Originally posted by TribeofOne How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM
Why don't you stop whining, grow up, show some freakin self discipline and restrain and learn to play without hand-holding in the games that are inevitably coming?
I agree with this article but really it kind of already shifting away from all this. The market is increasingly moving toward sandbox games and games where the play matters. These games also make the players decisions matter and effect other people's play experience. You will always have those people that just don't want a game that doesn't have quest and ones that think they don't until they try it.
GW1 had a decent balance IMO. No quest trackers / addons but you could look stuff up on the wiki if you got fed up of trying or needed more info.
4. Be honest about your games.
marketdroids know best
5. No more games designed by the corporate BoD.
It's all about leveraging the intellectual property for the maximum reward. Are you anti-capitalist or something? Seriously though, I would prefer smaller studios with a vision.
Otherwise, spot on
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Originally posted by ElderRat funny you should mention LOTRO at the end - a prime example of a good challenging game that has been nerfed to the point of being a solo game with other people playing it at the same time.
I think I'd like to point your observation in a different direction.
I would say that, regardless of it being "a solo game with other people playing at the same time" They took a very focused IP and somehow diluted the essence of it (or just lost sight of) what made it "The Lord of the Rings".
Some friends decided to go back to it and "catch up" on the main quest. Man, I was carrying fruit, returning baskets, asked to kill frogs and beetles and essentially wonder "what world am I in"?
Somehow, at least to the point I gotten to (and have just started again *crosses fingers*) the developers seem to have meant well but to have lost their way.
At least in my opinion.
There is that, but there is also things like Volume 1, Book 1, Chapter 11. Where you have to enter the barrow. When the game first started you pretty much had to have a full group to run it successfully and it helped if you had a lvl 20 in the group or better. Now it is solable. Try to form a group for it and you get laughed at. My experience anyways. From what I saw the last time I was in game they have made it so you can start a character and be at end game fairly quickly - no enjoyment of the journey at all.
I've been saying it forever and I am going to say it again. The time for a premium high quality luxury service mmo is now. We have it in every other product out there. I am willing to pay 30 dollars a month for GM events, no training wheels, RP enforced servers, FFA supported servers, and every other server time under the son. Give me intelligent npc AI and no low spec graphics, constant content updates, real story writers who write adult content and nobody allowed to play under the age of 21 and no cash shop ever. I don't want to play with the cheapskates, or the kids or those who can't afford 30 a month. They have plenty of things to play out there.
Honestly I'm tired of this industry punishing me because I am an adult gamer.
Hell honestly I could pay 50 dollars a month if you throw in a constant evolving damageable world with shifting continents, weather patterns and real AI for your flora and fauna.
When I want a better car than everyone else I buy a Lexus or even better yet a Rolls Royce.
Worried about development costs? Do a demo put that ish on Kickstarter and let the early adopters buy their way in with their support. Make the players part of the entire process from beginning to end.
Where the hell is the damn Rolls Royce of mmos?
These already exist, and yet clearly you've never heard of them. Want to take a guess at why that is?
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
The ongoing conversation among MMO gamers is whether or not their favorite titles have become to "dumbed down" and casual. In an open letter to the gaming industry, we vent on the issues that vex us the most in an attempt to make our voices heard. Read on and then add anything we missed in the comments.
I hope this letter finds you well. I’m not so happy, myself. In fact, I’m downright unhappy; that is to say, vexed, cheesed and more than a little miffed. With you.
Now, we go back a long time, you and I. From those heady early days of Pong, when one could find joy in the movements of rectangles and squares across the TV screen, through text-based adventures, quarter-sucking arcade games and beyond. Today our romance continues through the many-splendored landscape of many an MMO. We’ve had a good ride.
Before I had kids I played Dark Age of Camelot - I just don't have the time to spend hours on end grinding in PvP (Realm vs Realm vs Realm). Today I play Rift. Nuff said.
Another one of these whiny posts I keep seeing in the forum, although this time made into an editorial. "Make a game for me! I don't care what other players want, any gamers worth their salt want what I want, and it doesn't matter if we're a minority and you'll lose money on the game, it will be worth it because we're the real gamers and our gratitude is what fuels this industry."
Why not offer constructive criticism? Why not consider what others want and try to get a solution that's better for all?
1. It's easy to make this an option. Push for that as a standard.
2. I can't find a middle way, but I can't understand why anyone would want an MMO to be cut off. It kills so many aspects of MMO gaming (creating long lasting groups, getting attached to the world and wanting to learn more about it, ...) that it will alienate many players. If you can't enjoy a game for long, there are enough out there.
3. Again, much of this can be made optional. Instance based games can also be easily made to have configurable difficulty. It would be interesting to try that in open world games.
4. You obviously have a problem with semi naked big breasted women, and that's fine, but why not just say that? Your problem isn't with how the game are advertised, or their features, or anything else but the way women look. I'm sure you'd be much happier if the women weren't there rather than if the publishers advertised that as a feature. In fact I'm pretty sure that if publishers advertised semi-nude women as part of every game that has them (which is what you're supposedly pushing for) you'd write an even angrier column on that.
5. Pretty meaningless banter. Nothing constructive here, no clue on what your problems really are. For example, are you really hung up on a small percentage of available MMO's using existing worlds that already have fans?
I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it. you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.
It isn't the least bit of a cop out and truly doesn't have even a sliver of correlation to maturity or responsibility. I can also clearly see you would never understand that, but what I'm saying is the truth.
Its the truth because YOU say so, huh? We'll I say what I said is the truth. so there. I dont guess you'd be willing to accept that though because yours is obviously the ONLY REAL truth.
It's about human nature not opinion. If there's an easy path people will take it. That doesn't mean it was the better way. Saying just don't do it is no more effective than telling a smoker to just quit or a fat person to just lose weight. If it was as easy as just not doing it, it would be a problem in the first place.
Tieing one hand behind your back and going into a fight is somewhat less fun when you lose but know you could of won if you didn't handicap yourself. If you were only ever given the option to use one hand you'd know you did all you could and simply lost the fight.
Just because games are made easy doesn't mean they're better. If that were true you'd log in be at max lvl with everything you could ever want and just look at the screen thinking wow this game was awesome. I don't see many people advocating for that in an mmo.
so we don't really want freedom and the pure sandbox. we want a very strict and limited ruleset that forces us to play a certain way because without it we would always choose the path of least resistance. Got ya. People in real life NEVER make the hard choice. They never take the path less traveled. We all make decisions and live based on what everyone else does. ok.
I'd say both is somewhat right..If a a MMO really did contain difficulty levels (just like most singleplayer games) , not just the option to choose questmarkers or not, the player who wanted a real challenge could chose hard , because even if you would opt for questmarkers or not, todays games are STILL very easy with or without the quest guides.
Quest markers is not a difficulty level of a game, it's just a convinient tool , just like a calculator or a computer that will ease your time a little bit. Diificulty comes from hard brain teasing puzzles or splendid AI .
I agree totally with every single one of those points.
On subject of rushed time lines,i have a stance on that as well.
That stance is the same one for game design in general,if you can't do game design justice,don't bother,you really should not be in the game design industry.
I realize there has to be some entry point for bidding new developers as they are not going to create a AAA game over 5-7 years and have the budget to support it.What is amazing is that i have seen a lot of really low end game designs get lucky and make it big when really they shouldn't be.
We all saw the Farmville craze,i wouldn't give that game a 1/10 let alone a 1/5 yet it made millions of dollars and spin offs made millions more.Games like LOL and all those Dota type games are extremely cheap efforts,really nothing more than Indie type game design but again,they get lucky,strike it rich.So with so many devs getting lucky it does not do much to curb other devs from going cheap and hoping to make it rich.
So our wish list ,those example the OP points out are not likely to change any time soon.Developers still see a lot of lazy gamer's,those that would spend on cash shop rather than earn anything in game and those that don't mind being lazy and having their hand held through out the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Back in the days (in the 90's), games and mmo's were made by gamers. Today games are made by big corporation. Unfortunatly these days it's no longer possible for someone in it's mom's basement to make a computer game. When games are made by big corporation with the only goal is to make a quick buck, it doesnt matter if the game lacks depth, lack content, it only need to sell X amount of box and if after 6 months there is no one playing either shut it down or turn it into pay 2 win.
Wonder why game like Minecraft are such a huge succes ? Cause it's a game made by gamers for gamers. Until someone decide to take a risk, MMO's made today will always cather for the largest crowd possible to maximise profit. It doesnt matter if the game is a WOW clone, lack content, endup being a ghost town 6 months after launch, once they made their profit, it's Job well done, you can either shut it down or turn it into pay 2 win.
I just hope as a gamer that this trend will change but for that we'll need a major hit a la WOW with a game that's NOT a WOW clone, to prove to the gaming industry that WOW is not the only viable model.
I agree wholeheart with every single letter written by author. However, I wouldn't not blame industry, I would blame consumers (players). It is their demand that dumbed down games. It's not problem in games, it's everywhere, in every sphere. With so much progress in technology, a step back in human intelligence.
Originally posted by ET3D Another one of these whiny posts I keep seeing in the forum, although this time made into an editorial. "Make a game for me! I don't care what other players want, any gamers worth their salt want what I want, and it doesn't matter if we're a minority and you'll lose money on the game, it will be worth it because we're the real gamers and our gratitude is what fuels this industry."Why not offer constructive criticism? Why not consider what others want and try to get a solution that's better for all?
Because I want to play an MMO made for other players, not me? Do you?
Almost every MMO released today is a "compromise" that pleases very few. Compromise means that nobody gets what they want. Some features there is no compromise to be had, ie: Full Loot Open World PvP. It is either there or not.
People seem to think that every MMO MUST be made for them. If a poster asks for something different, suddenly they are the selfish ones.
Pot... meet kettle.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
This casual grabbing is what is going to kill the heart of MMO gaming. Casuals fill the $$$ market but unfortunately not in the criteria of the skill/thought department. This is why games are becoming dumbed down, childishly easy and little to no brain thought required. Gaming use to require skill and thinking, now all it requires is heals and guilds with easy-mode.
What were once intriguing and important stories are being dumbed down because our ears and eyes can't take anything outside the comfort-box. No risk, no thinking no complexities nothing. No loss, no loses, no controversies, everyone wins! Old gaming was not like that.
The current market emphasis is on Everyone is a Gamer. No Game Industry, everyone is not a gamer and it's why all the games are getting stupified in the process in a forever PG-13 loop. As one from the generation of the mad arcade players gaming was an art which is now turning into a replacement for instant television and cell-phones. And it's boring both hard-core and the casuals that will flock from one easy-mode game to another.
Someone should make a world building tool that would allow players to create their own fully realized MMO. You would pay to use the engine and have access to whatever games people come up with . It would make games less expensive to make and fit the style of the players. If someone or a group of people want to make a cool sandbox MRPG that scales as the population grows they could do that. If a developer wants to use it to make a decent casual MMO they could do that. The problem is the huge price tags these games require. It makes people release unfinshed games that appeal to the lowest common denominator. In the old fashioned world of Mudds you could have a whole team of volunteers create a really unique game. And some bigger Mudds were made by companies but still didn't need huge budgets. If making a big 3d world could be as easy to build as coding a mudd a lot of cool stuff might happen to multiplayer online games. Just a thought.
Developers should study CCP and their flagship Eve Online. Granted Eve is a niche product, it has been around for 10 years. Eve is on ONE server complex, not a bunch of servers, all of which have low population.
I'd also suggest looking at SWG Pre Combat Upgrade. Swg started down that slippery slope when the game underwent a fundamental change. NGE just made the slope steeper and dumbed the game down. Whether Lucas Arts or SoE caused the mess is moot.
Soe has a known history of changing games; I'm sure all developers are guilty of this.
BTW, I like Scarlet Blade, but I don't like their toolbars as i could find no way to lock down icons.
I think, and this is just my opinion, what you are saying is... TURBINE UPDATE ASHERON'S CALL!!! I remember the long runs, the fun of tabbing through the countryside only to realise that you just engaged the white rabbit, *whipoutwandLSRecall!!!!*
Or running around and seeing a random portal that you KNOW was not there the last time you were here so you go in and find yourself surrounded by golems that are juuuust past what you can hit. but if you are carefull enough and switch to your bow to pull only one at a time you could probably farm up some good motes in here to take to crater and try for the peerless atlan weapon. Or the crazy lugian mines that you wanted to plunder for your hollow weapon, and who can forget the pride of your first succeful atlan stone, so many chains to jump on *($&^%$^&%$*& held the space bar too long with too many points in Jump... or all the dillos for that one uber sexy spine for your perfect haft to get your SRA( a.k.a. Stupid Red Axe; or Siliphi of Crimson Stars...) or just keeping the subway clear for people just trying to get to work. or talking to the portal bot set up by a rather industrious person to make getting to subway easier? Were you a Swiftkiller melee? or a blooddrinker melee? Hehe, everyone who was there knows that was a trick question, as a melee you took just enough item magic to get both.
Developers should study CCP and their flagship Eve Online. Granted Eve is a niche product, it has been around for 10 years. Eve is on ONE server complex, not a bunch of servers, all of which have low population.
I'd also suggest looking at SWG Pre Combat Upgrade. Swg started down that slippery slope when the game underwent a fundamental change. NGE just made the slope steeper and dumbed the game down. Whether Lucas Arts or SoE caused the mess is moot.
Soe has a known history of changing games; I'm sure all developers are guilty of this.
BTW, I like Scarlet Blade, but I don't like their toolbars as i could find no way to lock down icons.
Eve is on multiple physical servers. Everyone is in a "zone" of some sort, the vast majority of which are empty, or nearly so, only a few systems in the high sec areas are 100+. Most people also multiaccount the game, so they have 50K accounts going, but only 25K players (at most). SWG was dead on arrival. The beta folks (myself included) begged for the game to not be released, but Raph Koster and Lucas Arts knew best. People think the NGE and CU "killed" the game. It was never alive. There's a darn good reason why they rushed out the NGE and CU, they were bleeding out on the operating table.
Comments
Why don't you stop whining, grow up, show some freakin self discipline and restrain and learn to play without hand-holding in the games that are inevitably coming?
Solo play is for off-line players.
Lisa, brilliant.
/signed
1. Stop treating me like a moron.
GW1 had a decent balance IMO. No quest trackers / addons but you could look stuff up on the wiki if you got fed up of trying or needed more info.
4. Be honest about your games.
marketdroids know best
5. No more games designed by the corporate BoD.
It's all about leveraging the intellectual property for the maximum reward. Are you anti-capitalist or something? Seriously though, I would prefer smaller studios with a vision.
Otherwise, spot on
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
err , don't mean to be a spelling *** but it's too, not *to*
"have become too dumbed down"
Yes, I got a forum warning for saying the same in a different post, so hit me ^^
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
There is that, but there is also things like Volume 1, Book 1, Chapter 11. Where you have to enter the barrow. When the game first started you pretty much had to have a full group to run it successfully and it helped if you had a lvl 20 in the group or better. Now it is solable. Try to form a group for it and you get laughed at. My experience anyways. From what I saw the last time I was in game they have made it so you can start a character and be at end game fairly quickly - no enjoyment of the journey at all.
Currently bored with MMO's.
These already exist, and yet clearly you've never heard of them. Want to take a guess at why that is?
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Before I had kids I played Dark Age of Camelot - I just don't have the time to spend hours on end grinding in PvP (Realm vs Realm vs Realm). Today I play Rift. Nuff said.
Another one of these whiny posts I keep seeing in the forum, although this time made into an editorial. "Make a game for me! I don't care what other players want, any gamers worth their salt want what I want, and it doesn't matter if we're a minority and you'll lose money on the game, it will be worth it because we're the real gamers and our gratitude is what fuels this industry."
Why not offer constructive criticism? Why not consider what others want and try to get a solution that's better for all?
1. It's easy to make this an option. Push for that as a standard.
2. I can't find a middle way, but I can't understand why anyone would want an MMO to be cut off. It kills so many aspects of MMO gaming (creating long lasting groups, getting attached to the world and wanting to learn more about it, ...) that it will alienate many players. If you can't enjoy a game for long, there are enough out there.
3. Again, much of this can be made optional. Instance based games can also be easily made to have configurable difficulty. It would be interesting to try that in open world games.
4. You obviously have a problem with semi naked big breasted women, and that's fine, but why not just say that? Your problem isn't with how the game are advertised, or their features, or anything else but the way women look. I'm sure you'd be much happier if the women weren't there rather than if the publishers advertised that as a feature. In fact I'm pretty sure that if publishers advertised semi-nude women as part of every game that has them (which is what you're supposedly pushing for) you'd write an even angrier column on that.
5. Pretty meaningless banter. Nothing constructive here, no clue on what your problems really are. For example, are you really hung up on a small percentage of available MMO's using existing worlds that already have fans?
I'd say both is somewhat right..If a a MMO really did contain difficulty levels (just like most singleplayer games) , not just the option to choose questmarkers or not, the player who wanted a real challenge could chose hard , because even if you would opt for questmarkers or not, todays games are STILL very easy with or without the quest guides.
Quest markers is not a difficulty level of a game, it's just a convinient tool , just like a calculator or a computer that will ease your time a little bit. Diificulty comes from hard brain teasing puzzles or splendid AI .
I agree totally with every single one of those points.
On subject of rushed time lines,i have a stance on that as well.
That stance is the same one for game design in general,if you can't do game design justice,don't bother,you really should not be in the game design industry.
I realize there has to be some entry point for bidding new developers as they are not going to create a AAA game over 5-7 years and have the budget to support it.What is amazing is that i have seen a lot of really low end game designs get lucky and make it big when really they shouldn't be.
We all saw the Farmville craze,i wouldn't give that game a 1/10 let alone a 1/5 yet it made millions of dollars and spin offs made millions more.Games like LOL and all those Dota type games are extremely cheap efforts,really nothing more than Indie type game design but again,they get lucky,strike it rich.So with so many devs getting lucky it does not do much to curb other devs from going cheap and hoping to make it rich.
So our wish list ,those example the OP points out are not likely to change any time soon.Developers still see a lot of lazy gamer's,those that would spend on cash shop rather than earn anything in game and those that don't mind being lazy and having their hand held through out the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Ditto!
I subscribe this article completely. Good job and brlliiant wit too.
Irony is that the money-milking "inventions" of the greedy suits in the BoDs are cutting the tree they're sitting upon.
Back in the days (in the 90's), games and mmo's were made by gamers. Today games are made by big corporation. Unfortunatly these days it's no longer possible for someone in it's mom's basement to make a computer game. When games are made by big corporation with the only goal is to make a quick buck, it doesnt matter if the game lacks depth, lack content, it only need to sell X amount of box and if after 6 months there is no one playing either shut it down or turn it into pay 2 win.
Wonder why game like Minecraft are such a huge succes ? Cause it's a game made by gamers for gamers. Until someone decide to take a risk, MMO's made today will always cather for the largest crowd possible to maximise profit. It doesnt matter if the game is a WOW clone, lack content, endup being a ghost town 6 months after launch, once they made their profit, it's Job well done, you can either shut it down or turn it into pay 2 win.
I just hope as a gamer that this trend will change but for that we'll need a major hit a la WOW with a game that's NOT a WOW clone, to prove to the gaming industry that WOW is not the only viable model.
Almost every MMO released today is a "compromise" that pleases very few. Compromise means that nobody gets what they want. Some features there is no compromise to be had, ie: Full Loot Open World PvP. It is either there or not.
People seem to think that every MMO MUST be made for them. If a poster asks for something different, suddenly they are the selfish ones.
Pot... meet kettle.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
This casual grabbing is what is going to kill the heart of MMO gaming. Casuals fill the $$$ market but unfortunately not in the criteria of the skill/thought department. This is why games are becoming dumbed down, childishly easy and little to no brain thought required. Gaming use to require skill and thinking, now all it requires is heals and guilds with easy-mode.
What were once intriguing and important stories are being dumbed down because our ears and eyes can't take anything outside the comfort-box. No risk, no thinking no complexities nothing. No loss, no loses, no controversies, everyone wins! Old gaming was not like that.
The current market emphasis is on Everyone is a Gamer. No Game Industry, everyone is not a gamer and it's why all the games are getting stupified in the process in a forever PG-13 loop. As one from the generation of the mad arcade players gaming was an art which is now turning into a replacement for instant television and cell-phones. And it's boring both hard-core and the casuals that will flock from one easy-mode game to another.
Hmm maybe because the industry was in it's infancy? And besides that WOW did not start out that casual and easy.
Great letter OP.
Do we all want to go back to how hard games started? No but a challenge in today's MMO's and developers realizing we have a brain would be nice.:)
Developers should study CCP and their flagship Eve Online. Granted Eve is a niche product, it has been around for 10 years. Eve is on ONE server complex, not a bunch of servers, all of which have low population.
I'd also suggest looking at SWG Pre Combat Upgrade. Swg started down that slippery slope when the game underwent a fundamental change. NGE just made the slope steeper and dumbed the game down. Whether Lucas Arts or SoE caused the mess is moot.
Soe has a known history of changing games; I'm sure all developers are guilty of this.
I think, and this is just my opinion, what you are saying is... TURBINE UPDATE ASHERON'S CALL!!! I remember the long runs, the fun of tabbing through the countryside only to realise that you just engaged the white rabbit, *whipoutwandLSRecall!!!!*
Or running around and seeing a random portal that you KNOW was not there the last time you were here so you go in and find yourself surrounded by golems that are juuuust past what you can hit. but if you are carefull enough and switch to your bow to pull only one at a time you could probably farm up some good motes in here to take to crater and try for the peerless atlan weapon. Or the crazy lugian mines that you wanted to plunder for your hollow weapon, and who can forget the pride of your first succeful atlan stone, so many chains to jump on *($&^%$^&%$*& held the space bar too long with too many points in Jump... or all the dillos for that one uber sexy spine for your perfect haft to get your SRA( a.k.a. Stupid Red Axe; or Siliphi of Crimson Stars...) or just keeping the subway clear for people just trying to get to work. or talking to the portal bot set up by a rather industrious person to make getting to subway easier? Were you a Swiftkiller melee? or a blooddrinker melee? Hehe, everyone who was there knows that was a trick question, as a melee you took just enough item magic to get both.
Again, just my translation of your post...
Eve is on multiple physical servers. Everyone is in a "zone" of some sort, the vast majority of which are empty, or nearly so, only a few systems in the high sec areas are 100+. Most people also multiaccount the game, so they have 50K accounts going, but only 25K players (at most). SWG was dead on arrival. The beta folks (myself included) begged for the game to not be released, but Raph Koster and Lucas Arts knew best. People think the NGE and CU "killed" the game. It was never alive. There's a darn good reason why they rushed out the NGE and CU, they were bleeding out on the operating table.
gameplay > graphics