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[General Article] Warhammer 40.000: Eternal Crusade: Making a Warhammer 40,000 MMO: The History

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  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 350Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nighthawk77
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    thats the problem, the wh40k universe is so rich and complex that its almost impossible (not to say impossible) to develop a mmorpg that would translate well all of the IP. if u ask me the only way, i would say PnP with ppl that know the lore, period. 40k its not A or B , its much deep, i dont want to see they turn this into another swtor with ridiculous boring artificial nom meaningful choices that everybody pass throug, "oh i lost my ring for the 45385 time, u bring to me or keep to yourself". From my point of view, they are tryin to bring the lore in a direct and honest way," lets take the part we can do well" (WAR), and lets give the players the power to war the way they want, freedom, to act in the orgy and carnage  thats a good chunk of 40k.

    I agree that quests can't be lost ring fetch quests, but it is not that difficult to create meaningful quests. Thats why I mentioned TSW in my original post. There are brilliant quests that make you think for the answer. War without meaning is certainly a part of the games mechanics, but it is not the whole game. Why would the Imperium not just Exterminatus the world as it has so many Xenos and Heretics on it? There must be something of importance there, either to the Imperium or to the Dark Angles in general. What are Chaos after? No Chaos Legion still fights as it did during the Horus Heresy, internal fractures has split them into Warbands. For a warband the size we are going to see, or perhaps several working together, means that there is something of significance going on. Maybe Perturabo himself has rallied his Iron Warriors back together for this campaign.

    If the battle lasts for a long time (which I am sure they hope it will given that it is an MMO) why do the Mechanicus not deploy Titans? Why does Chaos unleash the Daemon Engines (Iron Warriors use Daemon Engines a great deal after all)?

    The argument of "Oh we have to fight them because they are not us" is as silly as "Go find my lost ring". Without using the story or the flavour of the setting, then it may as well just be an original IP instead of using the 40K tie in.

    I know there will be people who will always want more. I have already seen people say "I wont play/buy this game until I can be Tau". But it unreasonable to ask a team to do everyone at first and expect it to be good. I am happy to let them to focus of Four core races and do others as expansions.

    If only PvP is the goad why not let Players be Tyranids? They could be Genestealers, make use of stealth mechanics, give them a limited use bioweapon for range. In combat their claws are sharp enough to go through power armour like butter, so no issues with balance. For a story perspective they are bad, because they have limited free will, due to the hive mind, and they dont really speak, so bad for story. But this is not going to be a story based game.

    These inconsistencies bother me, because it shows so much wasted potential.

    it wont be a quest game, but everything will be explained in the background lore, dont worry, also i find funny when ppl say "i want to play the flying hairy oddball that appearn Codex X page 22, if not this game will sux and i wont play", geez the bread and butter are there, space marine, orks, chaos, eldar... patience..

  • Nighthawk77Nighthawk77 United KingdomPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    Originally posted by Nighthawk77
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    thats the problem, the wh40k universe is so rich and complex that its almost impossible (not to say impossible) to develop a mmorpg that would translate well all of the IP. if u ask me the only way, i would say PnP with ppl that know the lore, period. 40k its not A or B , its much deep, i dont want to see they turn this into another swtor with ridiculous boring artificial nom meaningful choices that everybody pass throug, "oh i lost my ring for the 45385 time, u bring to me or keep to yourself". From my point of view, they are tryin to bring the lore in a direct and honest way," lets take the part we can do well" (WAR), and lets give the players the power to war the way they want, freedom, to act in the orgy and carnage  thats a good chunk of 40k.

    I agree that quests can't be lost ring fetch quests, but it is not that difficult to create meaningful quests. Thats why I mentioned TSW in my original post. There are brilliant quests that make you think for the answer. War without meaning is certainly a part of the games mechanics, but it is not the whole game. Why would the Imperium not just Exterminatus the world as it has so many Xenos and Heretics on it? There must be something of importance there, either to the Imperium or to the Dark Angles in general. What are Chaos after? No Chaos Legion still fights as it did during the Horus Heresy, internal fractures has split them into Warbands. For a warband the size we are going to see, or perhaps several working together, means that there is something of significance going on. Maybe Perturabo himself has rallied his Iron Warriors back together for this campaign.

    If the battle lasts for a long time (which I am sure they hope it will given that it is an MMO) why do the Mechanicus not deploy Titans? Why does Chaos unleash the Daemon Engines (Iron Warriors use Daemon Engines a great deal after all)?

    The argument of "Oh we have to fight them because they are not us" is as silly as "Go find my lost ring". Without using the story or the flavour of the setting, then it may as well just be an original IP instead of using the 40K tie in.

    I know there will be people who will always want more. I have already seen people say "I wont play/buy this game until I can be Tau". But it unreasonable to ask a team to do everyone at first and expect it to be good. I am happy to let them to focus of Four core races and do others as expansions.

    If only PvP is the goad why not let Players be Tyranids? They could be Genestealers, make use of stealth mechanics, give them a limited use bioweapon for range. In combat their claws are sharp enough to go through power armour like butter, so no issues with balance. For a story perspective they are bad, because they have limited free will, due to the hive mind, and they dont really speak, so bad for story. But this is not going to be a story based game.

    These inconsistencies bother me, because it shows so much wasted potential.

    it wont be a quest game, but everything will be explained in the background lore, dont worry, also i find funny when ppl say "i want to play the flying hairy oddball that appearn Codex X page 22, if not this game will sux and i wont play", geez the bread and butter are there, space marine, orks, chaos, eldar... patience..

    I dont think, just having it explained in the background lore is enough, not for a MMO. The more I think about it, the more this game feels like Call of Duty 40K. I just feel it deserves more. People will just be doing the same shit over and over again, grow tired of it and quit.

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 350Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nighthawk77
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    Originally posted by Nighthawk77
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    thats the problem, the wh40k universe is so rich and complex that its almost impossible (not to say impossible) to develop a mmorpg that would translate well all of the IP. if u ask me the only way, i would say PnP with ppl that know the lore, period. 40k its not A or B , its much deep, i dont want to see they turn this into another swtor with ridiculous boring artificial nom meaningful choices that everybody pass throug, "oh i lost my ring for the 45385 time, u bring to me or keep to yourself". From my point of view, they are tryin to bring the lore in a direct and honest way," lets take the part we can do well" (WAR), and lets give the players the power to war the way they want, freedom, to act in the orgy and carnage  thats a good chunk of 40k.

    I agree that quests can't be lost ring fetch quests, but it is not that difficult to create meaningful quests. Thats why I mentioned TSW in my original post. There are brilliant quests that make you think for the answer. War without meaning is certainly a part of the games mechanics, but it is not the whole game. Why would the Imperium not just Exterminatus the world as it has so many Xenos and Heretics on it? There must be something of importance there, either to the Imperium or to the Dark Angles in general. What are Chaos after? No Chaos Legion still fights as it did during the Horus Heresy, internal fractures has split them into Warbands. For a warband the size we are going to see, or perhaps several working together, means that there is something of significance going on. Maybe Perturabo himself has rallied his Iron Warriors back together for this campaign.

    If the battle lasts for a long time (which I am sure they hope it will given that it is an MMO) why do the Mechanicus not deploy Titans? Why does Chaos unleash the Daemon Engines (Iron Warriors use Daemon Engines a great deal after all)?

    The argument of "Oh we have to fight them because they are not us" is as silly as "Go find my lost ring". Without using the story or the flavour of the setting, then it may as well just be an original IP instead of using the 40K tie in.

    I know there will be people who will always want more. I have already seen people say "I wont play/buy this game until I can be Tau". But it unreasonable to ask a team to do everyone at first and expect it to be good. I am happy to let them to focus of Four core races and do others as expansions.

    If only PvP is the goad why not let Players be Tyranids? They could be Genestealers, make use of stealth mechanics, give them a limited use bioweapon for range. In combat their claws are sharp enough to go through power armour like butter, so no issues with balance. For a story perspective they are bad, because they have limited free will, due to the hive mind, and they dont really speak, so bad for story. But this is not going to be a story based game.

    These inconsistencies bother me, because it shows so much wasted potential.

    it wont be a quest game, but everything will be explained in the background lore, dont worry, also i find funny when ppl say "i want to play the flying hairy oddball that appearn Codex X page 22, if not this game will sux and i wont play", geez the bread and butter are there, space marine, orks, chaos, eldar... patience..

    I dont think, just having it explained in the background lore is enough, not for a MMO. The more I think about it, the more this game feels like Call of Duty 40K. I just feel it deserves more. People will just be doing the same shit over and over again, grow tired of it and quit.

    its impossible to do justice to wh40k complexity in a mmorpg, and quests would make the game feel artificial instead of the organic feeling they areaiming for, giving players the freedom to fight where they want when they want in a fully dinamic planet changing all the time due to war. try to think as u in the skin of a unit in DoW in a 4 faction warfare.

  • Nighthawk77Nighthawk77 United KingdomPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    its impossible to do justice to wh40k complexity in a mmorpg, and quests would make the game feel artificial instead of the organic feeling they areaiming for, giving players the freedom to fight where they want when they want in a fully dinamic planet changing all the time due to war. try to think as u in the skin of a unit in DoW in a 4 faction warfare.

    Quests dont feel artificial if they are done right. Lets take the game "Space Marine" as an example. In the opening go jumpack down onto an Ork ship, but you lose contact with the rest of your squad, so you have to fight through hordes of Orks to regroup with them. Thats a quest. It feels right too, you want to maintain squad cohesion so you fight to get your Brothers back. Relieving the Imperial Guard forces is another quest. Again it feels right because you want to protect the noble soldiers of the Imperium. Then getting to the Inquisitor. Thats damn important because he might know whats going on, why the Orks are so organised, and what they are after.

    Space Marine was a fighting game, but it told its story well, and you got what you wanted out of it, a pretty good FPS, and it felt organic.

    Doing that on an open world scale is possible. Have your faction commander vox missions to you. For the Eldar have someone drop out of a Webway gate with your orders, and then have the NPC busy with resealing the Webway so they dont join you. Practical and keeps immersion intact.

    If you want it to keep feeling fresh, do what GW2 did, and scale your level to the area, with the maximum being the level you have earned. That way you can always have a challenge, and you pick up new skills or weapons along the way (or even terminator armour).

    You can keep the World changing by doing RIFT/GW2 like area events: A squad of Dark Angels deepstrike in and start building fortifications / A Warp Gate opens and a horde of Daemons poor out / A Webway gate lets out a Screaming Banshie Strike Force / A Rok crashes into the planet spilling forth more Orks for the Waaaaagh! / A Tyranid burrower bursts out of the ground disgorging a myriad of Hormagaunts and Termagaunts lead by a Warrior form.

    You can have open World raids for the end game content. Have Perturabo's fortress, that you can seige, and High level Chaos can defend it. Give the Dark Angles a Mechanicum Titan Works, and have the final fight be against a Titan. Again letting the Dark Angles defend it. Have the Ork's Warboss be surrounded by a swarm or Nobz, Gruntz, and Boyz, throw in Killa Kanz, and Squigs. Have him roam the High level areas and be a mobile raid. Let the Orks find him and protect their Warboss. Something similar for the Eldar too, maybe an Avatar of Kaine?

    "Oh but then they will kill our faction leader" Perturabo is a Daemon Prince, unless he is killed in the warp he doesn't die, he'll be back. Titans can be rebuilt. The next Stompiest Ork takes the Bosses stuff and proclaimes himself "de biggest and de strongest". Avatars can be resummoned. Problems solved, and their you have three raids for your faction to fight, and one for your faction to defend.

    Organic quest lines. Dynamic Worlds events. Organic raids. Not so hard.

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 350Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nighthawk77
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    its impossible to do justice to wh40k complexity in a mmorpg, and quests would make the game feel artificial instead of the organic feeling they areaiming for, giving players the freedom to fight where they want when they want in a fully dinamic planet changing all the time due to war. try to think as u in the skin of a unit in DoW in a 4 faction warfare.

    Quests dont feel artificial if they are done right. Lets take the game "Space Marine" as an example. In the opening go jumpack down onto an Ork ship, but you lose contact with the rest of your squad, so you have to fight through hordes of Orks to regroup with them. Thats a quest. It feels right too, you want to maintain squad cohesion so you fight to get your Brothers back. Relieving the Imperial Guard forces is another quest. Again it feels right because you want to protect the noble soldiers of the Imperium. Then getting to the Inquisitor. Thats damn important because he might know whats going on, why the Orks are so organised, and what they are after.

    Space Marine was a fighting game, but it told its story well, and you got what you wanted out of it, a pretty good FPS, and it felt organic.

    Doing that on an open world scale is possible. Have your faction commander vox missions to you. For the Eldar have someone drop out of a Webway gate with your orders, and then have the NPC busy with resealing the Webway so they dont join you. Practical and keeps immersion intact.

    If you want it to keep feeling fresh, do what GW2 did, and scale your level to the area, with the maximum being the level you have earned. That way you can always have a challenge, and you pick up new skills or weapons along the way (or even terminator armour).

    You can keep the World changing by doing RIFT/GW2 like area events: A squad of Dark Angels deepstrike in and start building fortifications / A Warp Gate opens and a horde of Daemons poor out / A Webway gate lets out a Screaming Banshie Strike Force / A Rok crashes into the planet spilling forth more Orks for the Waaaaagh! / A Tyranid burrower bursts out of the ground disgorging a myriad of Hormagaunts and Termagaunts lead by a Warrior form.

    You can have open World raids for the end game content. Have Perturabo's fortress, that you can seige, and High level Chaos can defend it. Give the Dark Angles a Mechanicum Titan Works, and have the final fight be against a Titan. Again letting the Dark Angles defend it. Have the Ork's Warboss be surrounded by a swarm or Nobz, Gruntz, and Boyz, throw in Killa Kanz, and Squigs. Have him roam the High level areas and be a mobile raid. Let the Orks find him and protect their Warboss. Something similar for the Eldar too, maybe an Avatar of Kaine?

    "Oh but then they will kill our faction leader" Perturabo is a Daemon Prince, unless he is killed in the warp he doesn't die, he'll be back. Titans can be rebuilt. The next Stompiest Ork takes the Bosses stuff and proclaimes himself "de biggest and de strongest". Avatars can be resummoned. Problems solved, and their you have three raids for your faction to fight, and one for your faction to defend.

    Organic quest lines. Dynamic Worlds events. Organic raids. Not so hard.

    in a single player game its perfectly, but in a mmorpg no matter how you spin, still artificial, its incredible limited and resets all the time bringing no changes for the enviroment, it will get repeated ad nauseum and become old fast. ill take the warp gate for example, instead of a scripted npc (of course lol), why not give the chaos players the ability to create a warp gate where they want when they want if they have the mats or the resources or the requisites to do so, they are creating "quests" in a organic and ever changing way for their enemies and or allies, completely umpredictable giving space to creativity and realism. The portal have meaning because they are warping demons to fight lets say space marines players taken by surprise there and they wont reset and help chaos wins the war until the players take down.

    Im not saying the game will be like this but im sure the idea behind is more or less this.

  • Nighthawk77Nighthawk77 United KingdomPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    Originally posted by Nighthawk77
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    its impossible to do justice to wh40k complexity in a mmorpg, and quests would make the game feel artificial instead of the organic feeling they areaiming for, giving players the freedom to fight where they want when they want in a fully dinamic planet changing all the time due to war. try to think as u in the skin of a unit in DoW in a 4 faction warfare.

    Quests dont feel artificial if they are done right. Lets take the game "Space Marine" as an example. In the opening go jumpack down onto an Ork ship, but you lose contact with the rest of your squad, so you have to fight through hordes of Orks to regroup with them. Thats a quest. It feels right too, you want to maintain squad cohesion so you fight to get your Brothers back. Relieving the Imperial Guard forces is another quest. Again it feels right because you want to protect the noble soldiers of the Imperium. Then getting to the Inquisitor. Thats damn important because he might know whats going on, why the Orks are so organised, and what they are after.

    Space Marine was a fighting game, but it told its story well, and you got what you wanted out of it, a pretty good FPS, and it felt organic.

    Doing that on an open world scale is possible. Have your faction commander vox missions to you. For the Eldar have someone drop out of a Webway gate with your orders, and then have the NPC busy with resealing the Webway so they dont join you. Practical and keeps immersion intact.

    If you want it to keep feeling fresh, do what GW2 did, and scale your level to the area, with the maximum being the level you have earned. That way you can always have a challenge, and you pick up new skills or weapons along the way (or even terminator armour).

    You can keep the World changing by doing RIFT/GW2 like area events: A squad of Dark Angels deepstrike in and start building fortifications / A Warp Gate opens and a horde of Daemons poor out / A Webway gate lets out a Screaming Banshie Strike Force / A Rok crashes into the planet spilling forth more Orks for the Waaaaagh! / A Tyranid burrower bursts out of the ground disgorging a myriad of Hormagaunts and Termagaunts lead by a Warrior form.

    You can have open World raids for the end game content. Have Perturabo's fortress, that you can seige, and High level Chaos can defend it. Give the Dark Angles a Mechanicum Titan Works, and have the final fight be against a Titan. Again letting the Dark Angles defend it. Have the Ork's Warboss be surrounded by a swarm or Nobz, Gruntz, and Boyz, throw in Killa Kanz, and Squigs. Have him roam the High level areas and be a mobile raid. Let the Orks find him and protect their Warboss. Something similar for the Eldar too, maybe an Avatar of Kaine?

    "Oh but then they will kill our faction leader" Perturabo is a Daemon Prince, unless he is killed in the warp he doesn't die, he'll be back. Titans can be rebuilt. The next Stompiest Ork takes the Bosses stuff and proclaimes himself "de biggest and de strongest". Avatars can be resummoned. Problems solved, and their you have three raids for your faction to fight, and one for your faction to defend.

    Organic quest lines. Dynamic Worlds events. Organic raids. Not so hard.

    in a single player game its perfectly, but in a mmorpg no matter how you spin, still artificial, its incredible limited and resets all the time bringing no changes for the enviroment, it will get repeated ad nauseum and become old fast. ill take the warp gate for example, instead of a scripted npc (of course lol), why not give the chaos players the ability to create a warp gate where they want when they want if they have the mats or the resources or the requisites to do so, they are creating "quests" in a organic and ever changing way for their enemies and or allies, completely umpredictable giving space to creativity and realism. The portal have meaning because they are warping demons to fight lets say space marines players taken by surprise there and they wont reset and help chaos wins the war until the players take down.

    Im not saying the game will be like this but im sure the idea behind is more or less this.

    I personally dont believe that it will feel artificial, but you are entitled to your opinion. I think that with good enough writing it can be done properly.

    As to your suggestion, sure why not? RIFT did it, allowing players to open rifts on their own terms. I just think they also be scripted too, as it will allow the element of supprise in different zones.

  • BatCakezBatCakez None O''ya Business, CAPosts: 127Member
    I have no hope, I'm afraid.
  • JerubbaalJerubbaal Everetts, NCPosts: 1Member

    Are you SERIOUS? You delete my comment because it was critical of this game?

    All I posted was that PvP-extreme-focus will be the death of this game - need PvE - that's why WoW is successful and most other MMO's die off - and that is considered "trolling"

    I am a big 40k fan and a decent mmo fan - being critical of a bit of news IN THIS ARTICLE  is part of the discussion - if you can't handle that, then you're not a decent website at all.

  • SpcTstCrnchSpcTstCrnch Fayetteville, WVPosts: 28Member

    I have mixed feelings towards this game...I wonder how far they are going to go? is Chaos going to be broken down to Chaos and Chaos Space Marine? are they going to add all the imperium (Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard). Will I be able to play as a Chaplain, Librarian, Terminator, Tech Marine, Apothecary  Dreadnought or stuck playing as grunt. 

    What about Chaos, will we be able to play as a Deamon Prince or grunts, same thing for the other factions when they add them in, are we forced playing as the grunts or the specials.

    Will we be able to make our own Chapters or stuck in being in a chapter. 

    I have a feeling this is a big undertaking, a BIG undertaking. the game breaker for me will be if I am forced playing a grunt. 

    The games has promise, but I'm not holding my breath, seen a lot of games with "Promise" that turned to be a bigger let down then fruit stripe gum. 

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