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It was a decisive thing that made game design changes and later on one of biggest factors to rise of microtransactions.
People demanding that game and other players change and cater to them "because they don't have time or skill" instead of finding other game for themself, is what ruined MMORPG genre.
MMORPG genre got so disgusting and shallow it's not even funny. btw. I am only whining every now and then on forum when I feel like it, I don't play anymore, can't stand what industry produce anymore.
Originally posted by Hrimnir With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.
i stopped right there. you got tricked by mark kern's "trend marketing". congratulations.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Originally posted by Hrimnir With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's. Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre. We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea. Lets take Disneyworld. Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit. They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do. The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it. So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc. So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way. You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once. Nobody begrudged the people who could. They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun. Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever. Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc. Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them. We have ourselves in our current situation. You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes. Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long. Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material. It dumbs it down, makes it worthless. Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing. So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you. In the process the thing is ruined.
I understand and agree.
But do you realy think they do for whom this topic you wrote was made for?
I dont think so, over the years i gave up on explaining the dumb down and why, its hopeless. Even tho your topic is right on the spot, it hit's the nail perfectly, but its just not getting throught these concrete walls build around there heads its blocking all explain why info, im affraid.
They have abandon those who just wanne still invest game time(this is with nuances, ill explain: Time sink for me or invest long periods accomplish something over several days/weeks/months i realy dont care if its spread of longer periods of time i dont want SPOON FED instant gratification and pleasure here and now i wanne infest time to get it if this take long so be it) and achievements/goals.
I dont have alot time playing work and all, so when i go ingame and it maybe take weeks or months or even years to accomplish something ill spread it over longer periods of time if other players have 24/7 so be it i accept that thats how it is i realy dont care eventually i catch up.
Good try tho:)
Is this explanation clear to those who want it all fast easy and now i serieusly doub they even comprihent what im trying to say here there to far brainwashes by parents and gaming industrie and all the entertainment they absorb these days.
If any of this maybe change someday i realy don't know but im confinced it's not soon i can asure you.
The same content can be made with different difficulty levels for different people. This has been proved to work just fine, and make way more people happy than just the tiny "hardcore" minority (which is actually mostly people without a "real life" who can afford to play video games 8+ hours a day).
And one important thing to remember... it's the "casuals" who fund games, not the hardcore minority. Without the casuals, there would be no hardcore content, because there would be no game.
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Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG Originally posted by Robokapp Not everyone paying his college fees gets As and degrees.
^ This, right here, should end the thread.
No more needs to be said. Absolutely true.
Its not a bad analogy but not a good business one when the outcome is trivial - see what you get in college or university usually matters for the rest of your life so you'll stick it out even if you just get a pass. In games it matters nothing so people can just unsub and the devs have a heart attack. If everyone that didn't get an "A" left in their first semester then Universities would be in crisis - somehow there exists an environment where people are too scared to do that. Probably supply and demand again driven by the importance.
I don't agree people should get the highest achievement given they have access but not sure how to ensure the system works when the motivation to keep the average playing isn't significant enough.
Maybe Golf is a better analogy. I pay my fee for a round but that doesn't guarantee me a score. I also cant nerf the course but I can complete it an get a score. Maybe getting a score type of thing is what gear should be driven by etc e.g time trials for raids as in the challenge mode dungeons in WoW. i.e everyone gets to do it and you can take as long as you want but you get a greater reward the faster you do it. Or something along those lines.
Totally agree with you, except for the $15 a month part. I want to have access to everything in a game, I don't want to pay $15 for 1/2 and another $15 for the other half. Other than that, I enjoy when activities take time. The more time you spend on something the more valuable your accomplishment becomes to you. On the other hand, when they say something like, you can only do this 2 times a week, that's not fun. That would be like a Disney world only letting you ride the funnest rides 2 times. instead they should let you waste as much time on as few rides as you would like. If I want to ride one ride over and over till the weekend is over, plz let me. If I want to Raid, let me raid as many times as I like, don't restrict me to 2 times a week..
I stopped reading around page 7.....
So much energy and hate around here. Yet, we've already SEEN a MMO that handles this problem. CoH. Its very simple to let everyone "see" content. Its called having content scaling built into your game engine. Granted, CoH didn't have the most perfect system for this...as such a system would also take into account your gear as well as level and party size. But I really don't understand why, with a clever enough system, you couldn't have endlessly scaling content based upon those factors with endlessly scaling rewards.
Hell, you could craft an endless end game if you managed the math well. A game that could spawn new items and equipment with higher values along side of generating harder mobs as you progressed. This would take a great deal of work, sure. But even if you only had ONE "final dungeon" when it was all done...that one dungeon would outlive all of WoW's raids combined. To top it off, you'd have all your content tailored to all your players.
Originally posted by Scot MMO design moved away from players who wanted to play an online RPG to those who wanted to play their solo RPG online. And just like their solo RPG, they think you should be able to see everything in the one online. While shifts in society have had some impact on MMO's it is gaming companies chasing a wider audience that have transformed MMO's. The market they are looking to now would put Angry Birds in its list of top five games. How long before the Angry Birds MMO is with us?
The thing that people don't seem to get is mmorpgs aren't meant to be rushed through. Convenient. Work around your schedule. The world is what it is. They used to be dangerous. Intimidating. Make you think about the risk of your actions. Now there really isn't a challenge. The game literally BENDS OVER for you. Gives the gear away. Nothing is an accomplishment anymore.
I think it's the devs fault and not the casuals. They are chasing the almighty buck. Instead of bastardizing the mmorpg genre, they should refine the arpg genre to accommodate these people that want it all handed to them, to solo or whatever and let the genre have its dignity back.
Originally posted by Nephelai Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG Originally posted by Robokapp Not everyone paying his college fees gets As and degrees.
I don't think faster is the way to go, Time is not the only way to challenge somebody. The way to go would be to have certain parts more challenging. Make it so you have to do the dance so perfectly that one mistake will throw it all off. Along with that you should have the easy parts, so everybody can do them. Making people want to rush through something encourages the wrong type of game play I think.
Originally posted by Hrimnir Originally posted by rodingo I don't think I have ever seen anyone complain about how long it takes to level in an MMO on these forums. Well maybe except for Aion when it first launched. The thing is, a casual's $15 is the exact same value as a hardcore player's $15 when you are talking p2p games. The hardcore didn't need to spend anymore money and the casual wasn't able to spend less. It was a flat rate for everyone, no matter what. So if you build a theme park with only a certain number of rides that mainly catered to one group of people, you would probably notice that the Jones' theme park down the street that has more rides catering to even more types of people is making more money and also people from your theme park visit and buy tickets with them as well. Business is about competition and catering to your customer's needs and wants. If you can't supply that then sure, you will have some loyal customers who like your few products that you offer, but you will lose out on all that profit from sales from other customers if you would have diversified. So you have to stay competitive and offer more goods and services to attract more customers. TLDR: In way you thread title is right, except only close minded people will see it as a negative.
You must be blind. There were multiple threads in GW2 complaining that 50 hours to max level was ASIAN GRINDER MMO ridiculous...
Moving on, im not sure what you're trying to say because you're arguing the point we're making, but you don't even realize it.
Nobody is asking anybody to build a theme park filled with hard core high G' death defying roller coasters and nothing else.
A real themepark is just like you said, it has something for everyone. Tea Cups for the young girls, rollercoasters for the grown men or strapping young lads, crazy tall free fall rides for those people. Water rides, etc etc.
The difference is that when some parent comes up to the park manager and says "you know you should slow those high G rollercoasters down substantially so that my young girl can ride them and not be so scared", instead of the manager saying, "well sir, those coasters are not designed for small children and are designed to entertain people who like fast rides and high G's, Im sorry you feel that way, but we have multiple OTHER rides you can take your small girl on", the MMO developers have essentially gone "Oh jeez mister, let me change that for you, i guess all those other customers can F right off, i wanna make sure YOU are taken care of, even though your request is irresponsible and ridiculous'
I love this. Spot on.
Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by Salahudin definitely 15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..
I have 3 jobs and 2 wives. Devs should cater to the majority like me. (/pauses to giggle like a schoolgirl)..who have a life, not the basement dwelling zombies.
A grown man giggling like a school girl aside. Even though you are being sarcastic you are telling the truth. There are lot of gamers who fall in this category and i won't be surprised if they make majority of gamers these days.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."-Luke McKinney
Just don't P2P. There are plenty of options.
This is part of the reason I refuse to sub to games. I have to not only pay a subscription, but I must also play a certain amount of hours to make that subscription feel worth it.
And if I decide to put the game down, I just flushed a lot more time and money down the toilet than I'd care to admit.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
People like this OP are why MMOs are going down the crapper into the F2P realm where they nickle and dime you to death just so the part time player feels on the same level as everyone else. Sorry to All you OP backers however here is the fact. The overwhelming majority of what you called the Entitled gamers today are the same gamers who were hardcore during vanilla and earned everything that had. 8+ years ago these gamers did not have families, or careers to be concerned about or even have to continuously go back to school to keep their skills up to date. A GAME DOES NOT FEED A FAMILY so you can all keep talking about how games should not catter to ENTITLED GAMERS that do not have 4 to 6 hours a night to spend playing a GAME that does not pay the bills or feed kids. Your Group of hardcore gamers are become an ever shrinking group and fewer and fewer people are willing to pay to not see the content as people once were. IT IS A BUSINESS CHOICE TO IGNORE YOU because these Publishers know their are more people that want to pay however having fewer hours a week to play and they still want to feel accomplishment.
A hardcore gamer's $15 a month is the same as a casual player's $15 a month, Only their are far more casuals than hardcore players.
NOW does this mean that the players who do not play the content should get to see it or the gear. NO! However the content should not be like Vanilla WoW's Naxx 1.0 or Sunwell. What should happen and what must happen business wise and MMO community wise is this. Raids need to be scaled which is the core issue for players like me, I once was a player in BWL And AQ20/40 however I dont have the time to play that much maybe 2 nights 3 hours max a night for raiding. Thats it if I had to raid large raids and spend all my time managing them again I will not do it, why do you think there are few large raiding guilds around compared to the small raiding guilds? CAUSE it takes more OUT OF GAME TIME TO MANAGE than it takes to PLAY THE GAME. If I have 10 hours a week I want 10 hours a week of playing the game, not dealing with raid group BS.
The second thing that needs to happen is they need to NERF the content when new content comes out much like WoW does. Sorry Hardcore players however your 1% and money will never ever make up for the 99% who pay the same amount as you and will be happier to take 3 to 5 months to see the content and make the game a process vs 2 month 4 nights a week 6 hours a night raiding. There are fewer of you and always will be without the larger population you will have F2P crap that will nickle and dime you, See Runes of Magic. I know people in there to be a top end raider spend $1K to $5K a year to be exclusive raiders.
Post like what this OP writes is why many games are going down the crapper. It breeds hatered because the OP thinks he is a special Butterfly that should be one of the few to see everything because real life does not get in his way. This causes many new MMO players as well as casual MMO players to refuse to pay $15 a month for a subscription if they had to quit their job and throw their family out on the street just so they themselves can see all of the content. Until the community stops complaining that "John and Phil seen Sunwell 6 months after I completed it on hardmode this game sucks because they nerfed it so others can see the content" and accepts that the content is not for a select few that have all the time in the world we will continue to see garabage come out for MMOs.
Originally posted by Scot MMO design moved away from players who wanted to play an online RPG to those who wanted to play their solo RPG online. And just like their solo RPG, they think you should be able to see everything in the one online.
I don't see any evidence of that.
In fact, the rise of F2P is exactly the opposite. They know they can only play part of the game, but for free.
Lets be completely honest. It wasn't just the time factor that kept people from experiencing end game. Back in the EQ hayday It was very much gated content, where you had to be in a top tier guild because raids were... lets just say not easy. End game was excluded from the majority, who either didn't have what it took to play at those levels or simply didn't know the right people.
Time wasn't much of a factor, because those that didn't have time wouldn't play EQ, one of the most time consuming MMOs i've ever played with time sinks galore.
Time might be a factor with today's generation which is why we have watered down MMORPG's. In that regard I agree with the OP. Other than that, the rest is just pure elitism which we don't need to go back to. If people pay a box price and a monthly fee they should have every opportunity to experience all aspects of a game and not just the special few.
Originally posted by StonesDK Time might be a factor with today's generation which is why we have watered down MMORPG's. In that regard I agree with the OP. Other than that, the rest is just pure elitism which we don't need to go back to. If people pay a box price and a monthly fee they should have every opportunity to experience all aspects of a game and not just the special few.
And I think Blizz is doing that by putting in difficulty option. All the raids are now accessible. You can do LFR if you don't have time/guild.
And you can do hard mode if you want to devote months to practice and beat the content.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Scot MMO design moved away from players who wanted to play an online RPG to those who wanted to play their solo RPG online. And just like their solo RPG, they think you should be able to see everything in the one online.
I was talking about the old days, when most MMO's were P2P. They were paying monthly so expected to see and be able to do everything in the first week they started the MMO.
These days those joining for free do not expect to see and do everything from the get go. It would be a bit much if they did!
Having said that every time a F2P MMO announces that free players are going to be able to see/take part in more of the game it is met with great praise and articles on sites like this one. If you want to make a case for entitlement mentality in gaming, I would make it there.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Originally posted by Scot
Ah .. ok. No disgreement here.
I don't see it as enttitlement when it is the devs who is pushing to give the players more for free. May be it is competition. May be it is to get more people into the door. The reason matter little.
At the same time, it is a free market. If some consumers want to have an entitlement mentality, it is their perogative. Devs have little obligations to provide anything accordingly.
Originally posted by nariusseldon I don't see it as enttitlement when it is the devs who is pushing to give the players more for free. May be it is competition. May be it is to get more people into the door. The reason matter little. At the same time, it is a free market. If some consumers want to have an entitlement mentality, it is their perogative. Devs have little obligations to provide anything accordingly.
Originally posted by theAsna Originally posted by nariusseldon I don't see it as enttitlement when it is the devs who is pushing to give the players more for free. May be it is competition. May be it is to get more people into the door. The reason matter little. At the same time, it is a free market. If some consumers want to have an entitlement mentality, it is their perogative. Devs have little obligations to provide anything accordingly.
It does not matter to me because i have choices.
1. If the cost cutting don't show up in my fun, i don't really care.
2. Ditto ... i don't play games for the marketing.
3. Matter very little. Free to play games = some part is free. The pay part does not concern me. When i hit a pay wall, i will move on. The total price is always zero, for all the F2P games i play.
4. That is up for interpretation, and only matter in specifics. If a game is fun to me, i care less if it is targetting the masses, or just me.
Customers don't make the games they just play them.