Originally posted by Bladestrom The point is though in wow you can do nothing while you travel. In eve IF you enjoy what eve has to offer then you can do those activities whe you travel. It's a moot point though, fast travel would destroy eve (may e not other games). Btw I'm a pve player through and through, hate pvp
On any of my mounts I have total control of where I can travel (except for a couple PvP and fatigue zones); what I can do while traveling (no different than what can been done in EvE) and there's no "on grid" or "off grid" crap to deal with. I'm not pushed through a tube linearly to get from point A to point B, I travel as I prefer...and even the portals in WoW doesn't have this silly gate animation, either.
Plus, there's no 30 jumps needed to get from point A to point B. No need the game has instant travel on a 15min timer (not 24hrs).
There's a reason why WoW is the #1 MMO those travel nuisances don't exist.
It also doesen't have any real sense of space either, but I guess that or other things that derive from there isn't very important to you (or for the game itself). The world is nothing but an animated lobby where you queue up for whatever dungeon/battleground there is. What's the point of having a seamless or large world if you can quick quickjump to anywhere?
Also, iirc Runescape Maple story are the most played mmo in the world (with over 10x the amount of active accounts as wow). Clearly because 2d sidescrolling is the future of gaming.
Was referring to flying or worse flight points. This asside, eve travelling Brings life to everything in eve. This is simple though, if you don't like what eve has to offer then travelling in eve is not going to be any better.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom The point is though in wow you can do nothing while you travel. In eve IF you enjoy what eve has to offer then you can do those activities whe you travel. It's a moot point though, fast travel would destroy eve (may e not other games). Btw I'm a pve player through and through, hate pvp
On any of my mounts I have total control of where I can travel (except for a couple PvP and fatigue zones); what I can do while traveling (no different than what can been done in EvE) and there's no "on grid" or "off grid" crap to deal with. I'm not pushed through a tube linearly to get from point A to point B, I travel as I prefer...and even the portals in WoW doesn't have this silly gate animation, either.
Plus, there's no 30 jumps needed to get from point A to point B. No need the game has instant travel on a 15min timer (not 24hrs).
There's a reason why WoW is the #1 MMO those travel nuisances don't exist.
Except that those travel "nuisances" are part of the game play in EVE whereas in a game like WoW they would be genuine problems. Not everyone is going to like that style of game, but it is a legitimate style of play for those who enjoy it; this is obviously a niche point of view, and those who build and play EVE understand this. The system works in EVE because the game as a whole is built in such a way that travel is as much of the game as the combat at the end of travel; the bigger question of whether or not EVE as a whole works for an individual player or not is entirely separate. Trying to complain about a single system in EVE without looking at how it fits into the game as a whole just doesn't work. The fact that it can be done in other games is a big turn off to me because it means that those games lack the overall cohesiveness that games like EVE have; they may be entertaining enough for a while, but they lack the depth and longevity that EVE and a lot of the original MMOs provide.
Thats a very good point. Eve is almost certainly one of the most successfully sandboxes of all time. It succeeds because it is indeed greater than a sum of all its parts, it simulates a real living sophisticated market/universe with a sophisticated player base and real consumption.
A real market needs to add value to products, distance,danger and borders add value. PVP needs people to move in dangerous areas but pay a premium for the risk, Eve provides this, and so on and so forth. A Sandbox games requires great expertise and design skill to build and maintain.
A Sandbox represents the synergy produced from a living community, a modern themepark is a bunch of layers plastered on top of each other - with instant travel being nothing more than an annoying unrewarding 'thing' that is to be avoided.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Coming close to the 20th page of discussion on why the OP hates eve (i believe his only post in this whole trail)
The only thing anyone can agree that i can tell (and im included in the chain)
Eve is the Marmite of the MMO world, is there truthfully another game that garners such opposite stances. - Some might consider WoW but even then i would argue that a lot of WoW haters haven't even played the game, and the ones that have, only hate what it is has become
Eve, which is its the niche game it is, is for me clearly the Marmite champion of the MMO genre... anyone else got any further contenders
Originally posted by Bladestrom The point is though in wow you can do nothing while you travel. In eve IF you enjoy what eve has to offer then you can do those activities whe you travel. It's a moot point though, fast travel would destroy eve (may e not other games). Btw I'm a pve player through and through, hate pvp
On any of my mounts I have total control of where I can travel (except for a couple PvP and fatigue zones); what I can do while traveling (no different than what can been done in EvE) and there's no "on grid" or "off grid" crap to deal with. I'm not pushed through a tube linearly to get from point A to point B, I travel as I prefer...and even the portals in WoW doesn't have this silly gate animation, either.
Plus, there's no 30 jumps needed to get from point A to point B. No need the game has instant travel on a 15min timer (not 24hrs).
There's a reason why WoW is the #1 MMO those travel nuisances don't exist.
Except that those travel "nuisances" are part of the game play in EVE whereas in a game like WoW they would be genuine problems. Not everyone is going to like that style of game, but it is a legitimate style of play for those who enjoy it; this is obviously a niche point of view, and those who build and play EVE understand this. The system works in EVE because the game as a whole is built in such a way that travel is as much of the game as the combat at the end of travel; the bigger question of whether or not EVE as a whole works for an individual player or not is entirely separate. Trying to complain about a single system in EVE without looking at how it fits into the game as a whole just doesn't work. The fact that it can be done in other games is a big turn off to me because it means that those games lack the overall cohesiveness that games like EVE have; they may be entertaining enough for a while, but they lack the depth and longevity that EVE and a lot of the original MMOs provide.
Believe me if those jump clones got the 24hrs docked to 24mins, you bet all but the diehards wouldn't cry a tear over that "nerf".
That jump clones even exist shows a compromise in this myth that EvE is some hell camp (if it really is so rough and tough none would exist, and everything would be strictly controlled...no cheap PvP either).
But EvE is a PvP game so expect players needing to gank and quite freely (why fast travel doesn't exist in PvP games...no victims).
Believe me if those jump clones got the 24hrs docked to 24mins, you bet all but the diehards wouldn't cry a tear over that "nerf".
That jump clones even exist shows a compromise in this myth that EvE is some hell camp (if it really is so rough and tough none would exist, and everything would be strictly controlled...no cheap PvP either).
But EvE is a PvP game so expect players needing to gank and quite freely (why fast travel doesn't exist in PvP games...no victims).
Will never happen so it's a non-issue. The game is built around risk and reward; the whole idea is that things aren't super easy; CCP has stuck to their guns on that point so far, and I see no reason for them to change. Yes, the slower travel can suck at times, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate it, and the overall gameplay is better for that occasional minor inconvenience. The biggest gripe seems to be that the mitigation techniques aren't automatic, and that's seems more like a problem with EVE overall, not the travel system in particular.
Mitigation that requires intelligence is a core fundemental for eve, and it is to ccp's credit that they have the intelligence and foresight to understand the impact of trivialising content and removing the possibility for excellence or human error/lack of understanding.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
^^actually I'm pve through and throu and it's low sec that's is keeping my interest, moving into 2nd year of playing now- does need a bit more pve love that does not impact pvp side.
Now smuggling, that would be a wonderful things or both pve/pvp. C'mon ccp fix plx!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Believe me if those jump clones got the 24hrs docked to 24mins, you bet all but the diehards wouldn't cry a tear over that "nerf".
That jump clones even exist shows a compromise in this myth that EvE is some hell camp (if it really is so rough and tough none would exist, and everything would be strictly controlled...no cheap PvP either).
But EvE is a PvP game so expect players needing to gank and quite freely (why fast travel doesn't exist in PvP games...no victims).
Will never happen so it's a non-issue. The game is built around risk and reward; the whole idea is that things aren't super easy; CCP has stuck to their guns on that point so far, and I see no reason for them to change. Yes, the slower travel can suck at times, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate it, and the overall gameplay is better for that occasional minor inconvenience. The biggest gripe seems to be that the mitigation techniques aren't automatic, and that's seems more like a problem with EVE overall, not the travel system in particular.
Never say never.
Since Star Citizen is on the horizon, especially so.
Stiffer the competition, the lines once drawn get looked at again.
Believe me if those jump clones got the 24hrs docked to 24mins, you bet all but the diehards wouldn't cry a tear over that "nerf".
That jump clones even exist shows a compromise in this myth that EvE is some hell camp (if it really is so rough and tough none would exist, and everything would be strictly controlled...no cheap PvP either).
But EvE is a PvP game so expect players needing to gank and quite freely (why fast travel doesn't exist in PvP games...no victims).
Will never happen so it's a non-issue. The game is built around risk and reward; the whole idea is that things aren't super easy; CCP has stuck to their guns on that point so far, and I see no reason for them to change. Yes, the slower travel can suck at times, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate it, and the overall gameplay is better for that occasional minor inconvenience. The biggest gripe seems to be that the mitigation techniques aren't automatic, and that's seems more like a problem with EVE overall, not the travel system in particular.
Never say never.
Since Star Citizen is on the horizon, especially so.
Stiffer the competition, the lines once drawn get looked at again.
From what I've seen, Star Citizen is going to pull in a completely different crowd than what EVE pulls in, and will not be directly competing with EVE. I just don't see it having that much impact; one of the benefits of being a niche game is that directly competing with it is very hard and it's not nearly as likely to be impacted by the release of similar, but not quite the same, games. The majority of EVE players will continue to play EVE even if they also end up playing Star Citizen, and the majority of those who don't currently play EVE are going to continue to have limited impact on how EVE is developed. I'm sure CCP is watching the development of this and other space games, but I don't see them drastically changing their own product unless one of those other games is able to cast a really, really large shadow like WoW did with fantasy games.
Believe me if those jump clones got the 24hrs docked to 24mins, you bet all but the diehards wouldn't cry a tear over that "nerf".
You are wrong. There is some stiff opposition to even lowering the timer by a mere hour or two (which, btw, seems like a total nobrainer to me for various reasons).
The issue is power projection and, more generally, the actual effective size of the cluster.
Right now the superpowers in null sec are limited to how much space they can hold by their size and their ability to project power at various places at the same time frame. When a powerbloc heavily commits to a war at one region, it has to be prepared to defend it's home regions if need be - and that is currently not easy and requires either some serious player numbers or some serious time commitment - and both things are precious.
Example: very recently, a 30k sized coalition (CFC) attacked a similarly sized coalition (TEST + friends) in Fountain, committing heavily and starting a huge war. But now, CFC is getting harassed half a cluster away in their backyard in Vale by some rogue groups which have an axe to grind against them. CFC has to defend. If the jump timer was a mere 24 minutes, this would be a total non-issue, all the pilots would be able to hop around the cluster freely and the coalition would be able to always bring it's full force to a fight. But it cannot do that now and it must either withdraw a significant fighting force from the Fountain theatre or force it's pilots to spend a hour a day (at the very minimum) just travelling - and this drains their will to participate in combat operations very quickly.
There were many situations like this throughout EVE's history. It is made possible precisely because travel time is significant and thus geography matters.
ofc ^^. Some people asking for fast travel to somehow magically give lots of 'interesting' game time have no understanding of the complex model travel is a part off and the damage it would do. 2 Minutes asking themeselves the questions - what would fast travel do to pirating, pvp, the market 'should' provide the obvious answers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
ofc ^^. Some people asking for fast travel to somehow magically give lots of 'interesting' game time have no understanding of the complex model travel is a part off and the damage it would do. 2 Minutes asking themeselves the questions - what would fast travel do to pirating, pvp, the market 'should' provide the obvious answers.
Some people, even some self proclaimed game designers, think there is one optimal way to design every mechanic rather than understand that the design of any one component is dependent on the way it affects and interacts with the other components. To use an extreme as an example, instant travel to any spot on the map works wonderfully in UO. The same design would absolutely break a game like DAoC, Darkfall or EVE Online.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree, the journeyman (or worse) requires formulae, talent has vision. Considering the unique success of ccp you have to credit them with the latter - its a lesson for those that work in the industry.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I want to love it but just cant get past the lack of avatar. Sounds dumb because I respect and admire EVE SO much, but I just cant get past it.
I know what you mean, it drives me crazy that we can't do more with the avatar we have. They are perpetually stuck in a closet. I can't believe CCP can't think of anyway to incorporate them into the game. They say they will add avatar game play when there is something that will make avatar game play as viable as the ship game. That is just nonsense to me. I can think of half a dozen things that we could do with avatars that would add meaningful depth of game play to EVE - yet CCP can't come up with one?
No worries though...new games are just around the corner like Star Citizen, and Elite:Dangerous and then we can all tell CCP to take their piss poor attitude toward avatar game play and take a flying leap into a volcano.
I want to love it but just cant get past the lack of avatar. Sounds dumb because I respect and admire EVE SO much, but I just cant get past it.
I know what you mean, it drives me crazy that we can't do more with the avatar we have. They are perpetually stuck in a closet. I can't believe CCP can't think of anyway to incorporate them into the game. They say they will add avatar game play when there is something that will make avatar game play as viable as the ship game. That is just nonsense to me. I can think of half a dozen things that we could do with avatars that would add meaningful depth of game play to EVE - yet CCP can't come up with one?
No worries though...new games are just around the corner like Star Citizen, and Elite:Dangerous and then we can all tell CCP to take their piss poor attitude toward avatar game play and take a flying leap into a volcano.
Being able to use your toon to walk inside a station has never been what made EVE the great game it is, and it never will. It's like complaining about cars not having wings: they don't need them. Some people enjoy the game the way it always was intended to be, it's that simple.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
I want to love it but just cant get past the lack of avatar. Sounds dumb because I respect and admire EVE SO much, but I just cant get past it.
I know what you mean, it drives me crazy that we can't do more with the avatar we have. They are perpetually stuck in a closet. I can't believe CCP can't think of anyway to incorporate them into the game. They say they will add avatar game play when there is something that will make avatar game play as viable as the ship game. That is just nonsense to me. I can think of half a dozen things that we could do with avatars that would add meaningful depth of game play to EVE - yet CCP can't come up with one?
No worries though...new games are just around the corner like Star Citizen, and Elite:Dangerous and then we can all tell CCP to take their piss poor attitude toward avatar game play and take a flying leap into a volcano.
>implying character models have effect in gameplay for a game like this
If you really think that way then feel free to leave and/or play something else. you will definetly not be missed much
I think this thread really boils down to this so far
"i hate this game because it's different". I'm yet to see an objective justification for disliking the game that doesen't derive from your own preferences of how a game "should" be or be played ("lol, game needs fast travel"; "no avatar suxorz"), or that stem from the game's intentional design, or that comes from a player that actually has the smallest grasp of how the game works as whole. And that's why after 20 pages we're still arguing why things like fast travel or having a nice looking station with over 2500 rendered characters populating it are beyond pointless and unfeasible in this game.
Eve is an 'adapt or die' kind of game. Do you dislike it? Great, but keep in mind no amount of whining will get you anywhere around here or change anything (and that's why this game is the way it is after 10 years with a growing population every month). Claiming a game that doesen't go your way isn't 'good by default' is nothing but pointless drivel as an attempt to justify your own inability to adapt to it.
I agree with your points, especially fast travel for obvious reasons, but I think the backlash against players models was a bit misplaced, the real issue was the amount of resource applied to build the avatar stuff, and the disappointing initial results for that investment. As apposed to fast travel, avatars 'could' enhance core eve play - for e.g imagine leaders of corporations getting together in meeting rooms to discuss agreements, with screens in the background that the attendees can use to show maps and placements of resources and fleets etc, or walking through a corridor with a group of your team and coming across a group of your deadly enemies that you would normally shoot on sight, then the cat and mouse as you follow them etc etc. There is also the PVE side, PVE players have no long term goals, but having a way to show off wealth et has merit (no not glowing shoulder plates !)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I want to love it but just cant get past the lack of avatar. Sounds dumb because I respect and admire EVE SO much, but I just cant get past it.
I know what you mean, it drives me crazy that we can't do more with the avatar we have. They are perpetually stuck in a closet. I can't believe CCP can't think of anyway to incorporate them into the game. They say they will add avatar game play when there is something that will make avatar game play as viable as the ship game. That is just nonsense to me. I can think of half a dozen things that we could do with avatars that would add meaningful depth of game play to EVE - yet CCP can't come up with one?
No worries though...new games are just around the corner like Star Citizen, and Elite:Dangerous and then we can all tell CCP to take their piss poor attitude toward avatar game play and take a flying leap into a volcano.
>implying character models have effect in gameplay for a game like this
If you really think that way then feel free to leave and/or play something else. you will definetly not be missed much
I think this thread really boils down to this so far
"i hate this game because it's different". I'm yet to see an objective justification for disliking the game that doesen't derive from your own preferences of how a game "should" be or be played ("lol, game needs fast travel"; "no avatar suxorz"), or that stem from the game's intentional design, or that comes from a player that actually has the smallest grasp of how the game works as whole. And that's why after 20 pages we're still arguing why things like fast travel or having a nice looking station with over 2500 rendered characters populating it are beyond pointless and unfeasible in this game.
Eve is an 'adapt or die' kind of game. Do you dislike it? Great, but keep in mind no amount of whining will get you anywhere around here or change anything (and that's why this game is the way it is after 10 years with a growing population every month). Claiming a game that doesen't go your way isn't 'good by default' is nothing but pointless drivel as an attempt to justify your own inability to adapt to it.
I am not so sure that this will continue with Star Citizen and Elite just around the corner. This is the first time that EVE will face some stiff competition from other sci-fi games.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
i dont hate EVE. Ive never played EVE because its one of those games i dont like. I prefer a ground based game that expands its exploration and progression to space. The only space-only game ive ever enjoyed was Star Fox 64 (aside from the 8-16 bit shoot'em-up classics). BUt that doesnt mean its a bad game. It has its followers.
Originally posted by Bladestrom If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost. The overwhelming feedback on travel in games is to cut to the chase. Similar to how a movie would be terrible if it involved 30 minutes of uneventful travel, a game is going to be poor entertainment if a player's typical session involves a lot of non-gameplay.
It's not that I choose to do nothing. It's that I want gameplay, but the game forces non-gameplay on me.
Down time is the single most important thing to have if you want to build a massively social game.
The strenght of the community is related to player opportunities to socialize which is best done while they wait on a macguffin.
If everything was instant you wouldn't seek out entertainment from peers infact you'd view your peers as a hinderance or annoyance.
It's better to view a game mechanic as a hindrance or annoyance than to have an antisocial view of your peers while playing a massively social game.
Nonsense, absolutely nonsense. You build social games by having content which is best consumed with other people, not by forcing people to sit on their ass and watch some bar go down/up.
Downtime is the lazy way of making people to socialize, rather to actually have interesting content which requires a team to complete or interesting content which requires teams to compete (PvP).
What you describe above is a coworker and that is an important part of building a social game but friends are usually the people you take with you on break or lunch. The bonds between lunch mates is much stronger than bonds between coworkers. You need the down time to discover friendship otherwise everyone on your "friends list" will simply be fair weather friends walking the same linear content as you. You need more than fair weather friends if you want to build a strong game community that would riot over game related issues or travel to a fanfest that's held in ICELAND.
Ingame down time is the vital ingredient to turning players into friends.
Comments
It also doesen't have any real sense of space either, but I guess that or other things that derive from there isn't very important to you (or for the game itself). The world is nothing but an animated lobby where you queue up for whatever dungeon/battleground there is. What's the point of having a seamless or large world if you can quick quickjump to anywhere?
Also, iirc Runescape Maple story are the most played mmo in the world (with over 10x the amount of active accounts as wow). Clearly because 2d sidescrolling is the future of gaming.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Except that those travel "nuisances" are part of the game play in EVE whereas in a game like WoW they would be genuine problems. Not everyone is going to like that style of game, but it is a legitimate style of play for those who enjoy it; this is obviously a niche point of view, and those who build and play EVE understand this. The system works in EVE because the game as a whole is built in such a way that travel is as much of the game as the combat at the end of travel; the bigger question of whether or not EVE as a whole works for an individual player or not is entirely separate. Trying to complain about a single system in EVE without looking at how it fits into the game as a whole just doesn't work. The fact that it can be done in other games is a big turn off to me because it means that those games lack the overall cohesiveness that games like EVE have; they may be entertaining enough for a while, but they lack the depth and longevity that EVE and a lot of the original MMOs provide.
Thats a very good point. Eve is almost certainly one of the most successfully sandboxes of all time. It succeeds because it is indeed greater than a sum of all its parts, it simulates a real living sophisticated market/universe with a sophisticated player base and real consumption.
A real market needs to add value to products, distance,danger and borders add value. PVP needs people to move in dangerous areas but pay a premium for the risk, Eve provides this, and so on and so forth. A Sandbox games requires great expertise and design skill to build and maintain.
A Sandbox represents the synergy produced from a living community, a modern themepark is a bunch of layers plastered on top of each other - with instant travel being nothing more than an annoying unrewarding 'thing' that is to be avoided.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Coming close to the 20th page of discussion on why the OP hates eve (i believe his only post in this whole trail)
The only thing anyone can agree that i can tell (and im included in the chain)
Eve is the Marmite of the MMO world, is there truthfully another game that garners such opposite stances. - Some might consider WoW but even then i would argue that a lot of WoW haters haven't even played the game, and the ones that have, only hate what it is has become
Eve, which is its the niche game it is, is for me clearly the Marmite champion of the MMO genre... anyone else got any further contenders
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Believe me if those jump clones got the 24hrs docked to 24mins, you bet all but the diehards wouldn't cry a tear over that "nerf".
That jump clones even exist shows a compromise in this myth that EvE is some hell camp (if it really is so rough and tough none would exist, and everything would be strictly controlled...no cheap PvP either).
But EvE is a PvP game so expect players needing to gank and quite freely (why fast travel doesn't exist in PvP games...no victims).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Will never happen so it's a non-issue. The game is built around risk and reward; the whole idea is that things aren't super easy; CCP has stuck to their guns on that point so far, and I see no reason for them to change. Yes, the slower travel can suck at times, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate it, and the overall gameplay is better for that occasional minor inconvenience. The biggest gripe seems to be that the mitigation techniques aren't automatic, and that's seems more like a problem with EVE overall, not the travel system in particular.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
If you play EvE as a PvE game, you're going to have a bad time. The game by itself is "meh".
But as an interactive player experience, there's no comparison.
If you want to love EvE, you gotta at least go Low Security or even Zero Security space.
Now smuggling, that would be a wonderful things or both pve/pvp. C'mon ccp fix plx!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Never say never.
Since Star Citizen is on the horizon, especially so.
Stiffer the competition, the lines once drawn get looked at again.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
From what I've seen, Star Citizen is going to pull in a completely different crowd than what EVE pulls in, and will not be directly competing with EVE. I just don't see it having that much impact; one of the benefits of being a niche game is that directly competing with it is very hard and it's not nearly as likely to be impacted by the release of similar, but not quite the same, games. The majority of EVE players will continue to play EVE even if they also end up playing Star Citizen, and the majority of those who don't currently play EVE are going to continue to have limited impact on how EVE is developed. I'm sure CCP is watching the development of this and other space games, but I don't see them drastically changing their own product unless one of those other games is able to cast a really, really large shadow like WoW did with fantasy games.
You are wrong. There is some stiff opposition to even lowering the timer by a mere hour or two (which, btw, seems like a total nobrainer to me for various reasons).
The issue is power projection and, more generally, the actual effective size of the cluster.
Right now the superpowers in null sec are limited to how much space they can hold by their size and their ability to project power at various places at the same time frame. When a powerbloc heavily commits to a war at one region, it has to be prepared to defend it's home regions if need be - and that is currently not easy and requires either some serious player numbers or some serious time commitment - and both things are precious.
Example: very recently, a 30k sized coalition (CFC) attacked a similarly sized coalition (TEST + friends) in Fountain, committing heavily and starting a huge war. But now, CFC is getting harassed half a cluster away in their backyard in Vale by some rogue groups which have an axe to grind against them. CFC has to defend. If the jump timer was a mere 24 minutes, this would be a total non-issue, all the pilots would be able to hop around the cluster freely and the coalition would be able to always bring it's full force to a fight. But it cannot do that now and it must either withdraw a significant fighting force from the Fountain theatre or force it's pilots to spend a hour a day (at the very minimum) just travelling - and this drains their will to participate in combat operations very quickly.
There were many situations like this throughout EVE's history. It is made possible precisely because travel time is significant and thus geography matters.
ofc ^^. Some people asking for fast travel to somehow magically give lots of 'interesting' game time have no understanding of the complex model travel is a part off and the damage it would do. 2 Minutes asking themeselves the questions - what would fast travel do to pirating, pvp, the market 'should' provide the obvious answers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Some people, even some self proclaimed game designers, think there is one optimal way to design every mechanic rather than understand that the design of any one component is dependent on the way it affects and interacts with the other components. To use an extreme as an example, instant travel to any spot on the map works wonderfully in UO. The same design would absolutely break a game like DAoC, Darkfall or EVE Online.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I know what you mean, it drives me crazy that we can't do more with the avatar we have. They are perpetually stuck in a closet. I can't believe CCP can't think of anyway to incorporate them into the game. They say they will add avatar game play when there is something that will make avatar game play as viable as the ship game. That is just nonsense to me. I can think of half a dozen things that we could do with avatars that would add meaningful depth of game play to EVE - yet CCP can't come up with one?
No worries though...new games are just around the corner like Star Citizen, and Elite:Dangerous and then we can all tell CCP to take their piss poor attitude toward avatar game play and take a flying leap into a volcano.
Being able to use your toon to walk inside a station has never been what made EVE the great game it is, and it never will. It's like complaining about cars not having wings: they don't need them. Some people enjoy the game the way it always was intended to be, it's that simple.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
>implying character models have effect in gameplay for a game like this
If you really think that way then feel free to leave and/or play something else. you will definetly not be missed much
I think this thread really boils down to this so far
"i hate this game because it's different". I'm yet to see an objective justification for disliking the game that doesen't derive from your own preferences of how a game "should" be or be played ("lol, game needs fast travel"; "no avatar suxorz"), or that stem from the game's intentional design, or that comes from a player that actually has the smallest grasp of how the game works as whole. And that's why after 20 pages we're still arguing why things like fast travel or having a nice looking station with over 2500 rendered characters populating it are beyond pointless and unfeasible in this game.
Eve is an 'adapt or die' kind of game. Do you dislike it? Great, but keep in mind no amount of whining will get you anywhere around here or change anything (and that's why this game is the way it is after 10 years with a growing population every month). Claiming a game that doesen't go your way isn't 'good by default' is nothing but pointless drivel as an attempt to justify your own inability to adapt to it.
I agree with your points, especially fast travel for obvious reasons, but I think the backlash against players models was a bit misplaced, the real issue was the amount of resource applied to build the avatar stuff, and the disappointing initial results for that investment. As apposed to fast travel, avatars 'could' enhance core eve play - for e.g imagine leaders of corporations getting together in meeting rooms to discuss agreements, with screens in the background that the attendees can use to show maps and placements of resources and fleets etc, or walking through a corridor with a group of your team and coming across a group of your deadly enemies that you would normally shoot on sight, then the cat and mouse as you follow them etc etc. There is also the PVE side, PVE players have no long term goals, but having a way to show off wealth et has merit (no not glowing shoulder plates !)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I am not so sure that this will continue with Star Citizen and Elite just around the corner. This is the first time that EVE will face some stiff competition from other sci-fi games.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
What you describe above is a coworker and that is an important part of building a social game but friends are usually the people you take with you on break or lunch. The bonds between lunch mates is much stronger than bonds between coworkers. You need the down time to discover friendship otherwise everyone on your "friends list" will simply be fair weather friends walking the same linear content as you. You need more than fair weather friends if you want to build a strong game community that would riot over game related issues or travel to a fanfest that's held in ICELAND.
Ingame down time is the vital ingredient to turning players into friends.