A game system not based on Hit Points. This would include combat, magic and healing effects. Ideally, this aspect alone would help make the game more resistant against Mudflation.
A game world were magic was rare. There would be fewer than one magic user per 1000 characters, including PCs, NPCs and others. Magic should be difficult to learn, to use and would not overbalance the game.
No in-combat healing, barring the rare magic effect or religious miracle. It should take a considerable amount of in-game time to recover from a serious wound, and activity and moving around would be detrimental to healing. The healing alone should make combat an undesirable thing.
A variety of alternatives to the combat treadmill -- politics, religion, social activities, etc.
Crafting should be very restricted. Each political entity should regulate the number of crafters in the area, and who can sell their crafts and what prices can be charged. No character can work in multiple crafts (and there should be difficult restrictions on alts) to encourage player-to-player interaction.
In-game mechanisms to help promote role-playing -- strong emote mechanisms, voting mechanisms, ability to evaluate items, prices or performances (enabling judged events).
Things Hated:
Characters being independent, not needing to rely on others, either in combat or crafting.
Overly abundant healing (potions in particular),
Easy and cheap travel.
'Safe' areas, where the content no longer poses a danger to the adventurer.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
3) Classless and levelless progression with just capped point-based attributes and skills
4) FFA PvP with full-loot offset by a heavy-penalty crime and punishment system (never been done right)
5) Player driven economy with player vendors
6) SWG/Vanguard style housing but with enough provisions so the world doesn't be come a parking lot
7) Player guild wars with non-instanced sieging and capture mechanics
8) Completely 100% seamless world including dungeons
9) Naval combat a la Darkfall
10) A good, engaging, multi-dimensional story that allows for player choice and freedom
11) Players shaping or breaking the world (a more advanced version of Wurm)
12) Truly unique monsters and items, as in there is 1 of this extremely hard-to-kill world boss and once it's dead it is dead forever, or there is only 1 of this named artifact sword and whoever has it has a great weapon but had better watch out for others trying to take it from them
13) Plenty of non-combat activities, including being a bard/dancer like SWG
14) Unit Collision Detection with contingencies to prevent griefing (a la Warhammer/Mortal)
15) Need to eat/drink regularly
16) Major focus put on RP fluff
RED FLAGS
1) Instances
2) Loading screens (beyond the one where you first log in)
3) Auction houses
4) Dungeon finders
5) Instanced PvP
6) Instanced Dungeons
7) Static mobs
8) Boring tab-target or hybrid combat
9) Lack of Unit Collision
10) Race-locked factions with no way to defect
11) Levelled zones/areas
12) Retarded immersion-breaking emotes like the airguitar in Darkfall or modern dances in WoW.
Holy Grail = World to adventure in and explore with no hand holding ( Everquest )
Things hated = Quest hubs/dungeon finder.
World to adventure in = Everquests draw was "your in our world now" and it was true, you felt like you were living in the world of Norrath. As a level one you could go and see a Dragon if you were smart. At level fifty you could go to Crushbone and slaughter Orcs. You didnt have to grind, you could just adventure. You came across other groups in dungeons and made friends. You sat in a camp and chat for hours with new friends. You went on epic journeys across dangerous lands, just to because you wanted to reach that far away dungeon.
Quest hubs/Dungeon finder = With quest hubs you are automaticall taken to an appropriate leveled area ( that is usually full of mobs that you could solo five levels ago ) There is no exploration and due to this, it does not feel like a living world. Dungeon finders again destroy the immersive feeling that Everquest created. There is no need to even leave the main city as you just join and explore the internet until you are grouped. I remember grabbing my friends in Kelethin and telling them about a newly discovered dungeon in Kunark. I took great deal in leading them acorss dangerous lands and telling them to trust me and step into the water.....when we reached Dalnirs crypt and spent the next week there it all seemed worthwhile.
The game was a challenge like we are unlikely to ever see again. Remember walking into a dungeon and being able to fight the mobs at the entrance but having to work your way up to be able to battle the tougher mobs....thats before you even thought of trying the names. When you managed to clear your way from start to the end and kill each named in a dungeon it felt a real achievment.
Originally posted by thedood123 How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that
Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.
Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.
It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.
Originally posted by thedood123 How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that
Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.
Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.
It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.
I wouldn't just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.
Tera-style combat. It's beautiful, interactive, fun, and skill based to a point.
Hated
Literally everything about WoW. I liked not having a lot of skills.
i HATE quest chains, or even quest trackers. I want 90% of my xp to come from mobs not quests.
Easy Set items. I loved inspecting someone and seeing them have random gear from all over the place. Questing for a set, sure. But I hated defiant gear. There was no reason to farm anything anymore
Dungeon Finder/LFG Tool if game features instanced Progression Dungeons
Fast Paced Combat, preferable Action Combat but definitely no 4-6 rows of hot bars.
What are your "things hated"?
Slow combat, turn based or tab target with zero mobility (i.e. like EQ2 or Vanguard- horrible combat)
4 to 6 rows of abilities and skills
linear quest hubs
I can just swap yours around to what i like apart from linear questing.can't stand console type combat with 1 hotbar faceroll bullshit combat for 5 year olds.
Originally posted by thedood123 How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that
Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.
Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.
It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.
I wouldn't just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.
A game system not based on Hit Points. This would include combat, magic and healing effects. Ideally, this aspect alone would help make the game more resistant against Mudflation.
A game world were magic was rare. There would be fewer than one magic user per 1000 characters, including PCs, NPCs and others. Magic should be difficult to learn, to use and would not overbalance the game.
No in-combat healing, barring the rare magic effect or religious miracle. It should take a considerable amount of in-game time to recover from a serious wound, and activity and moving around would be detrimental to healing. The healing alone should make combat an undesirable thing.
A variety of alternatives to the combat treadmill -- politics, religion, social activities, etc.
Crafting should be very restricted. Each political entity should regulate the number of crafters in the area, and who can sell their crafts and what prices can be charged. No character can work in multiple crafts (and there should be difficult restrictions on alts) to encourage player-to-player interaction.
In-game mechanisms to help promote role-playing -- strong emote mechanisms, voting mechanisms, ability to evaluate items, prices or performances (enabling judged events).
Things Hated:
Characters being independent, not needing to rely on others, either in combat or crafting.
Overly abundant healing (potions in particular),
Easy and cheap travel.
'Safe' areas, where the content no longer poses a danger to the adventurer.
I saw more than a few people saying their hate a game with HIT POINTS... How exactly does that work in you head lol? When do you die ? How do you kill anything ? One hits ? I don't get it...
If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.
Originally posted by deveilblad I saw more than a few people saying their hate a game with HIT POINTS... How exactly does that work in you head lol? When do you die ? How do you kill anything ? One hits ? I don't get it...
Ever play DAoC Realm vs Realm? Combat was much more realistic and immersive as players often died in one, two, three hits much more often then most realize that weren't fortunate enough to participate in DAoC RvR. It was insanity and if you didn't bring anyone to rez...well it sucked to be you.
Simply said a MMORPG that overly emphasizes Hit Points automatically reduces the game into a math project that min/maxers relish and easily overcome. It dumbs down the gameplay and immersiveness to the point its laughable at best...most peeps don't get this as they simply take it for granted as it caters to them and their silly fantasies.
Some of us want more immersion and adventure where players aren't just encouraged to work together, they are required to work together...and against colossal BOSS mobs players should expect to die alot and shouldn't expect the MOB to focus all their attacks upon one ultra buffed, high hit point, maxxed TANK...what a freakin joke MMORPGs have become...LOL!
Originally posted by thedood123 If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.
Why not? PC Players constantly have to add/change/upgrade hardware and peripherals...why shouldn't Console players have a variety of add ons as well?
Auction Houses cater to farming companies, hacks, cheats, bots, griefing, etc...which ruins the ingame economy and adversely affects the community overall
Originally posted by thedood123 If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.
There are keypad controllers as well. I hope they get away from auction houses or at least make them less robotic. Would be great to have an inspect inventory option for those looking to trade. But designing a feature simply to make it easier for controller users is a bad idea.
Originally posted by thedood123 If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.
There are keypad controllers as well. I hope they get away from auction houses or at least make them less robotic. Would be great to have an inspect inventory option for those looking to trade. But designing a feature simply to make it easier for controller users is a bad idea.
LOL, I know right...
Funny how there aren't really any good MMORPGs on Console and gee I wonder why, LOL
Developers shouldn't have to dumb down a game to make it more compatible for controller users and all they really need to be is innovative and creative somethings like the inspect inventory method you suggested. Where there is a will there is a way.
Originally posted by ice-vortex I don't think 'holy grail' means what people think it means.
True. It is difficult to imagine things that are wanted but have never been implemented or that were but poorly and thus they are considered a failure. Single server is something I consider a holy grail. EVE has it and that is about it. The technology to do it with millions of players will be tested with ESO and hopefully EQN.
Many holy grails are concepts, like not running out of content.
Holy grails could also be construed as things inherent to an MMO or RPG that you cannot remove without fundamentally changing the game.
I can only hope that SOE was pragamatic when discussing these and sat back and thought about true innovation and holy grails and were not reactive to the current market and doldrums of MMOs being mass produced these days.
A lot of the posts are details, not core mechanics.
Anyway perhaps we can start trying to think of the big picture.
Another thing is trying to solve problems that ahve persisted. As mention the content churn. Another is something like having full loot PVP while not alienating the massive PVE market of players.
How do you make grouping have incentives without making soloing not feasible?
Etc, etc.
The things we argue over, those solutions are holy grails.
Dungeon Finder/LFG Tool if game features instanced Progression Dungeons
Fast Paced Combat, preferable Action Combat but definitely no 4-6 rows of hot bars.
What are your "things hated"?
Slow combat, turn based or tab target with zero mobility (i.e. like EQ2 or Vanguard- horrible combat)
4 to 6 rows of abilities and skills
linear quest hubs
I can just swap yours around to what i like apart from linear questing.can't stand console type combat with 1 hotbar faceroll bullshit combat for 5 year olds.
If you played an in depth MMO combat system that prioritizes movement, strategy, pin point execution then you'd change your mind. But if you played this style of action combat and limited actions available and having to choose the perfect compliment for the perfect time like a WoW,EQ or Rift game you fail miserably.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
holy grail : group content available at any and every level (1-10 (or the first couple of hours if there are no levels) can be solo I guess .. but any more than that .. if there isn't group content .. i'll probably stop playing).
things hated : cash shops and x-server instance portaling lfd.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
My holy grail is single map (instance dungeons with loading are ok, just no loading when moving on the world map other than teleporting).
My thing hated is 'our graphics are so good that if your computer is more than 2 years old or a non-gaming laptop at all you cant play it'. then all that graphics means jack to me.
Comments
Holy Grail:
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
HOLY GRAILS
1) Real-time combat
2) Viable first-person with hands/animations
3) Classless and levelless progression with just capped point-based attributes and skills
4) FFA PvP with full-loot offset by a heavy-penalty crime and punishment system (never been done right)
5) Player driven economy with player vendors
6) SWG/Vanguard style housing but with enough provisions so the world doesn't be come a parking lot
7) Player guild wars with non-instanced sieging and capture mechanics
8) Completely 100% seamless world including dungeons
9) Naval combat a la Darkfall
10) A good, engaging, multi-dimensional story that allows for player choice and freedom
11) Players shaping or breaking the world (a more advanced version of Wurm)
12) Truly unique monsters and items, as in there is 1 of this extremely hard-to-kill world boss and once it's dead it is dead forever, or there is only 1 of this named artifact sword and whoever has it has a great weapon but had better watch out for others trying to take it from them
13) Plenty of non-combat activities, including being a bard/dancer like SWG
14) Unit Collision Detection with contingencies to prevent griefing (a la Warhammer/Mortal)
15) Need to eat/drink regularly
16) Major focus put on RP fluff
RED FLAGS
1) Instances
2) Loading screens (beyond the one where you first log in)
3) Auction houses
4) Dungeon finders
5) Instanced PvP
6) Instanced Dungeons
7) Static mobs
8) Boring tab-target or hybrid combat
9) Lack of Unit Collision
10) Race-locked factions with no way to defect
11) Levelled zones/areas
12) Retarded immersion-breaking emotes like the airguitar in Darkfall or modern dances in WoW.
13) Lack of RP-focused elements
14) Cookie-cutter WoW-cloned lack-of-vision re-hashed design
Holy Grail = World to adventure in and explore with no hand holding ( Everquest )
Things hated = Quest hubs/dungeon finder.
World to adventure in = Everquests draw was "your in our world now" and it was true, you felt like you were living in the world of Norrath. As a level one you could go and see a Dragon if you were smart. At level fifty you could go to Crushbone and slaughter Orcs. You didnt have to grind, you could just adventure. You came across other groups in dungeons and made friends. You sat in a camp and chat for hours with new friends. You went on epic journeys across dangerous lands, just to because you wanted to reach that far away dungeon.
Quest hubs/Dungeon finder = With quest hubs you are automaticall taken to an appropriate leveled area ( that is usually full of mobs that you could solo five levels ago ) There is no exploration and due to this, it does not feel like a living world. Dungeon finders again destroy the immersive feeling that Everquest created. There is no need to even leave the main city as you just join and explore the internet until you are grouped. I remember grabbing my friends in Kelethin and telling them about a newly discovered dungeon in Kunark. I took great deal in leading them acorss dangerous lands and telling them to trust me and step into the water.....when we reached Dalnirs crypt and spent the next week there it all seemed worthwhile.
The game was a challenge like we are unlikely to ever see again. Remember walking into a dungeon and being able to fight the mobs at the entrance but having to work your way up to be able to battle the tougher mobs....thats before you even thought of trying the names. When you managed to clear your way from start to the end and kill each named in a dungeon it felt a real achievment.
Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.
Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.
It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.
I wouldn't just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.
Holy Grail
Tera-style combat. It's beautiful, interactive, fun, and skill based to a point.
Hated
Literally everything about WoW. I liked not having a lot of skills.
i HATE quest chains, or even quest trackers. I want 90% of my xp to come from mobs not quests.
Easy Set items. I loved inspecting someone and seeing them have random gear from all over the place. Questing for a set, sure. But I hated defiant gear. There was no reason to farm anything anymore
I can just swap yours around to what i like apart from linear questing.can't stand console type combat with 1 hotbar faceroll bullshit combat for 5 year olds.
Pwnage
Immersive Indepth Balanced PvP
Dynamic uncanny formidable artificial intelligence in PvE
Immersive Environmental Settings players can fully interact with, to escape and lose themselves in
Collateral Damage
Mounts of all kinds, shapes, sizes for single, multiple, crowd travel and transport
Skills & Dynamic Player Movement/Actions
Real time bartering, selling, buying, trading, disenchanting
Anything that enhances the COMMUNITY!
Real Time Combat
Sandboxes
Suckage
Crowd control
Holy Trinity
Overpowered Gear & Player Templates
Invulnerablity of any type
Teleportation or Fast Travel
Levels & Hit Points
Auction Houses
Turn Based Combat
Queues & Timesinks
Instancing
Vanguard is an exception. A glorious exception.
Looks like you're waiting for World of Darkness
Like to see: Automated combat system.
Don't like to see: Automated trade system.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Inconceivable!
Really wants:
Being able to buff other people that I am NOT grouped with.
Some truly recognizable EQ1 zones
Really don't wants:
Forced PvP
Combat system that requires dodging etc.
Ever play DAoC Realm vs Realm? Combat was much more realistic and immersive as players often died in one, two, three hits much more often then most realize that weren't fortunate enough to participate in DAoC RvR. It was insanity and if you didn't bring anyone to rez...well it sucked to be you.
Simply said a MMORPG that overly emphasizes Hit Points automatically reduces the game into a math project that min/maxers relish and easily overcome. It dumbs down the gameplay and immersiveness to the point its laughable at best...most peeps don't get this as they simply take it for granted as it caters to them and their silly fantasies.
Some of us want more immersion and adventure where players aren't just encouraged to work together, they are required to work together...and against colossal BOSS mobs players should expect to die alot and shouldn't expect the MOB to focus all their attacks upon one ultra buffed, high hit point, maxxed TANK...what a freakin joke MMORPGs have become...LOL!
Why not? PC Players constantly have to add/change/upgrade hardware and peripherals...why shouldn't Console players have a variety of add ons as well?
Auction Houses cater to farming companies, hacks, cheats, bots, griefing, etc...which ruins the ingame economy and adversely affects the community overall
There are keypad controllers as well. I hope they get away from auction houses or at least make them less robotic. Would be great to have an inspect inventory option for those looking to trade. But designing a feature simply to make it easier for controller users is a bad idea.
LOL, I know right...
Funny how there aren't really any good MMORPGs on Console and gee I wonder why, LOL
Developers shouldn't have to dumb down a game to make it more compatible for controller users and all they really need to be is innovative and creative somethings like the inspect inventory method you suggested. Where there is a will there is a way.
What do i Want Most
- Rare Mobs with Rate loot tables
What I want to be killed with fire
- Everybody wins mentality
True. It is difficult to imagine things that are wanted but have never been implemented or that were but poorly and thus they are considered a failure. Single server is something I consider a holy grail. EVE has it and that is about it. The technology to do it with millions of players will be tested with ESO and hopefully EQN.
Many holy grails are concepts, like not running out of content.
Holy grails could also be construed as things inherent to an MMO or RPG that you cannot remove without fundamentally changing the game.
I can only hope that SOE was pragamatic when discussing these and sat back and thought about true innovation and holy grails and were not reactive to the current market and doldrums of MMOs being mass produced these days.
A lot of the posts are details, not core mechanics.
Anyway perhaps we can start trying to think of the big picture.
Another thing is trying to solve problems that ahve persisted. As mention the content churn. Another is something like having full loot PVP while not alienating the massive PVE market of players.
How do you make grouping have incentives without making soloing not feasible?
Etc, etc.
The things we argue over, those solutions are holy grails.
If you played an in depth MMO combat system that prioritizes movement, strategy, pin point execution then you'd change your mind. But if you played this style of action combat and limited actions available and having to choose the perfect compliment for the perfect time like a WoW,EQ or Rift game you fail miserably.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
holy grail : group content available at any and every level (1-10 (or the first couple of hours if there are no levels) can be solo I guess .. but any more than that .. if there isn't group content .. i'll probably stop playing).
things hated : cash shops and x-server instance portaling lfd.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
My holy grail is single map (instance dungeons with loading are ok, just no loading when moving on the world map other than teleporting).
My thing hated is 'our graphics are so good that if your computer is more than 2 years old or a non-gaming laptop at all you cant play it'. then all that graphics means jack to me.