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Business Model Will Kill This game

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  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

    I don't get it... Where do poeple get the idea that subsciption games would last and that people who pay a monthly sub don't expect MORE from the game than those who don't pay on a monthly basis...

    Even more, sub games won't last in todays market unless they're really really good and let's face it... Neverwinter is nowhere near that quality to even consider that type of paymodel. The sooner you realise sub model is ancient history, the sooner you'll live a happy life :D

    Because with sub games, if they're doing well they stay sub games and keep delivering content, and if they aren't doing well then they go f2p and you basically know the games being handled terribly.

    Yes, but as I said... To even consider charging people monthly sub and staying sub based game you first need to create a quality game worthy of 15$ a month or else you won't even start properly with game and you'll already have to stop.

    I don't see neverwinter being 15$ a month worth game. Lately I see less and less games (or not at all for that matter) which are worth a sub price. Thinking about it right now I can think of only ArcheAge being worth subbing and from the older games there's only a few of them still worth that price.

    Sub games also have a problem of rapid content expansions because you pay let's say 60$ for a game which gives you all that starting content, but then they charge you 15$ a month, which in 4 months is 60$ which means you should get alteast content which is near the launch content OR they can give out expansions which are free. Which only EVE does (I'm not sure about RIFT).

    So what am I paying the game for then? Server costs? If you can't make a smart server architecture to lessen your costs you should't even be doing mmorpgs in first place. Which is kinda off topic now but I'm hoping you get my point. :)

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

    More crap pls ...

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by Codeme
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

    They don't.

     

    The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

     

    People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

     

    So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

    this is sad but true.

    Actually, most of that post is a sad opinion.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • BlueTiger33BlueTiger33 La Crosse, WIPosts: 158Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

    It's funny you mention EVE. Not a single person I ever heard of actually subs to EVE...they all always use the ingame currency to pay for their "sub."

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    I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
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  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by BlueTiger33
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

    It's funny you mention EVE. Not a single person I ever heard of actually subs to EVE...they all always use the ingame currency to pay for their "sub."

    And that's the beauty of it... Play the game to play it even more!

    Tho, somebody had to buy those PLEX with real money to put it in the auction system for you to buy it with in game currency.

    Win/win situation. :P

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeniZg

    Actually, it's quite the opposite of what you've mentioned.

    LoL is the most popular F2P, lasting for more than 3 years, highly profitable and is the most played online game in general. Even former P2P games converted to F2P have managed to remain on market and make money (LoTRO, STO, SWTOR etc.). Also, compared to P2P market, F2P market is much more profitable and will contintue to expand, as long as it remains that way.

    IMHO, business models don't kill games. It's the games' quality that does so. If some game is high quality product, it will thrive, no matter the business model.

     

    Cash shop (CS) games are of low quality. P2P developers that swap business models know this, and they know that the switch puts their game at the top of the CS pile. 

     

    CS games are profitable, but it isn't that profitable on a per title basis.  Publishers know that the largest influx of cash for this business model (and most games) is during the initial launch period, and this leads them to just pump out low quality games at the fastest possible rate.   This allows them to make a little profit from a lot of different titles, and is a good situation for CS consumers, since they will have a lot of different titles to play.  

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by DeniZg

    Actually, it's quite the opposite of what you've mentioned.

    LoL is the most popular F2P, lasting for more than 3 years, highly profitable and is the most played online game in general. Even former P2P games converted to F2P have managed to remain on market and make money (LoTRO, STO, SWTOR etc.). Also, compared to P2P market, F2P market is much more profitable and will contintue to expand, as long as it remains that way.

    IMHO, business models don't kill games. It's the games' quality that does so. If some game is high quality product, it will thrive, no matter the business model.

     

    Cash shop (CS) games are of low quality. P2P developers that swap business models know this, and they know that the switch puts their game at the top of the CS pile. 

     

    CS games are profitable, but it isn't that profitable on a per title basis.  Publishers know that the largest influx of cash for this business model (and most games) is during the initial launch period, and this leads them to just pump out low quality games at the fastest possible rate.   This allows them to make a little profit from a lot of different titles, and is a good situation for CS consumers, since they will have a lot of different titles to play.  

    Not neceseraly, I kinda hate it that GW are the only games with good pay model and I don't get it why more games don't go that path.

    If you're already aiming for F2P with intrusive cash shop, why not making it a B2P with fluff cash shop? I don't know how it works in asia but I think games would get alot more money out of it that way (I have in mind games that are good enough to even consider lasting few years on the market).

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Originally posted by ragz45

    All they need to do is intrudce a TON of costume, fluff, and mount type items to the item store.  And then lower the prices across the board on the rest of the stuff.  League of Legends makes a TON of money, and they don't charge for anything other than skins (read fluff).

    The sooner FTP mmo's get this into their heads, the better off the entire ftp genre will be.  Players pay for fluff, players leave if ftp systems are more inconvenience than fun.

    Well and their bigger money maker... new characters to buy and use. Oh yah... how can one forget that?

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

    They don't.

     

    The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

     

    People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

     

    So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

    There seems to be a lot of truth to that. So if you fall somewhat into that aren't a tool and see the pattern...

    Games like Borderlands 2 are superior, small squad coop, much much better story and how it is delivered, better loots, you are the game, just much better for a small group. I've said it once, I've said it twenty times now... I never needed a mmo, I just need coop RPG's, they can cater so much more to the individual, just not that many of them.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon

    Gamers tend to know very little about how games get published, even less about why a game gets published. 

    And everyone is an expert on the internet. 

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

    Riiiight...

    Subscription for mediocere MMOs are dead which sadly is what are what has been released.  GW2 is about the only MMO that was different from the attack of the WoW clones.

    If Neverwitner was a B2P or Sub it would have failed miserabely... big time, one of the main reasons people are even playing it is becuase its F2P.

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

    They don't.

     

    The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

     

    People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

     

    So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

    I would say this is true of the current players willing to play this F2P... stuff.  I just wonder how many players there are like me who want an MMO but the current "selection" just dosn't interest us. 

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • DSBHRDSBHR Boise, IDPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by ragz45

    All they need to do is intrudce a TON of costume, fluff, and mount type items to the item store.  And then lower the prices across the board on the rest of the stuff.  League of Legends makes a TON of money, and they don't charge for anything other than skins (read fluff).

    The sooner FTP mmo's get this into their heads, the better off the entire ftp genre will be.  Players pay for fluff, players leave if ftp systems are more inconvenience than fun.

    This is Truth. It is basically imo the difference between Free to play and pay to win in a F2P game. Should be able to play without incovienience but pay to get kewl skins on items and other fluff items.

  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon

    You should have made the title of this thread, "I Don't Like F2P and Subscription is Better."

    Your post could have simply said, "I think F2P sucks, and as a result this game will be shut down." 

     

    I guess your title and post has a nicer oversensationalized ring to it, but it's complete bullshit nonetheless. 

  • Tropos1Tropos1 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by Chrisbox

    I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

     

    I'm familiar with some of PWE's previous games. And a number of things about Neverwinter's currencies and cash-in tactics are all too familiar. The Zen<->Diamonds system is exactly what they have in the old PWI game. Giving them lots of flexibility in leverage people into requiring Zen, controlling the economy. Making it revolve around the Zen currency. While sucking the economy dry of Diamonds and other in-game earned items whenever they want.

    Don't pretend like PWE isn't only in this for the short run. And I feel sorry for the developers that have worked on PWE's games, just to have all their great work and assets squandered by a greedy publisher.

    If you step back to considering the economy of MMORPGs of old, for example EverQuest. Any legal way of buying Platinum would have ruined it. It was the strict and absolute INABILITY to gain the currency without work that made it so valuable. But in NWO, you could even do a few surveys for a few hundred Zen and exchange that for more diamonds than most will earn throughout the first 40 levels of a character.

    In conclusion, I feel that NWO has a lot of good things, and (had) great potential. But an important aspect of an MMORPG is the economic system, and how the developers motivate anyone to care about it. But PWE has had its way with NWO, and the result is not looking good.
  • GolelornGolelorn Hiding From Social Media Peeping Toms, ALPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon

    Agree with the sentiment of most posters. This game is designed to make you spend money in the first month. After that, there is really nothing to do in Neverwinter. The game has no longevity. Too many character advancements require people to spend Zen. 

    In the end this game will only consist of people who dropped 300-500 dollars on the game, and new players unfamiliar with the "f2p" model PWI is infamous for.

  • StrangerousStrangerous ny, ILPosts: 165Member

    Only two reasons I haven't tried the game:  PWI and f2p

     

    Did the whole F2P thing enough I think.  I hate the cash shop.  No matter what I spend I don't get the full game, I don't like having to pay to remove frustrations they code into the game just so they can sell the remedy in the cash shop, I dislike how I can spend $50 on something then next week they add something better in the cash shop.

    In the end I do pay more, but then I always...always regret every dollar ive spent in the game.

     

    LOL works well because its not a mmorpg.  What they do is something a game like that should do...keep it free and pay for character and skins.  Its easy to point to another game in a different game  genre aimed at a completely different crowd of people and say its proof that it works for mmorpgs.

    Now...granted most mmorpgs are done with little variance, thought, complexity and uniqueness as of late, I do expect more will be F2P as people play one or two months then leave p2p games that recycle stale mechanics.  Why hit people for $50 box and one $15 sub when you can sucker punch them with a $100 founder pack and then $50 for a mount before they get bored and move on?  All the while creating an envy mechanic with the floodgate of free players possibly getting them to pay in $40 before they get bored and move on. 

    If developers would go back to making good games people wouldn't mind paying a sub for them.  mmorpgs have turned into quick cash grabs and p2p supports long term growth and long term development...doesn't work well when your plan is to make an overhyped cash grab game.

     

    Im just not interested in the casino mechanics anymore.  If the game isn't good enough to be p2p, if the developers are not willing to make a p2p game without a huge following better...then its not worth playing imo.  I play a couple of very low pop p2p games.  Developers are more into the game/passion than driving around a Ferrari and the games reflect that (imo)

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Golelorn

    Agree with the sentiment of most posters. This game is designed to make you spend money in the first month. After that, there is really nothing to do in Neverwinter. The game has no longevity. Too many character advancements require people to spend Zen. 

    In the end this game will only consist of people who dropped 300-500 dollars on the game, and new players unfamiliar with the "f2p" model PWI is infamous for.

     I've not spent a red cent on my last 3 level 60's and everything I have earned is through a little bit of time.  There are many avenues for an average player to not spend money, everything can basically be gained through a little more time.

     

    What most people here do not like is that someone who spends 2 hours a week can acquire the same as someone who spends 12 hours a day playing, that is the crux of the whole issue.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • LogicLesterLogicLester Claremont, CAPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

    They don't.

     

    The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

     

    People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

     

    So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

     

    I think people need to come to terms with the truth, EVERY company that makes MMOs lately has been shoveling out crap,  Pure, unadulterated crap.  Games that lack features that had been standard in the industry for years, games with more bugs than a locust plague, games developed and run by marketers instead of game designers.  CRAP!

     

    Hopefully one day it will stop, hopefully one day someone who actually wants to make a good game will come along and be given the time/budget/talent to do so.  But pretending the crap we have been served lately is because of a pricing model or "content locusts" is a disservice to all of us.

     

    They're just plain Bad, either Unfinished, Unsupported, or No-talent games.

  • DkompozeDkompoze gainesville, FLPosts: 224Member Common
    Originally posted by dinos_21
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

    They don't.

     

    The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

     

    People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

     

    So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

    +1

     

    +1 to what??    The fact that he said that 'Committed players" wont make a game financially successful, then proceeded to type a whole paragraph describing exactly why a game needs "committed players"  to become financially successful.------smh

     

    WOW - committed players

    EVE- committed players

    EQ1 an 2 - committed players

    go figure

  • romelloromello Calgary, ABPosts: 34Member
    i thought game was already dead? did they merge servers yet?

    hallo ~_~

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by romello
    i thought game was already dead? did they merge servers yet?

    A single server was always the plan and many press releases they have stated that it will be a single server.  Haven't followed Neverwinter since early "closed betas" but I assume that the whole multiple servers was more of performance issue tweaking so a single server wouldn't overburden the techy stuff and working towards a single server.

    As far as the topic at hand is concerned, the cash shop is one of the major deterrence for me... well if I could ever get past the utter crap implementation of D&D mechanics.  As people have coined the phrase "pay to enjoy" which is very apt for Neverwinter.  Was expecting something more along the lines of NWN persistent world stuff than this abomination.  So eh... goodbye forever any hope for a true D&D MMO.

  • kiernkiern Madison Heights, MIPosts: 435Member
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

    I doubt that is the real goal.  It takes a lot of time and money to develop a new game. It would be far more beneficial to them to adjust the prices and improve the quality of an existing one. 

     

    On the other hand, I do fear that their greed may prevent them from seeing that before it is too late. 

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Maplewood, NJPosts: 1,098Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kiern
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

    I doubt that is the real goal.  It takes a lot of time and money to develop a new game. It would be far more beneficial to them to adjust the prices and improve the quality of an existing one. 

     

    On the other hand, I do fear that their greed may prevent them from seeing that before it is too late. 

    Well, Allods had the same problems with its cash shop, and they were fixed.

    Actually, Allods had worse problems.  The problems Neverwinter has with its cash shop are fairly minor in comparison.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by romello
    i thought game was already dead? did they merge servers yet?

    Hard to kill something that is free to download and play.

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