Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

What Makes Console MMO's "Dumbed Down"? (And other questions)

2

Comments

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Yamota

    They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

     

    A dumb teen grows up to be a dumb adult.

    An ignorant and inexperienced teen may one day grow up to be an educated and experienced adult. There is a large difference between someone that is dumb and someone that just doesn't know something

    My 18 y/o console playing son , told me recently that he prefers PC gaming to consoles. He never played PC's before this year. He finds PC games ( MMO's ) more complex and interesting as well as challenging, as well FPS. He seems to believe they speed of the game is better on PC as compared to Xbox 360.

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Anyone who thinks a remote is better the more buttons it has, is a moron. Same thing for complexity in games. Nothing says a console MMO cannot compete with a PC one and because all consoles are based on PC hardware anyway, any issues would be merely user interface-related or with the manufacturers those consoles (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo).

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Yamota

    They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

    Think there was a poll floating around saying that average age of PC gamers were mid to late twenties and console gamers mid to late teens. 

    Now there's a troll bait if I ever saw one.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Yamota

    They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

     

    A dumb teen grows up to be a dumb adult.

    An ignorant and inexperienced teen may one day grow up to be an educated and experienced adult. There is a large difference between someone that is dumb and someone that just doesn't know something

    Not sure what your point is. Are you arguing that an adult, in general, is not smarter than a teen, in general? Really?

    I guess you'd actually have to know what the difference between a smart person and an educated person was, before I could argue that with you.

    Intelligence has nothing to do with age. A dumb person is dumb because they're incapable of becoming less ignorant.  If that still doesn't help explain why I quoted your post and said what I said... I don't really need to say anything else.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Anyone who thinks a remote is better the more buttons it has, is a moron. Same thing for complexity in games. Nothing says a console MMO cannot compete with a PC one and because all consoles are based on PC hardware anyway, any issues would be merely user interface-related or with the manufacturers those consoles (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo).

    Really ? Have you tried to play KA-50 Black Shark ? Think that could be adapted to console ?

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Anyone who thinks a remote is better the more buttons it has, is a moron. Same thing for complexity in games. Nothing says a console MMO cannot compete with a PC one and because all consoles are based on PC hardware anyway, any issues would be merely user interface-related or with the manufacturers those consoles (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo).

    Really ? Have you tried to play KA-50 Black Shark ? Think that could be adapted to console ?

    Why the hell not?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    What console MMOs are even being discussed? My only experience with one was DCUO.  I wasn't too excited by it, although watching a few endgame boss videos it seems like endgame boss mechanic are pretty decent.

    DCUO's main failing seemed like they reduced the number of powers per character without increasing the depth and dynamicism of those powers.  Basically you want to aim for skills a bit more like League of Legends skills, where their correct use (including timing, positioning, aiming, and other factors) actually matters a lot regarding the effectiveness of the ability.

    That lack of depth wasn't really related to being on console though.  There are deep and shallow console games, just like PC games.  If DCUO was a shallow MMORPG, being released PC-only wouldn't have changed that.

    A good example of dynamic abilities from LOL is Blitzcrank, a robot who can launch his hand towards an enemy, and if it hits he drags them back to his location:

    • Normally (in an open field), landing the ability will drag them 925 units of distance out of position.
    • If you time a Flash after launching the grab, and aim it backwards, you can pull them even further (1325 units).
    • Or if you pull them across a wall, they're going to have a lot more than 1325 units to travel to get back into position.

    That depth is achieved with one fairly simple mechanic.

    The problem with "dumbed down" comments is they usually take things at face value.  It's a player making a false assumption that a simple rule means a shallow game.  But that's silly because Chess' rules fit on one piece of paper, and the players making these false assumptions certainly haven't explored all of Chess' game depth.  Simple rules sometimes create shallow games, but not always.

    The opposite situation also exists. Complex rules often lead to false assumptions that a game is deep.  But most of the time, complex rules result in an imbalanced game, which results in a shallower game.

    You do need a certain baseline complexity to achieve a certain amount of game depth, however many of the factors don't have to appear complex to players.  The Blitz grab has a fire speed, a range, a projectile width, and a pull speed, and these all factor into the overall depth of using the ability, but describing the ability (describing "the rule") to someone is super simple.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    Because a lot of PC gamers are elitist asshats who think anyone playing a console game is an idiot. I joke about the PC gamer master race, but some people actually believe it. They feel console gamers are beneath them, and anything dumbed down must have been done for them.

    image
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota

    They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

    Think there was a poll floating around saying that average age of PC gamers were mid to late twenties and console gamers mid to late teens. 

    Really? I don't know about you, but I swear I was better at video games when I was a kid lol. Now it's harder to figure out for me, I don't feel like sitting around figuring out a game for 8 hours I have a job! And kids growing up now with so much technology, it's amazing how quick they are to learn.

     

    That's not to say I don't still enjoy a more complex game. But when I was a kid/teenager I had a lot more time/patience for learning a new and complicated game. I played NexusTK and Meridian 59 when I was like 13.

    image
  • tommygunzIItommygunzII Roanoke, VAPosts: 321Member

    Seems like a veiled keyboard vs gamepad question, in that case for MMO's only

     

    I don't mind using mouse and keyboard when I have to but gamepads have a few advantages. Going from walk to run without hitting a button is nice. Being able to play in more than one position is the main reason for me. You can lay back, lean forward, or even walk around while playing. With a keyboard you are forced to sit in the same position all of the time. My PS3 controller needs no batteries either.

     

    Games like FFXI and FFXIV have brilliant configurations for managing hundreds of macros on the fly with the gamepad. FFXI had 120 assignments per page, with 10 pages total. Designed to be navigated very quickly with the gamepad. With that system I could play any MMO as efficient and easy if not easier than kb users. I would love to see more PC MMO developers support gamepads. 

     

    That's the only real difference I see between PC's and next gen consoles for MMO gaming. In 10 years alot if not most AAA MMO's will be on consoles anyway in my opinion. Like others have said, consoles recognize usb mouse and keyboard devices. If you want to keep it real.

     

    Edit: In FFXI users are given 20 Books with 10 macro palettes each. Each palette consists of 2 rows of 10 macros each.

    http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Macro

    4000 easy to navigate macros are more than anyone needs.

     

  • exwinexwin Oak Ridge, TNPosts: 221Member

    It's not so much that there can't be a full, rich, console mmo, it is just that the offerings thus far are marathons of button mashing. Until they make a deep one, that is going to be the perception.

    Dumbed down for consoles isn't the right way to say it. I think it would be closer to accurate to say streamlined for console's limited ability for user input. 

    Fallout and Elder Scrolls recent offerings didn't feel shallow or dumbed down for the console. It's possible, it (making full rich mmos for a console) just hasn't been done yet, and until they make one on the level and scope that pc users have come to expect, pc user prejudice against console mmos will continue.

  • SmoeySmoey CambridgePosts: 572Member Uncommon
    You can have up to 28 'keys' or 'buttons' on a controller if done correctly. That's more than enough for an MMO. Plus just attach a keyboard via USB.

    (\ /) ?
    ( . .)
    c('')('')

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    my2 cents..

     

         I think many consider consoles dumbed down cause you are unable to customize huge macro "I WIN" buttons.. In my opinion I liked EQ's original layout of 8? memorized spells for hot keying.. I dislike all these games now that have 2, 3 and more rows of hotkeys for immediate use.. Want to make combat more challenging? Easy, limit the number of immediate use functions.. If that means you have to sit and memorize that spell into a slot, so be it..  I wouldn't mind seeing console games going that same direction.. Sure they can have 30 abilities by max level, but make it so that only a limited number of them can be usable at any given time.. I always disliked the lazy macro win button, and wish that ability never existed..

  • deveilbladdeveilblad Saint-Constant, QCPosts: 177Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    I hear some saying controls are the issue, but a controller is essentially a handheld keyboard and mouse with less keys that would require more combinations.

     

    Bypass that comment if you don't like it, and instead,  answer,  how many skills should a player have access to in any single game?  How many skills and skill combinations are required so that the game isn't considered being dumbed down?

     

    As for Macros, I used to do macros in CoH and SWG and a few other games,  but, for SWG I used a recursive macro much of the time which allowed me to AFK, and while it did take more brainpower to do that, it definitely didn't make me feel like the gameplay was any "smarter".  It almost made me feel like I was tricking the game.

     

    Would adding the ability to Macro in a Console MMO change the Console MMO reputation?

     Your controller is like your keyboard? How'd you fit all ~101-102 buttons onto a hand held device?

    Go look at FFXIV's interface. You can bind something like 120+ skills to your controller and they are easy to use its a simple matter of muscle memory to know what to press to activate them... Just like on a keyboard.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    I think we've gotten a lot of good answers.  Primarily the idea that a Console MMO is "dumbed down" , from what I'm to understand,  has little to do with the actual game at all.

     

    I get a lot of people talking about the controller,  but the controller doesn't necessarily hinder gameplay, and it really is dependent on how it is used.  FFXI  and FFXIV have different control schemes, and that goes on to games like DCUO and Defiance.  Each game is different but they don't automatically become "dumbed down" simply due to a controller.

     

    Some people mentioned system hardware from earlier generations not being strong enough as a cause for a game to be considered "dumbed down"  but performance doesn't seem to hinder any gameplay aspects as far as complexity goes, and this won't be a factor with the new set of consoles.

     

    Axehilt seemed to be one of the few who mentioned actual game mechanics in terms of the possible cause,  but ended up comparing a current console MMO to a similar arena based PC MMO, each showing that in their own way, they have their own complexity.

     

    And on my last point, when I look at ESO coming out, as well as a number of other games,  but ESO specifically, I wonder why so many feel that, simply because the game will launch on multiple platforms that it will somehow get a treatment of being "dumbed down".

     

    I was actually expecting less level headed comments and more rash, outspoken remarks.  Especially since we've seen more Console MMO Articles from this site lately and at least one that I've read mentioned the possibility of this iteration of MMOs being "dumbed down".

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Apopka, FLPosts: 2,059Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    A good example of dynamic abilities from LOL is Blitzcrank, a robot who can launch his hand towards an enemy, and if it hits he drags them back to his location:

    • Normally (in an open field), landing the ability will drag them 925 units of distance out of position.
    • If you time a Flash after launching the grab, and aim it backwards, you can pull them even further (1325 units).
    • Or if you pull them across a wall, they're going to have a lot more than 1325 units to travel to get back into position.

    That depth is achieved with one fairly simple mechanic.

    Except they nerfed flash grabbing about 2 years ago.  You can't do it anymore.  :p

    image

    Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
    image

  • AviniAvini nr. brobyPosts: 9Member Uncommon

    I see the learning curve for a gaming pad is a lot higher then normal mouse and keyboard, and that is a big problem. There is also the problem with the mmo mouse you can get for computers, you have a lot of key options on the fly without stopping movement, and I can see some troubles when trying to access some of the buttons on a game pad to get that spell.

    For instance if you need to heal some one and don't want to use tab target and you need to run at the same time, that is where the mmo mouse shines and the controller seems abit hard to do the same thing.

    But again everything is possible, but why make things harder? 

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AIMonster
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    A good example of dynamic abilities from LOL is Blitzcrank, a robot who can launch his hand towards an enemy, and if it hits he drags them back to his location:

    • Normally (in an open field), landing the ability will drag them 925 units of distance out of position.
    • If you time a Flash after launching the grab, and aim it backwards, you can pull them even further (1325 units).
    • Or if you pull them across a wall, they're going to have a lot more than 1325 units to travel to get back into position.

    That depth is achieved with one fairly simple mechanic.

    Except they nerfed flash grabbing about 2 years ago.  You can't do it anymore.  :p

    You're missing the point. His argument stands whether you can do that anymore or not. League of Legends is filled with abilities, combos and mechanics similar to this one.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    I think it comes down to the hardware limitations. Games on pcs look better and you can do more things on a pc because of memory limits as well. Consoles are awesome though for several reasons. Costs less to upgrade, not as difficult to learn games on a controller and you get to play your game more comfortably on the couch. I think the developers see more of the difference between a pc and console compared to players because devs are the ones actually making the game. In all I still think it comes down to preference. Both are good platforms for gaming.
    30
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Kansas City, MOPosts: 460Member Uncommon

    In terms of gameplay they don't for the vast majority of MMOs and games period. Exception are genres like RTS.

    MMOs were generally dumbed down a long time ago anyway. The days of paying $15 a month for one or two uber complex sandbox MMOs are over.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    As the title says, a few simple answers are requested.  Why are Console MMO's considered to be "dumbed down" in comparison to the "superior" PC MMO?

     After you answer that,  answer me this - Will there ever be a time Console MMO's would be considered on par or greater than what PC MMOs can offer?  If not, why not,  if so,  how?

     And lastly,  Will there ever be a time that Mobile MMOs (MMO's for mobile devices) will take center stage the way Console MMO's have started to recently?

    Just because there aren't enough console MMOs. When there are, the spectrum will be as broad as any other genre.

    No one will think console RPG like Deus Ex is "dumbed down", and they played exactly the same as the PC version. I don't see why a console MMO needs to be dumbed down. And if they can make a deep RPG like Deus Ex which use a gamepad, there is no reason why they cannot do the same for MMOs.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    As the title says, a few simple answers are requested.  Why are Console MMO's considered to be "dumbed down" in comparison to the "superior" PC MMO?

     

    After you answer that,  answer me this - Will there ever be a time Console MMO's would be considered on par or greater than what PC MMOs can offer?  If not, why not,  if so,  how?

     

    And lastly,  Will there ever be a time that Mobile MMOs (MMO's for mobile devices) will take center stage the way Console MMO's have started to recently?

     I will say I think that console games used to be dumbed down, not because of the limitations of the hardware or the controls, but because companies thought they had to do so due to the audience.

     

    I don't feel that is correct and I think console gamers can handle a deep and rich game world just like PC users.

     

    The thing is, due to the control differences (unless you tell PC users they have to use a controller or tell console users they have to use a mouse and keyboard) I think you have to develop a game for the console or for the PC and not try to do the same game two different systems approach.

     

    Mobile MMOs will definitely take center stage at some point because everything will be mobile. The key will be the design by having something people can pop in and out of at 10-15 minute increments while they're waiting on a meeting, having a lunch break etc., and meaningfully accomplish something in the game.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    It's just old school thinking.

    Just about every MMO I've played in the past 10 years I've used the same keybind combination.

    WASD

    QE - 1,2,3,4,5

    Shift + QE12345

    Alt+ QE12345

    Left/Right mouse button

    Easily fit all of those on a controller with bumper/trigger modifiers

     

    So if you are talking about game complexity - that's funny because over the past 20 years I've been gaming, console games are getting more and more complex while PC games are getting more and more simplistic.

    Funny that eh?

    We're getting pretty close to an equilibrium with this new generation of consoles.

  • st3v3b0st3v3b0 Gainesville, FLPosts: 147Member Uncommon

    Why do people keep saying there are no hardware limitations anymore to consoles?  You are stuck with the same graphics card in a console which means future enhancements to the game (graphically) will never come through.  Numerous of MMO's over the years have improved and enhanced their graphics.  It will end up making the console version very stagnant in comparison to the PC.  Also with regards to the controls, there are limitations to using a controller versus a keyboard and mouse.  Most namely is chat functionality.  Not every MMO player intends or has the capability to play with voice chat, which would basically be required on a console to have any sort of communication.

    There is a reason why all of the MMO's to date on consoles have flopped.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon

    I don't think its "dumbed down" I think its just that they have to be different for consoles.  I mean look at console shooters vs original pc shooters.  Pc ones are so much more fast paced because the controls allow for that.  If you brought some PC RTS to a console, its going to end up being completely different in consoles.

     

    I think console mmos can be considered on par with their pc cousins.  The only time this would happen though if it is focused as a console mmo.  

     

    As for mobile MMOs?  I am totally looking forward to Fantasy Life.

    ''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
    ( o.o)
    (")(")
    **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**

2
Sign In or Register to comment.