Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I will say I find it amazing that they locked my satirical thread about this one, but have yet to lock this most obvious troll thread. This site's moderation is as always quite stellar.
I'm truly sorry that is all you've gotten from this thread.
For me it's been very informative. I know understand, empathize with the majority of posters here.
Has it been informative for you? Do you now understand there isn't a way to "fix it" and also understand that the majority will always be against open world forced... uh I mean "no way to opt out" (since people will focus only on the word "forced") PvP and therefore the currently solutions of doing PvP either through 1) an opt in opt out system(includes battleground systems) or 2) servers designated for PvP are the only ones that will exist and so there is no point trying to get major publishers to release their games as only open world "no opt out" PvP?
If you don't understand those things now then this hasn't been informative for you.
Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, [...]
It's the only explanation that matters, whether you like or accept it or not is wholly irrelevant.
Question is, why do you care if other people like it or not?
This guy hit it right on the head. Your opinion doesn't mean anything to me. Too bad you don't accept it. Your ability to not accept me liking or disliking something is irrelevant. If I like something, I like it; or vice versa. I don't need your "sign off" on whether that is valid or not.
To answer the OP question though. I have played text MUDs before even graphical MMOs like UO came out. So I have 18 years of MMO experience. I started out when I was younger loving PvP. It gave me excitement and there was that drive to get better in order to kill more people. This was how it was with UO especially. I played UO off and on for about 7 years and no game since has given me that feeling. However, as someone previously posted, I don't have the time required to do PvP like that anymore. Games like Darkfall and Eve and UO (old UO) are too much of a time sink to log in to and just die to some guy just looking to ruin someones day. When I was playing UO, I was 13, so I had all the time in the world to get more stuff if I managed to lose it all. I now have a 9-5 job, an hour commute each way, which leaves me very little gaming time. I want to come home, talk to some friends and kill some NPC monsters without having to worry about people. I'd rather be immersed in a story than just running around ganking people all day. When I was younger, which I assume you are by your post, I felt the same way. I didn't understand the "blues" (care bears) in UO who would always run from a fight, or would have to be in large groups to compete. However, I get it now. They were most likely just busy during the day and just wanted to not waste what little time they had trying to get their stuff back. It all just comes down to personal preference and those preferences change over time. There are so many MMOs now, why are you bitching about this anyway? Just go play one that you find fun, and I will play one I find fun. Everyone is happy.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I will say I find it amazing that they locked my satirical thread about this one, but have yet to lock this most obvious troll thread. This site's moderation is as always quite stellar.
I'm truly sorry that is all you've gotten from this thread. For me it's been very informative. I know understand, empathize with the majority of posters here. Developers can do better.
I'm glad you understand better now, bc.
@SnarlingWolf, I am not surprised at all. The Mod said it was a duplicate thread, which in all actuality it was, just presented in the opposite way that this thread was. I did enjoy the presentation, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I like pvp, I really do, I just like pvp on my terms, when I feel like it. I like to just run around and harvest if thats how I feel, fish, craft, explore, or just do some quests. I dont like constantly having to look over my shoulder when I do all those things
It's not like you die IRL. It's a game sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Is it because -
You lose a lot?
You can't get better?
It's scary?
To much adrenalin?
It makes you angry?
PvP'rs are mean?
Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, this is what I ask myself when I hear someone say "I wish there was no pvp"
I mean to me PVP is the pinnacle off multiplayer gaming. You test your skills against mine. We use what we found in the world and see if it works.
Why, please tell me. Maybe developers have done studies and stuff, but I haven't, I really don't get it.
Update - Top reasons
Lack of time
Mean player/ Nasty attitudes
Not a competitive person
OBSERVATION - Every scenario given by those against PvP involves being the person that gets killed. Check it out for yourself.
There's some really good stuff in here Thank you to those who are giving their time.
edit- they red text is not meant to demean. It's an observation, a true observation. If we reach the heart of the problem maybe it can be fixed. I made the observation text smaller and changed it back to white from red, for sake of civility.
Underlying Issue -The main cause of resentment seems to be bad game designs, with no risk of punishment for the griefer. In the scenarios given people are getting killed/camped with no recourse, and the camper has no fear of punishment. Who would want that? Come on devs you can do better!
OP's pvp frame of mind can't even sort through the responses properly to summarize people's responses. Those are not the top reasons...
It's actually pretty simple: In a PKer's mind the game and the game goal is to kill other players. For those who "hate pvp" their game goal is to work their character: do quests, harvest, travel, explore, etc. For them it's not fun and it's a game breaker if instead of playing the game as they want they are instead harrassed ad infinitum by players wanting to kill them. Players want to choose what class to play, not be forced into choosing the one that's best suited for pvp. They want to be able to enjoy the content without having to wait for a bunch of friends to be online to escort them everywhere (or maybe they don't have in-game friends yet). It's just that open pvp inevitably makes the whole game about pvp and is not about the core gameplay anymore.
If you look into the real life and mankind history, you will see that "fair" fights and conflicts are a very very rare thing. The people struggles are more about political, diplomacy, technology, tactics and opportunism than skill in single fights.
So? We are playing games, and if players think "fair" fights are more fun ... that is what the devs should give them.
I don't see i can throw a fireball in in "real life and mankind history" either. May be we should take that out too. /sarcasm off.
Just replace [PVP] in the title with, oh, [Asparagus].
And you probably won't feel very inclined to either defend or attack.
Unless your family's income is an asparagus farm, anyway. Or you've Vegan, I suppose.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by lizardbones There are some flaws in the premise of this thread, and this is one of them. The number of people who "just don't like PvP" is a small number of people. The majority of people do like PvP, as evidenced by the popularity of PvP games, and MMORPGs that include some form of PvP, which is pretty much all of them.
No way. You can't use games with PvP areas to support the claim that most people like PvP. You have to look at PvP-only servers. Everquest quickly passed UO largely because PvP was not required. Everyone could chose PvP or PvE and 95% chose the latter.
When EQ launched progression servers in 2006, someone started a guild for PvP players. They made a lot of noise, acted like asshats, and disbanded two weeks later. In 1999, I tried to get some EQ friends to play on Rallos Zek, and no one would.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by free2play Nobody hates PvP. People don't like forced PvP. It's a shoddy way to throttle weak PvE content. Having to stop and entertain some jughead when all you logged in to do was chop some trees or farm some hides.
Agreed, I dont hate it but I dont want it in games I play so no problem, I never play games where you have to pvp,unless those games are pure pvp like counter strike.
Well for me It isnt like I hate pvp, on the contrary. I like organized pvp...pvp where I control when and how I want to do it. Owpvp is just a breeding ground ( more often than not ) for griefers, corpse campers, and bullys. If it is flagged pvp and in a controlled enviroment it is fun and adrenaline filled. Warfronts, battlegeounds whatever is the best way to do pvp, imo. Allow those who love pvp to have it and allow others who could give it take it the same respect for gameplay. I mean we need to cater to both types of players so a game can maximize its population . Just my 2 cents
I like pvp, but only when I choose to pvp, like in daoc. That was really the only pvp I ever enjoyed for a long period of time. I could pve whenever I want, craft, roam around, but if I wanted to kill the enemy, take a keep, defend my realm, I could do that.
FFA? no way. I wouldn't even bother. I don't like pvp enough to always be forced to pvp. Heck, even CU that is primarily a pvp game doesn't force you to always pvp.
Now, games with pvp servers with just open world pvp and not the ffa pvp servers other games had, are ok to me, but are losing its appeal to me. Take WoW for example. I started on a pvp server there. It was nice having some open world pvp every now and then, but if I was out questing, working on faction and didn't want to be bothered, it was a pain in the ass being attacked. Win or lose. As a low level, totally sucked getting ganked repeatedly by a high level.
My most annoying time was when I was winning. I was out gathering mats, a guy jumps me, I destroy him. I'm like idiot, bothering me, but cool, took care of him quick. Guess what, he comes back and I kill him again. He KEPT COMING BACK! I killed him over 10 times. I actually fled because I was tired of him harassing me by making me kill him all the time, when all I wanted to do was gather some mats.
Just give me some frontier, faction based pvp, hopefully 3+ factions, with added skills from pvp, that I can choose when to do and I'm a happy camper. Basically merge EQ1 and Daoc lol. I know Mythic tried that with ToA, but it was poorly done and really needs to be built from the ground up, so it just ended up ruining everything. The MLs are super easy to get today, but I still don't like how it changed the gameplay.
Sorry if this is a long response, but I wanted to try and cover as much as I could. Apologies in advance.
Yes. Yes it is a big deal. Some people enjoy PvP, some of us just don't. You may feel that is "not an answer" but it is. The same as how people can say "I don't like crafting" or "I don't like dungeons". They are valid answers even if you don't like them. If however your point is more you want people to explain the myriad of reasons they don’t like it, here is a take using only my own experience and the experience of my group of friends when we discussed it as we have many times.
As the one chap tried explaining to you is that simply put, if he wants to gather things, or craft, or quest or well, do whatever, you coming along and killing him is an interruption of the experience he wishes to have. Maybe he/she logs on and has only an hour or two to play before dealing with putting kids to bed or doing their normal chores. If they spend a portion of that hour, ANY portion of that hour, being killed and trying to avoid people whose only goal is to kill other players, their experience is diminished. People log into games for various reasons, and when people are forced to be targets simply by conducting playing the game their way it kind of sucks.
I know I am often on a limited schedule. Their is absolutely nothing fun for me about having to try unsuccessfully to harvest or quest and constantly being killed by other players. Call me a care bear if you wish, but frankly that is what I like. I have been RP gaming for nearly 40 years and the games I always enjoyed the most were the ones that were about the quest. The ones where I could join my friends and play or simple immerse myself in a pixelated world for a while and unwind from the stress of the day. Having someone come along and ruin that is lame.
"You win some you lose some" may be true, but it just is not the way some of us like to play. To us, we enjoy the story and the PVE element. Random killing by other players simply because "they can" does nothing to further our personal goals. Also, and this goes very much in line with what some folks were saying about not liking to be forced into PvP, sometimes we just want to do our own thing. You get joy from killing other players. There are tons of folks out there like you and I think, having parts of the game dedicated to that is a sound strategy. But just as that is what you enjoy, you have to understand some of us simply don't. Some people like certain movies, some don't. Same principle applies. Having the players who want that type of experience allowed to have their own way to do so is awesome. Having this forced upon we who are uninterested, simply put, sucks. I am a big opponent to when games set up a scenario whereby someone is forced to put themselves in situations they don't want to be in simply to get by. Like for instance games that put all the rare resources or such in a PvP area? I generally either don’t bother or quit quickly. Recently I had this experience with Fallen Earth. EVERY time I went to certain areas to harvest there were players who did nothing but sit there waiting to kill people who obviously did not want to be there in the first place? That element of forcing people is in my opinion poor game design. Sure they may be another node right around the corner but you make two incorrect assumptions: 1) The player who killed you the first time won't follow (hint, they usually do) and 2) There are no other players waiting behind door number 2 to kill you all over again. If you truly could "go about your business" after taking the initial lumps it wouldn't be as bad, but I have spent entire evenings accomplishing nothing as bored max level toons camped a much lower level area.
I do enjoy PvP occasionally in a structured environment. Also, I remember back in the days of SWG when I found it quite fun. You could flag for PvP, have some grand battles, and then when you were bored of it you could stop. The moment I am placed in a position where I no longer have choice, I get aggravated. After all, for some of us, free time is at a premium. I want to choose how to spend that free time. I do not want some other player who decides his source of fun is killing me, to be able to make that decision as to how my free time is spent. If killing others is what you want to do? There should be places set aside solely for that. The true PVE'ers should never *need* to go there. And before anyone says "you never need to!" Yes. Yes you do. If the area is the only one in game with the resources you need for crafting or has quests you need to run then you have no choice. When game developers make a conscious decision to do this it generally makes me pass on the game.
Another issue with this type of PvP, before moving on, is that most of the time it is not some fun and epic confrontation. It is not some challenging encounter or awesome duel. Most of the time, pure and simple, from my observations it is a ganking. Of all the times I have been attacked in a pvp zone or randomly out in the world in a game it has NEVER been from someone my level or below. Never. Usually it is someone I cannot even /con because they are so far above me and I am instantly killed. That experience is simply not fun. The fly that gets hit with the flyswatter does not find the experience enjoyable. I remember playing WoW and rolling on a pvp server since my friends urged me to do so. I was hesitant but decided to give it a shot. I'd played horde for a while on a pve server so I tried alliance to see how the other half lives. At level 20 something I scrapped the character and moved to a pve server. Why? Well because here we are in a quest zone, where I KNOW a horde player really has no legit reason to be in and I keep getting killed. Not once. Not twice. Countless times. I wasted hours trying to accomplish what should have taken 10 minutes. The attackers? I couldn't tell you their levels since it only appeared as "???".
I don't honestly think anyone who gets indiscriminately stomped repeatedly in a situation they have no hope of outrunning let alone winning against finds it fun. Some people say "But it's just a game!" usually those people have not had the same experience.
As I did mention I enjoy structured PvP to an extent. I will say I have noticed a very disturbing trend in recent years where people take PvP WAY too seriously and that is a turn off. I mean, if you want the arenas to thrive, alienating newcomers is simply not the way to do it. Telling people "You suck!" when they mess up, complaining it is the worst team ever or refusing to help people learn the ropes is counterproductive to the PvP environment you wish to create. Unfortunately, what often happens is the areas become like the World Series, people get ridiculously serious and the casuals leave. Then the PVPers complain the arenas are empty and seek to hunt down people out trying to do other things. It is something of a vicious cycle. Yes I have been the guy in the arena that sucks. I have also been the guy in the arena in the top 3. It totally depends. The fact however is people acting like jerks makes me not want to bother to do it, bother to try to get better, or have any desire to be around those people.
... but I can tell right away from the OP's post that he won't be capable of listening and/or accepting many of the reasons why players do not like pvp. The very fact not one thing in his list includes anything other than options similar to "A player doesn't like being killed" tells me additional concepts are beyond his understanding.
What I am talking about is the word "restraint". If you can't do it and understand the many, MANY reasons behind what contributes towards the concept of "restraint" then you will never understand why pvp can evolve beyond "red = dead". Those same people are the ones who stare blankly at you and can provide no answer when asked, "What is the difference between FPS pvp and RPG pvp?". If someone does reply yet the first words out of their mouth is talk of system mechanics ... it will forever be a lost cause.
Originally posted by Arclan Originally posted by lizardbones There are some flaws in the premise of this thread, and this is one of them. The number of people who "just don't like PvP" is a small number of people. The majority of people do like PvP, as evidenced by the popularity of PvP games, and MMORPGs that include some form of PvP, which is pretty much all of them.
No way. You can't use games with PvP areas to support the claim that most people like PvP. You have to look at PvP-only servers. Everquest quickly passed UO largely because PvP was not required. Everyone could chose PvP or PvE and 95% chose the latter.
When EQ launched progression servers in 2006, someone started a guild for PvP players. They made a lot of noise, acted like asshats, and disbanded two weeks later. In 1999, I tried to get some EQ friends to play on Rallos Zek, and no one would.
Well, obviously not everyone likes PvP. I mean, there's always someone who just doesn't like something, even if it's just a few people.
Now, it's not really possible to say how many people just don't like PvP. However, there are millions of people playing games dedicated to nothing but PvP. More people than play MMORPGs. The idea that most people do not like PvP is not supportable.
The idea that most people do not want PvP in their MMORPGs is not supportable either, because nearly every MMORPG has PvP in some form or another. Nearly half of WoW's servers are PvP servers*. Even in games like SWToR or Rift where the number of PvP servers is minimal, PvP exists in the form of Battlegrounds and PvP zones.
The OP's premise, that people hate PvP in general isn't supportable, and I don't think it's an accurate representation of players. A much better question would be why players don't like always on PvP, and instead prefer "flagging" or "instanced" PvP.
* There are 4 more PvE servers than PvP servers.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by swedago Always liked PvP.. Just never liked the community it attracted =P
^Exactly
If it were about large scale battles where your individual efforts mattered and you got something to show for it...then boast. But I have yet to see the game that it matters what you do in PvP. There's always the cookie cutter equivalent of you. Your deeds are buried by gear.
"The idea that most people do not want PvP in their MMORPGs is not supportable either, because nearly every MMORPG has PvP in some form or another. Nearly half of WoW's servers are PvP servers*. Even in games like SWToR or Rift where the number of PvP servers is minimal, PvP exists in the form of Battlegrounds and PvP zones."
Sorry man but that in and of itself is an unsupportable argument :P
Just because MMOs HAVE PvP does not mean the majority of people like it . It just means that the developers have decided on it's inclusion. It *might* be that the majority of people like it but other possibilities exist such as 1) People who do like PvP are the most vocal. Perhaps even a vocal minority. 2) Some game developers get lazy on content so what do they do? Cram in PvP. VERY little work on their end relatively speaking and then it's up to the players to "entertain themselves" by killing each other. 3) The people developing the game love PvP and therefore make it a focal point.
Frankly, the list of possibilities is endless.
The argument is like saying most people want anchovies on their pizza, since most pizza places have anchovies on the menu.
That said, I do think if you broke it down by the numbers more people like pvp than there are people who generally hate it. I know I don't hate it, I just find it makes up a very small part of the reason I enjoy MMOs. Also, the prevailing attitude of most of the people on this thread seems to be "yeah PvP CAN be fun, but we'd like to decide when to do it".
Originally posted by Splittooth "The idea that most people do not want PvP in their MMORPGs is not supportable either, because nearly every MMORPG has PvP in some form or another. Nearly half of WoW's servers are PvP servers*. Even in games like SWToR or Rift where the number of PvP servers is minimal, PvP exists in the form of Battlegrounds and PvP zones." Sorry man but that in and of itself is an unsupportable argument :PJust because MMOs HAVE PvP does not mean the majority of people like it . It just means that the developers have decided on it's inclusion. It *might* be that the majority of people like it but other possibilities exist such as 1) People who do like PvP are the most vocal. Perhaps even a vocal minority. 2) Some game developers get lazy on content so what do they do? Cram in PvP. VERY little work on their end relatively speaking and then it's up to the players to "entertain themselves" by killing each other. 3) The people developing the game love PvP and therefore make it a focal point.Frankly, the list of possibilities is endless. The argument is like saying most people want anchovies on their pizza, since most pizza places have anchovies on the menu.That said, I do think if you broke it down by the numbers more people like pvp than there are people who generally hate it. I know I don't hate it, I just find it makes up a very small part of the reason I enjoy MMOs. Also, the prevailing attitude of most of the people on this thread seems to be "yeah PvP CAN be fun, but we'd like to decide when to do it".
Developers aren't just putting PvP on the menu as an option and then drop shipping it to players, they having to spend the time and resources on putting it in the game, and then spend the time and resources to balance the skills periodically based on player input. But, you're right, that doesn't actually prove anything without looking at the number of players participating in PvP on a regular basis.
However, we can limit our scope to people on this site by looking at a poll on this site concerning PvP.
Title: Which is more important in an MMO, PvE or PvP? Opened: 02/19/2009 Respondents: 15,471 Results: PvP - 5.7% PvE - 14.8% PvP focus with a little PvE - 10.5% PvE focus with a little PvP - 34.8% Equal Parts PvE and PvP - 34.2%
While it's easy to see that PvE is a more important aspect of game design to people on this site, very few of the people would actually exclude PvP as a consideration in game design.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
While it's easy to see that PvE is a more important aspect of game design to people on this site, very few of the people would actually exclude PvP as a consideration in game design.
Nor would I! I was just trying to keep us focusing on sound reasoning. I think the numbers you present there support the argument many of us are making. PvP is something people like but most people don't like being "forced" to do it.
Originally posted by Splittooth Originally posted by lizardbones
While it's easy to see that PvE is a more important aspect of game design to people on this site, very few of the people would actually exclude PvP as a consideration in game design.Nor would I! I was just trying to keep us focusing on sound reasoning. I think the numbers you present there support the argument many of us are making. PvP is something people like but most people don't like being "forced" to do it.
That's pretty much what I'd conclude as well. To borrow what you said earlier, people prefer to have PvP on the menu, they just don't always want to order it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
None of the above. Depends on the situation really. I'll just list a few examples or something.
Scenario 1: Open World PvP
I generally don't like open world PvP in a primarily PvE game. Why? Well, because it's horribly balanced and distracts from what I want to do. Let's say that I just want to log in, do a couple quests and be done for the day. Suddenly my plans are all messed up because of PvP. Pretend that I go out of my way to kill some guy and then continue questing as usual. The guy is likely to either harass me in private chat or try to attack me again. The chance of it turning into harassment increases with every failed attempt at killing me. Who knows, he might even get upset enough to bring along some high level friends.
Now I'm out of time and in a sour mood because some random guy was screaming at me for 30 minutes straight. It's a completely different story if the game is primarily based around PvP though. Generally people aren't such cry babies and are relatively good sports about the whole thing. A good example of this would be Warhammer Online.
Scenario 2: Arena based PvP
It's usually not rewarding enough. I'll participate if there are some nice rewards but I don't play MMORPG's to be competitive. There are better games for that and they require far more skill. I'll download another game to get my rush and will pass on the circle running hotkey spam. Preferably something that doesn't have huge imbalances and any progression at all.
Scenario 3: Full loot games
They're all about who has more friends. Forget about personal skill and get a bunch of meat sacks that know how to operate a keyboard. Nobody likes getting raped without the possibility of victory. These games are only fun if you're in it for the thrill or are on the winning side.
Why are you so crazy about PvP in MMORPG's?
Do you like the adrenaline rush?
Why is it more fun than anything else?
Is it some way of validating your sense of self worth?
Do you enjoy the imbalance?
Why not play a game without progression for your competitive fix?
Comments
Has it been informative for you? Do you now understand there isn't a way to "fix it" and also understand that the majority will always be against open world forced... uh I mean "no way to opt out" (since people will focus only on the word "forced") PvP and therefore the currently solutions of doing PvP either through 1) an opt in opt out system(includes battleground systems) or 2) servers designated for PvP are the only ones that will exist and so there is no point trying to get major publishers to release their games as only open world "no opt out" PvP?
If you don't understand those things now then this hasn't been informative for you.
This guy hit it right on the head. Your opinion doesn't mean anything to me. Too bad you don't accept it. Your ability to not accept me liking or disliking something is irrelevant. If I like something, I like it; or vice versa. I don't need your "sign off" on whether that is valid or not.
To answer the OP question though. I have played text MUDs before even graphical MMOs like UO came out. So I have 18 years of MMO experience. I started out when I was younger loving PvP. It gave me excitement and there was that drive to get better in order to kill more people. This was how it was with UO especially. I played UO off and on for about 7 years and no game since has given me that feeling. However, as someone previously posted, I don't have the time required to do PvP like that anymore. Games like Darkfall and Eve and UO (old UO) are too much of a time sink to log in to and just die to some guy just looking to ruin someones day. When I was playing UO, I was 13, so I had all the time in the world to get more stuff if I managed to lose it all. I now have a 9-5 job, an hour commute each way, which leaves me very little gaming time. I want to come home, talk to some friends and kill some NPC monsters without having to worry about people. I'd rather be immersed in a story than just running around ganking people all day. When I was younger, which I assume you are by your post, I felt the same way. I didn't understand the "blues" (care bears) in UO who would always run from a fight, or would have to be in large groups to compete. However, I get it now. They were most likely just busy during the day and just wanted to not waste what little time they had trying to get their stuff back. It all just comes down to personal preference and those preferences change over time. There are so many MMOs now, why are you bitching about this anyway? Just go play one that you find fun, and I will play one I find fun. Everyone is happy.
@SnarlingWolf, I am not surprised at all. The Mod said it was a duplicate thread, which in all actuality it was, just presented in the opposite way that this thread was. I did enjoy the presentation, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I loved pvp but WoW style of pvp got really boring and just became a grind.
i basically lived for pvp in ulitima online because the death penalties were punishing that you feared death
I like pvp, I really do, I just like pvp on my terms, when I feel like it. I like to just run around and harvest if thats how I feel, fish, craft, explore, or just do some quests. I dont like constantly having to look over my shoulder when I do all those things
OP's pvp frame of mind can't even sort through the responses properly to summarize people's responses. Those are not the top reasons...
It's actually pretty simple: In a PKer's mind the game and the game goal is to kill other players. For those who "hate pvp" their game goal is to work their character: do quests, harvest, travel, explore, etc. For them it's not fun and it's a game breaker if instead of playing the game as they want they are instead harrassed ad infinitum by players wanting to kill them. Players want to choose what class to play, not be forced into choosing the one that's best suited for pvp. They want to be able to enjoy the content without having to wait for a bunch of friends to be online to escort them everywhere (or maybe they don't have in-game friends yet). It's just that open pvp inevitably makes the whole game about pvp and is not about the core gameplay anymore.
So? We are playing games, and if players think "fair" fights are more fun ... that is what the devs should give them.
I don't see i can throw a fireball in in "real life and mankind history" either. May be we should take that out too. /sarcasm off.
Just replace [PVP] in the title with, oh, [Asparagus].
And you probably won't feel very inclined to either defend or attack.
Unless your family's income is an asparagus farm, anyway. Or you've Vegan, I suppose.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No way. You can't use games with PvP areas to support the claim that most people like PvP. You have to look at PvP-only servers. Everquest quickly passed UO largely because PvP was not required. Everyone could chose PvP or PvE and 95% chose the latter.
When EQ launched progression servers in 2006, someone started a guild for PvP players. They made a lot of noise, acted like asshats, and disbanded two weeks later. In 1999, I tried to get some EQ friends to play on Rallos Zek, and no one would.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Agreed, I dont hate it but I dont want it in games I play so no problem, I never play games where you have to pvp,unless those games are pure pvp like counter strike.
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I like pvp, but only when I choose to pvp, like in daoc. That was really the only pvp I ever enjoyed for a long period of time. I could pve whenever I want, craft, roam around, but if I wanted to kill the enemy, take a keep, defend my realm, I could do that.
FFA? no way. I wouldn't even bother. I don't like pvp enough to always be forced to pvp. Heck, even CU that is primarily a pvp game doesn't force you to always pvp.
Now, games with pvp servers with just open world pvp and not the ffa pvp servers other games had, are ok to me, but are losing its appeal to me. Take WoW for example. I started on a pvp server there. It was nice having some open world pvp every now and then, but if I was out questing, working on faction and didn't want to be bothered, it was a pain in the ass being attacked. Win or lose. As a low level, totally sucked getting ganked repeatedly by a high level.
My most annoying time was when I was winning. I was out gathering mats, a guy jumps me, I destroy him. I'm like idiot, bothering me, but cool, took care of him quick. Guess what, he comes back and I kill him again. He KEPT COMING BACK! I killed him over 10 times. I actually fled because I was tired of him harassing me by making me kill him all the time, when all I wanted to do was gather some mats.
Just give me some frontier, faction based pvp, hopefully 3+ factions, with added skills from pvp, that I can choose when to do and I'm a happy camper. Basically merge EQ1 and Daoc lol. I know Mythic tried that with ToA, but it was poorly done and really needs to be built from the ground up, so it just ended up ruining everything. The MLs are super easy to get today, but I still don't like how it changed the gameplay.
Sorry if this is a long response, but I wanted to try and cover as much as I could. Apologies in advance.
Yes. Yes it is a big deal. Some people enjoy PvP, some of us just don't. You may feel that is "not an answer" but it is. The same as how people can say "I don't like crafting" or "I don't like dungeons". They are valid answers even if you don't like them. If however your point is more you want people to explain the myriad of reasons they don’t like it, here is a take using only my own experience and the experience of my group of friends when we discussed it as we have many times.
As the one chap tried explaining to you is that simply put, if he wants to gather things, or craft, or quest or well, do whatever, you coming along and killing him is an interruption of the experience he wishes to have. Maybe he/she logs on and has only an hour or two to play before dealing with putting kids to bed or doing their normal chores. If they spend a portion of that hour, ANY portion of that hour, being killed and trying to avoid people whose only goal is to kill other players, their experience is diminished. People log into games for various reasons, and when people are forced to be targets simply by conducting playing the game their way it kind of sucks.
I know I am often on a limited schedule. Their is absolutely nothing fun for me about having to try unsuccessfully to harvest or quest and constantly being killed by other players. Call me a care bear if you wish, but frankly that is what I like. I have been RP gaming for nearly 40 years and the games I always enjoyed the most were the ones that were about the quest. The ones where I could join my friends and play or simple immerse myself in a pixelated world for a while and unwind from the stress of the day. Having someone come along and ruin that is lame.
"You win some you lose some" may be true, but it just is not the way some of us like to play. To us, we enjoy the story and the PVE element. Random killing by other players simply because "they can" does nothing to further our personal goals. Also, and this goes very much in line with what some folks were saying about not liking to be forced into PvP, sometimes we just want to do our own thing. You get joy from killing other players. There are tons of folks out there like you and I think, having parts of the game dedicated to that is a sound strategy. But just as that is what you enjoy, you have to understand some of us simply don't. Some people like certain movies, some don't. Same principle applies. Having the players who want that type of experience allowed to have their own way to do so is awesome. Having this forced upon we who are uninterested, simply put, sucks. I am a big opponent to when games set up a scenario whereby someone is forced to put themselves in situations they don't want to be in simply to get by. Like for instance games that put all the rare resources or such in a PvP area? I generally either don’t bother or quit quickly. Recently I had this experience with Fallen Earth. EVERY time I went to certain areas to harvest there were players who did nothing but sit there waiting to kill people who obviously did not want to be there in the first place? That element of forcing people is in my opinion poor game design. Sure they may be another node right around the corner but you make two incorrect assumptions: 1) The player who killed you the first time won't follow (hint, they usually do) and 2) There are no other players waiting behind door number 2 to kill you all over again. If you truly could "go about your business" after taking the initial lumps it wouldn't be as bad, but I have spent entire evenings accomplishing nothing as bored max level toons camped a much lower level area.
I do enjoy PvP occasionally in a structured environment. Also, I remember back in the days of SWG when I found it quite fun. You could flag for PvP, have some grand battles, and then when you were bored of it you could stop. The moment I am placed in a position where I no longer have choice, I get aggravated. After all, for some of us, free time is at a premium. I want to choose how to spend that free time. I do not want some other player who decides his source of fun is killing me, to be able to make that decision as to how my free time is spent. If killing others is what you want to do? There should be places set aside solely for that. The true PVE'ers should never *need* to go there. And before anyone says "you never need to!" Yes. Yes you do. If the area is the only one in game with the resources you need for crafting or has quests you need to run then you have no choice. When game developers make a conscious decision to do this it generally makes me pass on the game.
Another issue with this type of PvP, before moving on, is that most of the time it is not some fun and epic confrontation. It is not some challenging encounter or awesome duel. Most of the time, pure and simple, from my observations it is a ganking. Of all the times I have been attacked in a pvp zone or randomly out in the world in a game it has NEVER been from someone my level or below. Never. Usually it is someone I cannot even /con because they are so far above me and I am instantly killed. That experience is simply not fun. The fly that gets hit with the flyswatter does not find the experience enjoyable. I remember playing WoW and rolling on a pvp server since my friends urged me to do so. I was hesitant but decided to give it a shot. I'd played horde for a while on a pve server so I tried alliance to see how the other half lives. At level 20 something I scrapped the character and moved to a pve server. Why? Well because here we are in a quest zone, where I KNOW a horde player really has no legit reason to be in and I keep getting killed. Not once. Not twice. Countless times. I wasted hours trying to accomplish what should have taken 10 minutes. The attackers? I couldn't tell you their levels since it only appeared as "???".
I don't honestly think anyone who gets indiscriminately stomped repeatedly in a situation they have no hope of outrunning let alone winning against finds it fun. Some people say "But it's just a game!" usually those people have not had the same experience.
As I did mention I enjoy structured PvP to an extent. I will say I have noticed a very disturbing trend in recent years where people take PvP WAY too seriously and that is a turn off. I mean, if you want the arenas to thrive, alienating newcomers is simply not the way to do it. Telling people "You suck!" when they mess up, complaining it is the worst team ever or refusing to help people learn the ropes is counterproductive to the PvP environment you wish to create. Unfortunately, what often happens is the areas become like the World Series, people get ridiculously serious and the casuals leave. Then the PVPers complain the arenas are empty and seek to hunt down people out trying to do other things. It is something of a vicious cycle. Yes I have been the guy in the arena that sucks. I have also been the guy in the arena in the top 3. It totally depends. The fact however is people acting like jerks makes me not want to bother to do it, bother to try to get better, or have any desire to be around those people.
First off ... I love pvp ...
... but I can tell right away from the OP's post that he won't be capable of listening and/or accepting many of the reasons why players do not like pvp. The very fact not one thing in his list includes anything other than options similar to "A player doesn't like being killed" tells me additional concepts are beyond his understanding.
What I am talking about is the word "restraint". If you can't do it and understand the many, MANY reasons behind what contributes towards the concept of "restraint" then you will never understand why pvp can evolve beyond "red = dead". Those same people are the ones who stare blankly at you and can provide no answer when asked, "What is the difference between FPS pvp and RPG pvp?". If someone does reply yet the first words out of their mouth is talk of system mechanics ... it will forever be a lost cause.
You stay sassy!
No one owes the OP an explanation. Apparently he already knows that some people don't like pvp.
Let it be a mystery to him till the end of his days.
No way. You can't use games with PvP areas to support the claim that most people like PvP. You have to look at PvP-only servers. Everquest quickly passed UO largely because PvP was not required. Everyone could chose PvP or PvE and 95% chose the latter.
When EQ launched progression servers in 2006, someone started a guild for PvP players. They made a lot of noise, acted like asshats, and disbanded two weeks later. In 1999, I tried to get some EQ friends to play on Rallos Zek, and no one would.
Well, obviously not everyone likes PvP. I mean, there's always someone who just doesn't like something, even if it's just a few people.
Now, it's not really possible to say how many people just don't like PvP. However, there are millions of people playing games dedicated to nothing but PvP. More people than play MMORPGs. The idea that most people do not like PvP is not supportable.
The idea that most people do not want PvP in their MMORPGs is not supportable either, because nearly every MMORPG has PvP in some form or another. Nearly half of WoW's servers are PvP servers*. Even in games like SWToR or Rift where the number of PvP servers is minimal, PvP exists in the form of Battlegrounds and PvP zones.
The OP's premise, that people hate PvP in general isn't supportable, and I don't think it's an accurate representation of players. A much better question would be why players don't like always on PvP, and instead prefer "flagging" or "instanced" PvP.
* There are 4 more PvE servers than PvP servers.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
^Exactly
If it were about large scale battles where your individual efforts mattered and you got something to show for it...then boast. But I have yet to see the game that it matters what you do in PvP. There's always the cookie cutter equivalent of you. Your deeds are buried by gear.
I doubt many people hate pvp.
Most of them just don't understand why they need to pvp when they want to pve.
It's like most guy like their girlfriend and wife. But they still want to have alone time to say play video game.
"The idea that most people do not want PvP in their MMORPGs is not supportable either, because nearly every MMORPG has PvP in some form or another. Nearly half of WoW's servers are PvP servers*. Even in games like SWToR or Rift where the number of PvP servers is minimal, PvP exists in the form of Battlegrounds and PvP zones."
Sorry man but that in and of itself is an unsupportable argument :P
Just because MMOs HAVE PvP does not mean the majority of people like it . It just means that the developers have decided on it's inclusion. It *might* be that the majority of people like it but other possibilities exist such as 1) People who do like PvP are the most vocal. Perhaps even a vocal minority. 2) Some game developers get lazy on content so what do they do? Cram in PvP. VERY little work on their end relatively speaking and then it's up to the players to "entertain themselves" by killing each other. 3) The people developing the game love PvP and therefore make it a focal point.
Frankly, the list of possibilities is endless.
The argument is like saying most people want anchovies on their pizza, since most pizza places have anchovies on the menu.
That said, I do think if you broke it down by the numbers more people like pvp than there are people who generally hate it. I know I don't hate it, I just find it makes up a very small part of the reason I enjoy MMOs. Also, the prevailing attitude of most of the people on this thread seems to be "yeah PvP CAN be fun, but we'd like to decide when to do it".
Developers aren't just putting PvP on the menu as an option and then drop shipping it to players, they having to spend the time and resources on putting it in the game, and then spend the time and resources to balance the skills periodically based on player input. But, you're right, that doesn't actually prove anything without looking at the number of players participating in PvP on a regular basis.
However, we can limit our scope to people on this site by looking at a poll on this site concerning PvP.
http://www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/polls is where you find all the polls.
Title: Which is more important in an MMO, PvE or PvP?
Opened: 02/19/2009
Respondents: 15,471
Results:
PvP - 5.7%
PvE - 14.8%
PvP focus with a little PvE - 10.5%
PvE focus with a little PvP - 34.8%
Equal Parts PvE and PvP - 34.2%
While it's easy to see that PvE is a more important aspect of game design to people on this site, very few of the people would actually exclude PvP as a consideration in game design.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Nor would I! I was just trying to keep us focusing on sound reasoning. I think the numbers you present there support the argument many of us are making. PvP is something people like but most people don't like being "forced" to do it.
Nor would I! I was just trying to keep us focusing on sound reasoning. I think the numbers you present there support the argument many of us are making. PvP is something people like but most people don't like being "forced" to do it.
That's pretty much what I'd conclude as well. To borrow what you said earlier, people prefer to have PvP on the menu, they just don't always want to order it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You lose a lot?
You can't get better?
It's scary?
To much adrenalin?
It makes you angry?
PvP'rs are mean?
None of the above. Depends on the situation really. I'll just list a few examples or something.
Scenario 1: Open World PvP
I generally don't like open world PvP in a primarily PvE game. Why? Well, because it's horribly balanced and distracts from what I want to do. Let's say that I just want to log in, do a couple quests and be done for the day. Suddenly my plans are all messed up because of PvP. Pretend that I go out of my way to kill some guy and then continue questing as usual. The guy is likely to either harass me in private chat or try to attack me again. The chance of it turning into harassment increases with every failed attempt at killing me. Who knows, he might even get upset enough to bring along some high level friends.
Now I'm out of time and in a sour mood because some random guy was screaming at me for 30 minutes straight. It's a completely different story if the game is primarily based around PvP though. Generally people aren't such cry babies and are relatively good sports about the whole thing. A good example of this would be Warhammer Online.
Scenario 2: Arena based PvP
It's usually not rewarding enough. I'll participate if there are some nice rewards but I don't play MMORPG's to be competitive. There are better games for that and they require far more skill. I'll download another game to get my rush and will pass on the circle running hotkey spam. Preferably something that doesn't have huge imbalances and any progression at all.
Scenario 3: Full loot games
They're all about who has more friends. Forget about personal skill and get a bunch of meat sacks that know how to operate a keyboard. Nobody likes getting raped without the possibility of victory. These games are only fun if you're in it for the thrill or are on the winning side.
Why are you so crazy about PvP in MMORPG's?
Do you like the adrenaline rush?
Why is it more fun than anything else?
Is it some way of validating your sense of self worth?
Do you enjoy the imbalance?
Why not play a game without progression for your competitive fix?