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"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
Originally posted by DMKano MMOs were always easy, today they just don't require lifetime commitments to get anything done. We are living in an accelerated age, 40 hours to gain 1 level by grinding 100s of the same mob in one spot - ain't nobody got time for that! I am looking for more fun and entertaining experience that takes less time. I don't want to spend 40+ hours a week in front of my PC playing some MMORPG that belongs in the late 1990s, I still play EQ1 and I played it since launch. EQ1 at launch was horrendously slow paced as far as XP, we just didn't know any different. I don't want to play a game like that again. So if hard=time commitment, no thanks, I am done with that crap forever. just my opinion after 15 years of online gaming.
Different strokes for different folks.
We all got our taste and I been probably playing just as many years like yourself and maybe even more since the Vic 20 was my 1st home computer. I remember getting the C64 and a copy of Zork from Infocom and that game put my mind to think on what the hell I was suppose to do in a text base game.
The introduction to MMORPG's when they became a bad addiction was probably around the time of Ultima Online, but led into a 3D format like Evercrack and so fourth. The games had challenge, they were new and different, you had to use your brain and was pretty much for a niche bunch of gaming geeks that role played in real life. We didnt have Teamspeak and treat the game like a job, but a hobby to hop onto the games with your friends and enjoy the virtual world.
This generation of mmo gamers are alot different from the era I grew up in and instant gratification just simply sucks, plain and simple. This is why so many players game hop to look for something more challenging and rewarding than their last challenge.
I may be part of the minority now of the ole fashion mmorpg players, but I can tell you I got better memories in the older games than thew newer mmo's we got now. I immersed myself in the older mmorpg's, however these new ones are nothing but hop in, get your fix and leave to the other next big thing.
Originally posted by SBFord One of the debates that rages in the MMO-space these days is whether or not MMOs have become to simplistic. In an exclusive developer blog, Red 5's Mark Kern discusses the subject from his very unique perspective. See what he's got to say before heading to the comments to leave your thoughts. It all started with the drive to make MMOs, which in the EQ and Ultima days were a niche and hard core game, more accessible. Accessibility was the mantra when I was leading the World of Warcraft team. We labored over the user interface for the game, going through many iterations, to find one that would be easy and intuitive for players new to the genre. We created a massive number of quests to lead the player through the world, making sure that they never had to think about what to do next.
Read more of Mark Kern's Have MMOs Become Too Easy?
Easy is nice when you have a low population. Difficulty is nice when you know you will get into a group. Most mmorpgs I can think of are just solo Rpgs until you level cap and then it just becomes a silly gear fest.
So... what you're saying is --- THIS IS YOUR FAULT!
One of the best games developed in the past few years is Minecraft. What a great game. But I really don't play it that much anymore. As soon as the game presents a challenge or requires me to do something tedious, I am to tempted to go into Creative Mode. I can't seem to get away from it. Even if I set the game so it's not there, I eventually breakdown and edit the DAT file and allow it. I give it too easy. So the game got boring because I take shortcuts when the are available.
This is similar to what has happened to MMOs. Too many things are just given now, no effort no accomplishment so no reward value. In an effort to reduce the grind, Devs have shot themselves in the foot.
Looking at: The RepopulationPreordering: NonePlaying: Random Games
Originally posted by ExiledTyrant Secret world was a blatant 1 shot fest in any dungeon on hard or nightmare. It took a game that was supposed to make a myriad of builds viable shoehorn people into about 3 that worked. Please do not try to champion that garbage game when many left because of their crappy end game gear grind that only rehashed dungeons you've done a million times by doing what you supposedly hate. ADD MORE HP AND DAMAGE.
That's a LIE. Players have a choice of putting on gear and skills to do any task they want, and it promotes team work and synergy.
For the record I'm not championing anything. The Secret World is far from perfect but they got the dungeon mechanics and questing right especially on Nightmare which introduced mechanics that challenged people.
Mostly, but I think the blame falls on players. Games are made easier and more casual to target a large audience, so it's profitable enough to make up for the huge amount of money it costs these days to make a game. In order to be a successful niche game with the difficulty the most vocal of the base are asking for, developers would need to lower the overall quality of the game (content, graphics, etc) in order to remain in business while purposefully targeting a smaller audience. Except, by doing this, they then alienate a significant portion of even that base, who will turn up their noses at the game because the graphics aren't comparable with current/next-gen AAAs.
Gamers are their own worst enemies.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Let us not forget the fact the back in the day it was pretty awsome, to play with other people in a game online, the possiblities were endless. It was the newness of the internet that made most MMOS and any mutiplayer game awasome in itself.
Now we know we cant just make a game without having invencible guards to help protect you from grifers when in town, and we know that most MMOS people do not role play or even socialize, which back in the days of UO that was the coolest thing was to be able to interact with people online.
MMOS have been reduced to untility and function, and "look what I have that you dont have" and play ground for the over ambitious whos only goal is to achieve for the sake of it, forget the story, or the expierence in itself
No,There still hard mmo. But real question is: Are there hypocritical devs?
And answer:Yes,you are.
Dude you game is easy as 2+2.And we all know it's 4,but your fans don't know that,because they are EX-Call of Duty Fan.So stop making up lies and thinking.
When I'm having more fun in an indie mmo that just came out that is as old school as EQ, with no map and I almost die at the very first mobs, it tells me yeah they have become too easy. If a sense of challenge and immersion with hardly any graphic quality or AAA features is more fun to play, then yep.
By the way, if anyone is interested in the game I'm referring to it's an indie old school type mmo, The Hammers End. Jjust came out and it's fairly fun.
I haven't read most of the replies, so I apologise if I'm repeating anything.
I think it's wrong to tie difficulty and interest. I played EQ2 in '06 and it was terribly boring. It was difficult, getting around was slow, and so I spent most of my time traveling to places while trying to avoid mobs, sometimes dying and going back weakened to collect my shard, which often resulted in another death, and finally getting to the place of the quest, spending time fighting a difficult battle with a beetle or something, and going back to the quest giver. It was terribly terribly boring. It was boring because the quests were boring and because they took so much time, and spending hours to do a pretty meaningless quest isn't rewarding.
These days EQ2 still has many boring quests, but at least they are easier. They still take time, they're not always a walk in the park, but they're generally easier and it's possible to get to them more quickly, and that at least means that you're spending less time getting bored out of your mind and more time doing a variety of things. (And EQ2 added good low level content which makes at least the low levels more interesting.)
I agree that difficulty matters, which is why I liked the ability to set a difficulty level in City of Heroes (my favourite MMO), but the claim that difficult makes things interesting is simply wrong.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.? -Albert Einstein
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.
Both solo games and MMO's have become too easy, on both PC and consoles. Some might say consoles did not have as far to fall, but you can see it across gaming.
And you are going to see more of it, those social media types don't want difficulty, they want Angry Birds as a MMO. They are the new potential playerbase and there are millions more of them out there than us playing MMO's at the moment.
Todays MMO's are not made for the people who were there from their foundation, tomorrows MMO's will not be made for you.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Well said Mark; you wrote what I've been thinking, what I've been saying on the WoW forums for years. Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone that was part of creating WoW gets it at all. I gave up on that ever happening the day Mists of Pandaria was announced.
Frankly though, I'm skeptical that you really get it. The depth of an MMOG doesn't come from having 40-player raids instead of 5-player instances, it's what you do as a dev team with those things. Solo play, even, can be as deep and challenging as any raid; I suggest taking a look at the Green Fire quest for Warlocks in WoW as an example. I suggest you remember the old WoW instances and compare them to the newer raids - which gave more of a sense of accomplishment? Yeah, it's not about numbers of players, it's about the developers thinking about the entire game and creating something meaningful and challenging all the way through.
The fact is, even the most hardcore raider spends much of his time playing alone, and what WoW has done is make all that time outside of raids feel like a chore, at best. Have they got more of a percentage of the players doing instances? Absolutely, and that looks good on paper, but what those players are doing is running something they feel like they have to in order to keep up with the proverbial Jones family. Back in the original game it was kind of a pain in the butt to set up an instance run - but people did it because they WANTED to, not because they felt they had to.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
Well if u want make money with mmo game, its need be casual game. there is more casual players then hardcore players.
to make game only for hardcore players is like shooting self leg.
What i dislike current mmos is that leveling is too fast.
Raids turned smaller partys, no mmo feel there.
Yes, got play Vanilla WoW and then WoW how it is now, I could take on 5 mobs at once where when I played a Vanilla server I wiped 3 times in the starter area. Also elite mobs were elite, you needed a group to take them, I couldn't believe that I couldn't solo Hogger which is so easy now, unless they removed him since I played.
EQ2 is even easier, that game used to be so hard, you needed a group for everything, sadly it's been dumbed down more than WoW. My DK has Three useful skills that auto heal you and do damage over time, I just hit them over and over and I can endlessly tank 10+ mobs. Such a shame how dumbed down EQ2 is....
I totally agree with what Mark has said, which is why I've abandoned so many games after beta-testing, and returned, time and time again, to old favourites like Vanguard. Why? Because although it may look clunky by modern standards, there is a depth to both the gameplay and the game world that keeps me enthralled and, most importantly, challenged. And I've been gaming since the Colossal Cave adventure, so believe me, that's a hell of a lot of play time!
I've become so tired of all the hype about the latest and greatest, which invariably means whizzy graphics and not much else, as everyone jumps on the "make it easy" bandwagon, and totally misses what the term "immersive" actually means. Smokeysong has the right of it, to keep me playing, it has to be meaningful and challenging *all the way through*.
Take Neverwinter for instance: a huge opportunity that has been totally squandered, and is only worth playing for some of the player-created scenarios. Some of these, although hidebound by the game engine, show true originality, humour and depth. The guys who wrote these scenarios are the ones that should be employed in the game industry, to bring back the days when I could get totally involved in a game, without feeling that it was just a grindfest.
Originally posted by Arskaaa Well if u want make money with mmo game, its need be casual game. there is more casual players then hardcore players. to make game only for hardcore players is like shooting self leg. What i dislike current mmos is that leveling is too fast. Raids turned smaller partys, no mmo feel there.
But casual doesn't mean people who don't want a challenge. casual means people who don't spend 12 hours a day in front of PC and believe in being more productive in real life.
Sadly for many players (as you can see from this topic) difficulty means lots of un necessay time sinks. The challenge should be in activity itself an not how much time it takes to do a certain task or how many times you die and spend another 20 to 30 minutes to get back in game. That is not challenge..that is tedium.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."-Luke McKinney
I'm playing Granado Espada (once known as Swords of the New World) lately. There are a HEAP of bugs, the quests line system is generally confusing and somewhat frustrating, and the game can be played 80% afk.
And yet I'm loving it. Even the frustration from the intractible quest system has an odd "satisfied once done" factor to it. I'm right now attempting to get to the quest line that allows me to do the quest line to open up the "Master Stance" shop, and despite spending so far two entire days switching between the game, websites, my alt toons, I'm loving what I'm experiencing.
Originally posted by tixylix Yes, got play Vanilla WoW and then WoW how it is now, I could take on 5 mobs at once where when I played a Vanilla server I wiped 3 times in the starter area. Also elite mobs were elite, you needed a group to take them, I couldn't believe that I couldn't solo Hogger which is so easy now, unless they removed him since I played. EQ2 is even easier, that game used to be so hard, you needed a group for everything, sadly it's been dumbed down more than WoW. My DK has Three useful skills that auto heal you and do damage over time, I just hit them over and over and I can endlessly tank 10+ mobs. Such a shame how dumbed down EQ2 is....
When I started WoW I could have made the same comparison from the games I had left to Vanilla WoW..
Possibly my experince in other games helped me, or it was because I played a paladin. I could kill anything non-elite in a few swings and elite mobs were the only thing that were anything like I was used to from other games.
Dungeons were a bit harder.. but usually due to the fact that often people werent used to group play.