of maximium dps. So I would rather not have it like that personally.
Originally posted by Grailer hopefully they have macros . Rift is pretty good like that
I hope not, atleast not like Rift was, when I had two buttons, 1 for ranged, 1 for close attacks. 2 buttons and I did all my attacks on my inquisitor build, got pretty boring. I didn't have to do it, but it was the most efficient, so couldn't get myself to not do it, for the sake of maximium dps. So I would rather not have it like that personally.
They have actually changed this, since going back on F2P, I can still get 80% of my skills off in a macro, but the other 20% are situational / responsive now.
But I agree, games should be designed without macros. If you have so many skills that it just becomes a damage priority chain, its not good design.
Originally posted by Vorthanion Action combat gives me headaches and carpal tunnel syndrome. I will always opt for slower paced combat for those reasons as well as my preference for the importance of character stats over twitch and my preference to play my avatar, not my reflexes.
I feel the same can be said with Tab-target combat - as managing 20-30 skills filling up your UI and just managing cooldowns and rotations can cause me headaches.
I prefer to rely on my skill rather than random numbers and dice rolls.
Except you would still have all of that with an action based game,unless you want to remove all the skills and abilities and just end up with a manual aim and nothing else to think about.
I can use the FFXI ranger for example or even Thief.You have first of all two choices of weapon,xbow or Bow,then you have the two types of ammo bolts of arrows,oh sorry i forgot Ranger can also use a Gun lol so you also have bullets.
Then in each ammo category you different types ,example in Bolts you have to macro def down bolts, sleep bolts,hp drain bolts,poison bolts,attack down bolts ect ect..That adds to the over all versatility in game play,rather than many games that you don't even load ammo.You cannot lose that kind of depth in gaming,if anything we need more depth in gaming.
Then as a mage,you know right away you are going to have many spells and even abilities,how could you possibly manage that and aim and move?
You cannot properly mimmick real life aiming in a video game,it can ONLY be done by adding more manual controls,lose important aspects of gaming or via auto tab/target.Adding more manual controls when you only have two hands is imo a very bad decision,it means you have to make a choice between aiming or using abilities/spells,what kind of choice is that,i have abilities and spells,of course i want to use them.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
How about tab targetting with reactionals... Not only block or dodges but also dispels spellblocks interupts and a whole lot of crowd controll and anti crowd controll
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Grailer hopefully they have macros . Rift is pretty good like that
I hope not, atleast not like Rift was, when I had two buttons, 1 for ranged, 1 for close attacks. 2 buttons and I did all my attacks on my inquisitor build, got pretty boring. I didn't have to do it, but it was the most efficient, so couldn't get myself to not do it, for the sake of maximium dps. So I would rather not have it like that personally.
They have actually changed this, since going back on F2P, I can still get 80% of my skills off in a macro, but the other 20% are situational / responsive now.
But I agree, games should be designed without macros. If you have so many skills that it just becomes a damage priority chain, its not good design.
+1
Agreed
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus How about tab targetting with reactionals... Not only block or dodges but also dispels spellblocks interupts and a whole lot of crowd controll and anti crowd controll
I would be ok with this personally if:
I didn't need a target to swing my weapon.
The game used some sort of dodge/blocking mechanic through player input and not hidden die rolls.
The combat itself was rather fast paced and mobility intensive. The stand still trade blows of the traditional tab target is something I could never do again sadly, no matter how good the rest of the game is.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I can see FPS view for firing arrows and spells also as optional.
Could easily see WOW taking a BIG hit when EQ:N comes out: This seems like it really is another generation above the old, tired tab-target, hot-key P2P mmorpgs.
Edit - Also if there is a hotbar of any kind, I actually prefer the Guild Wars 1 style. Where your hot bar had a set amount of skills and you had to actually pick which skills you wanted to use in combat. This allows for people within the same class to play quite differently and makes each skill more important. You don't get a lot of over-lapping +dmg and redudant skills that usually fill up hotbars in most mmo's.
This only worked in GW1 though because there was such a great variety of skills to choose from.
From my experience with, say, Neverwinter, sometimes you get limited bars and not really that much to put on it anyway.
The limited bar approach would be fine for me IF like in GW1 there were a great variety of things you could put in the slots. If there is hardly anything to put in the slots, the limited bar just sucks.
It also only worked in GW1 because the entire game was focused on respecing constantly. "Oh, I'm going to visit some Ice Elementals. Guess I'll take some caster hate. Oh, I'm going to PvP instead? Just wait a sec, I'll open my build manager and choose one the ten PvP builds I have." One of the PvP modes even revolved around making builds out of random skill packs.
GW1 had the best character development I've seen in an MMO, but I highly doubt any dev will have the guts to reproduce it. Even the ones that (kind of) tried - Funcom with TSW and ANet with GW2 - watered the system down noticeably or screwed it up in one way or another.
It doesn't need to be to the extreme of GW1. Especially when you allow long duration non-group buffs, summons, illusions, and other non-combat abilities. GW1's hot bar was closer to EQ1's gem bar than any modern MMO out so far. It just took it and turned it into a CCG.
First-person action combat a la Chivalry/Mortal Online/Skyrim. 3rd person should be an option but only when your weapons are sheathed so one can mitigate getting jumped by corner-lookers.
It can have a hotbar used for quickslotting items and abilities, sure but A. it shouldn't have certain slots for certain things (no consumable exclusive or ultimate exclusive slot) and B. it should only to be for equipping those items or abilities, you should still have to use them with your mouse buttons (ie: nothing should insta-fire from your hotbar).
I enjoy the idea that GW2 had of giving melee the ability to do ranged damage, however, I think that some of the weapon skills were out of balance. You can fix this by giving baseline abilities to classes and have the weapon effect abilities instead of giving a new set of skills.
No games (that I have played) other than Age of Conan had execution style animations, and I don't understand why?! They are extremely fun and I would love to see some sort of execution animations in the combat.
Would rather have a limited action bar, 6-8 abilities, but a vast pool of abilities to choose from.
Don't really care about the targeting system, there is not much variety anyways.
First-person action combat a la Chivalry/Mortal Online/Skyrim. 3rd person should be an option but only when your weapons are sheathed so one can mitigate getting jumped by corner-lookers.
It can have a hotbar used for quickslotting items and abilities, sure but A. it shouldn't have certain slots for certain things (no consumable exclusive or ultimate exclusive slot) and B. it should only to be for equipping those items or abilities, you should still have to use them with your mouse buttons (ie: nothing should insta-fire from your hotbar).
Just the other way around, first person view out of combat for immersion reasons, and a good behond the sholders camera for mellee combat because i want to see my awesome annimations in my awesome gear.
Traveling in first persion view with an option to zoom out to 3rd person view and turn camera around but requiring player actio because the 3rd person view will slowly mve back to behind the shoulder view and back to first person
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Tab targeting with EQ 1 style action box, the old one. I miss the effective use of macros. EQ2' s system was far to awful, it was a trainwreck inside of a nightmare. Action combat is good for the games that it is built for, but this is Everquest, stick to what made it work.
Action combat belongs in console games not in mmos. I am happy to see that the WOW/Eq combat style is winning the poll at the moment by a big margin.
What I cannot understand is the people that complain about being bored with lots of skills and hotbars and then laud action combat. Action combat is simply builder, builder, builder, finisher, then repeat. Or more accurately builder, dodge, builder, dodge, builder, dodge, finisher, then repeat. I press 4-5 keys at most in every battle in action combat versus twice that number in non-action combat games.
The one and only thing that could get me to not play this game is the combat (and maybe the inclusion of corpse runs...). I can't believe some people are still stuck in the past, and enjoy tab-targeting. Having 8 hotbars doesn't eqate to skill or strategy. The person who keybinds best, and has the mouse with the most buttons will always win. There's nothing gimmicky about FPS/twitch mechanics, the problem is that so many titles try to implement a good "action combat" system and fail because of past limitations, and the delusion that strategy and skill are mutually exclusive. If executed correctly, complex aggro, CC, skill-chaining, and positional systems can coexist with targeting reticles. I'm starting to believe that you're all just so horrible at skill-based games, that you're afraid you'll no longer be competitive if skill enters the equation.
This debate's occurred millions of times before. If the devs are going to read this thread, I'm sure it won't be the first time they contemplate these ideas. The one thing that's been consistent through the years is that there's really only one good reason to opt for a keyboard based combat system, and that's latency. I think we've reached the point where that's no longer a factor.
The one and only thing that could get me to not play this game is the combat (and maybe the inclusion of corpse runs...). I can't believe some people are still stuck in the past, and enjoy tab-targeting.
Not just some over one third by this poll and the real number is likely to be higher.
Having 8 hotbars doesn't eqate to skill or strategy. The person who keybinds best, and has the mouse with the most buttons will always win. There's nothing gimmicky about FPS/twitch mechanics, the problem is that so many titles try to implement a good "action combat" system and fail because of past limitations, and the delusion that strategy and skill are mutually exclusive. If executed correctly, complex aggro, CC, skill-chaining, and positional systems can coexist with targeting reticles. I'm starting to believe that you're all just so horrible at skill-based games, that you're afraid you'll no longer be competitive if skill enters the equation.
While I am happy to grant you that "8 hotbars doesn't eqate to skill or strategy" I refuse to accept that "action combat" actually demonstrates anything but better reflexes and lower lag times.
This debate's occurred millions of times before. If the devs are going to read this thread, I'm sure it won't be the first time they contemplate these ideas. The one thing that's been consistent through the years is that there's really only one good reason to opt for a keyboard based combat system, and that's latency. I think we've reached the point where that's no longer a factor.
Only if you live in North America, my lag time (for example) is over 300ms this is typical for anyone playing from Oceania.
In any case I prefer stats based tab targeting systems because it means that my Iksar Ranger plays differently to my Wood Elf Ranger. In a Role Playing game I still prefer the character and not the player to be the important thing.
This is really the wrong place to ask this sort of question, I really hope the devs don't mistake this poll for general gamer consensus. Unfortunately, the majority of people on this forum are stuck in the past and prefer the old traditional auto-attack based system - and this obviously shows in the polls. It's time to take the nostalgia goggles off people.
The fact is, A LOT of people don't play mmo's because they just find them to be plain boring, and combat is a HUGE factor. Most of my friends comment on how boring and unintuitive mmo combat is when they see me playing. There is nothing intuitive about auto-attacks, random dice rolls, and hand-holding tab targeting. Playing Simon Says with 30+ skills and 8 hotbars is NOT my idea of a natural feeling combat system.
Action combat isn't only about "twitching" and "reflexes". You have to adapt to every situation by taking full control of your character, aiming attacks, dodging, mobility, attacking when needed. Sitting and watching your character whack away in auto-attack is not fun, people want full control of their character. And there is nothing more disappointing then having every single long-ranged attack home in on your character without any chance of dodge - this needs to be changed asap.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus How about tab targetting with reactionals... Not only block or dodges but also dispels spellblocks interupts and a whole lot of crowd controll and anti crowd controll
I would be ok with this personally if:
I didn't need a target to swing my weapon.
The game used some sort of dodge/blocking mechanic through player input and not hidden die rolls.
The combat itself was rather fast paced and mobility intensive. The stand still trade blows of the traditional tab target is something I could never do again sadly, no matter how good the rest of the game is.
The game used some sort of dodge/blocking mechanic through player input and not hidden die rolls.
The combat itself was rather fast paced and mobility intensive. The stand still trade blows of the traditional tab target is something I could never do again sadly, no matter how good the rest of the game is.
100% agree with this
I would 100% disagree. That is the nature of the discussion a spectrum of opinion with lots of folks at the extremes.
Tab Target please.
Character based not player based dodging (placement and discipline not dancing).
Static combat the way it happened in Dark Ages Europe not disco dancing as in a Chinese martial arts movie.
In what way is having 50 abilities to choose from, alternate, rotate, etc not skill or strategy... whereas left clicking and right clicking is? Action combat in MMOs sucks, and always will... not to mention the majority of games in the past several years have been action based, and have failed... so action is same-old same-old.
Gear stats, abilities and tactical decision making should be important in a MMO. EQ2 may have gone overboard with the number of hotbars required, but it is definitely the most skill intensive MMO on the market, when it comes to heroic group/raid stuff. All tab-targeting games require moving in combat, positioning, ability stacking, etc... they just don't have Diablo's (a 17 year old game, btw) simplistic attack system.
The game used some sort of dodge/blocking mechanic through player input and not hidden die rolls.
The combat itself was rather fast paced and mobility intensive. The stand still trade blows of the traditional tab target is something I could never do again sadly, no matter how good the rest of the game is.
100% agree with this
I would 100% disagree. That is the nature of the discussion a spectrum of opinion with lots of folks at the extremes.
Tab Target please.
Character based not player based dodging (placement and discipline not dancing).
Static combat the way it happened in Dark Ages Europe not disco dancing as in a Chinese martial arts movie.
>Placement
Since when is placement an issue in target-based combat? The only mobility required in this design is "stay out of red circle/fire" mechanics.
>Static combat
That statement in itself is oxymoron
Real life combat isn't static nor stationary, so why should it be in video games? Last I checked video games are supposed to be exciting and not stagnant. Heavy armor types wouldn't be nearly as mobile as light armor types, not every character would resemble a martial artist.
i voted for GW2 combat because to me it has the most pros and less cons. Its not tab target, its not action, it doesnt lock you with animations and still you can dodge attacks in real time. Its that good and i love it.
If SOE takes that same idea and make it even better, they have my blessing.
I love the amazing C9 Assa/Shadow style of combat. Such a deep system of combinations and reaction skill is a dream for a open world/pvp userskill based combat. On the same time it is easy to learn for casuals and hard to master for hardcore gamers. But that would be a dream.. From what they deliverd till now in other games, we maybe will get a combination of "old school" fighting system with some "avoid this and that" stuff.. Very interested to see what EQN is going to deliver.
Comments
I hope not, atleast not like Rift was, when I had two buttons, 1 for ranged, 1 for close attacks. 2 buttons and I did all my attacks on my inquisitor build, got pretty boring. I didn't have to do it, but it was the most efficient, so couldn't get myself to not do it, for the sake of maximium dps. So I would rather not have it like that personally.
They have actually changed this, since going back on F2P, I can still get 80% of my skills off in a macro, but the other 20% are situational / responsive now.
But I agree, games should be designed without macros. If you have so many skills that it just becomes a damage priority chain, its not good design.
Except you would still have all of that with an action based game,unless you want to remove all the skills and abilities and just end up with a manual aim and nothing else to think about.
I can use the FFXI ranger for example or even Thief.You have first of all two choices of weapon,xbow or Bow,then you have the two types of ammo bolts of arrows,oh sorry i forgot Ranger can also use a Gun lol so you also have bullets.
Then in each ammo category you different types ,example in Bolts you have to macro def down bolts, sleep bolts,hp drain bolts,poison bolts,attack down bolts ect ect..That adds to the over all versatility in game play,rather than many games that you don't even load ammo.You cannot lose that kind of depth in gaming,if anything we need more depth in gaming.
Then as a mage,you know right away you are going to have many spells and even abilities,how could you possibly manage that and aim and move?
You cannot properly mimmick real life aiming in a video game,it can ONLY be done by adding more manual controls,lose important aspects of gaming or via auto tab/target.Adding more manual controls when you only have two hands is imo a very bad decision,it means you have to make a choice between aiming or using abilities/spells,what kind of choice is that,i have abilities and spells,of course i want to use them.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
+1
Agreed
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I would be ok with this personally if:
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I can see FPS view for firing arrows and spells also as optional.
Could easily see WOW taking a BIG hit when EQ:N comes out: This seems like it really is another generation above the old, tired tab-target, hot-key P2P mmorpgs.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It doesn't need to be to the extreme of GW1. Especially when you allow long duration non-group buffs, summons, illusions, and other non-combat abilities. GW1's hot bar was closer to EQ1's gem bar than any modern MMO out so far. It just took it and turned it into a CCG.
First-person action combat a la Chivalry/Mortal Online/Skyrim. 3rd person should be an option but only when your weapons are sheathed so one can mitigate getting jumped by corner-lookers.
It can have a hotbar used for quickslotting items and abilities, sure but A. it shouldn't have certain slots for certain things (no consumable exclusive or ultimate exclusive slot) and B. it should only to be for equipping those items or abilities, you should still have to use them with your mouse buttons (ie: nothing should insta-fire from your hotbar).
Just want a diverse action style combat system.
I enjoy the idea that GW2 had of giving melee the ability to do ranged damage, however, I think that some of the weapon skills were out of balance. You can fix this by giving baseline abilities to classes and have the weapon effect abilities instead of giving a new set of skills.
No games (that I have played) other than Age of Conan had execution style animations, and I don't understand why?! They are extremely fun and I would love to see some sort of execution animations in the combat.
Would rather have a limited action bar, 6-8 abilities, but a vast pool of abilities to choose from.
Don't really care about the targeting system, there is not much variety anyways.
Looking forward to reveal!
Just the other way around, first person view out of combat for immersion reasons, and a good behond the sholders camera for mellee combat because i want to see my awesome annimations in my awesome gear.
Traveling in first persion view with an option to zoom out to 3rd person view and turn camera around but requiring player actio because the 3rd person view will slowly mve back to behind the shoulder view and back to first person
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Action combat belongs in console games not in mmos. I am happy to see that the WOW/Eq combat style is winning the poll at the moment by a big margin.
What I cannot understand is the people that complain about being bored with lots of skills and hotbars and then laud action combat. Action combat is simply builder, builder, builder, finisher, then repeat. Or more accurately builder, dodge, builder, dodge, builder, dodge, finisher, then repeat. I press 4-5 keys at most in every battle in action combat versus twice that number in non-action combat games.
The one and only thing that could get me to not play this game is the combat (and maybe the inclusion of corpse runs...). I can't believe some people are still stuck in the past, and enjoy tab-targeting. Having 8 hotbars doesn't eqate to skill or strategy. The person who keybinds best, and has the mouse with the most buttons will always win. There's nothing gimmicky about FPS/twitch mechanics, the problem is that so many titles try to implement a good "action combat" system and fail because of past limitations, and the delusion that strategy and skill are mutually exclusive. If executed correctly, complex aggro, CC, skill-chaining, and positional systems can coexist with targeting reticles. I'm starting to believe that you're all just so horrible at skill-based games, that you're afraid you'll no longer be competitive if skill enters the equation.
This debate's occurred millions of times before. If the devs are going to read this thread, I'm sure it won't be the first time they contemplate these ideas. The one thing that's been consistent through the years is that there's really only one good reason to opt for a keyboard based combat system, and that's latency. I think we've reached the point where that's no longer a factor.
In any case I prefer stats based tab targeting systems because it means that my Iksar Ranger plays differently to my Wood Elf Ranger. In a Role Playing game I still prefer the character and not the player to be the important thing.
This is really the wrong place to ask this sort of question, I really hope the devs don't mistake this poll for general gamer consensus. Unfortunately, the majority of people on this forum are stuck in the past and prefer the old traditional auto-attack based system - and this obviously shows in the polls. It's time to take the nostalgia goggles off people.
The fact is, A LOT of people don't play mmo's because they just find them to be plain boring, and combat is a HUGE factor. Most of my friends comment on how boring and unintuitive mmo combat is when they see me playing. There is nothing intuitive about auto-attacks, random dice rolls, and hand-holding tab targeting. Playing Simon Says with 30+ skills and 8 hotbars is NOT my idea of a natural feeling combat system.
Action combat isn't only about "twitching" and "reflexes". You have to adapt to every situation by taking full control of your character, aiming attacks, dodging, mobility, attacking when needed. Sitting and watching your character whack away in auto-attack is not fun, people want full control of their character. And there is nothing more disappointing then having every single long-ranged attack home in on your character without any chance of dodge - this needs to be changed asap.
100% agree with this
I would 100% disagree. That is the nature of the discussion a spectrum of opinion with lots of folks at the extremes.
In what way is having 50 abilities to choose from, alternate, rotate, etc not skill or strategy... whereas left clicking and right clicking is? Action combat in MMOs sucks, and always will... not to mention the majority of games in the past several years have been action based, and have failed... so action is same-old same-old.
Gear stats, abilities and tactical decision making should be important in a MMO. EQ2 may have gone overboard with the number of hotbars required, but it is definitely the most skill intensive MMO on the market, when it comes to heroic group/raid stuff. All tab-targeting games require moving in combat, positioning, ability stacking, etc... they just don't have Diablo's (a 17 year old game, btw) simplistic attack system.
>Placement
Since when is placement an issue in target-based combat? The only mobility required in this design is "stay out of red circle/fire" mechanics.
>Static combat
That statement in itself is oxymoron
Real life combat isn't static nor stationary, so why should it be in video games? Last I checked video games are supposed to be exciting and not stagnant. Heavy armor types wouldn't be nearly as mobile as light armor types, not every character would resemble a martial artist.
i voted for GW2 combat because to me it has the most pros and less cons. Its not tab target, its not action, it doesnt lock you with animations and still you can dodge attacks in real time. Its that good and i love it.
If SOE takes that same idea and make it even better, they have my blessing.
I disagree.
Combat, for me, is one of the most important aspects of an MMO. Right behind animations and slightly ahead of endgame activities.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I loved WoW and SWTOR combat when both them games launched, sadly the combat in both games have been ruined since.
I just want that traditional style of combat, action combat in any MMO has sucked up to this point.