Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

EQN: DG -"Holy Grails" and "Things Hated" In MMOs

2

Comments

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by baphamet

    in order for it to truly be "the largest sandbox style game ever made", it almost has to be a single server.

    my holy grail is simply being able to continue leveling up my single character for years like you could in EQ via the AA system and a slow leveling curve.

    most hated would have to be lame character models like EQ2 had or even worse, the Asian anime style mmo character models.

    can't stand em.

    This holds for me as well.

    Interesting longterm vertical character progression is probably the most important aspect of an MMORPG, for me. I miss slow leveling curves.

    The design where you quickly level your character to max level where the vertical progression stops and you are confronted with "endgame" is what I hate in the MMORPG. I did not hate it in the past, but now when more and more games are adapting this model, I became really fed up with that.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 926Member Uncommon

    Holy Grail:

    • A game system not based on Hit Points.  This would include combat, magic and healing effects.   Ideally, this aspect alone would help make the game more resistant against Mudflation.
    • A game world were magic was rare.  There would be fewer than one magic user per 1000 characters, including PCs, NPCs and others.   Magic should be difficult to learn, to use and would not overbalance the game.
    • No in-combat healing, barring the rare magic effect or religious miracle.   It should take a considerable amount of in-game time to recover from a serious wound, and activity and moving around would be detrimental to healing.  The healing alone should make combat an undesirable thing.
    • A variety of alternatives to the combat treadmill -- politics, religion, social activities, etc.
    • Crafting should be very restricted.   Each political entity should regulate the number of crafters in the area, and who can sell their crafts and what prices can be charged.   No character can work in multiple crafts (and there should be difficult restrictions on alts) to encourage player-to-player interaction.
    • In-game mechanisms to help promote role-playing -- strong emote mechanisms, voting mechanisms, ability to evaluate items, prices or performances (enabling judged events).
    Things Hated:
    • Characters being independent, not needing to rely on others, either in combat or crafting.
    • Overly abundant healing (potions in particular),
    • Easy and cheap travel.
    • 'Safe' areas, where the content no longer poses a danger to the adventurer.

     

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon

    HOLY GRAILS

    1)  Real-time combat

    2)  Viable first-person with hands/animations

    3)  Classless and levelless progression with just capped point-based attributes and skills

    4)  FFA PvP with full-loot offset by a heavy-penalty crime and punishment system (never been done right)

    5)  Player driven economy with player vendors

    6)  SWG/Vanguard style housing but with enough provisions so the world doesn't be come a parking lot

    7)  Player guild wars with non-instanced sieging and capture mechanics

    8)  Completely 100% seamless world including dungeons

    9)  Naval combat a la Darkfall

    10)  A good, engaging, multi-dimensional story that allows for player choice and freedom

    11)  Players shaping or breaking the world (a more advanced version of Wurm)

    12)  Truly unique monsters and items, as in there is 1 of this extremely hard-to-kill world boss and once it's dead it is dead forever, or there is only 1 of this named artifact sword and whoever has it has a great weapon but had better watch out for others trying to take it from them

    13)  Plenty of non-combat activities, including being a bard/dancer like SWG

    14)  Unit Collision Detection with contingencies to prevent griefing (a la Warhammer/Mortal)

    15)  Need to eat/drink regularly

    16)  Major focus put on RP fluff

     

    RED FLAGS

    1)  Instances

    2)  Loading screens (beyond the one where you first log in)

    3)  Auction houses

    4)  Dungeon finders

    5)  Instanced PvP

    6)  Instanced Dungeons

    7)  Static mobs

    8)  Boring tab-target or hybrid combat

    9)  Lack of Unit Collision

    10)  Race-locked factions with no way to defect

    11)  Levelled zones/areas

    12)  Retarded immersion-breaking emotes like the airguitar in Darkfall or modern dances in WoW.

    13)  Lack of RP-focused elements

    14)  Cookie-cutter WoW-cloned lack-of-vision re-hashed design

  • TelilTelil telfordPosts: 282Member

    Holy Grail = World to adventure in and explore with no hand holding ( Everquest )

    Things hated = Quest hubs/dungeon finder.

     

    World to adventure in = Everquests draw was "your in our world now" and it was true, you felt like you were living in the world of Norrath. As a level one you could go and see a Dragon if you were smart. At level fifty you could go to Crushbone and slaughter Orcs. You didnt have to grind, you could just adventure. You came across other groups in dungeons and made friends. You sat in a camp and chat for hours with new friends. You went on epic journeys across dangerous lands, just to because you wanted to reach that far away dungeon.

    Quest hubs/Dungeon finder = With quest hubs you are automaticall taken to an appropriate leveled area ( that is usually full of mobs that you could solo five levels ago ) There is no exploration and due to this, it does not feel like a living world. Dungeon finders again destroy the immersive feeling that Everquest created. There is no need to even leave the main city as you just join and explore the internet until you are grouped. I remember grabbing my friends in Kelethin and telling them about a newly discovered dungeon in Kunark. I took great deal in leading them acorss dangerous lands and telling them to trust me and step into the water.....when we reached Dalnirs crypt and spent the next week there it all seemed worthwhile.

     

    The game was a challenge like we are unlikely to ever see again. Remember walking into a dungeon and being able to fight the mobs at the entrance but having to work your way up to be able to battle the tougher mobs....thats before you even thought of trying the names. When you managed to clear your way from start to the end and kill each named in a dungeon it felt a real achievment.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by thedood123
    How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

    Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.

    Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.

     

     

    It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,085Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thedood123
    How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

    Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.

    Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.

     

     

    It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.

    I wouldn't  just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.

    Coolermaster Cosmos II Case
    Corsair AX1200W Modular PSU
    Intel Core i7 3970X OC 4.50GHz
    Asus P9X79 PRO Intel X7
    16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 PC3-1866MHz
    840 Series 250GB SSDs
    Seagate Barracuda 2TB HDDs
    EVGA SuperClocked GTX TITAN 6GB GDDR5 SLi

  • MasterfuzzfuzzMasterfuzzfuzz United States, NCPosts: 169Member

    Holy Grail

    Tera-style combat. It's beautiful, interactive, fun, and skill based to a point.

    Hated

    Literally everything about WoW. I liked not having a lot of skills.

    i HATE quest chains, or even quest trackers. I want 90% of my xp to come from mobs not quests.

    Easy Set items. I loved inspecting someone and seeing them have random gear from all over the place. Questing for a set, sure. But I hated defiant gear. There was no reason to farm anything anymore

     

  • FangrimFangrim PrestonPosts: 589Member Common
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    What are your "Holy Grails"?

    • Exploration Centric Gameplay
    • Dungeon Finder/LFG Tool if game features instanced Progression Dungeons
    • Fast Paced Combat, preferable Action Combat but definitely no 4-6 rows of hot bars.
     
     
     
    What are your "things hated"?
     
    • Slow combat, turn based or tab target with zero mobility (i.e. like EQ2 or Vanguard- horrible combat)
    • 4 to 6 rows of abilities and skills
    • linear quest hubs
     

    I can just swap yours around to what i like apart from linear questing.can't stand console type combat with 1 hotbar faceroll bullshit combat for 5 year olds.

    Gnome Wankers two.After the events of 18/07/2015 i fucking hate anyone that has anything to do with skyforge
    image

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member

    Pwnage

    Immersive Indepth Balanced PvP

    Dynamic uncanny formidable artificial intelligence in PvE

    Immersive Environmental Settings players can fully interact with, to escape and lose themselves in

    Collateral Damage

    Mounts of all kinds, shapes, sizes for single, multiple, crowd travel and transport

    Skills & Dynamic Player Movement/Actions

    Real time bartering, selling, buying, trading, disenchanting

    Anything that enhances the COMMUNITY!

    Real Time Combat

    Sandboxes

    Suckage

    Crowd control

    Holy Trinity

    Overpowered Gear & Player Templates

    Invulnerablity of any type

    Teleportation or Fast Travel

    Levels & Hit Points

    Auction Houses

    Turn Based Combat

    Queues & Timesinks

    Instancing

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thedood123
    How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

    Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.

    Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.

     

     

    It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.

    I wouldn't  just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.

    Vanguard is an exception. A glorious exception.

  • deveilbladdeveilblad Saint-Constant, QCPosts: 177Member
    Originally posted by Mendel

    Holy Grail:

    • A game system not based on Hit Points.  This would include combat, magic and healing effects.   Ideally, this aspect alone would help make the game more resistant against Mudflation.
    • A game world were magic was rare.  There would be fewer than one magic user per 1000 characters, including PCs, NPCs and others.   Magic should be difficult to learn, to use and would not overbalance the game.
    • No in-combat healing, barring the rare magic effect or religious miracle.   It should take a considerable amount of in-game time to recover from a serious wound, and activity and moving around would be detrimental to healing.  The healing alone should make combat an undesirable thing.
    • A variety of alternatives to the combat treadmill -- politics, religion, social activities, etc.
    • Crafting should be very restricted.   Each political entity should regulate the number of crafters in the area, and who can sell their crafts and what prices can be charged.   No character can work in multiple crafts (and there should be difficult restrictions on alts) to encourage player-to-player interaction.
    • In-game mechanisms to help promote role-playing -- strong emote mechanisms, voting mechanisms, ability to evaluate items, prices or performances (enabling judged events).
    Things Hated:
    • Characters being independent, not needing to rely on others, either in combat or crafting.
    • Overly abundant healing (potions in particular),
    • Easy and cheap travel.
    • 'Safe' areas, where the content no longer poses a danger to the adventurer.

     

    Looks like you're waiting for World of Darkness

  • deveilbladdeveilblad Saint-Constant, QCPosts: 177Member
    I saw more than a few people saying their hate a game with HIT POINTS... How exactly does that work in you head lol? When do you die ? How do you kill anything ? One hits ? I don't get it...
  • stayBlindstayBlind Suwannee, GAPosts: 527Member

    Like to see: Automated combat system.

    Don't like to see: Automated trade system.

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  • thedood123thedood123 Huntington, WVPosts: 149Member
    If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.
  • ice-vortexice-vortex Xenia, OHPosts: 951Member
    I don't think 'holy grail' means what people think it means.
  • StrommStromm BrisbanePosts: 243Member
    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    I don't think 'holy grail' means what people think it means.

    Inconceivable!

  • EQAbnerEQAbner Marietta, GAPosts: 25Member Common

    Really wants:

     

    Being able to buff other people that I am NOT grouped with.

    Some truly recognizable EQ1 zones

     

    Really don't wants:

     

    Forced PvP

    Combat system that requires dodging etc.

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by deveilblad
    I saw more than a few people saying their hate a game with HIT POINTS... How exactly does that work in you head lol? When do you die ? How do you kill anything ? One hits ? I don't get it...

    Ever play DAoC Realm vs Realm? Combat was much more realistic and immersive as players often died in one, two, three hits much more often then most realize that weren't fortunate enough to participate in DAoC RvR. It was insanity and if you didn't bring anyone to rez...well it sucked to be you.

    Simply said a MMORPG that overly emphasizes Hit Points automatically reduces the game into a math project that min/maxers relish and easily overcome. It dumbs down the gameplay and immersiveness to the point its laughable at best...most peeps don't get this as they simply take it for granted as it caters to them and their silly fantasies.

    Some of us want more immersion and adventure where players aren't just encouraged to work together, they are required to work together...and against colossal BOSS mobs players should expect to die alot and shouldn't expect the MOB to focus all their attacks upon one ultra buffed, high hit point, maxxed TANK...what a freakin joke MMORPGs have become...LOL!

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by thedood123
    If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.

    Why not? PC Players constantly have to add/change/upgrade hardware and peripherals...why shouldn't Console players have a variety of add ons as well?

    Auction Houses cater to farming companies, hacks, cheats, bots, griefing, etc...which ruins the ingame economy and adversely affects the community overall

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,659Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thedood123
    If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.

    There are keypad controllers as well. I hope they get away from auction houses or at least make them less robotic. Would be great to have an inspect inventory option for those looking to trade. But designing a feature simply to make it easier for controller users is a bad idea.

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by thedood123
    If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.

    There are keypad controllers as well. I hope they get away from auction houses or at least make them less robotic. Would be great to have an inspect inventory option for those looking to trade. But designing a feature simply to make it easier for controller users is a bad idea.

    LOL, I know right...

    Funny how there aren't really any good MMORPGs on Console and gee I wonder why, LOL

    Developers shouldn't have to dumb down a game to make it more compatible for controller users and all they really need to be is innovative and creative somethings like the inspect inventory method you suggested. Where there is a will there is a way.

  • TibbzTibbz Houston, TXPosts: 619Member

    What do i Want Most

    - Rare Mobs with Rate loot tables 

    What I want to be killed with fire

    - Everybody wins mentality 

    image
  • DejoblueDejoblue Youngstown, OHPosts: 296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    I don't think 'holy grail' means what people think it means.

    True. It is difficult to imagine things that are wanted but have never been implemented or that were but poorly and thus they are considered a failure. Single server is something I consider a holy grail. EVE has it and that is about it. The technology to do it with millions of players will be tested with ESO and hopefully EQN.

    Many holy grails are concepts, like not running out of content.

    Holy grails could also be construed as things inherent to an MMO or RPG that you cannot remove without fundamentally changing the game.

    I can only hope that SOE was pragamatic when discussing these and sat back and thought about true innovation and holy grails and were not reactive to the current market and doldrums of MMOs being mass produced these days.

    A lot of the posts are details, not core mechanics.

     

    Anyway perhaps we can start trying to think of the big picture.

     

    Another thing is trying to solve problems that ahve persisted. As mention the content churn. Another is something like having full loot PVP while not alienating the massive PVE market of players.

    How do you make grouping have incentives without making soloing not feasible?

    Etc, etc.

    The things we argue over, those solutions are holy grails.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fangrim
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    What are your "Holy Grails"?

    • Exploration Centric Gameplay
    • Dungeon Finder/LFG Tool if game features instanced Progression Dungeons
    • Fast Paced Combat, preferable Action Combat but definitely no 4-6 rows of hot bars.
     
     
     
    What are your "things hated"?
     
    • Slow combat, turn based or tab target with zero mobility (i.e. like EQ2 or Vanguard- horrible combat)
    • 4 to 6 rows of abilities and skills
    • linear quest hubs
     

    I can just swap yours around to what i like apart from linear questing.can't stand console type combat with 1 hotbar faceroll bullshit combat for 5 year olds.

     If you played an in depth MMO combat system that prioritizes movement, strategy, pin point execution then you'd change your mind.  But if you played this style of action combat and limited actions available and having to choose the perfect compliment for the perfect time like a WoW,EQ or Rift game you fail miserably.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    holy grail : group content available at any and every level (1-10 (or the first couple of hours if there are no levels) can be solo I guess .. but any more than that .. if there isn't group content .. i'll probably stop playing).

    things hated : cash shops and x-server instance portaling lfd.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

2
Sign In or Register to comment.