Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

[Dev Journal] General: Have MMOs Become Too Easy?

11012141516

Comments

  • AviorAvior mount pleasant, MIPosts: 54Member

    I think this is where free to play can really shine. When I was playing wow, the thing that drove me was a sense of getting my moneys worth out of the sub. To me, and probably many others was getting to the highest level and competing for end game gear. Taking out the sub and the feeling of getting my moneys worth removes that. I'm not as driven to get to end game, or feeling like I have to play every minute of everyday. I can play casual and send some cash in the item store for the some boosts if I feel the need. The thing that bothers me the most about MMO's is the lack of  feeling like I am in a living world. The one that comes the closest is EQ2. Mostly they feel like a multiplayer arcade.

     

    image
  • Ladrann27Ladrann27 ValkenburgPosts: 43Member

    I agree with him for 100%, and I think this post should be read by the majority of the MMO community. There once was a time where games had great dept and where players enjoyed the experiences in the world and were not rushing to endgame content.

     

    Now everything is just a spoon fed theme park where everything is about instant gratification. I hope the genre changes for the better in the coming years, and I do believe this will happen. It seems finally (for me it has been since years) the majority of MMO players are sick of these dumbed down, shallow games.

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member

    They remove all the nuances thus simplifying the games. I remember SWG when there was no speeders or creature mounts. Leaving and adventuring out into the world felt like it meant something.  You did everything imaginable to stay alive and learned survival due to a fear of having to traverse that treacherous path again and again. No teleporting anywhere or LFG ques, Open world dungeons too, they help. Man, almost to the end of a dungeon and die without a rez, you quit cause you don't have the time to fight your way back down. PvP actually did have meaning where reputations and competition was fierce, faction pride was strong as well. Fight to do base take downs or even change cities alignments. I personally miss all the nuances and hope "The Repopulation" is very similar.

     

    image

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Arskaaa

    Well if u want make money with mmo game, its need be casual game. there is more casual players then hardcore players.

    to make game only for hardcore players is like shooting self leg.

     

    What i dislike current mmos is that leveling is too fast.

    Raids turned smaller partys, no mmo feel there.

    Bingo!!

    But casual doesn't mean people who don't want a challenge. casual means people who don't spend 12 hours a day in front of PC and believe in being more productive in real life.

    Sadly for many players (as you can see from this topic) difficulty means lots of un necessay time sinks. The challenge should be in activity itself an not how much time it takes to do a certain task or how many times you die and spend another 20 to 30 minutes to get back in game. That is not challenge..that is tedium.

    I am not so sure, you could either focus a game on a specific playerbase or you can try to make everyone happy. A focused game will be a lot more fun for the specific targets than a general game can be.

    Casual and hardcore are really stupid terms since they seems to mean both difficulty and time consumption but the fact is that we have 4 types of PvE players, people who enjoy hard games with many time sinks, people who enjoy hard games that is fast to play through as long as you play good, people who want easy but time consuming games and people who want easy and fast games.

    Merdian 59 and EQ were both originally for people who liked hard and time consuming games. Guildwars were originally for people who liked fast but hard. EQ2 was originally time consuming but weren´t that hard (played it 5 years), and Rifts and Wow are fast and easy even if they do have a time consuming raid endgame. 

    MMOs needs to stop trying to please everyone and to be amazing for the right players instead. You wont get all 4 types anyways and while the easy fast group is largest there are also a lot more competition in it so a good game focused on any of the other groups actually have the potential of becoming larger anyways.

    PvP is a different matter altogether, there casual seems to mean "instanced" while hardcore means "open world" because PvP is as hard as the competition no matter what mechanics you use. And yes, open world also often includes full loot and free for all.

    I really don't want all MMOs made just for me (I don't have the same time as I used to so I like hard but with fewer timesinks now) but I do want some games for me. And yes, I might get more time in the future and I could have a fast and easy backup game sometimes as well so a large selection of different games would be best for me and frankly for most other players as well.

    I hope kickstarter projects might open up some more options for us players.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Betaguy

    They remove all the nuances thus simplifying the games. I remember SWG when there was no speeders or creature mounts. Leaving and adventuring out into the world felt like it meant something.  You did everything imaginable to stay alive and learned survival due to a fear of having to traverse that treacherous path again and again. No teleporting anywhere or LFG ques, Open world dungeons too, they help. Man, almost to the end of a dungeon and die without a rez, you quit cause you don't have the time to fight your way back down. PvP actually did have meaning where reputations and competition was fierce, faction pride was strong as well. Fight to do base take downs or even change cities alignments. I personally miss all the nuances and hope "The Repopulation" is very similar.

    Traveling from point A to point B might indeed be hard in a PvP game but in a PvE game it's become less hard every time you do the same travel. It also becomes less fun each time you have to do it.

    As I see it exploration is really fun but unless you can make the world change a lot between each pass travelling in PvE focused games loose that part fast. GW2s dynamic events do have the potential of fixing this but that game have far to few things that actually changes the gameworld temporarily. If someone would make a game that really have exploration each time you travel it would be fun, but until then fast travel still will be best for themeparks.

    Sandboxes are a different thing since players can create the content themselves there (or should be able to at least) And since SWG was a PvP sandbox travelling were good in it but it demands the right game.

    Traveling in games like EQ 1 & 2 in the beginning got bring pretty fast and that is why both games added teleporting, because it demands a lot less work than the alternative.

  • AzothAzoth montreal, QCPosts: 720Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Xarko
    Not necessarily easy, but they became SIMPLE.

    I dont see the difference

    Noncomplex vs hard. Complex might be more related to knowledge while hard means it takes skill to play properly etc... (well thats how I read it anyway).

    lol still dont see the difference. Easy and Simple are one in the same when talking about game play relating to MMOs. For me it is anyway. Not going to get all philosophical on these 2 words. No reason for it. Easy and Simple are the 2 words i would use if i were asked to rate the level of difficulty in understanding this topic.

     

    "Have MMOs Become too Easy?"

     

    A Easy, Simple answer to that is YES!

    At most time EQ was simple yet hard.

  • BraindomeBraindome Posts: 769Member Uncommon

    Oh man yes. I long for the days of logging in, enjoying an adventure for the night and going to bed satisfied.

    I'm tired of feeling like I must level or must do my daily's to enjoy the experience.

    The "grind" so to say is sickening.

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABPosts: 437Member
    Yes too easy, and it's s all the fault of devs that cave in to the whining masses.

    Lfg que
    Raid que
    The hand holding quest rails
    Easy mode teleportation
    Removal of death consequences
    Easy exp

    I could go on but what's the point. Mmorpg are made to make money. By catering to the lazy, the inept, and the stupid, Wow made huge cash, and every other game company tries the same.

    Have to start fresh, listen to your heart, not the masses.

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • monstermmomonstermmo Glendale, CAPosts: 1,062Member

    Reaching max level should not be an "achievement".

    I played Everquest and the level grind was a nightmare. It ruined the game. There were plenty of awesome aspects of the game and you wanna know what ruined it? The grind.

    I'd bet all these other people agreeing with the "ease" of WoW don't even do heroic raids. Sure it's easier to jump into PuG's and finish an easy raid. You're not doing the real content though.

    The one thing WoW did wrong was make doing those heroic raids feel not very rewarding compared to the regular versions. The gear you get doesn't look much better, it doesn't stand out. And the stats are increased by a big whopping 5! That's just dumb.

    WoW offers plenty of challenge for the hardcore players. The hardcore players are just less and less because of the rest of the game being "catered" towards the casual player which is just fine.

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
    Join me on Raptr Steam Facebook Twitter Gameverse

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member
    I wasn't aware they were ever hard, just very time consuming. Wining a game of chess against a good player is hard. Staying up all night waiting for Nejuzit to spawn then clicking buton A, B, and C while standing at point C hoping the random number generator drops a elite sword of buttwipe is just time consuming

    I miss DAoC

  • monstermmomonstermmo Glendale, CAPosts: 1,062Member
    Originally posted by Jackdog
    I wasn't aware they were ever hard, just very time consuming. Wining a game of chess against a good player is hard. Staying up all night waiting for Nejuzit to spawn then clicking buton A, B, and C while standing at point C hoping the random number generator drops a elite sword of buttwipe is just time consuming

    lol This too. I always forget to point that out. Totally agree.

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
    Join me on Raptr Steam Facebook Twitter Gameverse

  • NasherUKNasherUK Secret cavePosts: 476Member Common
    Yes. Some are so easy and simplified (e.g. wow) it's just made the game boring.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Jackdog
    I wasn't aware they were ever hard, just very time consuming. Wining a game of chess against a good player is hard. Staying up all night waiting for Nejuzit to spawn then clicking buton A, B, and C while standing at point C hoping the random number generator drops a elite sword of buttwipe is just time consuming
    Yes, that definitely sucked.

    But is it "hard" to be directed everywhere?
    Is it "hard" to craft a recipe that automatically shows up when you reach a certain skill level?
    Is it "hard" to solo 3-5 monsters in one fight and not drop below 1/2 health?
    Is it "hard" to avoid the red circles?

    Pointless time consumption does not make an MMO "hard", in my opinion.
    Pointless time efficiency does make an MMOs easier, in my opinion.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,673Member Uncommon
    Makes me wonder if the people at red5 have even tried thier own game????????
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Arskaaa

    Well if u want make money with mmo game, its need be casual game. there is more casual players then hardcore players.

    to make game only for hardcore players is like shooting self leg.

     

    What i dislike current mmos is that leveling is too fast.

    Raids turned smaller partys, no mmo feel there.

    Bingo!!

    But casual doesn't mean people who don't want a challenge. casual means people who don't spend 12 hours a day in front of PC and believe in being more productive in real life.

    Sadly for many players (as you can see from this topic) difficulty means lots of un necessay time sinks. The challenge should be in activity itself an not how much time it takes to do a certain task or how many times you die and spend another 20 to 30 minutes to get back in game. That is not challenge..that is tedium.

    I am not so sure, you could either focus a game on a specific playerbase or you can try to make everyone happy. A focused game will be a lot more fun for the specific targets than a general game can be.

    Casual and hardcore are really stupid terms since they seems to mean both difficulty and time consumption but the fact is that we have 4 types of PvE players, people who enjoy hard games with many time sinks, people who enjoy hard games that is fast to play through as long as you play good, people who want easy but time consuming games and people who want easy and fast games.

    Merdian 59 and EQ were both originally for people who liked hard and time consuming games. Guildwars were originally for people who liked fast but hard. EQ2 was originally time consuming but weren´t that hard (played it 5 years), and Rifts and Wow are fast and easy even if they do have a time consuming raid endgame. 

    MMOs needs to stop trying to please everyone and to be amazing for the right players instead. You wont get all 4 types anyways and while the easy fast group is largest there are also a lot more competition in it so a good game focused on any of the other groups actually have the potential of becoming larger anyways.

    PvP is a different matter altogether, there casual seems to mean "instanced" while hardcore means "open world" because PvP is as hard as the competition no matter what mechanics you use. And yes, open world also often includes full loot and free for all.

    I really don't want all MMOs made just for me (I don't have the same time as I used to so I like hard but with fewer timesinks now) but I do want some games for me. And yes, I might get more time in the future and I could have a fast and easy backup game sometimes as well so a large selection of different games would be best for me and frankly for most other players as well.

    I hope kickstarter projects might open up some more options for us players.

    I understand your point of view.

    I wasn't saying that game companies should try to appease everyone. I was rather simply trying to clear the mis conception often attached with casual players.

    casual doesn't mean someone looking for easy but someone who doesn't spend hours in front of PC. that is why i said that people often equate time sinks with challenge and difficulty which is just wrong. Time sinks are tedious not challenging or difficult.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Xarko
    Not necessarily easy, but they became SIMPLE.

    I dont see the difference

    Noncomplex vs hard. Complex might be more related to knowledge while hard means it takes skill to play properly etc... (well thats how I read it anyway).

    lol still dont see the difference. Easy and Simple are one in the same when talking about game play relating to MMOs. For me it is anyway. Not going to get all philosophical on these 2 words. No reason for it. Easy and Simple are the 2 words i would use if i were asked to rate the level of difficulty in understanding this topic.

     

    "Have MMOs Become too Easy?"

     

    A Easy, Simple answer to that is YES!

    I'd say think of it like rolling dice.  You get a d6 while the enemy gets a d20, easy yes, hard to win yes.  Although, I'd also say easy referes to the complexity of the game rather than the difficulty of the amount of hit points etc. the enemy has.

    But I agree short answer is YES.

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member

    Whether or not a game is easy, simple or complex and difficult is irrelevant to me. There are simple and straightforward games that I have enjoyed very much and there have been complex and difficult games I have detested. What matters to me is whether or not I'm enjoying the game and being entertained. Am I getting value for the time or money I'm spending on the game. If you want an intellectual challenge, MMOS are simply not going to provide it, particularly if you are an experienced player. You will be too familiar with how the stats stack and all the old tricks games use.

     

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vidir
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Atavax
    Originally posted by Segun777
    There is so much arrogance in this 'article' and the answer isn't a simple yes or no. Lets rather say that as a business gaming companies pander to their audience. Since a majority of gamers don't finish games, its hard to argue that games have gotten 'too easy' even though they have indeed gotten easier. In short, while games have gotten easier its the audience that is primarily driving the movement.
     
     

    Edit for space

    Agreed.. (edit for space)

    And this elit customer base you mention are willing to pay $5000 per month for playing? How else would the developers gain lots of cash from this small playerbase?

         Not even close..  20,000 customers paying $15 a month generates $300,000 per month, which would only take maybe 2 or 3 servers.. The cost of those servers is a fraction of the revenue generated.. Add in cost of hardware maintenance and overhead and you still have plenty of $$$ left over to pay the salaries with some profit left over :)  The real issue is the greed in humans to chase the bigger dollars, which in this case would be devs wanting to be as big as SOE or Blizzard.. As I had said before, if you want to serve millions, then you better sell hamburger and fries.. This doesn't mean a mom & pop steakhouse can't be profitable staying small :)  

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon
    Pretty much since wow came out mmo's have been in a downwards spiral of medoricty and easymode. FF14 ARR and wildstar are just another 2 easy mode mmorpgs in wow's vein. I don't think we'll see a mmo thats actually difficult for a long time. and by Diffcult I don't just mean Endgamez. I mean generally diffcult all throughout. They probally won't do this though because casuals suck at games in general compared to a real gamer, which is why mmorpgs are so easy mode, because they can't handle anything harder. Until casuals get better at games don't expect them to be made harder, due to the fact games cater to the lowest common demoninator skill wise.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,444Member Uncommon

    Well his whole philosophy is correct,something i knew about Wow from day 1.Funny thing is how he would mislead you to sell Wow copies while working for Blizzard but comes out with the truth after leaving.

    The design approach is not leaving because with every developer doing it now,it just becomes a choice of game world more so than the actual game.I have seen even more EASY and more hand holding in games,so they are not moving in the right direction.Also if you create longevity in levels when comes time to sell xpacs you might have several players too far behind,so they won't buy the xpac.So there is no incentives for developers ot change their ways.

    BTW scaling is a real bad idea,it removes all immersion of every mob in the game it also removes your players immersion,You can simply utilize sub class to achieve the same thing.need a lower quest,well hop on a lower level class and do it,no need for scaling.

    EQ2 was i think the one to start scaling and soon realized it was crap because they did not repeat it after the Splitpaw xpac.Then they replaced it with mentoring which is ok on paper but all they did was allow players to overpower lower levels,again not a good idea as you would see raid type content turned into soloing or duoing via the mentor system.

    I might also add that you can really see the WOWesque game designers in other companies.They are all making low end graphic games.That really loses all immersion in the game world and your character it can eliminate all the good things you might do in a game.Having that one giant success in Wow has set forth lots of bad habits in game design.

    He obviously understands what Wow did poorly but is he really designing his own games for the ride or for lack of content to follow that same Wowesque type game play?


    Samoan Diamond

  • LeviathonlxLeviathonlx Cleveland, OHPosts: 135Member
    The comments like what the Firefall dev said always seem to come from developers who are making a mediocre game. I guess easy press is easy press though. I mean I'd wager the vast majority of people who say x MMO is 'too easy' never beat the hardest content in x game. That and people forget that time spent =/= difficulty.
     
     
     
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

    Mostly, but I think the blame falls on players. Games are made easier and more casual to target a large audience, so it's profitable enough to make up for the huge amount of money it costs these days to make a game.

    It costs a lot of money to make themepark games. So they shoot for the biggest audience. Which is funny because its also the most unreliable audience.

  • EQN13EQN13 huntsville, ALPosts: 11Member

    YES

    Not since EQ 1 has there been a game that actually had any real challenge.

    I played EQ 1 for 6 years before finally giving up.  I haven't had a game hold my attention for more than a year since.

    WoW and other games has made leveling a single player event with no fear what so ever of death. 

    People can be D bags in chat with no repercussions. Gear score is the ONLY thing that matters no matter how good or bad you are at playing your character or what kind of person you are. 

    If you were lucky and got carried a couple of times and your gear score is higher than the person who actually KNOWS how to play their character, it doesn't matter. 

    I have high hopes for EQ Next being something special.  

    I want death exps loss.

    I want naked corpse runs.

    I want trains. 

    I want to NOT be safe ANYWHERE.  

    I want Sand Giants to be in level 7 zones.  

    I don't want ANY auction house. 

    I want hell levels that take 4 weeks to get thru. Even lev 1 to lev 2 should take HOURS, NOT minutes. 

    I want it to take me a year to get max level. 

    I want agro KOS mobs that can't be shaken unless I zone.  

    I don't want add ons that tell me where the fire will land. 

    I don't want big yellow ? over the heads of quest givers. MAKE ME FIND QUESTS! 

    When I do get a quest, make it send me all over the place to collect 10 HARD TO FIND things. 

    Make killing mobs challenging and require grouping. 

    NO CLASS BALANCING. A cleric should not be able to solo as easy as a Necro or a warrior.

    Keep PVP on dedicated servers with their OWN RULES. Don't nerf me because of PVP cry babies. 

    Force downtime. I remember "meddling" for 10 minutes just to kill another mob. and that's if a SG didn't kill me while doing it.

    I want to have to "camp" a random mob that may not spawn for 2 days. 

    I know people hate that idea, but I camped ragefire for my Epic for 3 days. I felt like I accomplished something when I finally got it.

    Not evey player in the game should have an Epic. Just those who WORKED for it. Sorry if that hurts someones feeling.

    Life isn't fair. People who work for a living get more than those that don't. It's LIFE, GET USED TO IT. 

    So sick of this No one left behind BS.  Cut off the "welfare" checks in gaming. 

    Yes I know I am basically asking for EQ1 with new graphics, but honestly that's exactly what I want. Nothing wrong with that.

    I'd rather play a game with 500,000 players that enjoy a HARD mmo than 12 million cry baby "gimme" players. 

     

    PS SUBSCRIPTION!! NO PAY TO WIN! 

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member

    This isn't a new thought and is overall accurate.

    Perhaps it is time for devs to hide behind "it's too difficult to have different type servers". If you set up vars in a way where you can control overall difficulty with quick changes, how hard can that be?

    Then we can choose a challenge or not. Masses can prove it out with more of then choosing easy. Where are other hardcores are satisfied with a hard server.

     

  • xeraxxerax LondonPosts: 61Member Uncommon

    Personnally i object to simple (without depth, complexity) more than i object to easy.  Thing that annoyed me with wow were things like, repeatedly removing talents, removing weapons skills and the need to train them.

    As far as easy vs hard content goes like to see a balance of both in my gain as some evenings i fancy easy and some hard. but never simple , basic dumbed down rubbish.

Sign In or Register to comment.