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Will F2P ruin this game?

2

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  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,081Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jonrd463
    As long as there's a sub option, they can make it F2P all they want as far as I'm concerned. EQ2 does it just fine, imo. All this talk of EQN got me itching for a little EQ2 action, so I'm resubbing gold for a month or two. It's only when there's no option to bypass the cash shop nonsense with a monthly sub that I get cranky about it.

    This is it plain and simple, i will pay a sub like i have with all MMO's. I've pay a sub to SOE since 1999, it ain't going to change now.

     

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  • Warking24x7Warking24x7 Houston, TXPosts: 9Member

    I think F2P is fine if it is very limited.

    Meaning access to the first 20 levels of a 80 level game.  Limited loot drops.. limited $$$ income, trade options...

     

    F2P is good for getting people a taste of the game before jumping in... Full F2P is always bad because this infests the game with Trolls, bots, farmers, etc that have nothing to loose.  They cheat they get deleted and they create a new character and do it again.  Site bans and ip bans do not work on anyone with 1/2 a brain these days.  It is way to easy to go through a proxy or change your IP.

     

     

  • steamtanksteamtank Rochester, NYPosts: 385Member
    Originally posted by Sarei

    I don`t know if anything is going to ruin EQN but the freemium is going to anger a lot of people, who don`t know about SOEs fremmium+subscription model. I`am a Eq player myself and i have played Eq2 from the beginning. I still play it here and there and i`am really disappointed with the freemium system. And i will name some of the problems that are associated with SOE-freemium:

    1) You have to get a sub to play the game, so SC is a bad addition ( to get more money ) to a subscription model. It was not intendet to be for the F2P dudes. With SC you cant buy enough Brokerslots ( with shinys you need hundres) to get your broker stuff in, you cant send messages etc.

    2) In Eq2 you can upgrade your spells/combat arts with Station Cash. Which is such a economy breaker. Master Spells/Ad3 are less worth than before!

    3) Flying Mounts can be obtained without the one week quest instantly with lvl 85. And guess what SOE is selling so much in the cash shop..

    4) Selfrez, heals, porter etc. damage the gameplay.

    5) Even your gear can be repaired with SC

    6) Lots of housing stuff and houses are just available in the SC market..

    *Station Cash = SOEs virtual currency

    So what do you think? Will SOE continue the give me your money and shut up strategie? Maybe i`am wrong, the time will show what SOE has got to offer.

    EQN could be the messiah of all MMO's ... if they do this to it, i wont play.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Being a crappy game ruins the game, payment model doesn't make or break a game.

    The payment model is usually the reason it's a crappy game in this case. EQ1 and 2 were great but when they switched to f2p, if you weren't subbed it was awful. If EQN starts out that way, the majority of people will not pay the sub because they don't have to, they wont enjoy it, and they'll leave. What makes MMOs great is the MASSIVELY part. If everyone's gone it's not nearly as fun imo

    Payment model has nothing to do with the quality of the game.

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  • Agnostic42Agnostic42 That place, Overthere, WAPosts: 375Member
    EQ's and EQ2's F2P models are designed to make you want to sub. I see no problem in that at all. The only times I ever even notice that they have a F2P model is when I'm not subbed. Consider their F2P model as a very LARGE and extended trial where you can actually play the entire game without paying a cent. But, if you want to improve your quality of life per se within the game, you will eventually need to sub, and when you do, all is fine.
  • I don't post a lot and will get flamed for it I'm sure but I have a questions and possibly a point to make  for the F2P vs P2P argument.

    To my knowledge every p2p game comes out with regular / semi regular expansions. Not just content updates and there is a difference.

    WOW, FF11 are the only ones that are still p2p and they are old but still come out with expansions. Their games are both huge in content and mass.

    EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

    If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

    BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

    There are a lot of f2p titles and anyone can argue their success but can anyone say that there is any f2p title that is or ever was as big as a p2p title. 

     

     

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Sarei

    I don`t know if anything is going to ruin EQN but the freemium is going to anger a lot of people, who don`t know about SOEs fremmium+subscription model. I`am a Eq player myself and i have played Eq2 from the beginning. I still play it here and there and i`am really disappointed with the freemium system. And i will name some of the problems that are associated with SOE-freemium:

    1) You have to get a sub to play the game, so SC is a bad addition ( to get more money ) to a subscription model. It was not intendet to be for the F2P dudes. With SC you cant buy enough Brokerslots ( with shinys you need hundres) to get your broker stuff in, you cant send messages etc.

    $5 will make you a permanent Silver member but I agree with you -- poor decision on SOE

    2) In Eq2 you can upgrade your spells/combat arts with Station Cash. Which is such a economy breaker. Master Spells/Ad3 are less worth than before!

    3) Flying Mounts can be obtained without the one week quest instantly with lvl 85. And guess what SOE is selling so much in the cash shop..

    if you are the Fae/Arasai race you can be flying at 85 with less than 1 hour of questing

    "no quest" Flying mounts can also be obtained w dungeon marks or collecters edition of the game (AOD/COE)

    4) Selfrez, heals, porter etc. damage the gameplay.

    5) Even your gear can be repaired with SC

    6) Lots of housing stuff and houses are just available in the SC market..

    while true,  SOE will soon be allowing players to sell their homes for cash too - thru Player Studio

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/380998/EQ2-info-on-players-selling-decorated-homes-on-the-marketplace.html

    expect to see much more Player Studio in EQNext

    *Station Cash = SOEs virtual currency

    So what do you think? Will SOE continue the give me your money and shut up strategie? Maybe i`am wrong, the time will show what SOE has got to offer.

    regardless what the SC store is -- SOE does plan to have players sell to each other w Player Studio

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Desias

    EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

    If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

    BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

    EQ2 had Chains of Eternity November 2012 -- a complete expansion

    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Eternity

    beyond annual expansions, EQ2 and other ftp games do quarterly content updates

     

    DDO did an expansion last year - and has another one due this summer

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/26/turbine-announces-shadowfell-conspiracy-expansion-for-ddo/

    I dont follow what LOTRO has been doing

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Being a crappy game ruins the game, payment model doesn't make or break a game.

     

    Tell that to gpotato and the game Allods.   There was so much buzz for that game until they added that death debuff and the recovery item to the cash shop. 

     

    The real question isn't will, but when will it kill this game.   Unless they build this cash shop game completely opposite of what they normally do it is only a matter of time.    I suspect the cash shop won't even be beta tested, and there will be zero information about the items until release.

     

    The Allods example was brutal.   That was a really cool game and I was unhappy I had to uninstall it.  Nonetheless as soon as I saw that "fear of death" or whatever it was change, I knew I was forced to leave.

     

    Of course, that's Allods.   Most games with cash shops lately are okay.   The only one that's a problem is the deal with item enchanting, with chance to break items etc...and cash shop items that help you enchant it.   That's the main P2W thing still left over, though that seems to be going away.

     

    The EQ1 and 2 cash shops are fine to me personally, but EQN is actually being made to be a F2P game from the beginning.   EQ1 and 2 were converted.    EQN being made to be F2P from the ground up, it's more likely we'll see the typical cash shop fluff that's not a big deal.   Cosmetics,more bag space and all that.       Might see the GW2 model with an in game cash to cash shop currency conversion in both directions.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    I think elitist and the self entitled will ruin this game.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • BattlerockBattlerock Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,393Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Being a crappy game ruins the game, payment model doesn't make or break a game.

     

    False. And yes f2p will ruin this game. Unless your a complete moron f2p ruins every game. There are alot out there too. F2p is vreat forcash grab and bad for gaming development.

    If your someone that can play an ftp game without the thought of money breaking your immersion, then you have got problems. Its like the gambling addict who just doesnt know when to stop. Thats the kind of person that plays f2p games and doesnt even think about it when they make a microtransactional purchase. They are just like clickity click click gime that dag ole internets its just like www dot com w com naked chicks just clickity click click click, they have no idea they just click away and spend thier sons or daughters grocery money on healing potions and wizard spells and new armor. Its sad :-(
  • Thanks for pointing that out to me. So its not unheard of for a f2p title to come out with expansions. But did you just move it up from non existent to uncommon. I'm not directing anything at you. I'm just saying that as f2p it doesn't seem to be an industry standard but sometimes happens. While a p2p title, it is expected and an industry standard to do so.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Desias

    Thanks for pointing that out to me. So its not unheard of for a f2p title to come out with expansions. But did you just move it up from non existent to uncommon. I'm not directing anything at you. I'm just saying that as f2p it doesn't seem to be an industry standard but sometimes happens. While a p2p title, it is expected and an industry standard to do so.

     thats debateable

    all companies do content updates differently regardless of business model

     

    I remember the old days, as a monthly sub in EQ1, the content updates were *rare* unless it was a paid expansion

     

    Even Blizzard hailed as one of the better devs for content patches -- commonly only gives endgame content for their "free content"  -- DireMaul and the enhancement to Dustwallow Marsh (patch 2.3) were the only PVE exceptions beyond seasonal fluff

     

    contrast that to EQ2: SOE gave 2 new player cities as part of content patchs

    Neriak - given as a content patch under the sub model

    Halas - given as a content patch under the ftp model

  • IadienIadien Charleston, WVPosts: 638Member
    Originally posted by Battlerock
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Being a crappy game ruins the game, payment model doesn't make or break a game.

     

    False. Yes, f2p will ruin this game for me. Unless you're a complete moron f2p ruins every game.

    Calling someone a complete moron for disagreeing with you, gg.

    There is so much wrong with your post, but I fixed a couple of sentences.

    Originally posted by Desias

    I don't post a lot and will get flamed for it I'm sure but I have a questions and possibly a point to make  for the F2P vs P2P argument.

    To my knowledge every p2p game comes out with regular / semi regular expansions. Not just content updates and there is a difference.

    WOW, FF11 are the only ones that are still p2p and they are old but still come out with expansions. Their games are both huge in content and mass.

    EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

    If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

    BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

    There are a lot of f2p titles and anyone can argue their success but can anyone say that there is any f2p title that is or ever was as big as a p2p title. 

    SoE releases a ton of content, including expansions and quarterly updates. SoE will be announcing the next EQ1 and EQ2 expansions at SoE Live, although that information will be overshadowed by the reveal of EQN.

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common

    It's actually quite unbelievable how transparent these companies have become with their greed.  They use the F2P model because they make more money with it - plain and simple.  It has nothing to do with "survival in this economy."  It has absolutely nothing to do with that.  They were making plenty of money with the subscription models, until people got bored with the same gameplay, release after release.

    Wrap your head around this:

    It costs money to innovate.  It costs money to study and implement new design.  Why?  Because that sort of thing is like practicing basketball.  The best players are the best because they practice their asses off.  But, when designers practice - they practice while on the clock - which means the companies have to pay them.  That costs money.

    So - the reason they call it a business model is because that is what they are focused on.  Subscriptions don't work, because they continue to make the same game over and over again... and people don't want to buy that product.  They already have that product.

    So instead of reinventing the genre, they milk it for everything it is worth.  In other words - their mindset isn't that people are tired of the same old game... people are tired of paying for the same old thing.  So - they change the way you pay for the game you've already played.  People are much more willing to spend $3, six times, than they are spending $15 one time.  As a result, you spend more money than you should.

    I realized the scam when I was playing APB Reloaded.  I played it for about a year and spent at least $600 on it.  Now, the point here isn't that I wasted money on a crappy game.  I happen to like the game, and different strokes for different folks.  The point is I was paying exponentially more money for the same experience I would have gotten with a subscription model.  To be fair, however, despite all of its faults, APB Reloaded isn't you standard MMO affair - which is why I played it in the first place.  So for me, I would have rather the money that inevitably goes somewhere... to go to something different.  I digress.

    It doesn't matter what company or what game any sort of F2P business model is utilized under.  It's a scam.  I can't believe it's even legal.  People say, "I'm okay with it as long as it's only cosmetic."  Well, that's the worst kind!  That's exactly how they get you.  Ever wonder why the only way you can get a decent looking suit of armor is when you pay $$$ for it?  They do it on purpose.  They purposefully make the crappy content as part of the free experience.

    On top of it all, you can't even just buy the thing you want.  OH NO!  They price these things strategically.  Say you want a cool suit of armor.  It looks awesome.  And it's all you want out of the entire catalogue.  Well, it costs $12.  Okay... "No problem." you say to yourself.  "It's less than I would pay for a sub anyway, and it'll be my purchase for this month."  Well, great... except you can't just outright buy it.  You have to buy credits.  But you can't buy $12 of credits.  No no no.  You can either buy $10, $20, or $30, etc worth of credits.  So now, you're not just buying your suit of armor that looks awesome for $12.  No.  You're buying $20 worth of credits... for one item.  Not only is that MORE than a subscription... it's LESS content.

    But you might justify it... "Well, at least I have some extra credits.  I have $6 left."  Except nothing useful is less than $8.  Using your money for XP boosts is an obvious waste of resources, because the game is so easy and short, you level up faster than you can keep up with paying for the talents or armor upgrades.  So now, to use that $6... you have to get $2 more, to get something else.  But again... you can't get $2... you have to get $10.  So now, you've spent $30 total, for one item you really wanted, and one item you didn't really want, but figure it couldn't hurt... and you have spent double a subscription fee.... 

    It's not about "it's too much money."  If I couldn't afford it... I would complain about how it's too much money.  My point is that these are not ethically moral business practices, because they aren't even upfront about it in the first place, and they purposefully make the same crappy game every year and charge you more.  It's like EA and their Madden games.... only worse.

    It's a scam.  The whole thing is a scame, and this is exactly why I have just about given up on MMO's altogether.  They'll milk this F2P crap for another 7-10 years before people realize they're STILL playing the same game over and over and over and over.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Desias

    EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

    If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

    BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

    EQ2 had Chains of Eternity November 2012 -- a complete expansion

    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Eternity

    beyond annual expansions, EQ2 and other ftp games do quarterly content updates

     

    DDO did an expansion last year - and has another one due this summer

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/26/turbine-announces-shadowfell-conspiracy-expansion-for-ddo/

    I dont follow what LOTRO has been doing

    I wouldn't call that 2nd expansion for DDO an expansion.  The only thing that is offers ia a 3 lvl cap increase (which all this does is give playes another feat n stat) otherwise it's just a glorified patch.  Menace of the Underdark was an expansion with adding epic levels, epic destinies, Forgotten Realms quests, new raid, and what ever else was added.  This "expansion" is just a glorified update.  Nothing all that great and certainly not what should be considered an expansion.

    As for the thread, F2P is done in a reasonable manner won't ruin the game.  People need to layoff the F2P hatesauce.  Granted very few reasonable F2P modes exists but it's capable.  DDO is a pretty good system before they added the Astral Shard P2W auction house while Neverwinter is so horrible it is a model of what not to do.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by furbans

    I wouldn't call that 2nd expansion for DDO an expansion.  The only thing that is offers ia a 3 lvl cap increase (which all this does is give playes another feat n stat) otherwise it's just a glorified patch. 

    Menace of the Underdark was an expansion with adding epic levels, epic destinies, Forgotten Realms quests, new raid, and what ever else was added.  This "expansion" is just a glorified update.  Nothing all that great and certainly not what should be considered an expansion.

    thanks for the clarification - I didnt know what DDO's August expansion was offering

  • keenberkeenber galwayPosts: 438Member
    yes it will ruin EQN if its F2P like dragons prophet but not if its free to play your way like EQ
  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Desias

    EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

    If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

    BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

    EQ2 had Chains of Eternity November 2012 -- a complete expansion

    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Eternity

    beyond annual expansions, EQ2 and other ftp games do quarterly content updates

     

    DDO did an expansion last year - and has another one due this summer

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/26/turbine-announces-shadowfell-conspiracy-expansion-for-ddo/

    I dont follow what LOTRO has been doinglotro has had expansions since f2p

    Lotro has had expansions since going f2p.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,617Member Uncommon
    Won't ruin it anymore than it did to EQ1 and EQ2

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ClassicEQClassicEQ alta loma, CAPosts: 145Member

    Anytime a service becomes free, you're going to see a consumer increase. This doesn't mean the game is going to be better for you as a player.

     

    I wish SOE would only support their sub paying player base. Players will pay for a great game. Cash shops do not enhance the game. Combining real world money with in game cash shops is laughable (and annoying). This is a role playing game. There is no immersion in tacky cash shops and they do not make sense in Norrath.

     

    EQN will be F2P. There is nothing we can do. SOE wants the money from micro transactions. It also expands their audience, thus increasing money spent on micro transactions.  I wish they would focus on making a great game and not  making extra money. Logically I don't see sub only happening, cause all their games are F2P now.

     

    I'm just hoping I will be able to tolerate the cash shop. *shrug* .... Man I love EQ way too much. :P

     

     

     

     

     

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,145Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
    I have a huge fear that f2p will ruin EQN like it did eq2 and eq1, and literally every other f2p I've seen. I have not enjoyed a single f2p game because the games are so shallow, and anytime you need to do anything important you have to pay. You usually end up paying more than a sub, especially with multiple characters. What are some good f2p? Because the ones I've played and seen are just so boring after the first week. How can EQN do any better?

    Agree fully with you on f2p. But there are exceptions, i.e. Swtor is same great game as before, Rift would not know, dropped him completely because of silly high hp on trivial mobs in new world of same level compared to old one. In old world ELITE mobs of same max level have less then half hp then NORMAL mobs in new world. Cheap way to extend presence of players in game as every fight with trivial mobs is epic.

  • ZieglerZiegler nashville, TNPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    It's a scam.  The whole thing is a scame, and this is exactly why I have just about given up on MMO's altogether.  They'll milk this F2P crap for another 7-10 years before people realize they're STILL playing the same game over and over and over and over.

     

     

    You're exactly right in your whole post. And people refuse to see it or believe it, and then they also vehemently support it. It's just like those payday loan places or rent to own businesses.

    As well, customer service declines, over community declines, hacking increase, scamming increases...but all of that is acceptable since profits increase too.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon
    I still dont get all the complaining about f2p...I played EQ from 2000-05 and spent well over a thousand bucks on it.....I felt like I wasted my money....I thought f2p was the best thing that ever happened to it...At first it was a little too strict but now it is a good model.....I wouldn't even give EQN a look if it was p2p.
  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Ziegler

    customer service declines, over community declines, hacking increase, scamming increases...but all of that is acceptable since profits increase too.

    when EQ2 went ftp, none of this happened making the game worse

     

    I was a subscriber during EQ2's ftp transition

     

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